What a mess of a freeway system...Originally they wanted to build I-83 all the way down to 95, and they wanted to build I-70, but it got turned into a park and ride, along with a stretch of the U.S. 40 freeway. How would they have actually been able to build those two freeways if they were given the chance? I look at baltimore maps and I just don't see how it was possible to even try building them through there.
There are more abandoned plans then those too, like Interstate 795 continuing southeast to Wabash Boulevard.
The Winless Freeway, Maryland 702 continuing further southeast, Maryland 43 was to go further. I have a great old Esso map showing all of the east side freeways in storage somewhere that I'd like to scan someday.
Furthermore there is the mystery behind the Maryland 10 stub at Interstate 695.
Quote from: aaroads on January 20, 2009, 06:33:06 PM
The Winless Freeway
I think just about every freeway in Baltimore meets that description.
The I-95 ghost ramps at the unbuilt I-70 interchange are easily visible if you know to look for them, just east of the Caton Ave. interchange. If you're heading NB on I-95, take the Caton Ave. C/D lane and don't exit.
I've had a harder time seeing the I-95 ghost ramps to unbuilt I-83, even though they appear on satellite imagery at Google and Yahoo Maps.
On MLK Blvd. NB @ US 40, you can see a green guide sign that used to have the I-170 shield on it. A shield-shaped area has a different shade of green than the rest of the sign. Even though the mile-long freeway doesn't seem to last long when you take it, it's a nice break from the series of traffic lights on US 40 everywhere else in the city.
I have yet to hear why the MD 10 & I-695 interchange was configured in a way that would allow all the ramps from a northward-extended MD 10 to fit in.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.artistjake.com%2Ff%2Fc2%2Fx3144.jpg&hash=832a6498f7893a57c12e0edb9ea05f2e06718747)
Here is a phantom 170 shield; probably the same one treichard saw.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.artistjake.com%2Ff%2Fc2%2Fx3142.jpg&hash=ee4f36d66702917090cdec1e721939407fcf23c7)
an unbuilt on-ramp to the 170... the sign bridge is there, though.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.artistjake.com%2Ff%2Fc2%2Fx3141.jpg&hash=59b7e6d28741753740bc4d2cb572ca197f2dab8a)
who says roadgeeking isn't lucrative? Yep, found that on the ground while walking the abandoned on-ramp.
You have some good luck!
Wow, I've never seen a freeway onramp that looked liked that before...definitely odd looking, too bad the freeway was never built.
There was a Baltimore photo book at a book store in Normal Heights (San Diego) that Andy and I found that had black and white photos of the freeway with Interstate 170 shields on some of these signs.
Where did the ghost ramps intend to go at the I-95 interchange with Moravia Road (Exit 60), north of the Fort McHenry Tunnel?
Eastward to the Windlass Freeway portion of Interstate 695 (where Interstate 695 makes the 90 degree turn southward).
Really, I think some of the freeways would be useful, like 83 down to 95 or maybe making I-70 connecting to the half-built US-40 thing.
According to the 1964 BMATS plan, What is now MD 10 would have continued northward, passing near or over the Papatsco Ave/Pennington Ave intersection, crossing I-895 between Shell Rd and Hanover St, then parallel (just to the west) the Hanover St corridor north, meeting today's I-95 between I-395 and MD 2/Hanover St.
The same 1964 BMATS plan had the Northwest Freeway (I-795) coming inward from the Beltway, then turning south through Gwynns Falls to meet I-95 near Caton Ave. At the time, I-70N was planned to continue east from Leakin Park to downtown along the aborted I-170 corridor. Later on, the Northwest Freeway inside the Beltway was cancelled (as was a freeway ring around downtown Baltimore), and the Gwynns Falls to I-95 portion became part of the I-70 proposal.
The I-95 ramps at Moravia Rd would have not only served the Windlass Freeway, but the southern part of Moravia Rd itself would have been part of the BMATS-propsed "Cold Spring Freeway", which would have headed northwestward along or parallel to today's Moravia Rd, then turn west along Cold Spring Ln to meet the Northwest Freeway.
One more BMATS-proposed freeway within the city: the Northeast Connector. From the curve on I-83 near Guilford Ave, it would have headed northeastward, meeting what got built as Perring Pkwy (MD 41), which itself would have been freeway inside the Beltway, then at-grade expressway outside the Beltway and extending into Harford County.
Last one: White Marsh Blvd (MD 43) was propsed in 1964 as a freeway between I-695 and US 40. Of course, it got built as an at-grade arterial instead.
83 would definitely help things in downtown
It seems like it would take much to get I-70 to the US 40 stub.
There wouldn't have to be a ton of demolishing, but the enviromentalists would go crazy because a 70/40 connector would have to go through a big park. That same park is what got the original I-70 stopped.
