US 281 in San Antonio

[msubulldog]

Why not project I-37 from its current northern terminus at I-35 near downtown along 281 as far as Loop 1604?

[sprjus4]

The original interstate plan called for Interstate 37 to run between Downtown Corpus Christi to Downtown San Antonio at I-35, and the piece linking to I-35 was completed in 1971.

The projects north of there for relocating US-281 onto a freeway facility were separate urban freeway projects not apart of the I-37 system, and were built and funded by the state. The freeway was constructed between 1978 and 1990 from south (I-35) to north (Loop 1604). The ongoing project will extend the freeway an additional 8 miles northward.

The reason why it was never immediately signed I-37 is because it was not built as apart of I-37, and ever since there had been no real official talks or active interest as far as I'm aware to extend it, and that's how it still remains today.

I could see it happening if there was ever interest and it was pursued, though in today's day and age, I'm sure somewhere on the freeway there's a segment that doesn't meet interstate standards and the FHWA won't allow it.

[Bobby5280]

Texas has a lot of freeways signed only as US Highways or State Highways. That philosophy is not (and SHOULD NOT) change as long as the federal government wants to be a cheapskate, absentee, A-Hole, B!+c# when it comes to funding highway projects that affect the overall national system. Right now the United States hopelessly SUCKS at this infrastructure thing. We're nowhere where we were in the 1960's and 1970's when were building 1000 or more miles of new freeway per year, at a 90/10 fed/state funding percentage.

If Texas has to pony up all the dollars to build a freeway the highway should only ever carry a Texas state route marker on it. If the feds want one of their labels (like an Interstate marker) applied to it then they need to pony up the bucks and PAY FOR IT.

With that being said, US-281 going North out of San Antonio is probably going to remain as US-281 for the foreseeable future. Even if an Interstate label could be applied to the road it would be more logical to call that route "I-33." I mean, really, they could convert US-281 to Interstate quality from San Antonio clear up to Wichita Falls. That would provide a very effective rural bypass of the highly populated Austin and DFW metro areas. In the somewhat near term I expect US-281 to get upgraded to a freeway up to the US-290 corridor to augment East-West traffic on the US-290 corridor -something that could turn into another Interstate-quality corridor. It could be called a second and much longer "I-12" than the one in Louisiana. But given the feds' attitude the highway will more likely just remain being called US-290. In the long term I can see US-281 from San Antonio being extended up to meet the tail end of I-44 in Wichita Falls.

[Rothman]

You'd be surprised how much federal money is spent on state and local routes.

Then again, Texas recently gambled by leaving $1 billion in fed funds on the table that was almost wiped out by a legislated recission.  Lucky for them, the recission was repealed.  Still, it makes you wonder if some gross mismanagement is going on down there.

[Bobby5280]

I don't doubt there's still a lot of federal money being spent on state and local routes. But it sure isn't the 90/10 split that it used to be 30+ years ago. Yet the federal government is the one who keeps mandating ever more increasingly expensive standards on how highways and freeways are to be built. Meanwhile they decreased funding levels rather than raise them in proportion to those higher building/safety standards.

So right now individual states are pretty much on their own for their highway infrastructure needs. Whatever the feds are providing in terms of funding is being eaten up rapidly and leaving a big gap for states to fill. A huge, prosperous and highly populated state like Texas may manage "okay" with that. But smaller states like nearby Oklahoma end up struggling a whole lot worse with the situation. If the feds want to keep up with this charade for too many more years I will not be surprised to see toll gates erected on ordinary city streets. The RIFD technology is already there to do it.

[Rothman]

Actually, the 90/10 split for interstates is still alive and well through the National Highway Performance Program and, to a lesser extent, the Highway Safety Improvement Program.  This has been clarified multiple times on this forum and I am amazed there is still confusion over it.

That said, I should look up funding levels over the years.  There have been modest increases over the last 15 years.  Still, the major change with MAP-21 that was carried forward is that more federal funding was directed towards the NHS.  I am not sure how intentional that was, but that's been the effect.

(Pre-MAP 21, the 90/10 split was available through Interstate Maintenance funding).

[texaskdog]

I'd like to see it extended all the way to Wichita Falls to get some traffic off I-35.  Currently with backroads NB its 11 miles but :50 longer, SB it's 9 miles and :33 longer, and this in the middle of the day, not rush hour.   With a freeway through there, missing Austin, Fort Worth, and Waco it would be a great alternative.

[armadillo speedbump]

Does the 281 slalom north of downtown SA even meet current interstate standards?  At the speed limit it is one of the most white knuckle drives in Texas.

