AARoads Forum

So I guess all of a sudden (or maybe it was planned), Windows 11's official release was today.

There's lots of visual changes, going back to a more rounded and colorful look. The taskbar is now by default centered. The Start menu is much more simplified. Teams is integrated more directly. Xbox (the app) has been updated. The Store has been updated, yet again. And there's a few other new features.

What's more striking as I've been doing some basic research is the shear amount of features being removed. Almost all taskbar customization is gone, including moving it to a different side of the screen, small taskbars, separating different instances of applications, etc. Synced wallpapers is gone. Previews of folders with videos or photos is gone. All Windows 10 Start menu customization is gone. And a few other features like Timeline and People that I think were seldom used by most. Even the taskbar's context menu is basically gone, the only thing you can link to is Settings.

There's a lot that hasn't changed either. All those old Windows 95 era menus are still there, without dark mode.

You'll notice that the list of things removed seems to be as long, if not longer, than the new features. The functionality and customization of the OS basically has been restricted even more so than iOS now. Not to mention the at this point traditional Microsoft inconsistency.

I think Windows 11 sounds like a pure downgrade, and to be honest, a disaster. The only cool thing is the new design language, which isn't worth it if so much has been removed. I have no intention to upgrade, I don't care if it's free. It feels completely unfinished.

What are your thoughts? Will you upgrade now, or later, or is Windows 11 yet another disaster OS?

I'll hold on upgrade until 22.04 is released

I've had 11 on one of my laptops via the Insider Program for a couple of months now.

It works well enough, and they've quashed most of the bugs.  All my apps (including a couple of ancient 32-bit ones) work fine.

I do think the lack of start menu and taskbar customization will be a show-stopper for many.  I don't care at all for the "only combine apps when taskbar is full" being removed, and the ability to show labels as well.  Also, the ability to drag-and-drop files to apps on the taskbar is gone.

The context menu requires two mouse clicks instead of one to display all the choices. Why?

There are work-arounds, such as StartAllBack which restore most of the taskbar and start menu functionality.

Now that it's been released, I'll likely opt out of the program for a while and restore 10 from my backups.  There's nothing in the new release that I will miss going back to 10.  I have no plans to update my daily driver desktop for a while.

For over 20 years now, every other Windows release has been considered to be subpar. Windows 11 has the same fatal flaw that Vista had: drastically increased hardware requirements compared to its predecessor. In ME's defense, it is the only release of Windows on the list below not to based off the NT kernel:

2000 ME XP Vista 7 8 10 11?

My HP ENVY x360 will have Windows 11 pre-installed. I did not have a choice between Windows 10 and 11 when I ordered it. HP started requiring Custom-to-Order computers to be pre-installed with Windows 11 on September 1, 2021. As for my desktop, I would need to enable TPM to upgrade, which I do not plan on doing until I get to try it on my laptop, if I even like the new OS.

I like the idea. But I'll wait a year before upgrading. It's not really that big of a deal for me. Plus I need to see which device I can get my hands on that supports it best. Sometimes I don't have much luck with this.

When the third service pack is released, I'll upgrade.

I've been running it on my main PC since it became available on the Insiders Beta channel, and I immediately put it on my new laptop when it arrived last week, because the dissonance of having different versions of Windows on my two daily use machines gave me a headache.

I think Microsoft may have broken the "every other version" curse.  However, I don't really consider Win 11 to be quite so dramatic a change from Win 10 as the other major version updates that Microsoft has been infamous for.

I've come to the realization, however, that I must be the only person who actually liked the Win 10 start menu.  I'm going to miss it.

As someone who has used options like "small icons" and "only combine when taskbar is full" to make the 7+ taskbars function 75% like the taskbar did from 95-Vista (I do allow pinning programs rather than going back to the "quick launch" toolbar), as well as pinning frequently used files/folders, this is a HUGE downgrade and I sincerely hope IT never forces us to use it at work.  Fortunately, I don't have to worry about this at home.  Crap like this is a major part of why I only use Linux on my home computers.

I'll upgrade when the anticipated Android apps feature gets added.

Quote from: SkyPesos on October 05, 2021, 09:40:17 PM
I'll upgrade when the anticipated Android apps feature gets added.

That would be one reason I could see myself upgrading. It would be nice to use something like Snapchat on my computer. Not so I can discretely save photos, but simply so I can type messages on a real keyboard.

Quote from: ozarkman417 on October 05, 2021, 06:11:03 PM
For over 20 years now, every other Windows release has been considered to be subpar. Windows 11 has the same fatal flaw that Vista had: drastically increased hardware requirements compared to its predecessor. In ME's defense, it is the only release of Windows on the list below not to based off the NT kernel:

2000 ME XP Vista 7 8 10 11?

You can continue your Windows History back a couple more Generations

3.0 3.1(1) 95 98

I'm not sure where to put NT 3.51 nor NT 4, and I never used 3.51 and only 4 just a tiny bit

Not going to even touch 11.  Would have to build/buy a completely new computer.  Just ain't in the cards at this time to even consider it.

Quote from: ozarkman417 on October 05, 2021, 06:11:03 PM
For over 20 years now, every other Windows release has been considered to be subpar. Windows 11 has the same fatal flaw that Vista had: drastically increased hardware requirements compared to its predecessor. In ME's defense, it is the only release of Windows on the list below not to based off the NT kernel:

2000 ME XP Vista 7 8 10 11?

I've seen this discussed on AARoads several times, but it seems to me that Windows 8.1 (meaning not quite Windows 9) was the improved version and Windows 10 has been subpar. 

Y'all guys actually let your developers remove features?

...

What do you mean, you don't have a say in what your developers do?

Quote from: ilpt4u on October 05, 2021, 11:13:32 PM

Quote from: ozarkman417 on October 05, 2021, 06:11:03 PM
For over 20 years now, every other Windows release has been considered to be subpar. Windows 11 has the same fatal flaw that Vista had: drastically increased hardware requirements compared to its predecessor. In ME's defense, it is the only release of Windows on the list below not to based off the NT kernel:

2000 ME XP Vista 7 8 10 11?

You can continue your Windows History back a couple more Generations

3.0 3.1(1) 95 98

I'm not sure where to put NT 3.51 nor NT 4, and I never used 3.51 and only 4 just a tiny bit

I only used NT 3.51 a couple of times, but NT 4 had a good long life until Windows 2000 was released.  3.51 was usable, but 4 was better. 2000 was better yet, but XP Pro was probably Microsoft's all time best OS.  Win 7 was good, 8 sucked.  I had retired before 10 was released, so I have no professional experience with it. 

After I retired, I removed all things Microsoft from my machines at home.  We're a 100% Linux Mint 20 house now, although the new Slackware 15 will get a test run once it's released.

↑ I've never used Mint, just Fedora and Ubuntu (and a brief period of SuSE way back at the start of my Linux journey). What do you like about it?

I'm keeping my laptop as it is because I'm not plopping another $400 or whatever to put an annoying OS on my current PC only for it to *POOP* itself to nothingness. If Microsoft forces me to upgrade to W11, hell no. I'm staying put with 10 because that's as far as I'm gonna go as far as OSes are to me. It's not perfect. It has its flaws. But I'm more confident in using W10 version 21H2 than this newer fancy dancy schmuck Microsoft just put out.

Quote from: Billy F 1988 on October 06, 2021, 05:31:33 PM
I'm keeping my laptop as it is because I'm not plopping another $400 or whatever to put an annoying OS on my current PC only for it to *POOP* itself to nothingness. If Microsoft forces me to upgrade to W11, hell no. I'm staying put with 10 because that's as far as I'm gonna go as far as OSes are to me. It's not perfect. It has its flaws. But I'm more confident in using W10 version 21H2 than this newer fancy dancy schmuck Microsoft just put out.

So you were the guy who clutched and dared them to get rid of your computer with XP or Vista?

I am not scared of Windows 11. I ran the early previews of Windows 10 with stunning success.

My issue is I have a year old machine with a 9th Generation Intel I9 processor and my computer is not eligible for Windows 11.

I will say. I had one of the earlier AMD quad cores and it was a three day downtime almost every time windows 10 was upgraded after the first couple of times. The problem appears there was an assumption that the faster AMD's from that time frame were all gone.  It was faster than the Intel in my five year old desktop here at work.  The point being just because W11 supports your machine now does not mean that it will support it down the line.

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 06, 2021, 03:45:13 AM
↑ I've never used Mint, just Fedora and Ubuntu (and a brief period of SuSE way back at the start of my Linux journey). What do you like about it?