About I-70 and I-83 has Maryland ever considered possibly extending I-83 along I-695 to I-95 northeast of Baltimore or I-70 along I-695 to I-95 or even farther east following I-695 and I-97 to US 50/301 near Annapolis? I-83 in Downtown Baltimore could be an x-83(I would prefer an x-95 so it would not have to multiplex with I-695 for about a mile but all of the x-95s in Maryland are used up except for I-995(yes I-595 exists along US 50/301 but it is not signed).
Quote from: 74/171FAN on February 14, 2009, 11:08:14 PM
About I-70 and I-83 has Maryland ever considered possibly extending I-83 along I-695 to I-95 northeast of Baltimore or I-70 along I-695 to I-95 or even farther east following I-695 and I-97 to US 50/301 near Annapolis?
We love to discuss it, but once 83 and 70 died inside Baltimore, there was no further consideration actually given to them. Only in our heads.
A story about drag racing on that stub of I-70 between the Baltimore Beltway and the Park 'n' Ride.
http://www.wtopnews.com/?sid=1701466&nid=25 (http://www.wtopnews.com/?sid=1701466&nid=25)
Seems like I do see one of Maryland's finest patrolling (or firing radar/laser) in that area quite frequently.
Eastbound in the last mile of I-70, the speed limit drops to 55, then 40, then 25. It's one of the few pieces of Interstate-quality highway where it is safe (and illegal) to drive at speeds three times the speed limit (for a short distance), and with light traffic.
I've seen cops sitting on the EB inside shoulder. Approaching that location, you pass over the I-695 interchange, then there is a gentle curve right followed by a gentle curve left, perfect for hiding on that shoulder ready to pounce on a speeder.
Maybe they should tunnel I-70 under the park like Caltrans wants to do with I-710.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.artistjake.com%2Ff%2Fc2%2Fx3142.jpg&hash=ee4f36d66702917090cdec1e721939407fcf23c7)
an unbuilt on-ramp to the 170... the sign bridge is there, though.
Do you have an up close photo of the sign bridge and what lays just beyond it?
I find US 40 facinating!
Quote from: doofy103 on June 23, 2009, 04:30:03 PM
an unbuilt on-ramp to the 170... the sign bridge is there, though.
Do you have an up close photo of the sign bridge and what lays just beyond it?
I find US 40 facinating!
I have a number of photos posted at https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/i-170_md.html (https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/i-170_md.html)
There are a few more in my queue too.
Quote from: doofy103 on June 23, 2009, 04:30:03 PM
an unbuilt on-ramp to the 170... the sign bridge is there, though.
Do you have an up close photo of the sign bridge and what lays just beyond it?
I find US 40 facinating!
You can also see http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/md/us_40/170.html (http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/md/us_40/170.html) for a flurry of I-170 related photos.
Quote from: doofy103 on June 23, 2009, 04:30:03 PM
an unbuilt on-ramp to the 170... the sign bridge is there, though.
Do you have an up close photo of the sign bridge and what lays just beyond it?
I find US 40 facinating!
here's what the next sign bridge looks like:
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/MD/MD19700011i1.jpg)
In other Baltimore news, according to WTOP radio (http://www.wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=1704652), two more ramps at the I-95/695 interchange on the northeast side were to open this morning...the ramps from SB I-95 to either direction on I-695. This will eliminate one of the left-side ramps that previously existed.
Just had this sent to me today:
Attention E-ZPass® customers!!
As part of the I-95 Express Toll LanesSM Project, on or about July 12th, 2009, a major change to the current traffic pattern on southbound I-95 at the I-895 split north of Baltimore will go into effect that may impact your ride.
Currently, southbound I-95 traffic exits to the right while I-895 traffic uses the left lanes. The new traffic pattern will now have I-95 traffic continuing in the left lanes and I-895 traffic exiting on the right.
Southbound I-95 travelers will no longer need to move right to reach their destinations. The left three lanes will continue to Baltimore and points south. Those heading to points south via I-895 will use the two right lanes to access I-895.
Click here (http://www.i-95expresstolllanes.com/linked_files/I-895%20Split%20Traffic%20Alert%20Handout%20061909.pdf) for details.
I'll let you know how this goes. I am going to Baltimore for a soccer game July 24, two weeks into the new traffic pattern.
I'd like to see pics of the new configuration if anyone is in the area! I'll add them to the Interstate Guide in an upcoming update.
I planned on getting some today but my camera died on the way home from New York
On Friday, I passed a 6-7 mile practically stopped backup leading out of DC at rush hour where an accident took out 2 of 4 lanes. Pretty bad, huh? Except on Friday, I exited I-95 SB at MD 43, just shy of the 895 interchange. Coming back up today, I wasn't really planning to use I-95, but what sealed the deal was another report of backups at Exit 67. Last thing I wanna do is be part of anything close to what I saw on Friday.
