ACCESS Oklahoma

[Scott5114]

Maybe they shouldn't have (re)elected pro-turnpike politicians if they didn't want turnpikes.

[Bobby5280]

If the City of Norman chooses to request frontage roads along their portion of the East-West Connector, then OTA will purchase the right-of-way and build the frontage roads as part of the turnpike construction projects.

The last time I checked the ACCESS Oklahoma webs site, the map of the East-West Connector turnpike had frontage roads flanking it from S Western Avenue (on the West outskirts of Moore & Norman) through town and East out to S Douglas Blvd/48th Ave SE.

It's also a little disappointing to hear OTA is going to put the 5-level stack interchange with I-35 on the back burner -adding flyover ramps later in piece-meal fashion in response to traffic needs. I could tell that guy if those continuous frontage roads are built alongside the East-West Connector turnpike it will spur a great deal of new development in that area. It's not going to work so well for surface street traffic in that area if the interchange is stuck in a volleyball configuration for a long time.

[Plutonic Panda]

If the City of Norman chooses to request frontage roads along their portion of the East-West Connector, then OTA will purchase the right-of-way and build the frontage roads as part of the turnpike construction projects.

The last time I checked the ACCESS Oklahoma webs site, the map of the East-West Connector turnpike had frontage roads flanking it from S Western Avenue (on the West outskirts of Moore & Norman) through town and East out to S Douglas Blvd/48th Ave SE.

It's also a little disappointing to hear OTA is going to put the 5-level stack interchange with I-35 on the back burner -adding flyover ramps later in piece-meal fashion in response to traffic needs. I could tell that guy if those continuous frontage roads are built alongside the East-West Connector turnpike it will spur a great deal of new development in that area. It's not going to work so well for surface street traffic in that area if the interchange is stuck in a volleyball configuration for a long time.

Where did you hear that? I was told the interchange will be constructed at once along with the connector.

[Bobby5280]

The comments from an OTA spokesman stating the 5-level stack interchange would be built piece-meal style came from the article you linked a few posts earlier:
https://okcfox.com/news/local/broken-promises-residents-demonstrate-against-ota-demand-resolution-against-turnpikes#

The I-35 and East-West Connector interchange is anticipated to resemble the John Kilpatrick Turnpike and SH-74 interchange. Once design is further along we will know exactly what the footprint will be. As traffic demand grows, the interchange ultimately could be built out to a five-level interchange like what you see in the Dallas metro area.

That sure sounds like a volleyball interchange at first with ramps added one at a time over a long period of time.

[Plutonic Panda]

Figures

[rte66man]

If they do build frontage roads, they should imitate the Texas model as it relates to entrance and exit ramps. From the main lanes, have the exit ramp BEFORE the entrance ramp. This moves any weaving to the frontage road plus it gives enough space for traffic to move to the right to turn at the traffic signal for the cross street. For an example of how NOT to do it, look at the Kilpatrick between May and Western. A freaking nightmare.

[Plutonic Panda]

If they do build frontage roads, they should imitate the Texas model as it relates to entrance and exit ramps. From the main lanes, have the exit ramp BEFORE the entrance ramp. This moves any weaving to the frontage road plus it gives enough space for traffic to move to the right to turn at the traffic signal for the cross street. For an example of how NOT to do it, look at the Kilpatrick between May and Western. A freaking nightmare.

They are going to pilot this exact thing at one exit on the Kilpatrick Turnpike. Hopefully that leads to them converting all of the exits like that and ODOT follows.

[Great Lakes Roads]

https://www.koco.com/article/cleveland-county-turnpikes-will-be-built-ota/61999067

City of Norman: Sorry OTA, but since we don't want frontage roads along the East-West Connector, we'll not work with you!
OTA: We'll build it no matter what!

"While the OTA was prepared to commit many tens of millions of dollars to design and build what would become City of Norman infrastructure, OTA respects the Norman City Council's decision to reject the proposed resolution requesting that the Authority include frontage roads, pedestrian facilities, local road widenings and numerous interchanges as part of the design. OTA will complete is engineering plans for the East-West Connector without these amenities within Norman's city limits."

