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Regional Boards => Canada => Topic started by: Roadgeekteen on June 20, 2021, 08:23:37 PM

Title: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 20, 2021, 08:23:37 PM
It has a bizarre loop on some surface roads that brings it somewhat close to Toronto, but it doesn't actually reach to city.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: SkyPesos on June 20, 2021, 08:33:43 PM
Maybe the same reason why NYC doesn’t get served by a x0 US route?
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Alps on June 20, 2021, 09:38:49 PM
It has a bizarre loop on some surface roads that brings it somewhat close to Toronto, but it doesn't actually reach to city.
Too far off a straight line route.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 20, 2021, 10:08:45 PM
It has a bizarre loop on some surface roads that brings it somewhat close to Toronto, but it doesn't actually reach to city.
Too far off a straight line route.
What's the point of the suburban loop then?
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: ghYHZ on June 21, 2021, 09:24:09 AM
It has a bizarre loop on some surface roads that brings it somewhat close to Toronto, but it doesn't actually reach to city.

As much as Toronto would like to think they're the Centre of the Universe....they're not! :)

And here in Nova Scotia...the Trans Canada Highway misses Halifax, the Capital by 100km as it takes a direct route from the NB-NS Border at Amherst to the Newfoundland Ferry at North Sydney. 
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: splashflash on June 21, 2021, 09:55:22 AM
It has a bizarre loop on some surface roads that brings it somewhat close to Toronto, but it doesn't actually reach to city.

As much as Toronto would like to think they're the Centre of the Universe....they're not! :)

And here in Nova Scotia...the Trans Canada Highway misses Halifax, the Capital by 100km as it takes a direct route from the NB-NS Border at Amherst to the Newfoundland Ferry at North Sydney.

The TCH does start/finish in Victoria and skirt Vancouver and bisects the southern part of the Fraser Valley.  It has not taken the most direct route since 1986 when the Coquihalla Highway was built from Hope to Merritt and then Kamloops.  It follows the Fraser River to Lytton and then the Thompson River to Kamloops,, adding about 75 km or 1 1/2 hours to the route. 
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: silverback1065 on June 21, 2021, 10:09:13 AM
Maybe the same reason why NYC doesn’t get served by a x0 US route?

US 1 goes through NYC and that's a main US route
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: SkyPesos on June 21, 2021, 11:09:11 AM
Maybe the same reason why NYC doesn’t get served by a x0 US route?

US 1 goes through NYC and that's a main US route
I know, but for a city its size, you expect it to get both a x1 and x0. Maybe US 20 would’ve went to NYC if US 10 didn’t end in Detroit and used the route to Boston instead, but that’s fictional stuff.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Henry on June 21, 2021, 11:33:15 AM
I've always wondered that myself, but having lots of 400-series highways (mainly 401) should make up for it.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 21, 2021, 12:54:20 PM
Maybe the same reason why NYC doesn’t get served by a x0 US route?
Yeah strange that US 30 and US 40 go to Atlantic City. One should have been routed further north.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Scott5114 on June 21, 2021, 05:00:44 PM
Maybe the same reason why NYC doesn’t get served by a x0 US route?

US 1 goes through NYC and that's a main US route
I know, but for a city its size, you expect it to get both a x1 and x0. Maybe US 20 would’ve went to NYC if US 10 didn’t end in Detroit and used the route to Boston instead, but that’s fictional stuff.

New York's relative dearth of US routes is due mostly to one guy from New York on the US route numbering committee who favored very strict limitations on what qualified to be a US route. He drew up NY's US route system based on his own preferences, then nobody else on the committee agreed with him and didn't follow his example.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: andrepoiy on June 21, 2021, 07:32:02 PM
Not a single non-freeway Ontario Provincial Highway goes within Toronto's borders - although that's for a different reason (due to the province not wanting to pay for them anymore in 1997, and thus transferring the responsibility of the routes (incl. Highway 2, 5, 11, 27, 48, 50) over to the municipality).

As for the TCH, it isn't really taken seriously in Ontario anyways. They're only signed on reassurance markers, and not at junctions, so you can't actually navigate the TCH by signs only.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: wdcrft63 on June 24, 2021, 06:29:50 PM
Australia has a network of National Highways that connect all the major cities. The states number and maintain highways as they please, but the highways in the national system have a distinctive shield. Has Canada ever considered something like this?
https://www.atn.com.au/maps/australian-road-maps.html
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 24, 2021, 07:00:45 PM
Australia has a network of National Highways that connect all the major cities. The states number and maintain highways as they please, but the highways in the national system have a distinctive shield. Has Canada ever considered something like this?
https://www.atn.com.au/maps/australian-road-maps.html
Sounds a bit like the US Highway system.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: ClassicHasClass on June 25, 2021, 01:46:01 PM
Continuing the Australian OT for a moment, that's out of date since many of the states have adopted alphanumeric signage and the old National Route-Highway vs State Highway distinction has all but disappeared as a result. If anything, it's gotten worse since you see hybrid signage in some places currently (VIC comes to mind), so an "A" route may not necessarily be continuously signed as "A" (or, previously, NH/NR).
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 25, 2021, 08:42:56 PM
Continuing the Australian OT for a moment, that's out of date since many of the states have adopted alphanumeric signage and the old National Route-Highway vs State Highway distinction has all but disappeared as a result. If anything, it's gotten worse since you see hybrid signage in some places currently (VIC comes to mind), so an "A" route may not necessarily be continuously signed as "A" (or, previously, NH/NR).
Maybe Australia should have a national system.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: ghYHZ on June 26, 2021, 10:22:45 AM
Canada does have a core system of National Highways that the Federal Government contributes funding for but under the division of powers.....highways fall under Provincial and Territorial jurisdiction......not Ottawa.

https://tc.canada.ca/sites/default/files/migrated/nhs_2007.pdf
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: wdcrft63 on June 26, 2021, 06:23:28 PM
Canada does have a core system of National Highways that the Federal Government contributes funding for but under the division of powers.....highways fall under Provincial and Territorial jurisdiction......not Ottawa.

https://tc.canada.ca/sites/default/files/migrated/nhs_2007.pdf
Thanks...that's exactly what I was asking about. My suggestion is that it might be helpful (to visitors from other parts of Canada or from the U.S.) for these routes to be distinguished in signage in some way.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: andrepoiy on June 26, 2021, 06:44:21 PM
I don't see why Canada would need a national numbering system anyways. Firstly, the country's population is all concentrated in the south, and the population is also pretty much split in two between the east and west.