Quote from: froggie on July 06, 2009, 06:47:14 AM
DC didn't really have a rush hour on Friday, since Federal workers (and many normal workers) had the day off.
Exactly. So I figured on Sunday, with everyone heading back home out of the city, the NB delays must be that much worse. Of course, more lanes may have been open. I was not going to be finding out. (:
Quote from: HighwayMaster on September 21, 2009, 04:54:47 PM
AARoads...
I'd love to see that picture out of that book you saw in San Diego.
It was in a book store on Adams Avenue in San Diego. Might have been the Adams Avenue Bookstore (http://www.adamsavebooks.com/). It was there in 2004 and still there in 2005. Heck it could still be there now!
This afternoon, I think I found the book Alex was referring to. It's indeed at the Adams Ave Bookstore (an awesome used-book store, BTW). The book had one low-altitude photo of I-170 looking west from what is now MLK Blvd (which wasn't built at the time), and if you looked closely you could pick out the I-170 shields on the overhead signage (which looks like this (https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/maryland001/us-040_wb_app_i-170.jpg) today).
The book's name was "The Baltimore Book", with a secondary title of "New Views of Local History", published by Temple University Press back in 1991.
Quote from: froggie on January 22, 2009, 06:11:55 PM
One more BMATS-proposed freeway within the city: the Northeast Connector. From the curve on I-83 near Guilford Ave, it would have headed northeastward, meeting what got built as Perring Pkwy (MD 41), which itself would have been freeway inside the Beltway, then at-grade expressway outside the Beltway and extending into Harford County.
Some goodies for the discussion here...
Here's how these looked outside town, from 1968:
http://www.mdroads.com/lostexpwys/1968plan.jpg (http://www.mdroads.com/lostexpwys/1968plan.jpg)
And an old roadmap of proposed east side Baltimore freeways in 1961 (it's fragile, torn, and written upon):
http://www.mdroads.com/mapscans/61genbae.jpg
What's weird about this one is the section of Beltway they had as u/c was one that never got built.
I also saw Perring as a dotted line on an SHA plan from 1977. If I remember it correctly, it connected with the Bel Air/Hickory bypasses, and that the new MD 23 corridor was also to be a freeway corridor, Outer Beltway, perhaps?
Quote from: MDRoads on February 06, 2010, 10:41:29 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 22, 2009, 06:11:55 PM
One more BMATS-proposed freeway within the city: the Northeast Connector. From the curve on I-83 near Guilford Ave, it would have headed northeastward, meeting what got built as Perring Pkwy (MD 41), which itself would have been freeway inside the Beltway, then at-grade expressway outside the Beltway and extending into Harford County.
Some goodies for the discussion here...
And an old roadmap of proposed east side Baltimore freeways in 1961 (it's fragile, torn, and written upon):
http://www.mdroads.com/mapscans/61genbae.jpg
What's weird about this one is the section of Beltway they had as u/c was one that never got built
I have this exact same map in my collection, but its location is currently unknown, along with most of my Maryland, VA, NJ maps.
I've got a Baltimore story for you people;
On my recent drive up and down the east coast, I decided that this time I was going to take the Harbor Tunnel Thruway while driving through Baltimore. Once I got out of the tunnel I encountered a traffic jam. As it turns out somebody dropped a wheelbarrel in the northbound left lane right under here.
https://imgur.com/a/YxIKpGA
So I pulled over and called the Baltimore PD hoping they'd get somebody from Maryland DOT to pick it up, but either I got a bad reception on my cell phone or there was too much road noise. Either way I couldn't tell them a thing and hung up. I realized I had to take care of this myself, one way or another.
Less than five minutes later(maybe even two), I finally got all the cars to stop and let me cross the road to pick it up and bring it across to the other shoulder. One woman who was right in front of it gave me a congratulatory thumbs up, and the people of Baltimore were quite pleased.
After I was done, I got a reverse 911 call from the police, and I explained what was going down. I doubt it's there now, but I would've loved to see a police report on that.
I'm surprised the 12+ patrol cars that sit on I-895 24/7 running speed traps didn't notice it.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on July 08, 2010, 05:25:18 PM
I'm surprised the 12+ patrol cars that sit on I-895 24/7 running speed traps didn't notice it.
Why bother noticing? Wouldn't be cost-effective.
QuoteI'm surprised the 12+ patrol cars that sit on I-895 24/7 running speed traps didn't notice it.
There's 12+ patrol cars on 895? Most I've ever seen is 2. And Tuesday heading north, there were none.
Quote from: froggie on July 08, 2010, 06:22:33 PM
QuoteI'm surprised the 12+ patrol cars that sit on I-895 24/7 running speed traps didn't notice it.
There's 12+ patrol cars on 895? Most I've ever seen is 2. And Tuesday heading north, there were none.
Noted one yesterday, and did not see any the other couple of trips along I-895 this time. They used to hang out near the merge/split with I-95 at the north end, but with all of that construction there, their original hiding spot is gone.
