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At-grade intersections on Interstates in Texas

Started by Anthony_JK, April 22, 2015, 09:12:28 PM

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Scott5114

Quote from: kkt on June 22, 2015, 04:43:07 PM
Quote from: mwb1848 on June 22, 2015, 04:13:39 PM
Quote from: Sykotyk on June 20, 2015, 05:47:39 PM
Quote from: vtk on June 19, 2015, 07:26:48 PM
Quote from: ARMOURERERIC on June 19, 2015, 03:39:11 PM
True, but if you are eastbound on 10 and you see a vehicle with their left signal on for a few miles in advance, won't you just ignore it and assume they are a retiree for AZ.

How much driving experience do you have? Watching out for other drivers doing unexpected things is part of the task of driving on any road. You're less likely to encounter someone using one of these at-grades on an Interstate than any number of surprising and possibly more dangerous manoeuvres anywhere else.

I think there's more utilization of illegal crossovers on a daily basis by traffic volume than there is usage of these at-grade intersections in West Texas.
Bingo. The traffic count to consider isn't the one on I-10, it's the one on the unpaved roads that intersect it at these at-grade crossings. I've driven the stretch of I-10 in West Texas more times that I care to count over the last ten years and have NEVER seen them used.

Then they don't need to exist, do they?

How much would an interstate minimum deceleration and acceleration lane for a right-on, right-off driveway access cost?
North of $100,000 a piece, I'm sure. Not worth the money for how little they're used.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef


Sykotyk

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2015, 07:39:29 PM
Quote from: kkt on June 22, 2015, 04:43:07 PM
Quote from: mwb1848 on June 22, 2015, 04:13:39 PM
Quote from: Sykotyk on June 20, 2015, 05:47:39 PM
Quote from: vtk on June 19, 2015, 07:26:48 PM
Quote from: ARMOURERERIC on June 19, 2015, 03:39:11 PM
True, but if you are eastbound on 10 and you see a vehicle with their left signal on for a few miles in advance, won't you just ignore it and assume they are a retiree for AZ.

How much driving experience do you have? Watching out for other drivers doing unexpected things is part of the task of driving on any road. You're less likely to encounter someone using one of these at-grades on an Interstate than any number of surprising and possibly more dangerous manoeuvres anywhere else.

I think there's more utilization of illegal crossovers on a daily basis by traffic volume than there is usage of these at-grade intersections in West Texas.
Bingo. The traffic count to consider isn't the one on I-10, it's the one on the unpaved roads that intersect it at these at-grade crossings. I've driven the stretch of I-10 in West Texas more times that I care to count over the last ten years and have NEVER seen them used.

Then they don't need to exist, do they?

How much would an interstate minimum deceleration and acceleration lane for a right-on, right-off driveway access cost?
North of $100,000 a piece, I'm sure. Not worth the money for how little they're used.

Also, by building in the accel/decel lanes, you're 'legitimizing' the intersection for others to take. Generally, these are only there for ranch owners as they have no other access to their property. They are not generally through roads that any person can just take if they wanted.

Also, they aren't just RIRO, you are allowed to make a left and cross the other lanes of travel. For how little they are used, what Texas has done is by far the cheapest, easiest, and generally safest. A few signs, and that's it. And buying out the property owner, building frontage roads, overpasses, or underpasses, etc is overkill given how little these intersections are used.

ethanhopkin14

This whole thing is so silly.  I have driven this stretch of Interstate 10 several times, and most recently yesterday.  I would love for these intersections to be removed because it clearly violates the interstate standards which are a bible.  But also, we are talking 10 to 20 intersections, and each one is a dirt road leading to a locked gate.  Anyone who knows about large Texas ranches knows there are a lot of ranches no one lives on, and these are no exception.  So we are talking a remote dirt road here and there to a locked gate that goes to a ranch that maybe is used by the owner, or caretaker for mineral rights or just to check up on things maybe once a month at the most.  So yes it infuriates me to see a yellow diamond sign with a black + on it on an interstate, but I don't like the idea of the state wasting a bunch of money to build a frontage road to the next intersection (which might be 10 miles away or more) all for one dirt road here and there just to satisfy me and the other sticklers for the interstate rules either.  I would rather that money be used to bring another interstate to Austin.  Remember again we are talking about one of the most remote, sparsely populated places in the country.

kkt

Yeah, but I bet the frontage roads for all those ranch intersections together would only buy about one inch of new interstate for Austin.

iBallasticwolf2

How about we build dirt frontage roads to protect these drivers using the turns? It would be good for people going right in and right out. The left turns can stay the same.
Only two things are infinite in this world, stupidity, and I-75 construction

MaxConcrete

I drove on I-40 between the Amarillo and the New Mexico border on Saturday. I counted five fully-developed at-grade intersections around mile markers 8-12. By fully-developed, I mean paved, striped and signed. See the images below. Other at-grade intersections I have seen were more informal, unpaved and without full striping. But these intersections were like you would see on a non controlled access, four-lane divided highway.