Let's say Canada had a numbering system similar to the US Route system in the US - there would be only one route that goes coast-to-coast east-west because, there's only one major road that crosses the Manitoba/Ontario border. There would be no route that goes from the US border to the north, save for maybe a highway from BC to Alaska. The country is too large and spread out for any national numbering system to be useful, as there just wouldn't be that much traffic travelling such large distances. Provincial routes do just fine.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: vdeane on June 26, 2021, 10:39:45 PM
I don't see a numbering system like the US routes or interstates working for Canada, for exactly that reason.  The population distribution doesn't support the concept of setting aside some routes in a grid as "transcontinental".  Something more like NY's numbering system, perhaps, which in the 1930 renumbering had numbers 1-99 be the core of the system (with lower numbers being more major, roughly) and 100+ assigned in rough clusters for the more shorter routes.

I would think having some form of national numbering system would make cross-provincial navigation easier, and it seems the western provinces agree, and they voluntarily coordinated the numbering on the TCH.  And then there's the Atlantic provinces, which are the size of US states (or smaller) but have numbering that varies wildly - I could see lots of benefit from such a system there.  That said, the area with the largest population density is also the area least likely to see a national numbered system - good luck getting Québec to agree to be part of such a thing.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: SkyPesos on June 26, 2021, 10:55:11 PM
Yea a grid wouldn't really work for Canada's geography. I may start a fictional Canada national highway numbering system thread soon, though I would give the lower numbers to important routes instead of using a grid, and continue from there. Like Highway 1 to the TCH mainline, Highway 2 to the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, and so on.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: ghYHZ on June 27, 2021, 06:59:51 AM
Yea a grid wouldn't really work for Canada's geography. I may start a fictional Canada national highway numbering system thread soon, though I would give the lower numbers to important routes instead of using a grid, and continue from there. Like Highway 1 to the TCH mainline, Highway 2 to the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, and so on.

Save your time and effort...as I noted above highways are a Provincial/Territorial jurisdiction not Federal. We can't even get two provinces to agree on Covid Quarantine requirements between each! Just like our national Health Care.....the Feds contribute to the funding but it's administered by the provinces.

Here in Nova Scotia.....TCH104 free-flows onto TCH2 at the New Brunswick border. It's not like I have to come off in Amherst and drive the back streets looking for a road to Moncton. And once in New Brunswick......at Riverglade I can take NB1 to US1 at St. Stephen/Calais and NB95 just flows onto I-95 at Woodstock/Houlton. At the Quebec Border TCH2 becomes A-85   

Ontario and Quebec...... the two most populous Provinces have only two major highway crossings: A-20 to ON401 and A-40 to ON417 (TCH). There are also 5 bridges at Ottawa/Gatineau and the northern TCH route (QC117/ON66) in the Abitibi-Temiscamingue  The other routes are secondary including a couple of bridges and ferries across the Ottawa River.

And at the Ontario Manitoba Border there is but one single two-lane highway...the TCH and it's not even a divided highway. There's also a single Canadian National Railway track and a Canadian Pacific Railway track. That's all that connects eastern and western Canada between the Minnesota Border.....all the way to the Artic. This is fly-over country vs the 1000 mile drive through the woods of Northern Ontario!
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: 1 on June 27, 2021, 07:14:22 AM
Canada has some extensions of US route numbers. Maybe these could become standard? (Quebec currently has rules for what routes beginning with 1, 2, 3, and 4-9 are, but they're all 3 digits; numbers below 100 could be used and reserved for US route extensions.)
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 01:08:25 PM
Yea a grid wouldn't really work for Canada's geography. I may start a fictional Canada national highway numbering system thread soon, though I would give the lower numbers to important routes instead of using a grid, and continue from there. Like Highway 1 to the TCH mainline, Highway 2 to the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, and so on.

Save your time and effort...as I noted above highways are a Provincial/Territorial jurisdiction not Federal. We can't even get two provinces to agree on Covid Quarantine requirements between each! Just like our national Health Care.....the Feds contribute to the funding but it's administered by the provinces.

Here in Nova Scotia.....TCH104 free-flows onto TCH2 at the New Brunswick border. It's not like I have to come off in Amherst and drive the back streets looking for a road to Moncton. And once in New Brunswick......at Riverglade I can take NB1 to US1 at St. Stephen/Calais and NB95 just flows onto I-95 at Woodstock/Houlton. At the Quebec Border TCH2 becomes A-85   

Ontario and Quebec...... the two most populous Provinces have only two major highway crossings: A-20 to ON401 and A-40 to ON417 (TCH). There are also 5 bridges at Ottawa/Gatineau and the northern TCH route (QC117/ON66) in the Abitibi-Temiscamingue  The other routes are secondary including a couple of bridges and ferries across the Ottawa River.

And at the Ontario Manitoba Border there is but one single two-lane highway...the TCH and it's not even a divided highway. There's also a single Canadian National Railway track and a Canadian Pacific Railway track. That's all that connects eastern and western Canada between the Minnesota Border.....all the way to the Artic. This is fly-over country vs the 1000 mile drive through the woods of Northern Ontario!
When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: ghYHZ on June 27, 2021, 02:10:39 PM
When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.

Unless it was for essential travel.......that hasn't been possible for the past 16 months. And besides.....a lot of Canadians just wouldn't do it. Not worth the hassles encountered now at the US Border for the little time and mileage saved:

Toronto-Winnipeg via Sault Ste Marie and Duluth: 21 hrs and 1975 km
Toronto-Winnipeg via Sault Ste Marie and Thunder Bay: 22 hrs and 2080 km 
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 02:12:44 PM
When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.

Unless it was for essential travel.......that hasn't been possible for the past 16 months. And besides.....a lot of Canadians just wouldn't do it. Not worth the hassles encountered now at the US Border for the little time and mileage saved:

Toronto-Winnipeg via Sault Ste Marie and Duluth: 21 hrs and 1975 km
Toronto-Winnipeg via Sault Ste Marie and Thunder Bay: 22 hrs and 2080 km
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Toronto,+ON,+Canada/Winnipeg,+MB,+Canada/@45.6613025,-92.8604282,6z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89d4cb90d7c63ba5:0x323555502ab4c477!2m2!1d-79.3831843!2d43.653226!1m5!1m1!1s0x52ea73fbf91a2b11:0x2b2a1afac6b9ca64!2m2!1d-97.1383744!2d49.895136!3e0

Toronto to Winnipeg via Chicago is faster
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: ghYHZ on June 27, 2021, 02:20:29 PM
Toronto to Winnipeg via Chicago is faster

Does that include the delays at the the border and traffic through Chicago? For a hour and a half time saving....again not worth the hassle!
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: vdeane on June 27, 2021, 07:50:00 PM
When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.

