Annex the Suburbs!

[Doctor Whom]

What would be the fairest way of assessing the costs of providing the services that they use while in the city?

Mike

You'd have to offset those costs by the nonresidential taxes to which such people contribute.  People in the District of Columbia complain about having to provide services to the commuters, while conveniently forgetting the huge amount of money that the District collects in nonresidential taxes such as commercial real-estate taxes.  They seem to assume that the residential tax base subsidizes the commercial tax base, when the general rule is that the exact opposite is the case.

[ARMOURERERIC]

What is advocated in this thread was actually implemented by San Deigo in the 1970's and 1980's.

[ARMOURERERIC]

Pittsburgh should have annexed (my knowlege only applies to north side communities) the river communities of Bellvue/Avalon, Ross/Shaler Township, Millvale a good 20 years ago, those communities now have the same demographic negatives of the main city and you get no noticible benefit whan you cross the city limits.

[roadman65]

How did Baldwin, FL escape the clutches of Jacksonville when the rest of Duval County got absorbed?

[NE2]

the rest of Duval County got absorbed?

It didn't.

[Stephane Dumas]

I spotted some discussions on City-Data and Skyscraperpage who mention articles who suggest to dissolve Detroit into Wayne county
http://www.city-data.com/forum/detroit/1742380-dissolving-detroit-into-wayne-county.html
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=202716

[roadman65]

the rest of Duval County got absorbed?

It didn't.

Besides Atlantic, Jacksonville Beach, and Neptune, who are like Baldwin, every other part of the county is within the Jacksonville City Limits.  Its been that way since 68.  These communities were allowed to remain as their own, but they do have voting power in the city.  A person living in Neptune, even though that person has its own government, still can elect the Jacksonville Mayor.

[NE2]

Exactly. Baldwin wasn't the only one; all (?) existing cities remained separate.

[roadman65]

Exactly. Baldwin wasn't the only one; all (?) existing cities remained separate.

Well I did mean the whole bunch, but you hit the nail on the head as those were already corporated before ole Jax took on the entire county.  It is most likely that Durbin, Oceanway, etc. were not corporated so they got absorbed.  Lets say if Orlando decided to annex Orange County, then the existing cities Belle Isle, Englewood, and even Winter Park could not be done, hence why Hunters Creek wants to become independent.  The City of Orlando will not be able to touch them as they did Lake Nona or Universal Studios that were once unicorporated.  I also believe that Lockeed Martin was not originally part of Orlando as its property line just happens to be the City Limits on three sides.

[NE2]

Hunters Creek wants to become independent.

[citation needed]

I also believe that Lockeed Martin was not originally part of Orlando as its property line just happens to be the City Limits on three sides.

It's never been part of Orlando...

[roadman65]

Are you sure about that?  I know someone who works there and said that the fire station up the street on Sand Lake cannot respond to situations at Lockeed Martin due to it being in Orlando City.  He needed help for something and a fireman from the station on Vineland Road responded to the call and explained that even though his station is further, Orange County who operates the other station less than a mile away, cannot come into the city.

I know that Kirkman all the way down is Orlando.  Only Orlovista is Orange County as well as Pine Hills ( we all know why Orlando would not want that community).

[NE2]

http://www.cityoforlando.net/gis/pdf/zoning/ZON_17.pdf

[jwolfer]

Exactly. Baldwin wasn't the only one; all (?) existing cities remained separate.

Well I did mean the whole bunch, but you hit the nail on the head as those were already corporated before ole Jax took on the entire county.  It is most likely that Durbin, Oceanway, etc. were not corporated so they got absorbed.  Lets say if Orlando decided to annex Orange County, then the existing cities Belle Isle, Englewood, and even Winter Park could not be done, hence why Hunters Creek wants to become independent.  The City of Orlando will not be able to touch them as they did Lake Nona or Universal Studios that were once unicorporated.  I also believe that Lockeed Martin was not originally part of Orlando as its property line just happens to be the City Limits on three sides.

Jacksonville functions as the Duval County Government.  People in the beaches cities and Baldwin vote for the mayor of Jacksonville and have representaiton on the city council. In fact the former mayor John Delany was a resident of Neptune Beach

[wphiii]

City-suburb consolidation would absolutely be for the greater benefit in most cases for mid-size cities.

The real problem is, when you're dealing with a bunch of municipalities that all have their own elected officials and service providers (fire, police, sanitation, etc), that's a lot of people who'd be out of a job. It's for that reason that serious consolidation talks have never gotten off the ground here in Pittsburgh, and probably other places as well, which is a shame because a city-county merger would stand to benefit the entire region.

[Molandfreak]

The only Twin Cities suburbs that should exist are: Mendota (not heights) in some larger form, the Stillwater-Hudson vicinity consolidated to two cities, Forest Lake and the area north, Anoka, Elk River and a couple other St. Cloud exurbs, a couple little cities on Lake Minnetonka (excluding Minnetrista), Shakopee, Prior Lake, southern Lakeville, southern Farmington, Rosemount, Hastings-Prescott, and maybe hold on to Burnsville, Bloomington, White Bear Lake, and a larger form of Centerville. Anything else is just urban sprawl that really shouldn't have existed as anything but parts of Minneapolis and Saint Paul.

[Brandon]

City-suburb consolidation would absolutely be for the greater benefit in most cases for mid-size cities.

The real problem is, when you're dealing with a bunch of municipalities that all have their own elected officials and service providers (fire, police, sanitation, etc), that's a lot of people who'd be out of a job. It's for that reason that serious consolidation talks have never gotten off the ground here in Pittsburgh, and probably other places as well, which is a shame because a city-county merger would stand to benefit the entire region.

Even then it might not work, speaking from an Illinois point of view, as there are fire protection districts used by some of these municipalities, separate library districts, sanitary districts, and a myriad mess of overlapping school districts.  Name your special-use district, and it will be a problem in any city-county type merger in Illinois.  I'd guess that's why we've never seen on in the state.

[Sykotyk]

Pittsburgh should have annexed (my knowlege only applies to north side communities) the river communities of Bellvue/Avalon, Ross/Shaler Township, Millvale a good 20 years ago, those communities now have the same demographic negatives of the main city and you get no noticible benefit whan you cross the city limits.

Pittsburgh was a little late to the party compared to Philadelphia. Pittsburgh did get some surrounding land, but when they annexed Allegheny City (the north shore, where the stadiums are up to the first hill or so), the revolt was strong enough to change the rules. Now, the suburb has to agree to annexation. Which, will never happen. It's why Allegheny County can have 1.2 million, and the city of Pittsburgh makes up about 1/4th the population. Meanwhile, i don't know many people in the surrounding area that don't proudly display Pittsburgh paraphernalia and 'steel city' stuff. They obviously love the city, but not enough to be a part of it.

[mapman1071]

Frank Lloyd Wright moved to Oak Park to escape the city.  Imagine that today!

Taliesin West, Frank LLoyd Wright's western home when built In 1937 was 10 miles North of Scottsdale (Northern Border At Indian School Road) and 5 miles West of what is now Fountain Hills at the base of the Mcdowell Mountain Range in the desert. Now it is surrounded on 3 sides by multi-million Dollar Homes and Mcdowell Mountain Preserve on the North Side, the driveway now forms part of N. 104th St (Alma School Road) and E. Cactus Road, Scottsdale, AZ

[Doctor Whom]

This study indicates that the most cost-effective municipalities have populations in the range of 25,000 to 250,000, although the study also allows that YMMV.  This suggests to me that, far from establishing ever larger monolithic municipalities, we should think about carving up some of the big cities that we have, perhaps by setting up borough systems like London's (not New York's).