The photo quality is marginal since they were taken at full speed. Grass was high outside the shoulder so it was not ideal for stopping and parking.

I was amazed by the concentration of wind turbines on the north side of I-40 west of Amarillo. From mile marker approx 10 to 50, there are continuous wind turbines multiple rows deep.





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intelati49

Quote from: MaxConcrete on July 14, 2015, 11:29:32 PM
I drove on I-40 between the Amarillo and the New Mexico border on Saturday. I counted five fully-developed at-grade intersections around mile markers 8-12. By fully-developed, I mean paved, striped and signed. See the images below. Other at-grade intersections I have seen were more informal, unpaved and without full striping. But these intersections were like you would see on a non controlled access, four-lane divided highway.

The photo quality is marginal since they were taken at full speed. Grass was high outside the shoulder so it was not ideal for stopping and parking.

I was amazed by the concentration of wind turbines on the north side of I-40 west of Amarillo. From mile marker approx 10 to 50, there are continuous wind turbines multiple rows deep.

img

img

img

Okay, that I have a problem with. If there is enough traffic to warrant paving, there should be an outer road. You just turned a freeway into an expressway.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: intelati49 on July 15, 2015, 04:51:16 AM
Quote from: MaxConcrete on July 14, 2015, 11:29:32 PM
I drove on I-40 between the Amarillo and the New Mexico border on Saturday. I counted five fully-developed at-grade intersections around mile markers 8-12. By fully-developed, I mean paved, striped and signed. See the images below. Other at-grade intersections I have seen were more informal, unpaved and without full striping. But these intersections were like you would see on a non controlled access, four-lane divided highway.

The photo quality is marginal since they were taken at full speed. Grass was high outside the shoulder so it was not ideal for stopping and parking.

I was amazed by the concentration of wind turbines on the north side of I-40 west of Amarillo. From mile marker approx 10 to 50, there are continuous wind turbines multiple rows deep.

img

img

img

Okay, that I have a problem with. If there is enough traffic to warrant paving, there should be an outer road. You just turned a freeway into an expressway.

I wonder if there really isn't enough traffic, but a paved surface is a lot easier to drive on, especially coming from a complete stop. 

They should probably put a turn lane/decal lane in there though, rather than a hard left turn from the left lane of the highway.

mwb1848

Quote from: intelati49 on July 15, 2015, 04:51:16 AM
Quote from: MaxConcrete on July 14, 2015, 11:29:32 PM
I drove on I-40 between the Amarillo and the New Mexico border on Saturday. I counted five fully-developed at-grade intersections around mile markers 8-12. By fully-developed, I mean paved, striped and signed. See the images below. Other at-grade intersections I have seen were more informal, unpaved and without full striping. But these intersections were like you would see on a non controlled access, four-lane divided highway.

The photo quality is marginal since they were taken at full speed. Grass was high outside the shoulder so it was not ideal for stopping and parking.

I was amazed by the concentration of wind turbines on the north side of I-40 west of Amarillo. From mile marker approx 10 to 50, there are continuous wind turbines multiple rows deep.

img

img

img

Okay, that I have a problem with. If there is enough traffic to warrant paving, there should be an outer road. You just turned a freeway into an expressway.

Agreed!! I have no problem at all with the occasional, barely-improved at-grade crossing on I-10 and I-20. But this is no longer an Interstate.

txstateends

Those 3 pix look no better, really, than US 87-US 287 between Amarillo and Dumas.  Yet, that stretch is not considered an interstate and the pictured parts of I-40 are.

Quote from: maxconcrete
I was amazed by the concentration of wind turbines on the north side of I-40 west of Amarillo. From mile marker approx 10 to 50, there are continuous wind turbines multiple rows deep.