[sprjus4]

All the speed limit it is one of the most white knuckle drives in Texas.

That stretch definitely caught me off guard the first time I drove it. 65 mph on an freeway with countless sharp curves, 4 lanes of traffic in one direction with almost no room for error, and at least two small, hard to see advisory speed 50 mph signs.

Should be posted at a maximum of 60 mph IMO.

Wonder how many sideswipes have occurred on that stretch.

[In_Correct]

If Texas builds an Interstate Quality Road (With Frontage Roads) and all these upgrades they do by them selves, TX DOT Needs to have some impressive sign resembling the Interstate sign.

It would be nice, even by themselves, upgrade U.S. 281 to Wichita Falls. These alternate routes such as an upgraded U.S. 281 would be just as good as Interstate 35. Traffic should just take these alternate routes instead of Interstate 35 being upgraded to endless double deck lanes.

[sprjus4]

If Texas builds an Interstate Quality Road (With Frontage Roads) and all these upgrades they do by them selves, TX DOT Needs to have some impressive sign resembling the Interstate sign.

It would be nice, even by themselves, upgrade U.S. 281 to Wichita Falls. These alternate routes such as an upgraded U.S. 281 would be just as good as Interstate 35. Traffic should just take these alternate routes instead of Interstate 35 being upgraded to endless double deck lanes.

They built TX-130 and I-35 through Austin is still a mess. If you're referring to the issues in Austin, the majority of the problem is local traffic, not thru traffic. Thru traffic already has an interstate-grade bypass of the city.

Taking TX-130 has shaved off at least an hour of travel time through the city when I've taken it, mainly at peak hours.

[Bobby5280]

There's no way residents in Austin would ever allow an update of I-35 to include elevated lanes. The $8 billion expansion project they're trying to fund would only add 2 additional HOV lanes in each direction. I-35 would be dug into a trench in the downtown area.

Regarding the TX-130 bypass of Austin, not all thru traffic takes it. Some people shunpike it to save a few dollars on the tolls. Although they could burn up more money than that idling away fuel in traffic jams along I-35.

Actually, the 90/10 split for interstates is still alive and well through the National Highway Performance Program and, to a lesser extent, the Highway Safety Improvement Program.  This has been clarified multiple times on this forum and I am amazed there is still confusion over it.

If the formula is still alive and well the feds must have a long list of exceptions for it. There's a couple safety projects along I-44 in Lawton that are getting nowhere because ODOT wants the city of Lawton to pay half the cost.

One of these projects involves adding an actual sidewalk to one of the two aging Gore Blvd bridges over I-44 at that outdated, traffic bottle-neck of an exit. Currently pedestrians have to cross the bridges by walking along a minimal right shoulder and street curb. Some people choose to just walk down and jay-walk across the Interstate main lanes rather than risk getting clipped by a side view mirror up on Gore Blvd. Unfortunately some of these people have been getting hit and even killed by vehicles on the Interstate. ODOT recently installed a taller chain link fence along SE Interstate drive in an attempt to prevent people from walking out onto the Interstate. But people are crouching under the fence at a couple street drainage spots. A couple mornings ago on my way into work I saw a pedestrian jay-walking I-44 right ahead of me in dense fog. I'm glad I wasn't driving with my head up my ass, otherwise I could have hit the guy.

Does the 281 slalom north of downtown SA even meet current interstate standards?  At the speed limit it is one of the most white knuckle drives in Texas.

Despite the relatively tight turns that freeway looks like it meets current Interstate standards. The lanes and shoulders look wide enough. Most on/off ramps look like they have adequate geometry. The only exception is Basse Road with those two tight 20mph cloverleaf loops. It looks like a fairly old interchange. It's kind of surprising it hasn't been updated considering all the high dollar properties, golf clubs and retail stores nearby. A SPUI might be the only alternative there; those cloverleaf loops can't get any bigger.

[texaskdog]

If Texas builds an Interstate Quality Road (With Frontage Roads) and all these upgrades they do by them selves, TX DOT Needs to have some impressive sign resembling the Interstate sign.

It would be nice, even by themselves, upgrade U.S. 281 to Wichita Falls. These alternate routes such as an upgraded U.S. 281 would be just as good as Interstate 35. Traffic should just take these alternate routes instead of Interstate 35 being upgraded to endless double deck lanes.

They built TX-130 and I-35 through Austin is still a mess. If you're referring to the issues in Austin, the majority of the problem is local traffic, not thru traffic. Thru traffic already has an interstate-grade bypass of the city.

