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I-39/90/94 expansion: Madison to Portage

Started by I-39, December 22, 2016, 08:57:23 PM

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mgk920

#25
I also recall that a couple of years ago, there were postings in the Fictional/Fantasy Highways forvm where ideas were floated for redoing the I-39/90/94/WI 78 Cascade Interchange (I-39 split) near Portage. Now is the time to submit them to WisDOT.

:nod:

Mike


The Ghostbuster

How exactly should that interchange be reconstructed? I have no recommendations beyond the interchanges around Madison. Right-hand-only stack ramps at Interstate 94/WIS 30. No cloverleaves at US 12/18. I don't have any issues with the US 151 interchange, as I think it is as improved as its going to get. I would like collector-distributor lanes between US 51 and WIS 19, though.

DaBigE

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 04, 2017, 06:53:03 PM
How exactly should that interchange be reconstructed? I have no recommendations beyond the interchanges around Madison. Right-hand-only stack ramps at Interstate 94/WIS 30. No cloverleaves at US 12/18. I don't have any issues with the US 151 interchange, as I think it is as improved as its going to get. I would like collector-distributor lanes between US 51 and WIS 19, though.

Drive through the US 151 interchange during the peaks, especially the PM. The weaving associated with the SB US 151 traffic is bad with everyone from AmFam and the rest of the office park mixed with the traffic coming from Sun Prairie and points north.
"We gotta find this road, it's like Bob's road!" - Rabbit, Twister

I-39

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 31, 2016, 10:33:15 AM
Quote from: andy3175 on December 31, 2016, 12:19:49 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 29, 2016, 04:19:06 PM
Forget any potential 3-digit Interstate designations. The US 12 corridor doesn't need one. I can't think of any corridor in the state of Wisconsin that will get a new Interstate designation anytime soon.

How did you determine the US 12 corridor doesn't need an Interstate designation? Is this your opinion or a statement based in fact? Please elaborate on your reasoning, since your statements in this post appear to be mere opinion and offer little factual information about why Wisconsin will not create any more Interstate highways. Links and citations would be helpful. Have you talked to someone involved in planning at WIDOT who has given you this impression? Have you read something to give this impression? Or are you articulating your personal opinion without any factual analysis to back up your opinions?


LOL.  You want him to write a dissertation on a message board?

How about this...  Wisconsin has historically shown no interest in 3di designations.  There hasn't been a new one since the 1960s, despite the fact that there are opportunities to do so.

**US-12 from Elkhorn to the IL line
**WI-30 in Madison
**WI-172 outside of Green Bay
**US-45 south of West Bend
**WI-441 around Appleton

The top three could have been designated at anytime in the last few decades.  Nothing.  The last two are now (or will soon be) eligible with the I-41 designation.  No plans to do so on the WISDOT site.  There are probably others I am forgetting.

As for the route in question, US-12 west of Madison isn't going to be upgraded to interstate freeway in decades.  They may extend the expressway from Sauk Prairie to I-90/94 at the Dells, and they may upgrade some at-grade intersections to interchanges, but there simply isn't the resources to do a major overhaul.  And it seems like they will rightfully focus their efforts on the interstate corridor.

As for other major corridors...where?  WI-29 simply doesn't have the traffic volume to justify upgrades along that corridor.  They may extend corridors further north (I-39 and I-41), but there simply isn't any obvious candidates.

WisDOT hinted that WIS-29 may become an Interstate once it is fully converted to freeway from Elk Mound to Green Bay, but like you said, that's not going to happen anytime soon since the traffic volumes are not there yet.

As for US 12, I'm not sure why they haven't expedited the freeway upgrades between Baraboo and the Beltline (for the sections outside of the Sauk City bypass). If they really want to talk about a reliever route, look no further than US 12. I agree the Interstate 39/90/94 corridor between Madison and the Dells should get the priority first, but US 12 should be not far behind. 

SEWIGuy

Quote from: I-39 on January 05, 2017, 11:25:15 AM
As for US 12, I'm not sure why they haven't expedited the freeway upgrades between Baraboo and the Beltline (for the sections outside of the Sauk City bypass). If they really want to talk about a reliever route, look no further than US 12. I agree the Interstate 39/90/94 corridor between Madison and the Dells should get the priority first, but US 12 should be not far behind. 


I am not sure it would be a good reliever route though.

The only people that would use that would be people from the west side of Madison who are going to the Dells and further points northwest.  If you are heading up I-39, you aren't taking US-12 even if you are on the west side of Madison.

Traffic from points south of Madison headed to the Dells and beyond on I-90/94 aren't going to get off to take US-12.  It wouldn't effect traffic from east of Madison that comes into the area on I-94 either.

The Ghostbuster

To the person who asked how I determined that the US 12 corridor doesn't need an Interstate designation. BECAUSE IT DOESN'T! Period. I live in Madison, and while I haven't been out that way a lot, it is obvious because WISDOT doesn't plan on making the whole corridor a freeway. Now or in the future. On the west end of the Beltline at CTH-K, the portion from there to STH-19 is the only one planned for freeway conversion at some point in the future. I don't know how likely a Sauk City bypass is (it can't be built before 2020, as part of the deal to four-lane US 12 between Middleton and Sauk City), but beyond there, the currently under construction West Baraboo Bypass, and the previously constructed freeway north of Baraboo are the only other freeway portions of US 12 that will exist in the corridor anytime soon, if ever.