I knew there had been several projects to add new turbines, but I didn't know it had gotten to the level you describe.  After the years I lived up there, I'd always wondered why there weren't plans *much* sooner to do wind power projects...goodness knows, there's enough wind up there to keep many in lights for a long time.
\/ \/ click for a bigger image \/ \/

dfwmapper

Quote from: iBallasticwolf2 on July 14, 2015, 10:25:21 AM
How about we build dirt frontage roads to protect these drivers using the turns? It would be good for people going right in and right out. The left turns can stay the same.
IIRC, TxDOT's design standards don't permit unpaved surfaces on state highways, including frontage roads.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 15, 2015, 06:22:08 AM
They should probably put a turn lane/decal lane in there though, rather than a hard left turn from the left lane of the highway.
They don't want to encourage normal drivers to use them because then it really would start to become a safety issue.

iBallasticwolf2

It could be possible to make paved turn lanes but have no decal or lane marking change.
Only two things are infinite in this world, stupidity, and I-75 construction

Truvelo

Traffic turning left would most likely pull onto the shoulder and wait for a gap in the traffic before turning across both lanes. It would be a lot safer than coming to a halt in the fast lane.
Speed limits limit life

Grzrd

Quote from: vtk on May 11, 2015, 10:04:11 PM
what was the projected traffic count for 20 years in the future when the highway was designed 50+ years ago? Some people on the forum seem to imagine those at-grade crossings were approved and built yesterday. Are they problematic today? Probably not, or there would be a whole thread here about the constant accidents. They certainly weren't problematic within a couple decades of the highway's construction.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 14, 2015, 12:00:11 AM
we are talking 10 to 20 intersections, and each one is a dirt road leading to a locked gate.  Anyone who knows about large Texas ranches knows there are a lot of ranches no one lives on, and these are no exception.  So we are talking a remote dirt road here and there to a locked gate that goes to a ranch that maybe is used by the owner, or caretaker for mineral rights or just to check up on things maybe once a month at the most.
Quote from: Grzrd on July 30, 2015, 07:46:29 PM
The Texas Transportation Commission has posted a July 29 TxDOT Interstate Corridor Planning - Prioritization of Corridor Studies presentation ... (p.5/13 of pdf) .... The anticipated congestion, combined with possible rebuilding of much of the system that is reaching the end of its expected service life (p. 8/13 of pdf), suggests that Texas will have to spend a lot of money over the next 25 years.
(bottom quote from Texas thread)

In the not too distant future, Texas may have to rebuild many of the sections of interstates that currently have the at-grades, and take into account anticipated traffic counts.  The below snips compare west Texas congestion in 2013 to west Texas estimated congestion in 2040:




In looking at projected traffic flows along I-10 and I-40, at what point, if any, would TxDOT deem it necessary to upgrade at least some of the at-grades for safety reasons (at initial glance I-10 east of the I-20 interchange seems like it could keep the at-grades)?

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: Grzrd on August 02, 2015, 11:16:29 AM
Quote from: vtk on May 11, 2015, 10:04:11 PM
what was the projected traffic count for 20 years in the future when the highway was designed 50+ years ago? Some people on the forum seem to imagine those at-grade crossings were approved and built yesterday. Are they problematic today? Probably not, or there would be a whole thread here about the constant accidents. They certainly weren't problematic within a couple decades of the highway's construction.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 14, 2015, 12:00:11 AM
we are talking 10 to 20 intersections, and each one is a dirt road leading to a locked gate.  Anyone who knows about large Texas ranches knows there are a lot of ranches no one lives on, and these are no exception.  So we are talking a remote dirt road here and there to a locked gate that goes to a ranch that maybe is used by the owner, or caretaker for mineral rights or just to check up on things maybe once a month at the most.
Quote from: Grzrd on July 30, 2015, 07:46:29 PM
The Texas Transportation Commission has posted a July 29 TxDOT Interstate Corridor Planning - Prioritization of Corridor Studies presentation ... (p.5/13 of pdf) .... The anticipated congestion, combined with possible rebuilding of much of the system that is reaching the end of its expected service life (p. 8/13 of pdf), suggests that Texas will have to spend a lot of money over the next 25 years.
(bottom quote from Texas thread)

In the not too distant future, Texas may have to rebuild many of the sections of interstates that currently have the at-grades, and take into account anticipated traffic counts.  The below snips compare west Texas congestion in 2013 to west Texas estimated congestion in 2040:




In looking at projected traffic flows along I-10 and I-40, at what point, if any, would TxDOT deem it necessary to upgrade at least some of the at-grades for safety reasons (at initial glance I-10 east of the I-20 interchange seems like it could keep the at-grades)?