[Plutonic Panda]

Congrats on Norman loosing out in millions of dollars of economic development.

[Bobby5280]

Lawmakers at the City of Norman must be eating stupid pills by the fistful.

Indian Hills Road would still end up functioning as a partial frontage road for the new turnpike. However, the lack of dual frontage roads could translate into OTA building fewer turnpike exits along the way. And that would equal less potential for commercial and residential development along Indian Hills Road.

The situation might even mean the East-West Connector turnpike may not have a direct interchange with I-35 at all. Elsewhere in the nation there are multiple examples of "free" Interstates that cross tolled Interstates and have no system interchange between the two.

Having something like a 5-level Texas-style directional stack interchange depends in part on continuous frontage roads running parallel with both crossing super highways. The existing I-35/Indian Hills Road interchange is kind of a mess. A cheaper cloverleaf interchange sure as hell would not work there. I can definitely see the possibility of OTA merely flying the new turnpike over that spot with no connections to I-35 at all just to spare themselves a whole lot of headaches with the City of Norman.

[Scott5114]

Lawmakers at the City of Norman must be eating stupid pills by the fistful.

Just local politics—the affected landowners can't get the state to back off (because the state straight up does not care), so they've been harping on the city council to do something about it. The city council couldn't vote yes on this proposal without looking like they were blowing off the anti-turnpike constituents.

There are a fair number of anti-turnpike folks in Norman that live nowhere near the proposed toll roads. I used to drive past a house on Boyd just east of 12th Ave SE with an anti-turnpike sign out front. I'm not sure whether these people are upset about it for environmental reasons, because they hate to see the "little guy" lose, or what.

[Bobby5280]

I hope the OTA is able to build out the East-West Connector Turnpike as originally designed, with dual frontage roads parallel to the turnpike. Such a thing would be greatly beneficial to both Norman and Moore. I'm sure business would boom along the turnpike frontage. Home values and home sales would improve in the areas near the highway.

There would be considerably less benefit to Moore and Norman if the turnpike had a minimal number of exits, no flanking frontage roads and possibly no direct interchange with I-35. The Northeast US has multiple examples of this sort of thing. Motorists traveling through the area will not be as likely to get off the turnpike and visit any businesses in that area if they can't do so easily. Frontage roads make it easier to get off and back on to a turnpike. If the East West Connector is built more like a turnpike cutting through Pennsylvania motorists will be more likely to not stop and just keep driving.

[Scott5114]

I can't imagine the east-west turnpike will have all that much long-distance traffic on it, especially if the Kickapoo gets built all the way out to Purcell as planned.

[okroads]

There are a fair number of anti-turnpike folks in Norman that live nowhere near the proposed toll roads. I used to drive past a house on Boyd just east of 12th Ave SE with an anti-turnpike sign out front. I'm not sure whether these people are upset about it for environmental reasons, because they hate to see the "little guy" lose, or what.

For a while, there was an anti turnpike sign on McGee just north of Highway 9, which is a good 5-10 miles from any proposed route of the East-West Connector or Kickapoo extension. I think it's mainly the political climate in Norman.

[Scott5114]

I think it's mainly the political climate in Norman.

You raise a good point. Wonder how much of it is desperately trying to poke Stitt in the eye. It's hard to find any other tangible way to do so, given the size of his party's majority statewide.

[Bobby5280]

I can't imagine the east-west turnpike will have all that much long-distance traffic on it, especially if the Kickapoo gets built all the way out to Purcell as planned.

Motorists coming up from places like Lawton, Wichita Falls and even Southern parts of the OKC metro driving to Tulsa and points farther Northeast would probably use the East-West Connector. I certainly wish the thing already existed during my last drive up to Tulsa recently. I-44 had at least 3 serious traffic bottlenecks going on within OKC.