Unless it was for essential travel.......that hasn't been possible for the past 16 months. And besides.....a lot of Canadians just wouldn't do it. Not worth the hassles encountered now at the US Border for the little time and mileage saved:

Toronto-Winnipeg via Sault Ste Marie and Duluth: 21 hrs and 1975 km
Toronto-Winnipeg via Sault Ste Marie and Thunder Bay: 22 hrs and 2080 km 
Surprised you missed the obvious one: Toronto-Winnipeg via Detroit and Chicago: 20-21 hours and 2211 km, and nearly all freeway outside of Manitoba.  Google doesn't even like the Duluth route - have to get clever about setting a point to make it do that one.  The default route uses the ferry over Lake Michigan.

Yea a grid wouldn't really work for Canada's geography. I may start a fictional Canada national highway numbering system thread soon, though I would give the lower numbers to important routes instead of using a grid, and continue from there. Like Highway 1 to the TCH mainline, Highway 2 to the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, and so on.

Save your time and effort...as I noted above highways are a Provincial/Territorial jurisdiction not Federal. We can't even get two provinces to agree on Covid Quarantine requirements between each! Just like our national Health Care.....the Feds contribute to the funding but it's administered by the provinces.
The US routes are state jurisdiction and not federal too.  The federal government isn't even remotely involved in them (AASHTO is a voluntary organization of the state DOTs).  The interstates are also largely state jurisdiction too, though FHWA has interest in them.  I've never understood the places that tie route shields to ownership/maintenance jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 07:52:47 PM
Toronto to Vancouver:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Toronto,+ON,+Canada/Vancouver,+BC,+Canada/@45.6949519,-110.2318401,5z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89d4cb90d7c63ba5:0x323555502ab4c477!2m2!1d-79.3831843!2d43.653226!1m5!1m1!1s0x548673f143a94fb3:0xbb9196ea9b81f38b!2m2!1d-123.1207375!2d49.2827291!3e0

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Toronto,+ON,+Canada/Vancouver,+BC,+Canada/@48.9985049,-97.0702201,5z/data=!4m19!4m18!1m10!1m1!1s0x89d4cb90d7c63ba5:0x323555502ab4c477!2m2!1d-79.3831843!2d43.653226!3m4!1m2!1d-89.8930731!2d48.6482335!3s0x4d58ac2291272027:0xb15cc93ad641080b!1m5!1m1!1s0x548673f143a94fb3:0xbb9196ea9b81f38b!2m2!1d-123.1207375!2d49.2827291!3e0

going through the US saves 5 hours, still saves time assuming an hour wait at the border.

Also 10000th post!
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Rothman on June 27, 2021, 08:16:09 PM
When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.

Unless it was for essential travel.......that hasn't been possible for the past 16 months. And besides.....a lot of Canadians just wouldn't do it. Not worth the hassles encountered now at the US Border for the little time and mileage saved:

Toronto-Winnipeg via Sault Ste Marie and Duluth: 21 hrs and 1975 km
Toronto-Winnipeg via Sault Ste Marie and Thunder Bay: 22 hrs and 2080 km 
Surprised you missed the obvious one: Toronto-Winnipeg via Detroit and Chicago: 20-21 hours and 2211 km, and nearly all freeway outside of Manitoba.  Google doesn't even like the Duluth route - have to get clever about setting a point to make it do that one.  The default route uses the ferry over Lake Michigan.

Yea a grid wouldn't really work for Canada's geography. I may start a fictional Canada national highway numbering system thread soon, though I would give the lower numbers to important routes instead of using a grid, and continue from there. Like Highway 1 to the TCH mainline, Highway 2 to the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, and so on.

Save your time and effort...as I noted above highways are a Provincial/Territorial jurisdiction not Federal. We can't even get two provinces to agree on Covid Quarantine requirements between each! Just like our national Health Care.....the Feds contribute to the funding but it's administered by the provinces.
The US routes are state jurisdiction and not federal too.  The federal government isn't even remotely involved in them (AASHTO is a voluntary organization of the state DOTs).  The interstates are also largely state jurisdiction too, though FHWA has interest in them.  I've never understood the places that tie route shields to ownership/maintenance jurisdiction.
Well...you can spend federal funds on US Highways, which requires FHWA signoff.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: vdeane on June 27, 2021, 08:51:01 PM
When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.

Unless it was for essential travel.......that hasn't been possible for the past 16 months. And besides.....a lot of Canadians just wouldn't do it. Not worth the hassles encountered now at the US Border for the little time and mileage saved:

Toronto-Winnipeg via Sault Ste Marie and Duluth: 21 hrs and 1975 km
Toronto-Winnipeg via Sault Ste Marie and Thunder Bay: 22 hrs and 2080 km 
Surprised you missed the obvious one: Toronto-Winnipeg via Detroit and Chicago: 20-21 hours and 2211 km, and nearly all freeway outside of Manitoba.  Google doesn't even like the Duluth route - have to get clever about setting a point to make it do that one.  The default route uses the ferry over Lake Michigan.

Yea a grid wouldn't really work for Canada's geography. I may start a fictional Canada national highway numbering system thread soon, though I would give the lower numbers to important routes instead of using a grid, and continue from there. Like Highway 1 to the TCH mainline, Highway 2 to the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, and so on.

Save your time and effort...as I noted above highways are a Provincial/Territorial jurisdiction not Federal. We can't even get two provinces to agree on Covid Quarantine requirements between each! Just like our national Health Care.....the Feds contribute to the funding but it's administered by the provinces.
The US routes are state jurisdiction and not federal too.  The federal government isn't even remotely involved in them (AASHTO is a voluntary organization of the state DOTs).  The interstates are also largely state jurisdiction too, though FHWA has interest in them.  I've never understood the places that tie route shields to ownership/maintenance jurisdiction.
Well...you can spend federal funds on US Highways, which requires FHWA signoff.
You can spend federal funds on most state routes and many local routes too.  That's because of the NHS and federal aid systems, not because US routes are somehow special.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: dmuzika on June 28, 2021, 02:02:35 AM
To answer the original question, the Trans-Canada Highway's original alignment is part of a compromise. According to A Road for Canada: The Illustrated Story of the Trans‑Canada (Daniel Francis, 2006), when the Trans-Canada Highway alignment was being determined, it was originally envisioned as a single coast-to-coast highway, as opposed to the multiple routes that exist today. The more direct all-Canadian route from Quebec to Western Canada (preferred by TCH planners) was to go through Ottawa and Northern Ontario, bypassing the more-populated Southern Ontario; however, the Ontario provincial preferred a route that passed further south along the St. Lawrence River. A compromise was reached where it would follow what is now known as the "Central Ontario Route" and "Georgian Route" between Ottawa and Sudbury (Hwy 17 between Sudbury and Ottawa was added to TCH later on).