Also noted that the speed limit along the southern stretch was bumped up to 65 mph. This was a definitely plus.
Four main spots where I've noticed patrol cars over the years:
1. Up by the northern end (transition to speed limit 50)... turnaround is gone, though sometimes appear near the Moravia Road salt pyramid.
2. Southbound by the northern tube entrance (MdTA HQ--adjacent to the I-95 toll plaza)
3. At the 895 toll plaza itself.
4. North of Exit 4 (BW Parkway), near MP 5, there's a turnaround hidden from the southbound lanes.
U.S. 140 died in part because of the Northwest Expressway (Interstate 795).
"Route 140 May Change to Rt. 97 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rpsyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=0OgFAAAAIBAJ&dq=route%20140%20gettysburg&pg=2817%2C1340916)"
QuoteThe notice from the Maryland Department of Transportation states that construction of the new Northwest Freeway which will parallel U.S. Route 140 from Baltimore to Reistertown makes necessary a change. The present U.S. Route 140 would then revert to state designation.
There were still U.S. 140 shields at the end of the Beltway off-ramp to MD-140 in 1988...
"American Association of Highway Traveler Association"? :ded:
how does this correlate with the creation of an interstate 97 (in almost, but not quite, the same area) several years later?
It doesn't, since Maryland has no qualms duplicating route numbers between state routes and Interstates. Besides MD 97, there are MD 68, MD 70, MD 195, MD 270, MD 370, and MD 495 that all exist.
Replaced: https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/maryland700/i-795_sb_exit_001b_02.jpg
Replaced: https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/maryland700/i-795_nb_exit_004_02.jpg
Replaced: https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/maryland700/i-795_sb_exit_007_01.jpg
So Interstate 795 is entirely neutered?...
Quote from: AARoads on July 17, 2010, 01:14:06 AM
So Interstate 795 is entirely neutered?...
I believe so, but as a consolation prize, the I-695 Maryland shield still stands on the outer loop just south of 795.
(//www.aaroads.com/forum_images/mid-atlantic/md_highways.png) (//www.aaroads.com/forum_images/mid-atlantic/md_highways.png)
[click for larger .png]
Light gray shields are for unsigned routes, dark gray are for decommissioned U.S. highways.
Practicing with GIS, and adding to my renewed interest in Baltimore area roads, I started working on a new Baltimore map for the web site. Additionally for fun I plan on adding some of the dead freeway proposals, since I now have my Maryland map collection again.
bah, use '61 spec interstate and US shields. :ded:
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 22, 2010, 08:39:30 PM
bah, use '61 spec interstate and US shields. :ded:
Send me the vector based version of the classic MD spec US shield and I will put it in place! The PNG from the shield generator does not work as an .EMF file.
What would you rather for the Ishields? Having "INTERSTATE" in them is impractical at this scale, though having "MARYLAND" in them is just as impractical, but :ded: :-D
Quote from: AARoads on July 22, 2010, 08:44:12 PM
Send me the vector based version of the classic MD spec US shield and I will put it in place! The PNG from the shield generator does not work as an .EMF file.
I thought I have. Not the Maryland funny shape, but a standard federal shield shape, which was retained until 1961. I'll send it tonight.
QuoteWhat would you rather for the Ishields? Having "INTERSTATE" in them is impractical at this scale, though having "MARYLAND" in them is just as impractical, but :ded: :-D
No state name needed; I mean the wide margins and taller crown - i.e. the better-proportioned shield. See shield generator for "'61 generic" and eliminate the word "interstate" while keeping the 10" number on a 24" blank. I'll send you that layout as vector tonight as well.
down with bloated, ugly '70 spec shields! :ded:
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 22, 2010, 08:47:03 PM
Quote from: AARoads on July 22, 2010, 08:44:12 PM
Send me the vector based version of the classic MD spec US shield and I will put it in place! The PNG from the shield generator does not work as an .EMF file.
I thought I have. Not the Maryland funny shape, but a standard federal shield shape, which was retained until 1961. I'll send it tonight.
QuoteWhat would you rather for the Ishields? Having "INTERSTATE" in them is impractical at this scale, though having "MARYLAND" in them is just as impractical, but :ded: :-D
No state name needed; I mean the wide margins and taller crown - i.e. the better-proportioned shield. See shield generator for "'61 generic" and eliminate the word "interstate" while keeping the 10" number on a 24" blank. I'll send you that layout as vector tonight as well.
down with bloated, ugly '70 spec shields! :ded:
I'll implement them as .EMF's in my style file and see how they come out. I'm developing my own shield set for use as I get more projects at work.
For this map, I hope the motivation keeps me going through adding photos of all of the surface route state highways I drove earlier this month. The gray shields are for unsigned routes, based upon what I noted from driving around. I have a 1960s city map that has I-70N proposed all the way to I-95, dunno if that was the intended path, but I may add to a shape file of "dead freeways".
