Modifying/Updating Signs

[joseph1723]

What's the most popular way your state DOT uses to modify or update the words/shields on their signs?

Over here in Ontario I've seen MTO use a few different ways:

The most popular way that I've seen used is to apply the updated lettering/shields on a small greenout plate and then rivet the plate on to the sign:


Here's the same sign in 1989 before the word "lanes" was greened out on the express side and replaced with "collectrices" on the collector side.

(from vintagekingshighways.com) A sheet of greenout also blew off the sign between 1989 and 2009.

Another popular way here is to cover the entire BGS with overlay plates that has the new message on it. I usually see MTO do this with older BGSs.


The MTO also replaces half of the BGS sometimes with a new one but I think that only works in Ontario with our long and skinny BGSs since most of our BGSs are two part with the arrows on one side and the text on the other.

This isn't a modifed sign but you can see the gap between the text and the arrows on this BGS

Occasionally MTO will replace the entire BGS with a new one.

I don't think Ontario has ever used demountable copy on their signs before.

I'm interested in seeing how other DOTs/transport agencies modify the text on their signs and any other methods that they might use.

[Scott5114]

I really do like demountable copy. It works well in Kansas...  when a sign is rendered inapplicable due to construction, rather than covering it with a tarp like many states do, they merely strip off the legend, leaving a blank sign. Kind of funny looking but more aesthetic.

In Oklahoma, most greenout is applied by means of adhesive stickers or tape. In the following picture, the contractor did not follow standards, so when ODOT came around to update the circle sign to the meat cleaver, the ends of the oval stuck out on either side. Unfortunately for ODOT, they didn't bring enough greenout! This sign stayed like this for only about a week, when it was fixed to its intended appearance. Eventually SH-74A was decommissioned and now this is just an empty patch of greenout.

[Ian]

It is kind of interesting to see patching jobs. It gives you a clue of what the sign once said or what road went where. When the Maine Turnpike had to update their I-495 signage to I-95, most of the I-495 shields were patched (even some of the standalones!) leaving 3di I-95 shields...

In this one there is a 3di I-95 shield covering I-495 and an I-295 covering I-95. You will also see that the "TO" above I-295 is patched, which is covering "NORTH"

[roadfro]

Nevada DOT usually uses a metal sheet of green out physically bolted onto the sign. If it's a small patch, like just changing a number, it might be done with an adhesive patch.

Sometimes, NDOT will cover the entire sign with overlay panels. This was done with several sign replacements in the Reno area (covering up a couple old non-reflective porcelains near downtown on I-80).

[hbelkins]

Kentucky doesn't use silk-screened or otherwise permanently applied lettering on guide signs, so greenout is not necessary. Kentucky's letters and route markers are riveted to the BGS.

If letters need to be changed, the old letters are removed and new ones are added.

[mightyace]

Kentucky doesn't use silk-screened or otherwise permanently applied lettering on guide signs, so greenout is not necessary. Kentucky's letters and route markers are riveted to the BGS.

If letters need to be changed, the old letters are removed and new ones are added.

From your description, I can see how riveted letters are less "permanent" than silk-screened letters.  However, isn't putting up greenout or an overlay panel less work and less costly?

(I'm asking because that's my intuitive thinking as I have no idea what any of this stuff costs.)

[hbelkins]

From your description, I can see how riveted letters are less "permanent" than silk-screened letters.  However, isn't putting up greenout or an overlay panel less work and less costly?

(I'm asking because that's my intuitive thinking as I have no idea what any of this stuff costs.)

I wouldn't think so. The letters themselves use much less materials than the letters on a big piece of greenout. And I'd think the time needed to rivet a few letters onto a sign vs. manufacturing a greenout with new text and then riveting it to the sign would be a wash.

[mightyace]

^^^

Thank you for answering the why you do it that way in Kentucky.  That answer makes sense and the method you described sound like it would use less material.

[roadfro]

Kentucky doesn't use silk-screened or otherwise permanently applied lettering on guide signs, so greenout is not necessary. Kentucky's letters and route markers are riveted to the BGS.

If letters need to be changed, the old letters are removed and new ones are added.

Drifting slightly OT with this question...

Demountable copy might use less sign material when modifying an existing sign, but it would seem to require much more material on a brand new sign (not to mention leaving holes in the main sign).  I can appreciate that demountable copy would be easy to change should the sign need revising, but a large majority of signs may never need a change in the legend. So, does Kentucky see other benefits to demountable copy?

[jdb1234]

Here's a green out sign from Alabama:

[Scott5114]

Demountable copy has other benefits, however–rather than custom manufacturing vinyl lettering every time you need a new sign, you can prefab a whole bunch of letters and keep them in inventory as necessary. Mass-production makes it cheaper. Also, it keeps signs consistent by making them all have the same size legends.