In reality, it served neither route, except for the fine folks of Peterborough, especially when Hwy 401 was built. If ever there could be a section of highway that could become the "Historical Trans-Canada Highway", that could probably be it. It would make more sense to reroute it to follow Hwys 400 & 401 through Toronto.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 28, 2021, 02:06:41 AM
To answer the original question, the Trans-Canada Highway's original alignment is part of a compromise. According to A Road for Canada: The Illustrated Story of the Trans‑Canada (Daniel Francis, 2006), when the Trans-Canada Highway alignment was being determined, it was originally envisioned as a single coast-to-coast highway, as opposed to the multiple routes that exist today. The more direct all-Canadian route from Quebec to Western Canada (preferred by TCH planners) was to go through Ottawa and Northern Ontario, bypassing the more-populated Southern Ontario; however, the Ontario provincial preferred a route that passed further south along the St. Lawrence River. A compromise was reached where it would follow what is now known as the "Central Ontario Route" and "Georgian Route" between Ottawa and Sudbury (Hwy 17 between Sudbury and Ottawa was added to TCH later on).

In reality, it served neither route, except for the fine folks of Peterborough, especially when Hwy 401 was built. If ever there could be a section of highway that could become the "Historical Trans-Canada Highway", that could probably be it. It would make more sense to reroute it to follow Hwys 400 & 401 through Toronto.
The highway should have Niagara Falls and Windsor branches.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: ghYHZ on June 28, 2021, 04:33:52 AM
The highway should have Niagara Falls and Windsor branches.

it already does.....the QEW and the 401.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Rothman on June 28, 2021, 06:19:24 AM
When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.

Unless it was for essential travel.......that hasn't been possible for the past 16 months. And besides.....a lot of Canadians just wouldn't do it. Not worth the hassles encountered now at the US Border for the little time and mileage saved:

Toronto-Winnipeg via Sault Ste Marie and Duluth: 21 hrs and 1975 km
Toronto-Winnipeg via Sault Ste Marie and Thunder Bay: 22 hrs and 2080 km 
Surprised you missed the obvious one: Toronto-Winnipeg via Detroit and Chicago: 20-21 hours and 2211 km, and nearly all freeway outside of Manitoba.  Google doesn't even like the Duluth route - have to get clever about setting a point to make it do that one.  The default route uses the ferry over Lake Michigan.

Yea a grid wouldn't really work for Canada's geography. I may start a fictional Canada national highway numbering system thread soon, though I would give the lower numbers to important routes instead of using a grid, and continue from there. Like Highway 1 to the TCH mainline, Highway 2 to the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, and so on.

Save your time and effort...as I noted above highways are a Provincial/Territorial jurisdiction not Federal. We can't even get two provinces to agree on Covid Quarantine requirements between each! Just like our national Health Care.....the Feds contribute to the funding but it's administered by the provinces.
The US routes are state jurisdiction and not federal too.  The federal government isn't even remotely involved in them (AASHTO is a voluntary organization of the state DOTs).  The interstates are also largely state jurisdiction too, though FHWA has interest in them.  I've never understood the places that tie route shields to ownership/maintenance jurisdiction.
Well...you can spend federal funds on US Highways, which requires FHWA signoff.
You can spend federal funds on most state routes and many local routes too.  That's because of the NHS and federal aid systems, not because US routes are somehow special.
Sure, but we were talking about the federal government being involved with US highways. Because of broad Federal funding eligibility, there's always some level of involvement.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: GaryV on June 28, 2021, 08:37:29 AM
But via Detroit and Chicago, it's under 21 hours, even though it's 2223 km.

Even if you decided to go through Duluth, it's under 21 hours to go via Sarnia and through Michigan.

I suspect the further west you go (e.g. Calgary, Vancouver) the more distance driving through the US the more your time is reduced compared to an all-Canada route.

Of course all this assumes that you are allowed to cross the border.
 
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: froggie on June 28, 2021, 09:51:38 AM
FWIW, going from northern Vermont to Minneapolis via Canada may only save me an hour, but it also saves me over 100 miles.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: vdeane on June 28, 2021, 02:05:35 PM
To answer the original question, the Trans-Canada Highway's original alignment is part of a compromise. According to A Road for Canada: The Illustrated Story of the Trans‑Canada (Daniel Francis, 2006), when the Trans-Canada Highway alignment was being determined, it was originally envisioned as a single coast-to-coast highway, as opposed to the multiple routes that exist today. The more direct all-Canadian route from Quebec to Western Canada (preferred by TCH planners) was to go through Ottawa and Northern Ontario, bypassing the more-populated Southern Ontario; however, the Ontario provincial preferred a route that passed further south along the St. Lawrence River. A compromise was reached where it would follow what is now known as the "Central Ontario Route" and "Georgian Route" between Ottawa and Sudbury (Hwy 17 between Sudbury and Ottawa was added to TCH later on).

In reality, it served neither route, except for the fine folks of Peterborough, especially when Hwy 401 was built. If ever there could be a section of highway that could become the "Historical Trans-Canada Highway", that could probably be it. It would make more sense to reroute it to follow Hwys 400 & 401 through Toronto.
Didn't ON 11 from North Bay to Nipigon also predate ON 17 along Lake Superior?  How did the connection from Sudbury to ON 11 work, then?  Did it backtrack to North Bay?

When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.

Unless it was for essential travel.......that hasn't been possible for the past 16 months. And besides.....a lot of Canadians just wouldn't do it. Not worth the hassles encountered now at the US Border for the little time and mileage saved:

Toronto-Winnipeg via Sault Ste Marie and Duluth: 21 hrs and 1975 km
Toronto-Winnipeg via Sault Ste Marie and Thunder Bay: 22 hrs and 2080 km 
Surprised you missed the obvious one: Toronto-Winnipeg via Detroit and Chicago: 20-21 hours and 2211 km, and nearly all freeway outside of Manitoba.  Google doesn't even like the Duluth route - have to get clever about setting a point to make it do that one.  The default route uses the ferry over Lake Michigan.