Went through a couple of fold maps from the 60s and drew in lines for many of the canceled freeways throughout Baltimore and vicinity:
(//www.aaroads.com/forum_images/mid-atlantic/baltimore_dead_fwys.png) (//www.aaroads.com/forum_images/mid-atlantic/baltimore_dead_fwys.png)
[click for larger .png]
Light gray shields are for unsigned routes or dead routes on the freeways, dark gray are for decommissioned U.S. highways.
Any insight on some of these lines would be helpful. Like what is the outer outer beltway through eastern Baltimore County? Was the Jones Falls Expressway slated to take I-83 without it having to share an alignment with I-695? Where was MD-10 supposed to go? The line on the one map I have was drawn before either MD 10 or I-695 were built, so the MD-10 dashed line there was abitrary and showed it going to MD-171 in the city.
How (if at all) do you plan on delineating the wildly different proposals, which can basically be summed up as early '60s, and post-1969? Namely with I-70's alignment (2 different proposals) and I-170's alignment (2 different proposals).
As for your map as it currently stands, it should be noted that none of the following appeared on the 1964 BMATS study:
- The separate I-83 north of I-695. However, this was definitely on SHA's proposals later on.
- The spur off the southeast corner of the I-695 beltway, leading onto Patapsco River Neck and North Point Rd.
- The spur on Back River Neck leading towards Rocky Point Park. Later on, a connection in this vicinity was considered for a "Northern Bay Bridge"...a decision was made to build a parallel Bay Bridge span (today's westbound 50/301) instead.
- The Outer Loop through eastern Montgomery County, between Back River Neck and US 40. The Back River crossing was included, but as part of a loop that also included the Southeastern Expressway (today's MD 702).
- The White Marsh Freeway east of the Windlass Freeway. An at-grade arterial was proposed east of the Windlass, but only as far as Eastern Ave/MD 150.
- The Windlass Freeway north of the White Marsh Freeway.
I am not sure how I want to approach the different alignments on how they relate to different years. I likely will switch them between different time frames and make separate outputs. Once the annotation is set on the main highways, it should not be too difficult.
I will label some of the alignments as I get names for them and such. Your notes below are very helpful.
Quote from: froggie on July 27, 2010, 04:33:45 PM
How (if at all) do you plan on delineating the wildly different proposals, which can basically be summed up as early '60s, and post-1969? Namely with I-70's alignment (2 different proposals) and I-170's alignment (2 different proposals).
As for your map as it currently stands, it should be noted that none of the following appeared on the 1964 BMATS study:
- The separate I-83 north of I-695. However, this was definitely on SHA's proposals later on.
- The spur off the southeast corner of the I-695 beltway, leading onto Patapsco River Neck and North Point Rd.
- The spur on Back River Neck leading towards Rocky Point Park. Later on, a connection in this vicinity was considered for a "Northern Bay Bridge"...a decision was made to build a parallel Bay Bridge span (today's westbound 50/301) instead.
- The Outer Loop through eastern Montgomery County, between Back River Neck and US 40. The Back River crossing was included, but as part of a loop that also included the Southeastern Expressway (today's MD 702).
- The White Marsh Freeway east of the Windlass Freeway. An at-grade arterial was proposed east of the Windlass, but only as far as Eastern Ave/MD 150.
- The Windlass Freeway north of the White Marsh Freeway.
You can also shoot me your shapefile and I can add the names as a field.
Quote from: AARoads on July 27, 2010, 04:11:24 PM
Any insight on some of these lines would be helpful. Like what is the outer outer beltway through eastern Baltimore County? Was the Jones Falls Expressway slated to take I-83 without it having to share an alignment with I-695? Where was MD-10 supposed to go? The line on the one map I have was drawn before either MD 10 or I-695 were built, so the MD-10 dashed line there was abitrary and showed it going to MD-171 in the city.
According to the 1975 Highway Needs Study, that northeast outer beltway was called the Gunpowder Expressway. It ran more northerly though, up roughly along Bradshaw Rd to Kingsville then to Fork and Baldwin, ending near where MD 138 and 562 meet, at what was called the Piedmont Expressway. It would have extended westward from the new section of MD 23 @ 165 in northern Harford Co., crossing MD 138 at Monkton, and running parallel a mile south of MD 137, reaching MD 30 right at the Baltimore/Carroll County line. There was even a northern tier proposed, the East-West Scenic Expressway, running just below the PA line. I have some pics of these maps in an album on the facebook page; it'll at least give you a rough idea: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=170233&id=139158172604
Quote from: MDRoads on August 03, 2010, 01:20:24 AM
According to the 1975 Highway Needs Study, that northeast outer beltway was called the Gunpowder Expressway. It ran more northerly though, up roughly along Bradshaw Rd to Kingsville then to Fork and Baldwin, ending near where MD 138 and 562 meet, at what was called the Piedmont Expressway. It would have extended westward from the new section of MD 23 @ 165 in northern Harford Co., crossing MD 138 at Monkton, and running parallel a mile south of MD 137, reaching MD 30 right at the Baltimore/Carroll County line. There was even a northern tier proposed, the East-West Scenic Expressway, running just below the PA line. I have some pics of these maps in an album on the facebook page; it'll at least give you a rough idea: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=170233&id=139158172604
Is that the same Piedmont Expressway proposed to roughly follow the U.S. 1 and 202 corridors west and north of Philadelphia?