For a while, there was an anti turnpike sign on McGee just north of Highway 9, which is a good 5-10 miles from any proposed route of the East-West Connector or Kickapoo extension. I think it's mainly the political climate in Norman.

I think it's more of this "new urbanism" crap. The hardcore fans of that stuff want to convert freeways and toll roads into at-grade boulevards and give those surface streets "road diets." It doesn't matter how busy the highway is or how important it might be for moving commerce. They view every super highway as a "traffic sewer". A growing number of urban planners are into that ideology.

Meanwhile a bunch of the high brow types advocating for this stuff are hypocrites. They don't practice what they preach. They drive personal vehicles just like most other people. They're not going to take a city bus with people too poor to afford using a motor vehicle. And that's if they even live close enough to town to have access to bus routes.

Austin is a good example of this widespread hypocrisy. The new urbanists make every attempt to block highways like I-35 from being widened. But does anyone seriously think rich people living in suburbs like Bee Cave would ride a city bus or light rail train to downtown Austin? No, they want all the common people to do that while they keep driving their European sedans. Super highways in that area end up getting expanded and extended anyway. If Bee Cave keeps growing it will need a super highway.

Likewise the same is true for Norman and Moore. The East-West Connector is a good idea. I think ODOT will be forced to expand I-35 from a 3x3 configuration to 4x4 or even 5x5 thru Norman and Moore.

[SoonerCowboy]

Even if the east-west connector has limited exits it will be used by many. I do not see any way that it would not connect with I-35 but maybe some of the proposed exits east of I-35. As Bobby had stated, people coming up from Lawton or Wichita Falls would use it to bypass OKC to get to points east. I would use it to go to Riverwind, Newcastle, and Shawnee casinos on the same day. 

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm not sure if this is part of the access Oklahoma project or not, But the SH-66 bridge over I-44 will be closed for up to a year for widening and reconstruction: https://kfor.com/news/local/i-44-turner-turnpike-widening-project-on-sh-66-in-wellston-begins-sept-3/

[Plutonic Panda]

The more I read about the frontage road situation, The more it seems like it comes down to whether or not the OTA Wants to build them and bear the responsibility of maintaining them versus turning the frontage roads over to the city of Norman after they complete them. Normally, that's how it would work. Similar to how the frontage roads Along the turnpike are maintained by the city of OKC.

It seems like they still may build these roads if they really want to. They would just be the responsibility of maintaining them in the future, as opposed to handing them off to the city of Norman, who signed a decree saying they refused to work with the OTA at all.

I don't know much about the inner workings of Norman as I've never paid too much attention to it. But it seems like a city that really doesn't understand what it wants to be. I mean, they've had some really cool proposed developments at campus corner that were shot down by NIMBYs. Norman is just a weird town.

[Bobby5280]

I'm not sure if this is part of the access Oklahoma project or not, But the SH-66 bridge over I-44 will be closed for up to a year for widening and reconstruction: https://kfor.com/news/local/i-44-turner-turnpike-widening-project-on-sh-66-in-wellston-begins-sept-3/

Actually OK-66 runs underneath the Turner Turnpike in that location. The I-44 bridges going over the highway will be replaced with wider structures to accommodate the future 3x3 lanes configuration. I don't remember if new exit ramps are going to be built there too.

I guess ODOT and OTA are closing that portion of OK-66 in order for construction to proceed at a faster pace. They'll probably have to do all sorts of lane shifts with I-44 traffic anyway.

As far as I can tell the OTA is doing the I-44 widening project between Tulsa and OKC in a linear manner, working East to West (from Tulsa towards OKC). Several miles worth of construction is in progress from the current end of completed 3x3 highway on over to Bristow.

It seems like they still may build these roads if they really want to. They would just be the responsibility of maintaining them in the future, as opposed to handing them off to the city of Norman, who signed a decree saying they refused to work with the OTA at all.

If the OTA is stuck with maintaining those frontage roads it would probably lead to higher tolls on the finished turnpike.