Yea a grid wouldn't really work for Canada's geography. I may start a fictional Canada national highway numbering system thread soon, though I would give the lower numbers to important routes instead of using a grid, and continue from there. Like Highway 1 to the TCH mainline, Highway 2 to the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, and so on.

Save your time and effort...as I noted above highways are a Provincial/Territorial jurisdiction not Federal. We can't even get two provinces to agree on Covid Quarantine requirements between each! Just like our national Health Care.....the Feds contribute to the funding but it's administered by the provinces.
The US routes are state jurisdiction and not federal too.  The federal government isn't even remotely involved in them (AASHTO is a voluntary organization of the state DOTs).  The interstates are also largely state jurisdiction too, though FHWA has interest in them.  I've never understood the places that tie route shields to ownership/maintenance jurisdiction.
Well...you can spend federal funds on US Highways, which requires FHWA signoff.
You can spend federal funds on most state routes and many local routes too.  That's because of the NHS and federal aid systems, not because US routes are somehow special.
Sure, but we were talking about the federal government being involved with US highways. Because of broad Federal funding eligibility, there's always some level of involvement.
You're getting pedantic.  The point is that there's nothing special about the shield, and there's no more involvement with US routes than with any other road (unlike, say, the interstates, which have performance measures attached, require FHWA approval to designate, new construction must meet federal standards or have approved exemptions, etc.).  ghYHZ was making it sound like a federal route system require the federal government to own the roads (a la Mexico) or at least be as involved as the US federal government is with the interstates.  The point is that a country-wide numbering system on important routes does not require such.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: andrepoiy on June 28, 2021, 02:26:33 PM
Honestly, Ontario operates on the "signs indicate who owns the road", and that's probably why we think that the federal government must own those roads to be able to sign it as a national road.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: dmuzika on June 28, 2021, 08:16:33 PM
To answer the original question, the Trans-Canada Highway's original alignment is part of a compromise. According to A Road for Canada: The Illustrated Story of the Trans‑Canada (Daniel Francis, 2006), when the Trans-Canada Highway alignment was being determined, it was originally envisioned as a single coast-to-coast highway, as opposed to the multiple routes that exist today. The more direct all-Canadian route from Quebec to Western Canada (preferred by TCH planners) was to go through Ottawa and Northern Ontario, bypassing the more-populated Southern Ontario; however, the Ontario provincial preferred a route that passed further south along the St. Lawrence River. A compromise was reached where it would follow what is now known as the "Central Ontario Route" and "Georgian Route" between Ottawa and Sudbury (Hwy 17 between Sudbury and Ottawa was added to TCH later on).

In reality, it served neither route, except for the fine folks of Peterborough, especially when Hwy 401 was built. If ever there could be a section of highway that could become the "Historical Trans-Canada Highway", that could probably be it. It would make more sense to reroute it to follow Hwys 400 & 401 through Toronto.
Didn't ON 11 from North Bay to Nipigon also predate ON 17 along Lake Superior?  How did the connection from Sudbury to ON 11 work, then?  Did it backtrack to North Bay?

ON 11 predates ON 17 in crossing Northern Ontario, but ON 17 around Lake Superior was constructed as part of the original Trans-Canada Highway (post WWII). As I understand, ON 11 was added later.

The same applies to TCH 1 in BC. The first Trans-Provincial Highway was BC 3, with the section between Revelstoke and Golden being constructed as the part of the upgrades and the site of the official grand opening being located at Rogers Pass. The two towns were originally connected by the Big Bend Highway which followed the Columbia River (BC 23 north is part of the original route with other sections flooded when the dam was built), but it was an extra 5 hours of travel time. In the winter the section was closed and cars were ferried in railway cars.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: dmuzika on June 29, 2021, 12:42:20 AM
Yea a grid wouldn't really work for Canada's geography. I may start a fictional Canada national highway numbering system thread soon, though I would give the lower numbers to important routes instead of using a grid, and continue from there. Like Highway 1 to the TCH mainline, Highway 2 to the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, and so on.

Save your time and effort...as I noted above highways are a Provincial/Territorial jurisdiction not Federal. We can't even get two provinces to agree on Covid Quarantine requirements between each! Just like our national Health Care.....the Feds contribute to the funding but it's administered by the provinces.

Here in Nova Scotia.....TCH104 free-flows onto TCH2 at the New Brunswick border. It's not like I have to come off in Amherst and drive the back streets looking for a road to Moncton. And once in New Brunswick......at Riverglade I can take NB1 to US1 at St. Stephen/Calais and NB95 just flows onto I-95 at Woodstock/Houlton. At the Quebec Border TCH2 becomes A-85   

Ontario and Quebec...... the two most populous Provinces have only two major highway crossings: A-20 to ON401 and A-40 to ON417 (TCH). There are also 5 bridges at Ottawa/Gatineau and the northern TCH route (QC117/ON66) in the Abitibi-Temiscamingue  The other routes are secondary including a couple of bridges and ferries across the Ottawa River.

And at the Ontario Manitoba Border there is but one single two-lane highway...the TCH and it's not even a divided highway. There's also a single Canadian National Railway track and a Canadian Pacific Railway track. That's all that connects eastern and western Canada between the Minnesota Border.....all the way to the Artic. This is fly-over country vs the 1000 mile drive through the woods of Northern Ontario!

It would have been nice if the Atlantic Provinces would have renumbered their highways to have the same number along the TCH, especially since they participated in the consistently numbered Route 2 between Halifax and Windsor, ON.

Out west they seemed more willing to renumber highways to make way for the TCH.  Alberta switched its Hwys 1 & 2 while Saskatchewan switched its Hwys 1 & 4 designations for the mainline. For the Yellowhead, Manitoba renumbered Hwy 4 while Saskatchewan renumbered sections of Hwy 5 (west of Saskatoon), Hwy 14 (east of Saskatoon), and its original Hwy 16 (present-day Hwy 48).

Quebec and Ontario will do whatever they want.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: SkyPesos on June 29, 2021, 09:04:49 AM
^ I thought the highway number 1 isn’t currently used in Ontario. If they’re forced to change over their section of the TCH to highway 1, it shouldn’t be that hard for them. Quebec is a different story.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: dmuzika on June 29, 2021, 02:02:23 PM
^ I thought the highway number 1 isn’t currently used in Ontario. If they’re forced to change over their section of the TCH to highway 1, it shouldn’t be that hard for them. Quebec is a different story.