I'm not sure what KeithE4Phx thinks of it, but I also run Mint so I'll comment here.  I actually started using it because it's a stable system that has MATE/Cinnamon editions, and I figure why not just run a version that uses the preferred DE (I've run both over the years) rather than a system where I'd have to install it and then have multiple on the system, one of which wouldn't be used (yes, my OCD organizational tendencies does extend to computer file systems, why do you ask?).  I also like that it's easy to get all the multimedia codecs working, which might be less applicable now than it was when MP3s were patent protected and Flash was still around (plus it's now a checkbox in installation rather than included by default for legal reasons and I believe other distros have adopted such, so Mint is no longer unique in that respect).  Overall it seems like they put together a nice distro for those who like the desktop for the desktop and don't need things made to function more like a phone or tablet and IMO it's a good compromise between "let's remove all the features for simplicity" and "you can do anything you want as long as you're an expert at the command line and editing config files".

Quote from: vdeane on October 06, 2021, 08:59:07 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 06, 2021, 03:45:13 AM
↑ I've never used Mint, just Fedora and Ubuntu (and a brief period of SuSE way back at the start of my Linux journey). What do you like about it?

I'm not sure what KeithE4Phx thinks of it, but I also run Mint so I'll comment here.  I actually started using it because it's a stable system that has MATE/Cinnamon editions, and I figure why not just run a version that uses the preferred DE (I've run both over the years) rather than a system where I'd have to install it and then have multiple on the system, one of which wouldn't be used (yes, my OCD organizational tendencies does extend to computer file systems, why do you ask?).

I've been running Mint since 2014.  It's no more perfect than any OS (and, for the record, no OS is perfect), but if you're coming from Windows, the Mate and Cinnamon GUIs are close to it.  I prefer to use XFCE because it is a bit faster and my machines are not speed demons by 2021 standards.  But then, I'm a ham operator, not a gamer, so speed isn't as critical. 

QuoteI also like that it's easy to get all the multimedia codecs working, which might be less applicable now than it was when MP3s were patent protected and Flash was still around (plus it's now a checkbox in installation rather than included by default for legal reasons and I believe other distros have adopted such, so Mint is no longer unique in that respect).

IIRC, the MP3 patents expired a few years back, and Adobe Flash has finally assumed room temperature.  I believe there are a couple of codecs that are still patent-encumbered, but as long as you're not going to use them commercially, it should be OK to install (depends on the country, though).

QuoteOverall it seems like they put together a nice distro for those who like the desktop for the desktop and don't need things made to function more like a phone or tablet and IMO it's a good compromise between "let's remove all the features for simplicity" and "you can do anything you want as long as you're an expert at the command line and editing config files".

Mint is the "easy" OS -- easier than Ubuntu, I feel.  Its biggest problem is that it's a good idea to wait at least a month after release before installing the latest version.  But I feel the same about all Linux-based OSes (I despise the term "distro," even though I still use it at times).  Bugs happen, especially with a "dot zero" version that is brand new. 

The current Mint release is version 20.2, released last July.  20.3 should be released right around the end of the year.

I am using Windows 11. I completed the upgrade today.

Overall? Not much to say yet, but there are two features that I appreciate quite a lot using an odd 32:9 monitor:

* 1: the centered taskbar is much easier for me to manage/access. I access most functions using shortcut keys, so the whole issue of the hitbox constantly moving is not an issue.
* 2: the ability to size/shape windows using the middle-button dropdown is an awesome feature, and makes using a wide monitor much easier.

My computer doesn't support it, and the computer I have is Dell Inspiron which is a May 2013 build and it's 8 years old. So I think it's time for me to get a new computer and then I'll try it out!

~Tolbs

Quote from: tolbs17 on October 06, 2021, 10:19:45 PM
My computer doesn't support it, and the computer I have is Dell Inspiron which is a May 2013 build and it's 8 years old. So I think it's time for me to get a new computer and then I'll try it out!

~Tolbs

My 2015 Lenovo Think Center at work DOES support it.  My 2020 Gaming desktop however will not....

Quote from: bwana39 on October 06, 2021, 10:30:26 PM

Quote from: tolbs17 on October 06, 2021, 10:19:45 PM
My computer doesn't support it, and the computer I have is Dell Inspiron which is a May 2013 build and it's 8 years old. So I think it's time for me to get a new computer and then I'll try it out!

~Tolbs

My 2015 Lenovo Think Center at work DOES support it.  My 2020 Gaming desktop however will not....

I don't like gaming hardware. I find them unreliable and they probably CAN easily run into issues like that.

Quote from: tolbs17 on October 06, 2021, 10:33:56 PM

Quote from: bwana39 on October 06, 2021, 10:30:26 PM

Quote from: tolbs17 on October 06, 2021, 10:19:45 PM
My computer doesn't support it, and the computer I have is Dell Inspiron which is a May 2013 build and it's 8 years old. So I think it's time for me to get a new computer and then I'll try it out!

~Tolbs

My 2015 Lenovo Think Center at work DOES support it.  My 2020 Gaming desktop however will not....

I don't like gaming hardware. I find them unreliable and they probably CAN easily run into issues like that.

"Gaming" is pretty much a marketing term for hardware. You can have a piece of hardware be as much or as little "gaming" as you like.

Quote from: jakeroot on October 06, 2021, 10:03:52 PM
I am using Windows 11. I completed the upgrade today.

Overall? Not much to say yet, but there are two features that I appreciate quite a lot using an odd 32:9 monitor:

* 1: the centered taskbar is much easier for me to manage/access. I access most functions using shortcut keys, so the whole issue of the hitbox constantly moving is not an issue.
* 2: the ability to size/shape windows using the middle-button dropdown is an awesome feature, and makes using a wide monitor much easier.

Those are definitely two positives in Windows 11's favor. My family finds ultrawide monitors all the rage currently, so they've purchased several for use at work and at home. I think a centered taskbar would work especially well on those. And the new snap menu is also really nice, for the same reason.

Also, I made one quick change to the poll. The first option is now also for those who have already made the switch like jakeroot.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on October 06, 2021, 11:03:17 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on October 06, 2021, 10:03:52 PM
I am using Windows 11. I completed the upgrade today.

Overall? Not much to say yet, but there are two features that I appreciate quite a lot using an odd 32:9 monitor:

* 1: the centered taskbar is much easier for me to manage/access. I access most functions using shortcut keys, so the whole issue of the hitbox constantly moving is not an issue.
* 2: the ability to size/shape windows using the middle-button dropdown is an awesome feature, and makes using a wide monitor much easier.

Those are definitely two positives in Windows 11's favor. My family finds ultrawide monitors all the rage currently, so they've purchased several for use at work and at home. I think a centered taskbar would work especially well on those. And the new snap menu is also really nice, for the same reason.

Also, I made one quick change to the poll. The first option is now also for those who have already made the switch like jakeroot.

And with you and jakeroot saying that, I'm eager for Windows 11. I'm excited to get it!!! I probably can try to get it on this computer, but I don't want to fuck it up cause Windows Security check clearly says that my computer is not compatible with Windows 11. So that leaves me no choice but to get a new computer. I may think about it for Christmas.

Windows 11 had the startup sound brought back I heard, and I really want to see what it's like...

(https://i.imgur.com/r8XeZ2h.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/yzG7rLi.png)

Enabling TPM 2.0 only took a few clicks in my BIOS settings and only a couple of minutes, so now I am all set to upgrade my Gaming Desktop to Windows 11, but won't do so until I get to try Windows 11 on my new laptop, set to ship in less than two weeks.

Quote from: ozarkman417 on October 07, 2021, 12:03:36 AM
Enabling TPM 2.0 only took a few clicks in my BIOS settings and only a couple of minutes, so now I am all set to upgrade my Gaming Desktop to Windows 11, but won't do so until I get to try Windows 11 on my new laptop, set to ship in less than two weeks.

I looked deep into doing that and I saw no such option, so I just gave up on trying to do that.

TPM 2.0 is often not available in desktop motherboards are is disabled, but it's possible to buy a TPM chip board which has a 7x2 header insert and insert it to TPM headers in a motherboard. I guess if one is tech-savvy enough that's a cheap solution to satisfy the TPM requirement.

Laptop motherboards on the hand do in fact have TPM 2.0, at least over the last few years. My 2.5 year old laptop meets all the requirements for Windows 11 apparently!

(https://i.imgur.com/9in1UqF.png)

However I won't upgrade to Windows 11 just yet. For whatever reason Windows 10 had all sorts of bugs in the first couple of years after release and I deal with a couple bugs from time to time (one is which is thumbnails on Windows Explorer stop working and starts magically working again 15 minutes later so I use a program called XnViewMP to do what Windows Explorer should be able to do.) and I expect the same to be true for Windows 11. Even then not all of its gaming features are available, the DirectStorage tech sounds interesting but we need to wait for games to be released that support it!