The funny thing is, the at-grade intersections on Interstate 10 start west of Van Horn, some 40 or so miles west of the I-10, I-20 split.  So, ironically, where the traffic is the lightest on I-10, there are no at-grade intersections.  But the ones on the west side would have to be removed if traffic continues to get worse, I agree.

wxfree

The Texas Rural Transportation Plan of 2012 lists priorities and associated ranks for rural highway projects.  It includes elimination of several at-grade intersections in Hudspeth County.  Apparently, TxDOT considers the situation undesirable and wants to correct it.  The rankings for the projects are in the 460 to 480 range.  There appear to be fewer than 700 rankings given, so it's a moderate to low priority at this time.

http://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/tpp/rural_2035/report/0512/trtp_appendix_e_district.pdf.pdf

The projects are listed by district, and districts are listed alphabetically.  This is in the El Paso district.
I'd like to buy a vowel, Alex.  What is E?

US 41

#66
I saw some of these at grades on I-10 last month on my way to Presidio from El Paso. Even though the speed limit is 80 I didn't really see a problem with them. They do sign that there is a crossroads ahead. Keep in mind that there are at grades on lots of roads in Texas that have 75 mph speed limits. As long as you use a turn signal and give plenty of warning that you will be turning you should be fine.

Here is a photo of one of the crossroads signs I took while driving on eastbound I-10 shortly after going through an internal customs checkpoint.



EDIT: I totally forgot about the at grades on I-40 west of Amarillo. Now that I saw the pictures I remember seeing those on my trip as well. I didn't take any pictures of them.
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The Ghostbuster

Somehow, I doubt the at-grades will ever be removed. Interstate Standards be damned!

Anthony_JK

Quote from: MaxConcrete on July 14, 2015, 11:29:32 PM
I drove on I-40 between the Amarillo and the New Mexico border on Saturday. I counted five fully-developed at-grade intersections around mile markers 8-12. By fully-developed, I mean paved, striped and signed. See the images below. Other at-grade intersections I have seen were more informal, unpaved and without full striping. But these intersections were like you would see on a non controlled access, four-lane divided highway.

The photo quality is marginal since they were taken at full speed. Grass was high outside the shoulder so it was not ideal for stopping and parking.

I was amazed by the concentration of wind turbines on the north side of I-40 west of Amarillo. From mile marker approx 10 to 50, there are continuous wind turbines multiple rows deep.


Yeah..that's not acceptable for me. Now you are on an expressway, not a freeway. At the very least, make them jughandles so that there is some flexibility for left-turning traffic, or add deceleration lanes outside of the mainlaines.

ethanhopkin14

Its funny to me that a state that prides themselves on their massive use of service roads (Texas) can't just build a service road out where it's needed, so it causes a violation in the Interstate Highway System.

Avalanchez71

I have never seen these roads used ever.  Has anyone actually seen anyone use these?  I see no problem at all with them.  These were approved long ago and are a part of the interstate system.  If I had time to dig up the records I would probably put in a public records request to see the accident rate at these intersections.

If this was an issue it would be dealt with.

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on August 05, 2016, 01:43:04 PM
I have never seen these roads used ever.  Has anyone actually seen anyone use these?  I see no problem at all with them.  These were approved long ago and are a part of the interstate system.  If I had time to dig up the records I would probably put in a public records request to see the accident rate at these intersections.

If this was an issue it would be dealt with.


I go back and forth with this one.  Sometimes it infuriates me to no end, and then other times I say the same thing, that maybe these roads get used once or twice a year.  obviously its not enough to build another road, but it does make me mad because the one time it is used, someone slows to a 20 mph right hand turn on a "freeway" with an 80 mph speed limit. 

Brian556

It is incredibly dangerous to allow left turns from an interstate with no turn bay. If they were to prohibit left or U-turns, and do Jersey lefts (with short gravel exit ramps) at these, I might be more ok with them.

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: Brian556 on August 05, 2016, 03:00:35 PM
It is incredibly dangerous to allow left turns from an interstate with no turn bay. If they were to prohibit left or U-turns, and do Jersey lefts (with short gravel exit ramps) at these, I might be more ok with them.

I would be more okay with gradual right in, right outs.  I mean there is a long way between exits out there, but not that long.  Texas is known to have more exits.

sparker

A possibility for dealing with the safety issues would be to construct a series of left and/or right turn lanes next to the through lanes -- but construct them with chip seal (more than adequate if only used sporadically), and use dashed double yellow lines (inner) and dashed white lines (outer) to delineate the turn lanes.  The difference in texture and basic road noise would discourage through traffic from using the lanes; they could be marked by signage as "Private Ranch Access Only" with arrows pointing down diagonally to the turn lanes.  That would get whatever turning movements that occurred off the main roadway with relatively minimal expense.  I'd also repave the median crossings on I-40 with chip seal to achieve the same result.  Doesn't solve the "expressway vs. freeway" argument, but this is simply a safety measure.



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