Politics aside, renumbering Hwy 17 to Hwy 1 seems pretty doable. What would you do with Hwy 417? It would be a hard sell to renumber Hwy 401 to match the new Hwy 1. Would you renumber Hwy 417 to Hwy 1 as well?

I wonder if Quebec could be convinced to renumber its TCH mainline to A-10 (basically 01 reversed)? It wouldn't follow the grid but might work. Saying that, they would probably be very resistant to any change.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: ghYHZ on June 29, 2021, 06:12:13 PM
And in Nova Scotia......Freeways/Controlled Access Highways are in the 100 Series. Currently the TCH is 104, 105 and 106.

NS101 and it's original parallel alignment is Trunk 1 through the Annapolis Valley between Halifax and Yarmouth and about 90 km from the closest point on the  Trans Canada.

If you took that '1' for the Trans Canada it would no longer follow the NS designation for a  Freeway/Controlled Access Highway.

A costly renumbering of the Province's highways for no good reason.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: zzcarp on June 29, 2021, 07:46:24 PM
When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.

Unless it was for essential travel.......that hasn't been possible for the past 16 months. And besides.....a lot of Canadians just wouldn't do it. Not worth the hassles encountered now at the US Border for the little time and mileage saved:

Toronto-Winnipeg via Sault Ste Marie and Duluth: 21 hrs and 1975 km
Toronto-Winnipeg via Sault Ste Marie and Thunder Bay: 22 hrs and 2080 km

Pre-COVID-19, that is simply not true. Even with the US border security theater inconvenience, many Canadians still used the roads in the States to get from one part of Canada to the other. Our gas is cheaper, our speed limits are higher, and any other goods one buys along the way are cheaper and taxed less. And the farther west one is traveling, the more the savings time-wise.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: dmuzika on June 29, 2021, 08:51:25 PM
And in Nova Scotia......Freeways/Controlled Access Highways are in the 100 Series. Currently the TCH is 104, 105 and 106.

NS101 and it's original parallel alignment is Trunk 1 through the Annapolis Valley between Halifax and Yarmouth and about 90 km from the closest point on the  Trans Canada.

If you took that '1' for the Trans Canada it would no longer follow the NS designation for a  Freeway/Controlled Access Highway.

A costly renumbering of the Province's highways for no good reason.


Just switch 1 w/ 4 and 101 w/ 104. All good.

Back to reality, are there plans to move the TCH designation to Hwy 104 on Cape Breton Island if/when it's extended to Sydney? It's interesting that TCH 105 is the only section of the TCH that's not considered part of the National Highway System.

Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: JREwing78 on June 30, 2021, 12:49:25 AM
When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.

Unless it was for essential travel.......that hasn't been possible for the past 16 months. And besides.....a lot of Canadians just wouldn't do it.

A lot of Canadians *can't* do it - apparently freight with both a Canadian origin and destination has to remain within Canadian borders (for customs reasons). So a freight load from Nova Scotia to Alberta has to go through Quebec and Ontario despite being cheaper and faster to go through the States.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:24:06 AM
When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.

Unless it was for essential travel.......that hasn't been possible for the past 16 months. And besides.....a lot of Canadians just wouldn't do it.

A lot of Canadians *can't* do it - apparently freight with both a Canadian origin and destination has to remain within Canadian borders (for customs reasons). So a freight load from Nova Scotia to Alberta has to go through Quebec and Ontario despite being cheaper and faster to go through the States.
Yeah trucks are a different story than cars.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on June 30, 2021, 03:58:26 AM
^ I thought the highway number 1 isn’t currently used in Ontario. If they’re forced to change over their section of the TCH to highway 1, it shouldn’t be that hard for them. Quebec is a different story.

Politics aside, renumbering Hwy 17 to Hwy 1 seems pretty doable. What would you do with Hwy 417? It would be a hard sell to renumber Hwy 401 to match the new Hwy 1. Would you renumber Hwy 417 to Hwy 1 as well?

Simple. make it 4001.  :bigass:
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: froggie on June 30, 2021, 10:59:07 AM
When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.

Unless it was for essential travel.......that hasn't been possible for the past 16 months. And besides.....a lot of Canadians just wouldn't do it.

A lot of Canadians *can't* do it - apparently freight with both a Canadian origin and destination has to remain within Canadian borders (for customs reasons). So a freight load from Nova Scotia to Alberta has to go through Quebec and Ontario despite being cheaper and faster to go through the States.

I realize we're talking about driving here, but I'm not certain this freight requirement is true for trains.  CN has a mainline that passes through two northern Minnesota counties (between Warroad and Baudette).
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: GaryV on June 30, 2021, 11:14:29 AM
CN has tracks that go as far as New Orleans:

https://www.cn.ca/en/our-services/maps-and-network/

In the US, there is a Jones Act that requires shipments between US ports to use US flagged ships.  Canada has something similar:  https://maritimetrades.org/canadas-coasting-trade-act/

But is there a land (rail and or road) version of these? 
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: vdeane on June 30, 2021, 01:19:43 PM
When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.

Unless it was for essential travel.......that hasn't been possible for the past 16 months. And besides.....a lot of Canadians just wouldn't do it.

A lot of Canadians *can't* do it - apparently freight with both a Canadian origin and destination has to remain within Canadian borders (for customs reasons). So a freight load from Nova Scotia to Alberta has to go through Quebec and Ontario despite being cheaper and faster to go through the States.
Huh.  I could have sworn that I read that a bunch of Canadian trucks cut through the US because it's on faster/higher quality roads.  I know I certainly see enough trucks with Alberta, Manitoba, and New Brunswick plates on the Thruway.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:20:30 PM
When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.

Unless it was for essential travel.......that hasn't been possible for the past 16 months. And besides.....a lot of Canadians just wouldn't do it.

A lot of Canadians *can't* do it - apparently freight with both a Canadian origin and destination has to remain within Canadian borders (for customs reasons). So a freight load from Nova Scotia to Alberta has to go through Quebec and Ontario despite being cheaper and faster to go through the States.

I realize we're talking about driving here, but I'm not certain this freight requirement is true for trains.  CN has a mainline that passes through two northern Minnesota counties (between Warroad and Baudette).
Are the trains sealed when going through America?
When driving between western and eastern Canada it's faster to go through the US.