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on October 06, 2021, 09:28:36 PM

Quote from: vdeane on October 06, 2021, 08:59:07 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 06, 2021, 03:45:13 AM
↑ I've never used Mint, just Fedora and Ubuntu (and a brief period of SuSE way back at the start of my Linux journey). What do you like about it?

I'm not sure what KeithE4Phx thinks of it, but I also run Mint so I'll comment here.  I actually started using it because it's a stable system that has MATE/Cinnamon editions, and I figure why not just run a version that uses the preferred DE (I've run both over the years) rather than a system where I'd have to install it and then have multiple on the system, one of which wouldn't be used (yes, my OCD organizational tendencies does extend to computer file systems, why do you ask?).

I've been running Mint since 2014.  It's no more perfect than any OS (and, for the record, no OS is perfect), but if you're coming from Windows, the Mate and Cinnamon GUIs are close to it.  I prefer to use XFCE because it is a bit faster and my machines are not speed demons by 2021 standards.  But then, I'm a ham operator, not a gamer, so speed isn't as critical. 

Fair enough, I suppose. I first got into the Linux game when Windows XP, KDE 3, and GNOME 2 were current. At the time I found KDE was a lot closer to the Windows GUI than GNOME was, and it has stayed really more or less the same in terms of general UI design since then. I haven't ever used MATE or Cinnamon, but from a glance at some screenshots, looks like they're stay-the-course forks created when GNOME 3 went off the deep end, so I suppose if that's what Mint offers it's not really for me.

I suppose it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for me to stick with Fedora and Ubuntu given their treatment of KDE as a second-fiddle DE, but they're what I'm used to, and I have the technical ability to install KDE alongside whatever they ship with, so it's not an issue that bothers me.

I'm not sure if I'll ever install it. I currently use Linux 99% of the time on my PC. I do have Windows 10 installed as well but I almost never use it. I see no reason to bother upgrading that to Windows 11. Especially with the secure boot and TPM requirements. I believe my hardware supports it, but I don't want to bother messing with the settings.

Quote from: doorknob60 on October 07, 2021, 02:48:17 PM
I'm not sure if I'll ever install it. I currently use Linux 99% of the time on my PC. I do have Windows 10 installed as well but I almost never use it. I see no reason to bother upgrading that to Windows 11. Especially with the secure boot and TPM requirements. I believe my hardware supports it, but I don't want to bother messing with the settings.

And, if anything, I see a big problem looming for MS. More and more people say "I just use Linux". With alienating at least a portion of users, they really risk ending up loosing the market.
Of course, they have lion share and are too big to fail. But at some point a last straw may hit them back.

My laptop is eligible for the update. I'll install as soon as it's offered.

I updated my desktop, but will hold off on my laptop due to Ryzen processor issues and some incompatible software.

Quote from: kalvado on October 07, 2021, 03:11:43 PM

Quote from: doorknob60 on October 07, 2021, 02:48:17 PM
I'm not sure if I'll ever install it. I currently use Linux 99% of the time on my PC. I do have Windows 10 installed as well but I almost never use it. I see no reason to bother upgrading that to Windows 11. Especially with the secure boot and TPM requirements. I believe my hardware supports it, but I don't want to bother messing with the settings.

And, if anything, I see a big problem looming for MS. More and more people say "I just use Linux". With alienating at least a portion of users, they really risk ending up loosing the market.
Of course, they have lion share and are too big to fail. But at some point a last straw may hit them back.

They are definitely still "too big to fail". The average PC user (and then some) has no idea that Linux even exists, let alone is able to understand how to install and use it. Even I don't know much about it, and I'm a decently avid tech user. I think I could figure it out if I tried though.

Maybe I'll switch to macOS.  :)

That ChromeOS has overtaken Linux is quite telling. Most people don't use Linux because they don't need to.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on October 07, 2021, 03:42:45 PM

Quote from: kalvado on October 07, 2021, 03:11:43 PM

Quote from: doorknob60 on October 07, 2021, 02:48:17 PM
I'm not sure if I'll ever install it. I currently use Linux 99% of the time on my PC. I do have Windows 10 installed as well but I almost never use it. I see no reason to bother upgrading that to Windows 11. Especially with the secure boot and TPM requirements. I believe my hardware supports it, but I don't want to bother messing with the settings.

And, if anything, I see a big problem looming for MS. More and more people say "I just use Linux". With alienating at least a portion of users, they really risk ending up loosing the market.
Of course, they have lion share and are too big to fail. But at some point a last straw may hit them back.

They are definitely still "too big to fail". The average PC user (and then some) has no idea that Linux even exists, let alone is able to understand how to install and use it. Even I don't know much about it, and I'm a decently avid tech user. I think I could figure it out if I tried though.

Maybe I'll switch to macOS.  :)

I, for one, tried Linux about 10 years ago (and once or twice before that) with limited success (special thanks to Gnome 3, though, for last failure) and forgot about it for a while.  I did put together a desktop during lockdown - I had a few components sitting around, and large monitor I gave myself as a birthday present couldn't work with my laptop.  So, I bought a few more parts for  a brand new desktop and.. there is some time to waste, why not try Linux again?
Now that desktop runs Linux - and there are very few things I have problems with. Web-based office365 is not ideal, but it works. Zoom and Webex  have minor issues (and not that they work 100% smoothly on windows laptop). Some very old, but very specific CAD runs under wine pretty well.
And, interestingly enough, I do hear "I use Linux" all the time, such as 3 people in this thread saying that.

So, you can give it a try as well. No commitment required - just a USB drive. https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/try-ubuntu-before-you-install#1-getting-started

Quote from: kalvado on October 07, 2021, 03:11:43 PM

Quote from: doorknob60 on October 07, 2021, 02:48:17 PM
I'm not sure if I'll ever install it. I currently use Linux 99% of the time on my PC. I do have Windows 10 installed as well but I almost never use it. I see no reason to bother upgrading that to Windows 11. Especially with the secure boot and TPM requirements. I believe my hardware supports it, but I don't want to bother messing with the settings.

And, if anything, I see a big problem looming for MS. More and more people say "I just use Linux". With alienating at least a portion of users, they really risk ending up loosing the market.
Of course, they have lion share and are too big to fail. But at some point a last straw may hit them back.

I feel like Linux's recent rise tends to be the confluence of a few things:

1) Linux has matured enough as a desktop that it is not materially harder to use than Windows. There are still some places where Linux is rough around the edges, but they're of comparable difficulty to the places where Windows is rough around the edges.
2) The causal users who are historically Windows users have stopped using desktops at all and now do everything on their smartphones.
3) Big Tech is overplaying its hand. It used to be that spyware was a big security threat, and you'd run antispyware software to remove programs that were snooping on what you were doing. Now that's built into the OS, your browser, and popular websites, and there's little way to avoid it short of using open-source software like Linux and Firefox.

Linux does still have a way to go; it's only at 3% market share at most. But that's still way up from where it used to be.

Quote from: jakeroot on October 07, 2021, 04:18:37 PM
That ChromeOS has overtaken Linux is quite telling. Most people don't use Linux because they don't need to.

ChromeOS is Linux. A pretty sucky graphical shell stacked on top of Linux, but it's Linux.

Android is also Linux.

Quote from: jakeroot on October 07, 2021, 04:18:37 PM
That ChromeOS has overtaken Linux is quite telling. Most people don't use Linux because they don't need to.

ChromeOS and Android are both Linux-based OSes.  They're just smart to avoid using the Linux name -- which refers to just the kernel, anyway.  All Microsoft OSes from 2000 on use the Windows NT kernel, regardless of what else is included.  No different than the various Linux-based operating systems like Debian, Red Hat, or Mint. 

Thanks to Microsoft FUD of 20+ years ago, the Linux name got a "nerd" stigma that it has yet to shake.  But let's remember that a Linux-based operating system now controls 50% of the mobile device market, with another Unix-based OS controlling the other 50%.  Microsoft has zero market share in the mobile world.  I'm surprised they still have a large majority of desktop users, given what a hot steaming pile of ca-ca Windows is.  Inertia and corporate BS, I guess.

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 07, 2021, 07:02:07 PM
Linux does still have a way to go; it's only at 3% market share at most. But that's still way up from where it used to be.

Maybe 3% of the business/corporate desktop market, mostly in engineering, programming, and IT departments (and my guess is that it's actually much higher in those three areas, but not, say, in sales and marketing).  But by definition, it has 50% of the mobile market, given that the market consists of Apple and Android, and no one else.

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 07, 2021, 07:02:07 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on October 07, 2021, 04:18:37 PM
That ChromeOS has overtaken Linux is quite telling. Most people don't use Linux because they don't need to.