GeekJedi

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 05, 2017, 04:40:27 PM
To the person who asked how I determined that the US 12 corridor doesn't need an Interstate designation. BECAUSE IT DOESN'T! Period. I live in Madison, and while I haven't been out that way a lot, it is obvious because WISDOT doesn't plan on making the whole corridor a freeway. Now or in the future. On the west end of the Beltline at CTH-K, the portion from there to STH-19 is the only one planned for freeway conversion at some point in the future. I don't know how likely a Sauk City bypass is (it can't be built before 2020, as part of the deal to four-lane US 12 between Middleton and Sauk City), but beyond there, the currently under construction West Baraboo Bypass, and the previously constructed freeway north of Baraboo are the only other freeway portions of US 12 that will exist in the corridor anytime soon, if ever.

So...I work in Madison, so if I say "BECAUSE IT DOES! Period." does that mean it does? Because, you know, that's kinda not a reason.
"Wisconsin - The Concurrency State!"

Revive 755

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 05, 2017, 04:40:27 PM
To the person who asked how I determined that the US 12 corridor doesn't need an Interstate designation. BECAUSE IT DOESN'T! Period. I live in Madison, and while I haven't been out that way a lot, it is obvious because WISDOT doesn't plan on making the whole corridor a freeway.

I FOR ONE DISAGREE.  Period.
 
And you have been to the future and can say for sure that a full freeway conversion for the US 12 corridor will not appear some year?


The Ghostbuster

I personally don't see the US 12 corridor becoming an Interstate, which would be overkill. As for US 12 being 4 lanes from Wisconsin Dells to Madison, I'd be all for that. Most of my previous comment was based on plans and proposals on the WISDOT website. No, I haven't been to the future, but I believe the WISDOT website is the best reference guide to what might happen to said corridors in the future.

andy3175

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 06, 2017, 03:53:25 PM
I personally don't see the US 12 corridor becoming an Interstate, which would be overkill.

I just have to ask: Why would any portion of US 12 in Wisconsin becoming an Interstate be "overkill"? Is this because you don't feel the traffic counts don't warrant an Interstate, because the numbering change would be difficult for travelers to understand, because you prefer the US 12 designation and want that to remain in place, because you believe the Interstate highway system has reached its maximum length and there should not be additions to the system, etc. ....? My difficulty here is that you habitually make relatively short posts based on some understanding of the future that the rest of us don't have. While I am fine with you making opinions, I am troubled by your generalized statements that do not explain how you arrived at your opinion. And I see you've made these kinds of posts all over this forum that state, more or less, that this corridor or that corridor will never be built and certainly would never get an Interstate shield. That's fine if you believe it, but it adds nothing to this forum unless you have something informative to add to the thread that helps others understand the facts behind your opinion. Otherwise it's only your opinion, which does not add much to the overall conversation about the proposal, whatever roadway proposal we're discussing. Finally, I have no particular opinion either way about whether some corridor gets widened or gets an Interstate designation, but as someone who follows highway politics, it is worthwhile to watch the official proposals, see where they go, and offer my opinion if there is something factual to back it up.
Regards,
Andy

www.aaroads.com

DaBigE

I also don't see US 12 becoming an interstate for a long time, if ever. Spot improvements, yes. Further expansion of the expressway (other than what's already programmed), maybe, but even that is decades off.

Looking at the most recent interstate conversion in Wisconsin, US 12 doesn't have the population density that US/I-41 has (surrounding the route or as destination cities). Once you get outside of the Madison metro area, look at the destination cities it would serve...Baraboo (~12K), Wisconsin Dells (~2.7K - permanent). Even then, most out-of-state travelers going to the Dells stick to the existing I-39/90/94 route. Not to mention the political nightmare WisDOT would be facing trying to justify funding interstate-level improvements to the corridor with so many other programmed and rehab projects needing funding. While I believe using interstate highway status as a marketing tool is weak reasoning to justify a highway project (as was part of the reasoning for I-41), I see even less of a case for marketing a US 12 conversion than what US 41 had in the Fox Valley.

Then once you get past the Dells, its basically paralleling I-90 or I-94, so what would be the point of another interstate? South of Madison, upgrading would require constructing bypasses around Cambridge and Fort Atkinson (again, think about the political fight WisDOT would be in for).

I believe 6-lanes between Pewaukee and Madison, and Portage to the Dells will happen well before any more grandiose upgrades to US 12. The benefit-cost ratio just doesn't seem to be present for US 12. IMO, US 12 will remain a scenic alternate route for my lifetime.
"We gotta find this road, it's like Bob's road!" - Rabbit, Twister

The Ghostbuster

All of the alternatives for the Interstate 39/90/94 corridor are being refined for the Draft Tier 1 EIS. There are no dates scheduled for the public hearing for the Draft EIS, but since the last PIM was only two months ago, it will likely be a while before it's held.