I think it would be just as easy for the OTA to redesign the turnpike where Indian Hills Road remains in its current 2-lane, 2-way configuration. The turnpike would run parallel to it, probably in as narrow a design as possible while still maintaining Interstate standards. The road might feel kind of like the Westpark Tollway in Houston.

The downside to not having dual frontage roads flanking the turnpike is the entrance and exit ramps could end up being a mixed bag of partial interchanges. Various slip ramps and loop ramps would be built just wherever they could fit.

On top of that, it would be likely traffic levels on Indian Hills Road would increase very dramatically. The City of Norman would end up having to widen the 2-lane road to a 4-lane or even 6-lane surface arterial anyway. And they would have to foot the bill for that construction, not OTA. I think it would be an easier and cheaper deal for Norman to let OTA build the frontage roads and then take over maintenance responsibilities afterward.

[Great Lakes Roads]

I'm not sure if this is part of the access Oklahoma project or not, But the SH-66 bridge over I-44 will be closed for up to a year for widening and reconstruction: https://kfor.com/news/local/i-44-turner-turnpike-widening-project-on-sh-66-in-wellston-begins-sept-3/

Yes, this project is part of the ACCESS Oklahoma program. OTA said that this bridge over SH-66 in Wellston is "one of the most complicated to replace".

[Scott5114]

Motorists coming up from places like Lawton, Wichita Falls and even Southern parts of the OKC metro driving to Tulsa and points farther Northeast would probably use the East-West Connector

Sure, but you have to remember that I-44 south of OKC is Oklahoma's least traveled Interstate highway. So that's not going to be a substantial number of people. And yes, there will probably be some folks from Newcastle or wherever using it as a bypass.

But the point I'm getting at is that most of the people on this toll road will be local to the OKC area, and thus aren't likely to get off the highway, get gas, and get back on. So Norman is not really losing an appreciable amount of sales tax money if they have fewer access points to this particular road.

Plus, if they build it directly on top of Indian Hills Road, anything on the north side of it would be in Moore city limits anyway!

[Scott5114]

I think it's more of this "new urbanism" crap.

Why would a new urbanist choose Norman to live in? The buses don't even run on Sundays!

[hotdogPi]

The buses don't even run on Sundays!

I would say this is quite common. Lowell's buses don't run on Sundays, either (although the commuter rail to Boston does). The Lawrence/Haverhill buses do, with only their higher-ridership routes running, but there was a period of about 2-3 years when they didn't run at all on Sundays.

[Bobby5280]

Plus, if they build it directly on top of Indian Hills Road, anything on the north side of it would be in Moore city limits anyway!

The way the map looks on the ACCESS Oklahoma web site the East-West Connector Turnpike main lanes would be built North of Indian Hills Road from the Canadian River to I-35. Indian Hills Road would be turned into a South side frontage road. Just East of I-35, past 24th Ave NW, the main lanes shift Southward to where Indian Hills Road would be the North side frontage road.

The shift is being done to avoid taking land from Belmar Golf Club and avoid clusters of industrial properties on the North side of the street. Frontage roads would continue East to the 48th Ave NE intersection and then dovetail into the turnpike main lanes after that. The next interchange to the East would be the Y interchange with the Kickapoo Turnpike extension.

Why would a new urbanist choose Norman to live in? The buses don't even run on Sundays!

Norman is a college town. Besides, Oklahoma does have a decent number of "progressive" residents. Maybe not enough to make differences in big elections. But they do end up in positions like urban planning.

Yes, this project is part of the ACCESS Oklahoma program. OTA said that this bridge over SH-66 in Wellston is "one of the most complicated to replace."

Yeah, it's quite a bridge structure. If you're driving on OK-66 under the turnpike it almost feels like a tunnel.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6809802,-97.0466014,3a,75y,263.24h,83.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sK8desENnz-S8Jzi8ze2uVA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&coh=205409&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MDgyOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D