ChromeOS is Linux. A pretty sucky graphical shell stacked on top of Linux, but it's Linux.

For the purpose of my comment, ChromeOS is counted as a separate desktop OS from Linux, even if, underneath, it's still Linux.

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on October 07, 2021, 09:56:33 PM
Thanks to Microsoft FUD of 20+ years ago, the Linux name got a "nerd" stigma that it has yet to shake.  But let's remember that a Linux-based operating system now controls 50% of the mobile device market, with another Unix-based OS controlling the other 50%.  Microsoft has zero market share in the mobile world.  I'm surprised they still have a large majority of desktop users, given what a hot steaming pile of ca-ca Windows is.  Inertia and corporate BS, I guess.

But isn't the underlying kernel being the base of so many consumer products good enough? Linux is brilliant when it comes to providing something for someone else to fork into something that their users find useful: Android, for instance, or Xbox, or even a refrigerator or washer/dryer. There are very few people that really need Linux (in whatever distro form) as a desktop operating system.

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on October 07, 2021, 09:56:33 PM
Thanks to Microsoft FUD of 20+ years ago, the Linux name got a "nerd" stigma that it has yet to shake.  But let's remember that a Linux-based operating system now controls 50% of the mobile device market, with another Unix-based OS controlling the other 50%.  Microsoft has zero market share in the mobile world.  I'm surprised they still have a large majority of desktop users, given what a hot steaming pile of ca-ca Windows is.  Inertia and corporate BS, I guess.

Oh, it's entirely due to corporate BS. Paying for hundreds of Windows licenses because the company standardized on some piece of commercial software that only runs on Windows. Even if there's an open-source program that does the same thing, can't change anything on the users because Debra in the dress code enforcement division lost her shit that one time an upgrade added a new icon to the toolbar and the button she needed was no longer the ninth one from the left. (We could require critical thinking of Debra, but that'd make sense, better to yell at IT for "disrupting her workflow".)

Quote from: jakeroot on October 07, 2021, 10:57:12 PM
But isn't the underlying kernel being the base of so many consumer products good enough? Linux is brilliant when it comes to providing something for someone else to fork into something that their users find useful: Android, for instance, or Xbox, or even a refrigerator or washer/dryer. There are very few people that really need Linux (in whatever distro form) as a desktop operating system.

Er...not really. What makes Linux great is that the software is all developed and maintained on a volunteer basis. People write Linux and Linux software because they want to write it. If they're not enjoying themselves, they bow out of development. That means that the developers are proud of their work and aren't cutting corners because they only get paid so much and they just need a quick fix to get their boss off their ass. Software ships when it's ready, not because Marketing promised a big customer we'd have a release by the end of the month, and besides, what are the odds that someone will use that feature with their language set to Norwegian but in the US/Central time zone during Daylight Savings, using a dark mode theme? It's not worth paying someone to spend the time to fix it.

Oh, by the way, Bill (you know, the guy with the masters in business administration? who demanded to know why a software company needed snake cages when he heard someone talking about a Python module? the one who also oversees all the developers?) doesn't like that the options menu has 11 items in it now. He wants it down to five by...Tuesday. Yes, I know it's Thursday. Well, why don't you just delete some of the features then, it's not like anyone uses them...Oh, and it needs to send back usage metrics to Marketing so that we know what all of our users are doing with the software so we can sell their data to advertisers develop more features that we're not allowed to put in the options menu. Tell you what, we'll just have them trigger randomly when the computer thinks someone might possibly be thinking about maybe wanting that feature.

Quote from: jakeroot on October 07, 2021, 10:57:12 PM

But isn't the underlying kernel being the base of so many consumer products good enough? Linux is brilliant when it comes to providing something for someone else to fork into something that their users find useful: Android, for instance, or Xbox, or even a refrigerator or washer/dryer. There are very few people that really need Linux (in whatever distro form) as a desktop operating system.

Well, windows is brilliant when it comes to managing an organization with thousands users with tools such as active directory. There are very few people that really need windows (in home or pro form) as a desktop operating system.
Trolling aside, that is exactly why minimalist Chromebook environment is trying to emerge. Current windows is overburdened trying to be everything for everyone where many people need minimal set of functions. End result is a jack of all trades.

I'm holding off on upgrading to Windows 11 until I can build a new box. My current machine was assembled in September, 2014 and is due for a replacement, but I'm waiting until DDR5 memory becomes available and we aren't facing a parts shortage, including high performance video cards.

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 07, 2021, 11:49:44 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on October 07, 2021, 10:57:12 PM
But isn't the underlying kernel being the base of so many consumer products good enough? Linux is brilliant when it comes to providing something for someone else to fork into something that their users find useful: Android, for instance, or Xbox, or even a refrigerator or washer/dryer. There are very few people that really need Linux (in whatever distro form) as a desktop operating system.

Er...not really. What makes Linux great is that the software is all developed and maintained on a volunteer basis. People write Linux and Linux software because they want to write it. If they're not enjoying themselves, they bow out of development. That means that the developers are proud of their work and aren't cutting corners because they only get paid so much and they just need a quick fix to get their boss off their ass. Software ships when it's ready, not because Marketing promised a big customer we'd have a release by the end of the month, and besides, what are the odds that someone will use that feature with their language set to Norwegian but in the US/Central time zone during Daylight Savings, using a dark mode theme? It's not worth paying someone to spend the time to fix it.

I feel like you've underscored my point rather than rebut it. Open-source development is brilliant for developers, engineers, programmers, and whatnot specifically because of the flexibility in its framework and deployment. It has a great deal of variability in where it can be applied. At least from my point of view, this is why it's such a good base layer for so many other larger projects. But I don't think the standard Linux distro was ever designed for, you know, 80% of end-users who mostly just use their computer for writing stuff, browsing the web, and maybe some photo editing from time to time. For that stuff, Mac and Windows are just better integrated into the rest of our lives, and do most things that most users need to do pretty well. For everyone else, there's Linux.

Quote from: Techknow on October 07, 2021, 01:03:24 AM
TPM 2.0 is often not available in desktop motherboards are is disabled, but it's possible to buy a TPM chip board which has a 7x2 header insert and insert it to TPM headers in a motherboard. I guess if one is tech-savvy enough that's a cheap solution to satisfy the TPM requirement.

Laptop motherboards on the hand do in fact have TPM 2.0, at least over the last few years. My 2.5 year old laptop meets all the requirements for Windows 11 apparently!

(https://i.imgur.com/9in1UqF.png)

However I won't upgrade to Windows 11 just yet. For whatever reason Windows 10 had all sorts of bugs in the first couple of years after release and I deal with a couple bugs from time to time (one is which is thumbnails on Windows Explorer stop working and starts magically working again 15 minutes later so I use a program called XnViewMP to do what Windows Explorer should be able to do.) and I expect the same to be true for Windows 11. Even then not all of its gaming features are available, the DirectStorage tech sounds interesting but we need to wait for games to be released that support it!

I went ahead & upgraded my gaming PC to Windows 11. The only issue is that my PC does not have a TPM installed. I had to use a workaround to be able to install Windows 11. Microsoft says that unsupported PC's won't be able to get updates, however I did notice that I was able to receive updates. I would have gotten a TPM for my PC, however, due to the release of Windows 11, the prices of TPM's have risen from about $6-$15 to $30-$99 in the last 3 months.

SM-S102DL

Quote from: jakeroot on October 08, 2021, 01:52:06 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 07, 2021, 11:49:44 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on October 07, 2021, 10:57:12 PM
But isn't the underlying kernel being the base of so many consumer products good enough? Linux is brilliant when it comes to providing something for someone else to fork into something that their users find useful: Android, for instance, or Xbox, or even a refrigerator or washer/dryer. There are very few people that really need Linux (in whatever distro form) as a desktop operating system.

Er...not really. What makes Linux great is that the software is all developed and maintained on a volunteer basis. People write Linux and Linux software because they want to write it. If they're not enjoying themselves, they bow out of development. That means that the developers are proud of their work and aren't cutting corners because they only get paid so much and they just need a quick fix to get their boss off their ass. Software ships when it's ready, not because Marketing promised a big customer we'd have a release by the end of the month, and besides, what are the odds that someone will use that feature with their language set to Norwegian but in the US/Central time zone during Daylight Savings, using a dark mode theme? It's not worth paying someone to spend the time to fix it.

I feel like you've underscored my point rather than rebut it. Open-source development is brilliant for developers, engineers, programmers, and whatnot specifically because of the flexibility in its framework and deployment. It has a great deal of variability in where it can be applied. At least from my point of view, this is why it's such a good base layer for so many other larger projects. But I don't think the standard Linux distro was ever designed for, you know, 80% of end-users who mostly just use their computer for writing stuff, browsing the web, and maybe some photo editing from time to time. For that stuff, Mac and Windows are just better integrated into the rest of our lives, and do most things that most users need to do pretty well. For everyone else, there's Linux.