Taking TX-130 has shaved off at least an hour of travel time through the city when I've taken it, mainly at peak hours.

Right, an extended 37/44 would be for long distance truckers not going to austin

[sprjus4]

Right, an extended 37/44 would be for long distance truckers not going to austin

TX-130 is a bypass of Austin for I-35 thru traffic.

[texaskdog]

Great but there are times when it is not quicker because they built it so far out.  Plus it costs $16 to take the whole route. 

[sprjus4]

Great but there are times when it is not quicker because they built it so far out.  Plus it costs $16 to take the whole route.

That's a rare day to have no traffic on I-35...

Any traffic jam on I-35, and TX-130 is usually the preferred route.

I've taken the route numerous times and have never had an issue paying the toll. It's relatively low considering it's almost 100 miles long, and the speed limit is 80 - 85 mph. Since I have out of state plates, the toll-by-plate rate is $19 one-way.

I've tried I-35 thru Austin because I looked at traffic and there was minimal congestion... ended up in at least 30 minutes of delay. This was during off peak hours on a Sunday.

Besides... you don't have to take the southern 40 miles. If you just want to avoid the worst areas of congestion, you can take the TX-45 connector half way through and it's only $8.64 with TxTag, $13 with pay-by-plate.

[texaskdog]

yes that's the things.  its either not faster to go all the way around on the toll road or if it is its not worth $16 so its not very heavily used. 

[Bobby5280]

I've taken the route numerous times and have never had an issue paying the toll. It's relatively low considering it's almost 100 miles long, and the speed limit is 80 - 85 mph. Since I have out of state plates, the toll-by-plate rate is $19 one-way.

That's still a pretty expensive toll. By comparison I pay $3.50 (PikePass rate) one way to drive from Lawton up to Oklahoma City. It's $5.10 from the Red River up to OKC. The cash rate for the full length is $6.25.

[sprjus4]

I've taken the route numerous times and have never had an issue paying the toll. It's relatively low considering it's almost 100 miles long, and the speed limit is 80 - 85 mph. Since I have out of state plates, the toll-by-plate rate is $19 one-way.

That's still a pretty expensive toll. By comparison I pay $3.50 (PikePass rate) one way to drive from Lawton up to Oklahoma City. It's $5.10 from the Red River up to OKC. The cash rate for the full length is $6.25.

Agree it's kind of expensive, but it's still something I would pay over Austin traffic. It's not like some of the tolls in the east, such as the HO/T lanes on I-95 leaving DC to the south where one can pay up to $30 at peak hours to bypass 30 miles of congestion. That, for instance, is something I would never pay. Too expensive for little gain. I'll sit out the 30 minute to 1 hour delay in the free lanes. I'd only pay it if I truly was in hurry to get somewhere.

The Chesapeake Expressway in Southeastern VA raises to $8 one-way for a 6-mile stretch, paralleled for that short distance by a rural 2-lane road. Again, something I wouldn't pay, especially for that short distance for little gain. But it does a good job capturing tourists from the north bound to the Outer Banks who have no problem paying it.

Then there's other modest tolls on long routes...

The New Jersey Turnpike is roughly $14 with E-ZPass for roughly 115 miles between Wilmington and New York City, completely bypassing Philadelphia.

The Pennsylvania Turnpike is similar as 161 miles between Ohio and Breezewood is roughly $22-24 with E-ZPass.

Those, for instance, are tolls I would pay, especially on a long-distance trip, especially if the free route is either a 2-lane road for 100 miles, or dumping me through a major metro at peak hour.

[Rothman]

Actually, the 90/10 split for interstates is still alive and well through the National Highway Performance Program and, to a lesser extent, the Highway Safety Improvement Program.  This has been clarified multiple times on this forum and I am amazed there is still confusion over it.

If the formula is still alive and well the feds must have a long list of exceptions for it. There's a couple safety projects along I-44 in Lawton that are getting nowhere because ODOT wants the city of Lawton to pay half the cost.

That is a strange arrangement.  I wonder if ODOT is on the same STIP cycle as NY.  That could mean that their STIP is fully programmed (due to just starting in Ocrober) and the MPO has come along with this project and this is ODOT's way of squeezing it in and, to be blunt, showing some annoyance it wasn't included in the first place.

Then again, I wonder what the funding makeup really is of this 50/50 split.  Is it truly local funding that ODOT wants ponied up, or do they provide the MPO with a federal suballocation and those are the funds that they want used?  It's a major difference.