The question to ask, how many of these freeway proposals went from just an idea to an actual study or formal plan? That Gousha map from the early 60s I have has many marked with a thin dashed line. I have a General Drafting (same one you have pictures of on the MDRoads FB page) map that shows the southeast Baltimore area freeway networks as double dashed lines too. I would prefer to focus on the ones that "had a chance" versus ones that were just "suggestive in nature".
Quote from: AARoads on August 03, 2010, 01:37:50 AM
The question to ask, how many of these freeway proposals went from just an idea to an actual study or formal plan? That Gousha map from the early 60s I have has many marked with a thin dashed line. I have a General Drafting (same one you have pictures of on the MDRoads FB page) map that shows the southeast Baltimore area freeway networks as double dashed lines too. I would prefer to focus on the ones that "had a chance" versus ones that were just "suggestive in nature".
The ones that "had a chance" were the ones that were built later as non-freeway, at-grade facilities (MD 702, 43, US 1 Bypasses.) The Gunpowder, East-West Scenic, and Piedmont were just abstract lines, no alignment was really nailed down. So was the Perring, except for the northern end at Bel Air, where it hooked into what became the Bel Air and Hickory Bypasses. While the Perring was still on the plans, the Whitemarsh hooked northward toward it instead of the Beltway.
On the whole, Gousha seemed to have a lower threshold for inclusion as single dashed lines. They would have the northern extensions of US 29 and I-195, the incomplete Windlass/Patapsco sections, inner I-795, and the I-83 connector. They also had Washington stuff proposed that no other map bothered with.
A little anecdote about the Bayway east toward the Whitemarsh... My friend's grandfather remembered getting mail from SHA about possibly having to take their neighborhood, Bauernschmidt Manor. There's still some abandoned lots on Turkey Point Rd near the high school. It appeared by 1965, and was killed sometime before 1973.
Quote from: AARoads on August 03, 2010, 01:37:50 AM
Is that the same Piedmont Expressway proposed to roughly follow the U.S. 1 and 202 corridors west and north of Philadelphia?
No relation with anything up in PA. This Piedmont would have ended at US 1 in Hickory, using existing MD 23.
Given that a lot of these freeways never really had a chance, I find it interesting that the Baltimore beltway had provisions added for several of them. The carriageway separation ahead of Exit 41 (https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/maryland600/i-695_ol_exit_041_03.jpg) is one that did not occur to me until I started this Baltimore map.
QuoteWhile the Perring was still on the plans, the Whitemarsh hooked northward toward it instead of the Beltway.
Not on the 1964 BMATS. This "hooking northward" must've been proposed later.
Quote from: froggie on August 03, 2010, 07:07:20 AM
QuoteWhile the Perring was still on the plans, the Whitemarsh hooked northward toward it instead of the Beltway.
Not on the 1964 BMATS. This "hooking northward" must've been proposed later.
Right... that was on the 1973 and 1975 Highway Needs maps.
Was Fayette Street signed as Alternate U.S. 40 at one point? The old USGS Quad shows it as such. Looking through my map collection, I was able to find one map, a 1974 General Drafting map of Baltimore, that also shows Alt. U.S. 40 on Fayette Street.
Looking at GSV, I found a blank guide sign for the northbound ramp to I-83 from Gay Street (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=baltimore,+md&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=43.713406,106.787109&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Baltimore,+Maryland&ll=39.292918,-76.608629&spn=0,0.017123&z=17&layer=c&cbll=39.292844,-76.608508&panoid=tyw1Jk8HAp2X5tqxKYGNrg&cbp=12,288.57,,0,-1.58). What is the deal with it? Was there access from the Fallsway to that ramp at one point and it was decided to remove the contents of the sign to dissuade drivers from jumping the barrier to get to it?
My 1984 and 2002 ADC atlases for Baltimore both show Maryland 45 and 147 heading south of U.S. 1 (North Avenue). I was looking at Historicaerials.com too and their major roads overlay also showed MD-147 heading south of U.S. 1 to end at MD-2. Was this ever the case?
Most likely their major roads overlay comes from TIGER data.