Unless it was for essential travel.......that hasn't been possible for the past 16 months. And besides.....a lot of Canadians just wouldn't do it.

A lot of Canadians *can't* do it - apparently freight with both a Canadian origin and destination has to remain within Canadian borders (for customs reasons). So a freight load from Nova Scotia to Alberta has to go through Quebec and Ontario despite being cheaper and faster to go through the States.
Huh.  I could have sworn that I read that a bunch of Canadian trucks cut through the US because it's on faster/higher quality roads.  I know I certainly see enough trucks with Alberta, Manitoba, and New Brunswick plates on the Thruway.
Some trucks might be able to do it idk
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: ghYHZ on July 01, 2021, 08:04:51 AM
I realize we're talking about driving here, but I'm not certain this freight requirement is true for trains.  CN has a mainline that passes through two northern Minnesota counties (between Warroad and Baudette).

Back in the 50's Canadian National had a passenger train on this route from Winnipeg to Port Arthur (Thunder Bay) and Duluth It crossed into the US at Warroad, Minnesota....back into Canada at Rainy River, Ontario....then at Fort Frances ON the train split with one section crossing back into the US again at International Falls MN and continuing onto Duluth. The Winnipeg-Thunder Bay train passing through the US lasted into the VIA Rail era.

Canadian Pacific’s Montreal to Boston train crossed into the US from Quebec to serve Richford, Vermont then back into Canada at Glenton QC and finally back into the US again at North Troy VT......all within 20 miles!

Trains from Detroit to Buffalo and New York City ran on 250 miles of New York Central (later Penn Central then Conrail) track across southern Ontario. Multiple trains a day, some with sleeping cars only. Hundreds of passengers passing thru Canada daily between US destinations and probably some not even realizing they were in Canada. Customs inspections were done but usually just a head-count (oh how simple things were pre 9-11 !!) Amtrak had a train on this route between Buffalo and Detroit that lasted ‘till 1979.

And there was VIA Rail Canada's 'Atlantic' across Maine.......

There were different procedures in handling the "Atlantic" over the years. When it was a Canadian Pacific train there was usually just a cursory inspection of coach passengers by US Customs. Sleeping car passengers were just left alone. The trains made several stops in Maine at Vanceboro, Danforth, Mattawamkeag, Brownville Jct., Greenville and Jackman. Local passengers were handled between US stops but anyone boarding in the US and going to Canada was checked by Canada Customs when the trains reached McAdam New Brunswick or Megantic, Quebec. This was the same procedure when VIA took over and extended the Atlantic through to Halifax in Oct. 1979 and was still in effect when the Atlantic was first discontinued in Nov. 1981.

When the Atlantic was reinstated in June 1985 there was a whole new set of rules: Now US Customs/INS insisted everyone would be inspected. Even the Sleeping Car passengers were woke eastbound at 3am ET in Jackman, Maine. Westbound wasn’t as bad: 9pm ET (10pm AT) at Vanceboro.

It took a couple of years of negotiations but eventually the train was 'Sealed' across the US with a metal 'Tag' being placed on all doors except in the one car where the US Customs Inspector rode.....only checking those getting off in the US. The 'Atlantic' was discontinued in December 1994.
Title: MOVED: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Alps on September 14, 2021, 12:23:55 AM
Discussion of fictional numbering has been moved to Fictional Highways (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?board=20.0).

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30176.0
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: dmuzika on October 12, 2021, 12:43:11 PM
I was wondering if had any insight on the ON 66/QC 117/A 15 leg of the Trans-Canada Highway between Montreal and ON 11 as it seems like an odd addition to the TCH. According to Google Maps, it's the shortest route between Montreal and Thunder Bay (and by extension, Western Canada), but is it actually widely used by cross-country traffic? Do trucks use that route or would they usually go through Ottawa? For reference, according to Google Maps, the distance and time between Thunder Bay and Montreal via the three main different TCH combinations is as follows:
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: cbeach40 on October 13, 2021, 11:33:40 AM
I was wondering if had any insight on the ON 66/QC 117/A 15 leg of the Trans-Canada Highway between Montreal and ON 11 as it seems like an odd addition to the TCH. According to Google Maps, it's the shortest route between Montreal and Thunder Bay (and by extension, Western Canada), but is it actually widely used by cross-country traffic? Do trucks use that route or would they usually go through Ottawa? For reference, according to Google Maps, the distance and time between Thunder Bay and Montreal via the three main different TCH combinations is as follows:
  • ON 11, ON 61, QC 117, A 15 via Cochrane and Val-d'Or: 1602 km (18 hr 26 min)
  • ON 11, ON 17/417, A 40 via Cochrane and Ottawa: 1655 km (17 hr 46 min)
  • ON 17/417, A 40 via Sault Ste Marie and Ottawa: 1685 km (18 hr 10 min)

I'm sure there's more than zero, but I would suspect that the route through Val-d'Or et al was lobbied for so Quebec and Ontario could grab some federal cash for those roads. I mean, that's the primary reason the Central Ontario Route exists, no one is driving through between Ottawa and Sudbury via Peterborough and Orillia for any practical reason.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: dmuzika on October 13, 2021, 05:00:55 PM
I was wondering if had any insight on the ON 66/QC 117/A 15 leg of the Trans-Canada Highway between Montreal and ON 11 as it seems like an odd addition to the TCH. According to Google Maps, it's the shortest route between Montreal and Thunder Bay (and by extension, Western Canada), but is it actually widely used by cross-country traffic? Do trucks use that route or would they usually go through Ottawa? For reference, according to Google Maps, the distance and time between Thunder Bay and Montreal via the three main different TCH combinations is as follows:
  • ON 11, ON 61, QC 117, A 15 via Cochrane and Val-d'Or: 1602 km (18 hr 26 min)
  • ON 11, ON 17/417, A 40 via Cochrane and Ottawa: 1655 km (17 hr 46 min)
  • ON 17/417, A 40 via Sault Ste Marie and Ottawa: 1685 km (18 hr 10 min)

I'm sure there's more than zero, but I would suspect that the route through Val-d'Or et al was lobbied for so Quebec and Ontario could grab some federal cash for those roads. I mean, that's the primary reason the Central Ontario Route exists, no one is driving through between Ottawa and Sudbury via Peterborough and Orillia for any practical reason.