[J N Winkler]

Kansas DOT no longer uses demountable copy on new freeway guide signs and the traffic engineering standard plan sheets which gave details for demountable copy have been cancelled.

In regards to the question of revising sign messages, other factors to consider are whether the revision is temporary or permanent, and also whether it is to be carried out in the field or shop.  Caltrans has traditionally deprecated carrying out permanent message revisions in the field because it is too difficult to get high-quality results which won't come unstuck at some future point.  (In Caltrans' case, I suspect this is an example of learning from past "covered shields" mistakes.)  Taking a sign down to work on it in the shop also allows it to be cleaned before it is re-erected, and that can tilt the economic argument in favor of sheeting overlays since one can then be sure that the sheeting types will match and that the film will adhere to a clean surface.

Another common problem is obtaining the correct spacing between letters.  This can be somewhat easier to do with direct-applied copy, especially if the sign is fabricated in such a way that the letters are cut out of transparent green film which is then applied to white retroreflective sheeting.  This is sometimes done for locations prone to vandalism where the expectation is that vandals would lift white letters off green background and cutting the letters out of the background leaves nothing for them to rip off.  Even for conventional direct-applied copy (letters cut out of white sheeting and then stuck on a green background), I think there is more scope for using adhesive films to position letter tiles correctly and obtain both correct spacing and vertical alignment by "butting" the tiles against each other.

[joseph1723]

I like how demountable copy gives a cleaner appearance when changing the sign message as opposed to our greenout plates which in my opinion,  looks really sloppy when they don't match the green properly to the sign. Our greenout plates also occasionally will fall off the sign as seen in my first picture. I think MTO uses vinyl lettering for the legend on our signs but I'm not quite sure about that yet. I kind of like the full BGS greenout plates that we use as long MTO sizes the panels properly to prevent this from happening:  


As for temporary signage changes I've seen MTO cover up the sign with a black tarp, or sometimes they will temporarily paste a orange "CLOSED" strip on the sign:


Or change the BGS to a temporary big orange sign and remove the down arrow tabs:


Or they might just white out a part of the sign:

[Michael]

^^ I've seen something like #2 in Syracuse when the I-690 West to I-81 South ramp was closed.  I think I remember seeing something like #4 in Pennsylvania.  The only times I've seen a BOS (big orange sign ) were stand-alone signs at the beginning of a major construction project.

EDIT: This is my 300^th post!

[WillWeaverRVA]

Or change the BGS to a temporary big orange sign and remove the down arrow tabs:

Fairly sure Caltrans did this in San Francisco on I-80(?) for a while.

[roadfro]

As for temporary signage changes I've seen MTO cover up the sign with a black tarp, or sometimes they will temporarily paste a orange "CLOSED" strip on the sign:

Or change the BGS to a temporary big orange sign and remove the down arrow tabs:

Or they might just white out a part of the sign:

[[See above for signs]]

NDOT uses these types of temporary sign modifications during construction projects. The "closed" plate or blank plate covering an arrow/legend is fairly popular. NDOT occasionally uses temporary BOSs, but these are typically pole mounted and not overhead.

They did use an overhead sign in Reno-Sparks during the Spaghetti Bowl reconstruction a few years ago. Westbound I-80 had a BOS with legend "Exit 15 / US 395 Use / Right Lane" (AARoads photo). At the time the temporary sign was installed, there was no viable location to pole mount a BOS sign near the exit and the permanent signing structures hadn't been installed.

[corco]

For closed exits, my favorite was WyDOT's work on I-80 in Cheyenne this past summer when they were re-doing the Lincolnway interchange

[Scott5114]

That's ridiculous. And that 30 shield looks grotesque too.

[TheStranger]

Fairly sure Caltrans did this in San Francisco on I-80(?) for a while.

Yep, I-80 westbound at the end of the Bay Bridge's upper deck.

[mightyace]

Fairly sure Caltrans did this in San Francisco on I-80(?) for a while.

Yep, I-80 westbound at the end of the Bay Bridge's upper deck.

Were the BOSs up in June 2000?  I have some vague memories of seeing them there.

[TheStranger]

Fairly sure Caltrans did this in San Francisco on I-80(?) for a while.

Yep, I-80 westbound at the end of the Bay Bridge's upper deck.

Were the BOSs up in June 2000?  I have some vague memories of seeing them there.

I remember them up a year or two ago actually, more recent than 2000 for sure...right at the 5th Street interchange which was being reconstructed at the time (the original access point for the bridge when US 40 and 50 ran through the South of Market neighborhood).