Quote from: Alex on March 17, 2011, 01:38:43 PM
Was Fayette Street signed as Alternate U.S. 40 at one point? The old USGS Quad shows it as such. Looking through my map collection, I was able to find one map, a 1974 General Drafting map of Baltimore, that also shows Alt. U.S. 40 on Fayette Street.
Never seen it signed as such, but the 1938 MD official shows Fayette as Alt 40. It also shows both Old Frederick Road and Edmondson Avenue as US 40, this was in transition to Baltimore National Pike.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdroads.com%2Fmapscans%2F38srcbai.gif&hash=3e658b4457e473a91c0598f970d97bb3785206b3)
Quote from: Alex on April 09, 2011, 12:03:13 PM
Looking at GSV, I found a blank guide sign for the northbound ramp to I-83 from Gay Street (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=baltimore,+md&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=43.713406,106.787109&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Baltimore,+Maryland&ll=39.292918,-76.608629&spn=0,0.017123&z=17&layer=c&cbll=39.292844,-76.608508&panoid=tyw1Jk8HAp2X5tqxKYGNrg&cbp=12,288.57,,0,-1.58). What is the deal with it? Was there access from the Fallsway to that ramp at one point and it was decided to remove the contents of the sign to dissuade drivers from jumping the barrier to get to it?
My 1984 and 2002 ADC atlases for Baltimore both show Maryland 45 and 147 heading south of U.S. 1 (North Avenue). I was looking at Historicaerials.com too and their major roads overlay also showed MD-147 heading south of U.S. 1 to end at MD-2. Was this ever the case?
No official maps have shown 45 or 147 below North Avenue, including when MD 45 was still US 111. On the map, MD 45, 147 and 139 (Charles Street) all had their southern end there, and MD 2 came up through downtown to end at North Avenue.
I find it intriguing that there once was an outer outer loop proposed for the city. However, numbering would be a major issue, seeing that Maryland was about to run out of even-numbered I-x95 routes. Also, I-70 might've become a crosstown route following the Windlass Freeway after a concurrency with I-95 (and I-83 would not go beyond downtown), then crossing the Bay via the Southeast Freeway or perhaps an extension of the Windlass, and continuing to Dover. Just a thought that occurred to me while I was tracing out the east-west route it would take if it were to be planned that way.
Why would numbering be an issue? Or, moreso, why would it need to be an Interstate? Especially when the 1964 BMATS study had it at-grade and there were several indications that it would've become a US 29 extension.
Quote from: froggie on April 15, 2011, 11:31:15 AM
Why would numbering be an issue? Or, moreso, why would it need to be an Interstate? Especially when the 1964 BMATS study had it at-grade and there were several indications that it would've become a US 29 extension.
Haven't you heard about the Truckee-Lake Tahoe freeway? They had bought all the land and even let some of the pre-grading contracts with 90% federal funding, but a pesky bureaucrat realized that there were no available Interstate numbers, so California had to cancel it. So it goes.
Quote from: NE2 on April 15, 2011, 01:15:18 PM
Quote from: froggie on April 15, 2011, 11:31:15 AM
Why would numbering be an issue? Or, moreso, why would it need to be an Interstate? Especially when the 1964 BMATS study had it at-grade and there were several indications that it would've become a US 29 extension.
Haven't you heard about the Truckee-Lake Tahoe freeway? They had bought all the land and even let some of the pre-grading contracts with 90% federal funding, but a pesky bureaucrat realized that there were no available Interstate numbers, so California had to cancel it. So it goes.
That's silly. Lake Tahoe is a body of water, you can't construct a freeway into water.
They were going to drain the lake. NIMBYs complained but screw 'em.
NIMLs you mean
Perhaps, though NIMLs concentrate on proposals to breed giant sharks and the like.
Quote from: NE2 on April 16, 2011, 09:05:38 PM
Perhaps, though NIMLs concentrate on proposals to breed giant sharks and the like.
Speaking of Baltimore, let's speak of Baltimore. I got nothin'.
From the Is I-495 actually part of the Interstate Highway System between I-278 and I-678? (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=6143.msg145102#msg145102) thread.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 26, 2012, 12:24:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayMaster on March 27, 2012, 12:14:58 PM
This reminds me of the Balto Beltway near the FSK Bridge, which is not an Interstate despite the I-695 shields on it.
And right now, Md. 695 (signed as I-695) has gone back to its roots as a "Super-2" highway, because one of the draw spans over Curtis Creek is shut-down and the traffic is light enough to just have one lane in each direction (admittedly with a temporary Jersey wall to prevent head-on crashes).
When did that happen and how long will it persist?
You can see the lane reduction in action at:
http://www.chart.state.md.us/video/video.asp?feed=7101276ec47601b8004606363d235daa
Quote from: Alex on April 26, 2012, 03:13:46 PM
From the Is I-495 actually part of the Interstate Highway System between I-278 and I-678? (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=6143.msg145102#msg145102) thread.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 26, 2012, 12:24:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayMaster on March 27, 2012, 12:14:58 PM
This reminds me of the Balto Beltway near the FSK Bridge, which is not an Interstate despite the I-695 shields on it.