From personal experience - Linux handles those everyday tasks pretty much as good as Windows. I was pleasantly surprised with that when I installed Ubuntu. I would dare saying certain everyday tasks work even better than under WIndows.
Open source is a interesting concept, not necessarily improving my perception of things.

Quote from: jakeroot on October 08, 2021, 01:52:06 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 07, 2021, 11:49:44 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on October 07, 2021, 10:57:12 PM
But isn't the underlying kernel being the base of so many consumer products good enough? Linux is brilliant when it comes to providing something for someone else to fork into something that their users find useful: Android, for instance, or Xbox, or even a refrigerator or washer/dryer. There are very few people that really need Linux (in whatever distro form) as a desktop operating system.

Er...not really. What makes Linux great is that the software is all developed and maintained on a volunteer basis. People write Linux and Linux software because they want to write it. If they're not enjoying themselves, they bow out of development. That means that the developers are proud of their work and aren't cutting corners because they only get paid so much and they just need a quick fix to get their boss off their ass. Software ships when it's ready, not because Marketing promised a big customer we'd have a release by the end of the month, and besides, what are the odds that someone will use that feature with their language set to Norwegian but in the US/Central time zone during Daylight Savings, using a dark mode theme? It's not worth paying someone to spend the time to fix it.

I feel like you've underscored my point rather than rebut it. Open-source development is brilliant for developers, engineers, programmers, and whatnot specifically because of the flexibility in its framework and deployment. It has a great deal of variability in where it can be applied. At least from my point of view, this is why it's such a good base layer for so many other larger projects. But I don't think the standard Linux distro was ever designed for, you know, 80% of end-users who mostly just use their computer for writing stuff, browsing the web, and maybe some photo editing from time to time. For that stuff, Mac and Windows are just better integrated into the rest of our lives, and do most things that most users need to do pretty well. For everyone else, there's Linux.

Actually, open-source tools are better for writing stuff, browsing the web, and photo editing too.

Can't count the number of times I've had someone ask me for computer help because they're struggling with some "feature" of the commercial software getting in their way, or some feature they used regularly in past versions being removed. I suggest trying the open-source equivalent, and they're like "Huh, that's a lot easier, why haven't I been using this all along?"

Besides, Gimp doesn't charge you an annual fee like Adobe CS does now. Who has the money for that other than big corporate design shops?

I encourage you to download a live image (CD or USB) of Fedora or Ubuntu and try it out for an evening (if you're used to Windows I suggest the KDE version of either of those), because the image you have of Linux in your head was last current around 2006 or so.

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 08, 2021, 05:01:23 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on October 08, 2021, 01:52:06 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 07, 2021, 11:49:44 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on October 07, 2021, 10:57:12 PM
But isn't the underlying kernel being the base of so many consumer products good enough? Linux is brilliant when it comes to providing something for someone else to fork into something that their users find useful: Android, for instance, or Xbox, or even a refrigerator or washer/dryer. There are very few people that really need Linux (in whatever distro form) as a desktop operating system.

Er...not really. What makes Linux great is that the software is all developed and maintained on a volunteer basis. People write Linux and Linux software because they want to write it. If they're not enjoying themselves, they bow out of development. That means that the developers are proud of their work and aren't cutting corners because they only get paid so much and they just need a quick fix to get their boss off their ass. Software ships when it's ready, not because Marketing promised a big customer we'd have a release by the end of the month, and besides, what are the odds that someone will use that feature with their language set to Norwegian but in the US/Central time zone during Daylight Savings, using a dark mode theme? It's not worth paying someone to spend the time to fix it.

I feel like you've underscored my point rather than rebut it. Open-source development is brilliant for developers, engineers, programmers, and whatnot specifically because of the flexibility in its framework and deployment. It has a great deal of variability in where it can be applied. At least from my point of view, this is why it's such a good base layer for so many other larger projects. But I don't think the standard Linux distro was ever designed for, you know, 80% of end-users who mostly just use their computer for writing stuff, browsing the web, and maybe some photo editing from time to time. For that stuff, Mac and Windows are just better integrated into the rest of our lives, and do most things that most users need to do pretty well. For everyone else, there's Linux.

Actually, open-source tools are better for writing stuff, browsing the web, and photo editing too.

Can't count the number of times I've had someone ask me for computer help because they're struggling with some "feature" of the commercial software getting in their way, or some feature they used regularly in past versions being removed. I suggest trying the open-source equivalent, and they're like "Huh, that's a lot easier, why haven't I been using this all along?"

Besides, Gimp doesn't charge you an annual fee like Adobe CS does now. Who has the money for that other than big corporate design shops?

I encourage you to download a live image (CD or USB) of Fedora or Ubuntu and try it out for an evening (if you're used to Windows I suggest the KDE version of either of those), because the image you have of Linux in your head was last current around 2006 or so.

Not that simple...
Gimp is a good tool - but I heard general comment "yeah, its somewhat usable - but not a match to photoshop"
Libreoffice is OK for simple files; compatibility with something more loaded is not 100%. If you need nothing more than plain text, google web-based tools are just good enough.
I can get along with anything, but....  Word is simply better.
I still struggle to find something similar to XnView.

It's not to say that windows version of MS office is perfect. But there is no match for Excel.

Compatibility issues are on Microsoft's end, not LibreOffice's–LibreOffice and Microsoft Office both save to open standard formats. For each of them, there is a standard document that says precisely how files of that type are supposed to be parsed and displayed. Microsoft Office is simply so sloppily coded that it doesn't get a result that matches the standard, probably because it's too fixated on maintaining backwards compatibility with Microsoft Word 1868 or something, which is the usual cause of sloppy work from Microsoft.

I've done extensive work in both Excel and LibreOffice, and I can think of exactly one feature that Excel has and LibreOffice doesn't.

Quote from: kalvado on October 08, 2021, 05:34:41 PM
Not that simple...
Gimp is a good tool - but I heard general comment "yeah, its somewhat usable - but not a match to photoshop"
Libreoffice is OK for simple files; compatibility with something more loaded is not 100%. If you need nothing more than plain text, google web-based tools are just good enough.
I can get along with anything, but....  Word is simply better.
I still struggle to find something similar to XnView.

It's not to say that windows version of MS office is perfect. But there is no match for Excel.

LibreOffice Writer is as good at most things as M$ Word these days.  I used both at work when writing test procedures that required automatic step numbering based on paragraph indentation.  Compatibility was 98%, except for the quirks in the numbering that both programs suffer.  Writer and Word both suck at it, but suck differently, mainly regarding initial setup for what you want.

I'm not a spreadsheet power user, but for what I need it for, LO Calc and M$ Excel are identical in every way, including file compatibility.

I've never used XnView, but the new MP version runs under Windows, Mac, and Linux, as opposed to the Classic version, which was Windows-only.  Still not free, though, and since I don't have a professional need for it, I won't bother.

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 07, 2021, 11:49:44 PM
Oh, it's entirely due to corporate BS. Paying for hundreds of Windows licenses because the company standardized on some piece of commercial software that only runs on Windows. Even if there's an open-source program that does the same thing, can't change anything on the users because Debra in the dress code enforcement division lost her shit that one time an upgrade added a new icon to the toolbar and the button she needed was no longer the ninth one from the left. (We could require critical thinking of Debra, but that'd make sense, better to yell at IT for "disrupting her workflow".)

It's amazing how hard it is for some people to use computers (particularly boomers).  It's as if simply putting something on a computer is enough for all thinking skills used elsewhere to go out the window.  Especially if it contradicts how things "have always been done".  It's amazing how many people at work think 80s mainframes are easier to use than modern webapps, simply because that's what NYSDOT used between when they got computers in the first place and relatively recently (the timesheets only switched a couple years ago, and everything else only switched six months ago).

IT is even worse than one would think, though, and it comes down to how the commercial software was selected in the first place.  One would assume that the commercial software is used because it fits the company's criteria or has enterprise management features.  This is not the case.  Finding the best cost/benefit ratio for software selection is not how IT works.  Instead, IT managers ask themselves "who is the big kahuna who has already solved this problem" (that's the actual phrase my boss on my internship used).  This basically means the most expensive software from the biggest company will always be selected, regardless of whether it's the lowest cost option for the features needed or whether it even works the best way for the company needs at all.

This seems to have carried forward into the home market.  Everybody uses Windows because Microsoft is the "big kahuna" of the operating system world, and because that's what they've always used.  Doesn't matter that distros like Mint and Ubuntu are just as user-friendly if not more so.  They'd rather just stick with what they know, even when "what they know" removes features for no reason and stops being secure and reliable.