I-39

The US 12 corridor between Madison and the Dells does not need an Interstate designation. I was simply suggesting perhaps it could be fully upgraded to a four-lane freeway to serve as a reliever route for I-39/90/94, which despite what has been said, I think it would be used more than people think. However, I do agree with the consensus that it won't happen for a long time, if ever.

That being said, they should in the meantime get going on some interim improvements to US 12 in that corridor, including freeway conversion between the Beltline and WIS 19 (which is under study right now) and rebuilding the pavement on the existing four lane segment between the end of the Baraboo bypass and County Z. Additionally, consider rebuilding and widening the Beltline between Middleton (US 14) and Verona Road to six lanes.

Back to I-39/90/94, the biggest things that needs to be addressed are rebuilding and widening to eight lanes in the Madison area and reconstructing both the I-39/90/I-94/WIS 30 interchange and the US 151 interchange. The former needs to be modified to eliminate the left turns and the latter needs to become a free flow freeway-to-freeway interchange.

By the way, does anyone know if the I-39/90 interchange with the Beltline has become part of this study? I no longer see it in the construction timeline for the I-39/90 widening project.

The Ghostbuster

Since the Beltline Interchange will not be reconstructed with the current 39/90 reconstruction project (which I totally disagree with), it is very likely that it will be reconstructed as part of the 39/90/94 project.

triplemultiplex

I believe the 39/90 interchange with the Beltline is now part of the larger study focused on the Beltline from CTH N to Middleton.

http://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/sw/madisonbeltline/default.aspx
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

Bickendan

US 16 should be brought back from the dead east of Rapid City just so it can get (re)routed onto the Beltline. US 12, 14, 16, 18... and 151 :bigass:

The Ghostbuster

Take it to Fictional Highways, Bickendan. I'd put US 16 back on its original alignment east of Rapid City. It does not need to go through Madison, even fictionally.

I-39

It sounds like the Beltline interchange, if it is included in the I-39/90 work, will be the last thing done. I saw somewhere that it may not be constructed until after 2022.

dzlsabe

Maybe just a train (light rail or commuter or BOTH) from Janesville, Madison to MSN, Portage, Dells, BRF, Eau Claire, MSP? If any place could pull it off, it would be Daneco etal.
ILs mantra..the beatings will continue until the morale improves but Expect Delays is good too. Seems some are happy that Chicago/land remains miserable. Status quo is often asinine...Always feel free to use a dictionary as I tend to offend younger or more sensitive viewers. Thanx Pythagoras. :rofl:

Bickendan

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 13, 2017, 05:55:39 PM
Take it to Fictional Highways, Bickendan. I'd put US 16 back on its original alignment east of Rapid City. It does not need to go through Madison, even fictionally.
I do hope you can tell when someone's being a smartass for the sake of being a smartass.

The Ghostbuster

Sorry, Bickendan. I didn't realize you were being a smartass. My mistake.

GeekJedi

Quote from: Bickendan on January 13, 2017, 03:39:43 AM
US 16 should be brought back from the dead east of Rapid City just so it can get (re)routed onto the Beltline. US 12, 14, 16, 18... and 151 :bigass:

Then re-route US 20 up I-90, across the beltline, then back down 151. Then we can have US 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 151! :bigass:

I mean - go big or go home, right?
"Wisconsin - The Concurrency State!"

Bickendan

Quote from: GeekJedi on January 14, 2017, 02:08:20 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on January 13, 2017, 03:39:43 AM
US 16 should be brought back from the dead east of Rapid City just so it can get (re)routed onto the Beltline. US 12, 14, 16, 18... and 151 :bigass:

Then re-route US 20 up I-90, across the beltline, then back down 151. Then we can have US 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 151! :bigass:

I mean - go big or go home, right?
Ooooh, a sextuplet! It's almost a waltz of US highways! :bigass:

dvferyance

Quote from: GeekJedi on January 14, 2017, 02:08:20 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on January 13, 2017, 03:39:43 AM
US 16 should be brought back from the dead east of Rapid City just so it can get (re)routed onto the Beltline. US 12, 14, 16, 18... and 151 :bigass:

Then re-route US 20 up I-90, across the beltline, then back down 151. Then we can have US 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 151! :bigass:

I mean - go big or go home, right?
You can go even farther and reroute US 51 west on the beltline then it can head back east over on WI 19. Now we have US 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 51, 151 all on the same road!

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: dvferyance on January 15, 2017, 09:25:17 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on January 14, 2017, 02:08:20 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on January 13, 2017, 03:39:43 AM
US 16 should be brought back from the dead east of Rapid City just so it can get (re)routed onto the Beltline. US 12, 14, 16, 18... and 151 :bigass:

Then re-route US 20 up I-90, across the beltline, then back down 151. Then we can have US 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 151! :bigass:

I mean - go big or go home, right?
You can go even farther and reroute US 51 west on the beltline then it can head back east over on WI 19. Now we have US 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 51, 151 all on the same road!

Imagine how long the unisigns would have to be for that! :D
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running



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