And right now, Md. 695 (signed as I-695) has gone back to its roots as a "Super-2" highway, because one of the draw spans over Curtis Creek is shut-down and the traffic is light enough to just have one lane in each direction (admittedly with a temporary Jersey wall to prevent head-on crashes).
When did that happen and how long will it persist?
You can see the lane reduction in action at:
http://www.chart.state.md.us/video/video.asp?feed=7101276ec47601b8004606363d235daa
It goes back to January, 2012 (in terms of when traffic was first shifted).
See this MdTA press release from late 2011:
DRAWBRIDGE WORK ON I-695 TO RESULT IN MAJOR TRAFFIC PATTERN CHANGES (http://www.mdta.maryland.gov/News/NewsReleases2011#12292011)
And also look at this, which shows MdTA traffic advisories from 2012 for the F.S. Key Bridge and its approaches:
Francis Scott Key Bridge (I-695) Traffic Advisories and Updates (http://www.mdta.maryland.gov/News/FSK_Traffic_Advisories)
I still find it depressing that I-70, I-83, and other freeways in Central Baltimore were never completed. I've always had a different idea for I-83 in the vicinity of I-695, though. Extend the Baltimore-Harrisburg Expressway south of I-695, and run it along the south side of I-695 until it reaches the Jones Falls Expressway north of Exit 12.
Now, I think I like the original plan better.
Another FYI, the good friends of the MDTA are expanding the speed cameras around the Express Toll Lanes up to White Marsh Blvd starting April 30.
I'll be heading up to Baltimore next weekend. Any old or otherwise interesting signage I should look for? I'll most likely just be around the Inner Harbor, so I'm mostly interested in things within walking distance from there.
Quote from: Takumi on July 20, 2012, 06:14:11 PM
I'll be heading up to Baltimore next weekend. Any old or otherwise interesting signage I should look for? I'll most likely just be around the Inner Harbor, so I'm mostly interested in things within walking distance from there.
Plenty of old signs to find in Baltimore, but most of the older signage is away from the Inner Harbor.
Three things I can think of within a possible walking distance:
- An Interstate 83 Maryland shield posted high up at Conway and Light by the Inner Harbor: https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/maryland999/conway_st_eb_at_md-002_nb.jpg
- A second I-83 MD shield at Pratt and President Street: https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/maryland999/pratt_st_eb_at_president_st_01.jpg
- The first in a series of old style Maryland 2 shields along St. Paul Street near the Orleans Street viaduct: https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/maryland002/md-002_sb_after_franklin_st.jpg
Take a look around at the AARoads Baltimore (https://www.aaroads.com/guide.php?page=baltimoremd) page and the associated state highway guides for some other potential finds. I have posted just about everything we have documented so far.
Quote from: Takumi on July 20, 2012, 06:14:11 PM
I'll be heading up to Baltimore next weekend. Any old or otherwise interesting signage I should look for? I'll most likely just be around the Inner Harbor, so I'm mostly interested in things within walking distance from there.
Head up and down MD 2 - plenty of old signs there. State-named I-83 shields all around that corridor. I wouldn't walk too much outside those areas, though, even in daylight. I keep finding more every time I go.
There's an Interstate 295 shield on Paca Street by the Univ. of MD Medical Center. It's fairly new.
Quote from: Steve on July 20, 2012, 07:55:50 PM
Head up and down MD 2 - plenty of old signs there. State-named I-83 shields all around that corridor. I wouldn't walk too much outside those areas, though, even in daylight. I keep finding more every time I go.
eh. walk wherever you want. just don't make an idiot of yourself and others won't make an idiot out of you either.
I remember walking up to an auto body shop which had a yellow STOP sign on the front gate. all kinds of Assorted Riffraff (tm) congregating there.
"cool stop sign... mind if I take a photo?"
"naw go for it"
(no, I don't remember where it is. in Baltimore somewhere.)
Heh, I found a state-named I-95 shield there last year right near a block with a couple *ahem* gentleman's clubs, walking back to Camden Yards from seeing the end of I-83. (Not only that, but said establishments were a block over from city hall. :spin:) The only other people on the street in question were bouncers.
Anyway, I'll be sure to check out MD 2 and the state name I-83 shields. I didn't see the one at Pratt and Light last year, but I may simply have not been looking high enough. The game we'll be attending doesn't start until 7, so if we get there in early-mid afternoon we should have enough time to walk around as well as shopping and general sightseeing. That I-295 shield sounds like a must see, too.
Unfortunately, due to excessive construction delays pretty much the entire way here, I didn't get to go check out any signs mentioned. I did find an MD 40 shield outside M&T Bank Stadium, though.
Update: I saw the I-295 shield but didn't get a photo.