In regard to the OP's question, I don't plan even to assess my current laptop for Windows 11, let alone accept a free upgrade to it (which I suspect may eventually be forced on us, like Windows 10 was).

As for whether the various flavors of *nix operating systems have an opportunity to expand desktop/laptop market share at the expense of Windows, I think there is still a degree of lock-in arising from the fact that industry-standard software packages--not just Microsoft Office or Adobe products like Photoshop and Acrobat, but also AutoDesk's AutoCAD and Bentley's MicroStation CAD suites--are native to Windows.

Yes, there are Linux equivalents for many of these (even the CAD programs); yes, many of the file formats involved have cross-platform support if they are not actually open standards; and yes, feature withdrawal and coercive attempts to force the cloud onto home users (Adobe does this with Document Cloud, and Bentley does this with Bentley Connect) are becoming entrenched as negatives of the Windows world.

But it's still true that familiarity with a major Windows program is a marketable skill in ways that expertise with its Linux equivalent is not.  Also, collaboration is more straightforward when everyone involved is using the same program and operating system, even if the file formats involved are supported by multiple operating systems running on different platforms.  For example, if you receive a Word document and are expected to return it with suggested changes annotated using Track Changes, LibreOffice will probably handle the job just fine, but with Word there is no doubt (this is partly a consequence of Microsoft's slipshod implementation of its own standard).  In some settings, such as state DOTs exchanging CAD files with consultants, there is no flexibility to go outside a given program/OS combination because conformity requirements go well beyond OS and program to things like workspace version.

Quote from: J N Winkler on October 12, 2021, 12:27:53 AM
Yes, there are Linux equivalents for many of these (even the CAD programs); yes, many of the file formats involved have cross-platform support if they are not actually open standards [...] But it's still true that familiarity with a major Windows program is a marketable skill in ways that expertise with its Linux equivalent is not. 

I've never touched the current version of Photoshop or Illustrator, but I would have no qualms with marketing myself as proficient in either, because I am proficient in Gimp and Inkscape; I am confident enough in my grasp of the generalized key skills in using both (for example, using vector addition/subtraction tools to build up a vector object) that I could adapt to using the industry-standard product if it were required of me in a job. These key skills are more important than proficiency in a specific program, because they are what's retained when a commercial program inevitably reshuffles its user interface in a .0 release. The only necessary orientation period would be to identify any differences in terminology between the two programs and locate the functions in the commercial UI, both of which could be accomplished through a simple Web search.

Quote from: J N Winkler on October 12, 2021, 12:27:53 AMIn some settings, such as state DOTs exchanging CAD files with consultants, there is no flexibility to go outside a given program/OS combination because conformity requirements go well beyond OS and program to things like workspace version.

This is a very important point. I'm taking a course called Highway Engineering at university, and for our design project, we have to use a version of AutoCAD specifically customized by WisDOT. It has all their standards built right in, so it's the only choice. I can't even download that to my computer unfortunately, like I can with the standard AutoCAD for students.

Been using Windows 11 for a couple weeks now. Here's my more in-depth thoughts so far:

* Windows Explorer seems slow, especially when browsing OneDrive folders. Right-clicking takes too long to open the context menu.
* On context menus: too many things are under the "show more options" drop-down.
* The quick settings are nice, although changing audio output is harder than I wish it was.
* Significantly fewer options are available by right-clicking anywhere on the taskbar. Fortunately, right-clicking the Windows icon still brings up everything.
* I miss the compact taskbar quite a lot.

The big issue I've had since Tuesday evening: explorer.exe not starting correctly. I started my computer, logged in as usual, and although other programs would start, Explorer would not--correctly, at least. Even opening Task Manager and forcing "Windows Explorer" to restart wouldn't do the trick. I eventually had to use command prompt, performing this:

reg delete HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\IrisService /f && shutdown -r -t 0

...which forced a restart, after which I have been able to restart Explorer using Task Manager and get everything back.

Initial research showed that it could have been related to my drive (solid-state, for the record), but this seemed unlikely after I was eventually able to get Explorer to start. At this point, I've just gotten into the habit of sleeping my computer at night, as opposed to shutting it down, while I wait for another update of Windows that may or may not fix whatever problem is causing this. It might not even be related to Windows 11, although the timing sure seems coincidental.

---

Besides these things, I have been asking myself whether it was worth it. At this point, I probably would turn back the clock and keep Windows 10 for a while. One of the best features, oddly, has been the vastly improved multi-monitor support. I regularly switch between a 32:9 monitor and my laptop monitor; Windows handles these switch-offs much better than before. I often used to lose windows when I switched back to my laptop, having to use a special trick just to move it back into view. This improvement has made life much easier, but at quite a few costs (so far at least).

Quoteexplorer.exe

I never understood why the file explorer, the desktop shell, and the taskbar were all part of the same program.

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 24, 2021, 12:18:54 AM

Quoteexplorer.exe

I never understood why the file explorer, the desktop shell, and the taskbar were all part of the same program.

It doesn't make troubleshooting very easy, that's for sure. The entire taskbar was blank, and I couldn't do much apart from the 'run' command, use task manager, and a few other independent programs.

I do not need to...nor would I want to....

I am 100% Mac/iPhone/apple exclusive.  My husband has a windows PC and an android phone and I hate them both.  Takes five minutes for his laptop to come on and be ready to use, everything is slow, the sound sucks, stuff crashes all the time....

trying to find something on his phone or to switch apps or something is a hassle.  I hate when I have to use one of his devices.  I cannot imagine Windows 11 would be any better.

I will never again own a computer or a phone that is not an apple device.  They are just too easy to use.  My MacBook takes less than 30 seconds to boot up from a complete restart or power down...my battery lasts 5-7 hours when using things like music and safari...and I can view things from my phone instantly on my laptop...and I know both will last me for years...I had my last iPhone for 6 years. 

I honestly don't understand why more people aren't apple fans...except that all of it is expensive. 

Quote from: achilles765 on October 24, 2021, 09:09:35 AM
My MacBook takes less than 30 seconds to boot up from a complete restart or power down.

My wife's Dell laptop with Windows 10 takes 6 seconds to boot up from no power.

Quote from: achilles765 on October 24, 2021, 09:09:35 AM
I honestly don't understand why more people aren't apple fans...except that all of it is expensive. 

Because Apple has a rigid view of how a computer should be used, and if your use case doesn't match up with what Apple had in mind, you are left to twist in the wind.

Simple example: I got an iPad a few years ago and wanted to set the background to this drawing of a dragon.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denexa.com%2Fwp-content%2Fthemes%2Fdenexa-responsive%2Fimages%2Fshadow_eating_small.png&hash=f35145f2171357bfb49cfd8a08d6e9fff52d269a)

Now, obviously, the focal point of the drawing is the table and the dragon's face, so that's what I wanted visible. You would think "vertical image, focal point in top half of image" would be a fairly common use case, considering that describes pretty much any picture of a person taken in portrait orientation. However, iOS had provided no way at all to set which part of the image would be displayed. The one true way of displaying an image to Apple is apparently to fit the drawing to the left and right edges of the screen and then crop the top and bottom off. Which meant I just got the plate, the fork and knife, and the dragon's belly. Kind of not the cute dragon image I was wanting. Also, at the time, there was no means to crop the image using the default software that comes with iOS (I say "at the time" only because Android provides this by default and I would hope Apple's gotten a clue since then). I ended up having to open the image in the image viewer, pan and zoom it to how I wanted, take a screenshot, and then set that as the background–a pretty stupid workaround for Apple deciding they knew best and not providing any other way to do it like a simple "anchor to top" option or even–gasp–letting the user draw a selection box for the region they wanted displayed.

I finally got windows 11 and it's doing good.

At home, I'm still on Windows 7 and Office 2003.  I'm a happy man.

"Obsolescence" is relative.  If the technology does what you want, and it does so within parameters you deem acceptable, it's not obsolete.  I visit some basic websites (such as this forum), read and send e-mails, work with some basic spreadsheets in Excel, and write lots of basic text presentations in Word.  Rarely (once a year at most) I'll whip up a basic PowerPoint presentation.  My current setup suits me just fine and I'm comfortable with it. 

I realize (boo-hoo) that when my current machine dies I'll have to upgrade both operating system and Office version (I doubt I'll be able to reinstall Office 2003 at this time), but I'm in no hurry for it.

At work, we're still on Windows 10.  And I despise Office 365.

Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 24, 2021, 05:34:24 PM
"Obsolescence" is relative.  If the technology does what you want, and it does so within parameters you deem acceptable, it's not obsolete.