Fair enough. Out west, the Yellowhead Highway was heavily promoted in an effort to attract Edmonton-Vancouver traffic ("the shortest route from Edmonton to the coast!"), so I wonder if there's something similar happening there? As for Central Ontario, it is the original TCH alignment, albeit redundant.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: vdeane on October 13, 2021, 09:13:39 PM
If it's the original TCH alignment, why does the TCH follow the ON 69 corridor from Sudbury rather than ON 11 from North Bay, given that ON 11 from Nipigon to North Bay was also the original alignment?  That makes me think it wasn't so much "original" as "first to be finished" (such may seem the same but they aren't; "original" means that one was the way it was and then the other was added after the fact, "first to be finished" means both were always planned and one happened to be done before the other).
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: ghYHZ on October 15, 2021, 02:17:37 PM
In the book A Road for Canada...a map on page 75 show the Trans-Canada Highway extending from Halifax to Vancouver. From the text in the accompanying newspaper article I'm guessing the map is from 1947 or 48.  There's no route across Newfoundland as they were a separate country until entering Confederation in 1949. Victoria is also not shown.

A solid line from North Bay to Sault Ste Marie and onto Ft. William (Thunder Bay)is shown as the ”Official Trans-Canada Highway” but with a note: ”Unfinished Gap” along the north shore of Lake Superior.

Also shown are ”Alternate Routes” as dashed lines and this includes North Bay-Cochrane-Ft. William......with the note: ”Route Now Open”
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: vdeane on October 15, 2021, 10:00:30 PM
In the book A Road for Canada...a map on page 75 show the Trans-Canada Highway extending from Halifax to Vancouver. From the text in the accompanying newspaper article I'm guessing the map is from 1947 or 48.  There's no route across Newfoundland as they were a separate country until entering Confederation in 1949. Victoria is also not shown.

A solid line from North Bay to Sault Ste Marie and onto Ft. William (Thunder Bay)is shown as the ”Official Trans-Canada Highway” but with a note: ”Unfinished Gap” along the north shore of Lake Superior.

Also shown are ”Alternate Routes” as dashed lines and this includes North Bay-Cochrane-Ft. William......with the note: ”Route Now Open”
We seem to be talking about two different routes here.  You're mentioning the ON 11 route bypassing the ON 17 route around Lake Superior (which, yes, did predate ON 17).  I was talking about the ON 69/ON 12/ON 7 route mentioned earlier.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: ghYHZ on October 16, 2021, 05:45:11 AM
We seem to be talking about two different routes here........I was talking about the ON 69/ON 12/ON 7 route mentioned earlier.

Was I quoting you??

Just putting out there what I found on a map from the 1947-48?? era.

As I noted the 'Official' TCH route shown then went from Halifax to Vancouver. Between North Bay and Ft. William there was an 'Alternate' route via Cochrane.

There was no ON7/ON12/ON69 route then. The TCH followed ON17 between Ottawa and North Bay.

And some other routings noted.......

In New Brunswick the TCH went via Saint John then onto Fredericton.

In the west......the TCH went via the 'Big Bend' in BC but Alternate routes were shown via Princeton BC (noted as Now Open)....and Edmonton to Kamloops (noted as Not Built) 

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51595620245_4e646b3826_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mBk3kp)

Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: vdeane on October 16, 2021, 04:44:04 PM
Sorry, I figured your post was a reply since it came right after and addressed the same type of subject matter.  That said, interesting that ON 17 did indeed come first (to the TCH at least) over ON 69/12/7.  I guess the person in this thread insisting the latter is the "original" TCH route is just incorrect.  Also interesting how it changed out west... that original routing of TCH 16 (TCH 5?) down to Kamloops would seem to make more sense than sending it out across rural BC and then a ferry to Masset.  I wonder why presumed TCH 3 is no longer around.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: ghYHZ on October 16, 2021, 05:36:07 PM
Sorry, I figured your post was a reply since it came right after and addressed the same type of subject matter.  That said, interesting that ON 17 did indeed come first (to the TCH at least) over ON 69/12/7.  I guess the person in this thread insisting the latter is the "original" TCH route is just incorrect.  Also interesting how it changed out west... that original routing of TCH 16 (TCH 5?) down to Kamloops would seem to make more sense than sending it out across rural BC and then a ferry to Masset.  I wonder why presumed TCH 3 is no longer around.

The 'Official' route shown was probably the Federal Governments preferred route. As noted in the description......the Premiers of the nine provinces were to meet the following week. I'm sure each had their own preferred routing and that's when changes were probably put forward.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: dmuzika on October 16, 2021, 06:02:51 PM
Sorry, I figured your post was a reply since it came right after and addressed the same type of subject matter.  That said, interesting that ON 17 did indeed come first (to the TCH at least) over ON 69/12/7.  I guess the person in this thread insisting the latter is the "original" TCH route is just incorrect.  Also interesting how it changed out west... that original routing of TCH 16 (TCH 5?) down to Kamloops would seem to make more sense than sending it out across rural BC and then a ferry to Masset.  I wonder why presumed TCH 3 is no longer around.

The present-day Crowsnest Highway (AB/BC 3), previously known as the Interprovincial Highway in BC, was the first highway between the Lower Mainland and Alberta, but it's still a slower route with challenging terrain. Prior to the Hope-Princeton opening, one had to travel from Hope to Spences Bridge, then east through Merritt and south to Princeton along present-day Hwys 1, 8, and 5A. The other big difference was that Kootenay Pass (higher than Rogers Pass) wasn't open, so ferry crossings were needed at Kootenay Lake. I read that Nelson did unsuccessfully lobby for the TCH to pass through town.

Even today, with all the elevation changes and windy routing, it's shorter to take TCH 1 between Medicine Hat and Hope than Hwy 3. There's also the fact that the Alberta provincial government would not have agreed to a TCH route that bypasses both Calgary and Edmonton.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: mrsman on October 24, 2021, 12:58:32 PM
It seems like the authorities did not want to add too much mileage onto the route of the TCH.  Keep a more or less straight line route that will meet most of Canada's larger cities will basically hug the 49th parallel.  Due to the position of the Great Lakes, a lot more distance would be needed to go from Sudbury to Toronto and then onto Ottawa, as opposed to bypassing Toronto.

It seems like the TCH in its original configuration was meant as a corridor as opposed to a highway system.
Title: Re: Why doesn't the Trans Canadian Highway serve Toronto?
Post by: Transportfan on October 27, 2021, 10:10:57 PM
The highway should have Niagara Falls and Windsor branches.
it already does.....the QEW and the 401.

Don't count as they're not signed as national routes.