[longhorn]

Does the 281 slalom north of downtown SA even meet current interstate standards?  At the speed limit it is one of the most white knuckle drives in Texas.

Preach preacher! How that stretch passed engineering is beyond me.

[Stephane Dumas]

Does the 281 slalom north of downtown SA even meet current interstate standards?  At the speed limit it is one of the most white knuckle drives in Texas.

Preach preacher! How that stretch passed engineering is beyond me.

I think we might find some parts of the answer on this link. http://www.texasfreeway.com/SanAntonio/historic/281_1971_study/281_1971_study.shtml

[Bobby5280]

Agree it's kind of expensive, but it's still something I would pay over Austin traffic. It's not like some of the tolls in the east, such as the HO/T lanes on I-95 leaving DC to the south where one can pay up to $30 at peak hours to bypass 30 miles of congestion. That, for instance, is something I would never pay. Too expensive for little gain. I'll sit out the 30 minute to 1 hour delay in the free lanes. I'd only pay it if I truly was in hurry to get somewhere.

I think the reversible HO/T lanes on I-95 in Northern VA have something of a captive audience. The sames goes for other toll roads and toll bridges there on the Eastern Seaboard. Motorists have no practical alternatives to I-95. I couldn't imagine taking US-1 down from DC well into Northern VA. They've improved the road a good bit, but it still has lots of stop light hell.

I remember traffic jams in the metro DC area being bad when I lived in the Northern VA area back in the 1980's. Now a bunch of that commerce moved South. A bunch of areas I remember being nothing but woods are now covered by shopping centers and housing developments. My family moved when the woods near Dale City were being cleared to build Potomac Mills. Back then the HO/T lanes on I-95 ended in Springfield just South of the Beltway. Now they go clear down past the Marine Corps base in Quantico and end in Aquia Harbor. That whole area around Stafford is built up now. Crazy.

Some of the traffic situation in DC/NVA remind of trouble spots in the Dallas area. The surface streets in the Addison area can be an absolute slog. LBJ Freeway is known for its horrible traffic jams. It's not so bad with the Tex-Express expansion now complete. Still, I'll pay extra to get on those Lexus Lanes to shoot past a serious jam on the free lanes.

I'll continue to steer clear of I-35E between Dallas and Denton. I really HATE the current arrangement with those lanes striped a foot more narrow than usual. The US-281 Slalom in San Antonio may be a white-knuckle experience. I-35E up through Farmer's Branch, Carrollton and Lewisville will make you feel like you might trade paint at any moment.

That is a strange arrangement.  I wonder if ODOT is on the same STIP cycle as NY.  That could mean that their STIP is fully programmed (due to just starting in Ocrober) and the MPO has come along with this project and this is ODOT's way of squeezing it in and, to be blunt, showing some annoyance it wasn't included in the first place.

Then again, I wonder what the funding makeup really is of this 50/50 split.  Is it truly local funding that ODOT wants ponied up, or do they provide the MPO with a federal suballocation and those are the funds that they want used?  It's a major difference.

ODOT merely told Lawton's City Council they wanted our city to pay half the tab. It didn't sound like they cared how the city scrounged up the money for the added sidewalk for the Gore Blvd bridge over I-44. I think the situation is ridiculous. That interchange is not city property. Meanwhile people are still jay-walking across I-44 or risking getting clipped by car mirrors trying to walk along Gore Blvd over I-44. What really pisses me off is this dangerous situation has existed for many years and nothing is being done about it. Contrast that with Norman and I-35. Big upgrades have happened there. The new SPUIs at Lindsey and Main can be crossed on foot. The older bridges over I-35 at Robinson and Rock Creek Road have dedicated sidewalks. Going a little farther North into Moore and the bridges over I-35 are like those in Lawton: no accommodations for pedestrian and/or bicycles.

[J N Winkler]

Then again, I wonder what the funding makeup really is of this 50/50 split.  Is it truly local funding that ODOT wants ponied up, or do they provide the MPO with a federal suballocation and those are the funds that they want used?  It's a major difference.

Are sidewalks on Interstate bridges eligible for federal funding at the same ratios as the rest of the bridge?

[Rothman]

Then again, I wonder what the funding makeup really is of this 50/50 split.  Is it truly local funding that ODOT wants ponied up, or do they provide the MPO with a federal suballocation and those are the funds that they want used?  It's a major difference.

Are sidewalks on Interstate bridges eligible for federal funding at the same ratios as the rest of the bridge?

For the situation he's talking about, I believe so.