This is only partly true, at least in regards to operating systems and Web browsers, since those have direct implications on security. Windows is a sieve under the best circumstances, so it's critical to have the most hilarious security bugs fixed before they can be exploited. The longer an OS stays in use past end-of-life, the more likely it is to have an unpatched security hole somewhere in the system.

Application software is less critical to be upgraded, but sometimes it becomes more of a pain to use the old version than to upgrade, especially if you're using it to create files that are shared with others. Even open file formats sometimes change. I've been doing some graphic design work lately, and some puzzling discrepancies have occurred due to him using a version of the program released 4 years ago.

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 24, 2021, 06:47:47 PM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 24, 2021, 05:34:24 PM
"Obsolescence" is relative.  If the technology does what you want, and it does so within parameters you deem acceptable, it's not obsolete.

This is only partly true, at least in regards to operating systems and Web browsers, since those have direct implications on security. Windows is a sieve under the best circumstances, so it's critical to have the most hilarious security bugs fixed before they can be exploited. The longer an OS stays in use past end-of-life, the more likely it is to have an unpatched security hole somewhere in the system.

Application software is less critical to be upgraded, but sometimes it becomes more of a pain to use the old version than to upgrade, especially if you're using it to create files that are shared with others. Even open file formats sometimes change. I've been doing some graphic design work lately, and some puzzling discrepancies have occurred due to him using a version of the program released 4 years ago.

I don't disagree, but note my original caveat (bolded above).

Quote from: kalvado on October 08, 2021, 02:09:59 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on October 08, 2021, 01:52:06 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 07, 2021, 11:49:44 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on October 07, 2021, 10:57:12 PM
But isn't the underlying kernel being the base of so many consumer products good enough? Linux is brilliant when it comes to providing something for someone else to fork into something that their users find useful: Android, for instance, or Xbox, or even a refrigerator or washer/dryer. There are very few people that really need Linux (in whatever distro form) as a desktop operating system.

Er...not really. What makes Linux great is that the software is all developed and maintained on a volunteer basis. People write Linux and Linux software because they want to write it. If they're not enjoying themselves, they bow out of development. That means that the developers are proud of their work and aren't cutting corners because they only get paid so much and they just need a quick fix to get their boss off their ass. Software ships when it's ready, not because Marketing promised a big customer we'd have a release by the end of the month, and besides, what are the odds that someone will use that feature with their language set to Norwegian but in the US/Central time zone during Daylight Savings, using a dark mode theme? It's not worth paying someone to spend the time to fix it.

I feel like you've underscored my point rather than rebut it. Open-source development is brilliant for developers, engineers, programmers, and whatnot specifically because of the flexibility in its framework and deployment. It has a great deal of variability in where it can be applied. At least from my point of view, this is why it's such a good base layer for so many other larger projects. But I don't think the standard Linux distro was ever designed for, you know, 80% of end-users who mostly just use their computer for writing stuff, browsing the web, and maybe some photo editing from time to time. For that stuff, Mac and Windows are just better integrated into the rest of our lives, and do most things that most users need to do pretty well. For everyone else, there's Linux.

From personal experience - Linux handles those everyday tasks pretty much as good as Windows. I was pleasantly surprised with that when I installed Ubuntu. I would dare saying certain everyday tasks work even better than under WIndows.
Open source is a interesting concept, not necessarily improving my perception of things.

Same I switched from Windows to initially ChromeOS then to Ubuntu. I agree too with you  on this.

Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 24, 2021, 05:34:24 PMI realize (boo-hoo) that when my current machine dies I'll have to upgrade both operating system and Office version (I doubt I'll be able to reinstall Office 2003 at this time), but I'm in no hurry for it.

I reached the boo-hoo point earlier this year with my old Asus gaming laptop, which was 10 years old and running Windows 7.  I have discovered that Office 2003 will work under Windows 10, to a point, but the plugin that allows 2003 to access XML formats is now very hard to find online.  When I installed it, I also had trouble getting the Office 2003 programs to use it to open XML files when needed--I've managed this for Word, but not for Excel or PowerPoint.  I think there is compatibility troubleshooting I need to do.  (I had to fiddle with compatibility settings to get my now 23-year-old copy of CorelDraw to run scripts properly.)

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 24, 2021, 12:26:54 PM

Quote from: achilles765 on October 24, 2021, 09:09:35 AM
I honestly don't understand why more people aren't apple fans...except that all of it is expensive. 

Because Apple has a rigid view of how a computer should be used, and if your use case doesn't match up with what Apple had in mind, you are left to twist in the wind.

Simple example: I got an iPad a few years ago and wanted to set the background to this drawing of a dragon.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denexa.com%2Fwp-content%2Fthemes%2Fdenexa-responsive%2Fimages%2Fshadow_eating_small.png&hash=f35145f2171357bfb49cfd8a08d6e9fff52d269a)

Now, obviously, the focal point of the drawing is the table and the dragon's face, so that's what I wanted visible. You would think "vertical image, focal point in top half of image" would be a fairly common use case, considering that describes pretty much any picture of a person taken in portrait orientation. However, iOS had provided no way at all to set which part of the image would be displayed. The one true way of displaying an image to Apple is apparently to fit the drawing to the left and right edges of the screen and then crop the top and bottom off. Which meant I just got the plate, the fork and knife, and the dragon's belly. Kind of not the cute dragon image I was wanting. Also, at the time, there was no means to crop the image using the default software that comes with iOS (I say "at the time" only because Android provides this by default and I would hope Apple's gotten a clue since then). I ended up having to open the image in the image viewer, pan and zoom it to how I wanted, take a screenshot, and then set that as the background–a pretty stupid workaround for Apple deciding they knew best and not providing any other way to do it like a simple "anchor to top" option or even–gasp–letting the user draw a selection box for the region they wanted displayed.

It's especially ridiculous with ports.  Need Ethernet?  You're stuck using a dongle.  Analog headphones?  Dongle for that too.

Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 24, 2021, 05:34:24 PM
At home, I'm still on Windows 7 and Office 2003.  I'm a happy man.

"Obsolescence" is relative.  If the technology does what you want, and it does so within parameters you deem acceptable, it's not obsolete.  I visit some basic websites (such as this forum), read and send e-mails, work with some basic spreadsheets in Excel, and write lots of basic text presentations in Word.  Rarely (once a year at most) I'll whip up a basic PowerPoint presentation.  My current setup suits me just fine and I'm comfortable with it. 

I realize (boo-hoo) that when my current machine dies I'll have to upgrade both operating system and Office version (I doubt I'll be able to reinstall Office 2003 at this time), but I'm in no hurry for it.

At work, we're still on Windows 10.  And I despise Office 365.

Won't you be at a higher risk for viruses?

Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 24, 2021, 05:34:24 PM
At home, I'm still on Windows 7 and Office 2003.  I'm a happy man.

"Obsolescence" is relative.  If the technology does what you want, and it does so within parameters you deem acceptable, it's not obsolete.  I visit some basic websites (such as this forum), read and send e-mails, work with some basic spreadsheets in Excel, and write lots of basic text presentations in Word.  Rarely (once a year at most) I'll whip up a basic PowerPoint presentation.  My current setup suits me just fine and I'm comfortable with it. 

Windows 7 is obsolete because it no longer gets security updates.  I believe Win8 has a couple years of life left.  It's not about whether or not it does what you want; it's about security and viruses.

QuoteI realize (boo-hoo) that when my current machine dies I'll have to upgrade both operating system and Office version (I doubt I'll be able to reinstall Office 2003 at this time), but I'm in no hurry for it.

You're a candidate for Ubuntu or Mint.  They work just fine on older machines, and LibreOffice will work with Office 2003 files.  The only caveat is other software you might be using.  You'll have to determine if it can be replaced.

QuoteAt work, we're still on Windows 10.  And I despise Office 365.

Win10 will be supported for many more years.  You're on your own as far as Office 365 goes (I never used it).

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 24, 2021, 10:39:07 PM

Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 24, 2021, 05:34:24 PM
At home, I'm still on Windows 7 and Office 2003.  I'm a happy man.

"Obsolescence" is relative.  If the technology does what you want, and it does so within parameters you deem acceptable, it's not obsolete.  I visit some basic websites (such as this forum), read and send e-mails, work with some basic spreadsheets in Excel, and write lots of basic text presentations in Word.  Rarely (once a year at most) I'll whip up a basic PowerPoint presentation.  My current setup suits me just fine and I'm comfortable with it. 

I realize (boo-hoo) that when my current machine dies I'll have to upgrade both operating system and Office version (I doubt I'll be able to reinstall Office 2003 at this time), but I'm in no hurry for it.

At work, we're still on Windows 10.  And I despise Office 365.

Won't you be at a higher risk for viruses?

Possibly, but I'm not online all the time and I don't open attachments that come with e-mails from from Nigerian princes.  With what I do, I'm okay with the risk.

Quote from: achilles765 on October 24, 2021, 09:09:35 AM
I honestly don't understand why more people aren't apple fans...except that all of it is expensive.

Because I own my machine, not crApple.  I don't need to use their software to play MY music on MY computer.  Not only that, but I absolutely despise that @#$& crApple GUI.  To their credit, they do support open source software, and much of the underlying stuff is UNIX-based (One of the BSDs, IIRC).

I have an old (2012) Mac desktop with a MacOS version that can no longer be upgraded, but the hardware works perfectly (Apple's main selling point is their excellent hardware, as far as I'm concerned).  I run Linux Mint inside VirtualBox, and it's now a far better machine than it is when using MacOS directly.  I can run other OSes anytime I want to, including Windows if I ever had the desire (I don't).

Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 24, 2021, 10:57:34 PM
Possibly, but I'm not online all the time and I don't open attachments that come with e-mails from from Nigerian princes.  With what I do, I'm okay with the risk.

My main problem with this approach is that it relies a bit too much on hope. Using an older OS with less security patches, you have to 'hope' that someone doesn't create a vulnerability for that older OS (especially one still in wider use), and then you have to hope again that a patch for the vulnerability is issued somewhat promptly, which there is no guarantee of.

The more staggering thing to me: Windows 10 was quite well received. Why not upgrade to it?

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on October 24, 2021, 11:00:08 PM

Quote from: achilles765 on October 24, 2021, 09:09:35 AM
I honestly don't understand why more people aren't apple fans...except that all of it is expensive.

Because I own my machine, not crApple.

If by "own" you mean "have more control", that's only a little true. And perhaps not enough to make a meaningful difference to most people.

I think the bigger issue is just that Apple computers are significantly more expensive than their PC counterparts. That's not as true in the smartphone market, thus Apple maintains a dominant share of the mobile phone market in the US (not so elsewhere). For the average user, Mac computers are great, and work well with their other Apple devices (statistically, a lot of people have at least one Apple device), so it's a logical choice for anyone who isn't into super geeky stuff or gaming. But again: very expensive. More of an investment than I think most people are willing to make.

If I formatted Apple hardware and installed Linux on it (doable), would the hardware be any better than what I'd get if I spent the same amount on a competitor's hardware? I can see no reason why it would be. So you're paying a premium for the software, which is...a crippled Unix. So what exactly is the added value?

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 25, 2021, 12:42:02 AM
If I formatted Apple hardware and installed Linux on it (doable), would the hardware be any better than what I'd get if I spent the same amount on a competitor's hardware? I can see no reason why it would be. So you're paying a premium for the software, which is...a crippled Unix. So what exactly is the added value?

Crippled or not, few (if any) other software/hardware combos will work as well with other Apple devices as .... other Apple devices.

While most people are buying Apple devices for the software, Apple deserves credit for their hardware. Few other computers are as well screwed together as a Macintosh (not to mention other Apple devices). With the recent introduction of the M1 and M1 Max, Apple seems very interested in stepping up their game in the 'internals' arena, an area where they have arguably overcharged for years.

Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2021, 02:06:03 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 25, 2021, 12:42:02 AM
If I formatted Apple hardware and installed Linux on it (doable), would the hardware be any better than what I'd get if I spent the same amount on a competitor's hardware? I can see no reason why it would be. So you're paying a premium for the software, which is...a crippled Unix. So what exactly is the added value?

Crippled or not, few (if any) other software/hardware combos will work as well with other Apple devices as .... other Apple devices.

Vendor lock-in stopped being cool in the 80s.

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on October 24, 2021, 11:00:08 PM
Because I own my machine, not crApple.  I don't need to use their software to play MY music on MY computer.

I've had no problem with iTunes and 7 days (= 168 hours) worth of CDs of music, although I have to use an external CD drive to add new CDs on my current (2019-present) computer.

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 25, 2021, 02:23:31 AM

Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2021, 02:06:03 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 25, 2021, 12:42:02 AM
If I formatted Apple hardware and installed Linux on it (doable), would the hardware be any better than what I'd get if I spent the same amount on a competitor's hardware? I can see no reason why it would be. So you're paying a premium for the software, which is...a crippled Unix. So what exactly is the added value?

Crippled or not, few (if any) other software/hardware combos will work as well with other Apple devices as .... other Apple devices.

Vendor lock-in stopped being cool in the 80s.

I agree. I love being able to back up my Samsung phone's gallery automatically to several different services (I use OneDrive). But a lot of people seem to like Apple's services and are willing to lock into them.

Quote from: 1 on October 25, 2021, 06:44:31 AM
I've had no problem with iTunes and 7 days (= 168 hours) worth of CDs of music, although I have to use an external CD drive to add new CDs on my current (2019-present) computer.

Why in the world would I open an iTunes account just to be able to listen to my own music?  That is requiring permission from Apple to use what I own.  Microsoft doesn't even require that.

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on October 25, 2021, 03:04:58 PM
Why in the world would I open an iTunes account just to be able to listen to my own music?

You don't need an Apple ID to use iTunes. It's only required to purchase songs or listen to music via Apple Music.

Early on, I want to say that iTunes had pretty good integration with external audio devices, rendering it a helpful application for home media systems. But that advantage has long since expired.

For the record: iTunes is on the way out. It's already long discontinued on the Mac. I suspect it will be replaced within the next couple of years by something that is hopefully way better, as it's very long in the tooth.

If I can't open a file manager window to some directory and see a screen's worth of audio files there that I can open with whatever program I want, it's not worth paying for, in my opinion.

The last job I worked, it was pretty funny seeing everyone else lamenting that there was "no music" because we were out in the sticks in Slaughterville with no cell service. Of course nobody had an FM radio, either. Had I brought headphones, I could have easily listened to the music stored directly on my phone. (I chose not to offer to connect to the Bluetooth speaker because I suspect my musical taste would not have been very well-received.)

Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2021, 03:11:51 PM
You don't need an Apple ID to use iTunes. It's only required to purchase songs or listen to music via Apple Music.

When I got this Mac in 2013, an Apple ID was required, and uploading music went through iTunes.  Maybe that's no longer the case with later versions of MacOS, but I can't upgrade the OS now, anyway; it's too old.  I use it as a Linux box via VirtualBox.

Okay, Microsoft edge is better on windows 11 but some parts aren't working right

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on October 25, 2021, 03:04:58 PM

Quote from: 1 on October 25, 2021, 06:44:31 AM
I've had no problem with iTunes and 7 days (= 168 hours) worth of CDs of music, although I have to use an external CD drive to add new CDs on my current (2019-present) computer.

Why in the world would I open an iTunes account just to be able to listen to my own music?  That is requiring permission from Apple to use what I own.  Microsoft doesn't even require that.

46,000 songs in iTunes on my windows 10 rig, all synced to my 512GB iPhone.

Never once made an iTunes account for it. I just hope they keep it that way, but for 20 years it's been that way.

I feel I also one of the only people that 1) has very few, if any, issues with iTunes (and I clearly use it a ton), and 2) due to that, actually like the program.

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 25, 2021, 03:43:27 PM
The last job I worked, it was pretty funny seeing everyone else lamenting that there was "no music" because we were out in the sticks in Slaughterville with no cell service. Of course nobody had an FM radio, either. Had I brought headphones, I could have easily listened to the music stored directly on my phone. (I chose not to offer to connect to the Bluetooth speaker because I suspect my musical taste would not have been very well-received.)

The same issue occurs on airplanes as well; unless you pay for wifi, you have no service. The trick is to simply download the music to your phone. All of my Spotify music is available offline. But then I recognize that offline audio is generally a premium feature within these streaming services.

↑ Indeed. I'd rather do the pay-for-a-file model where I can buy whatever music I want when I have the money and inclination to do so, instead of being locked into paying a recurring $X/month. Usually what happens is I make a note of any songs I've heard on the radio or whatever that I like enough to pay for, and then once I have some extra cash laying around I'll buy twenty or thirty of them all at once.

My 4 year old laptop can't run it, but that seems to be a known problem with this new OS. I'm probably not going to use it until I either get a new computer or 3-4 years down the line.

Update to an earlier problem:

Quote from: jakeroot on October 23, 2021, 10:37:33 PM
Been using Windows 11 for a couple weeks now. Here's my more in-depth thoughts so far:
...
The big issue I've had since Tuesday evening: explorer.exe not starting correctly. I started my computer, logged in as usual, and although other programs would start, Explorer would not--correctly, at least. Even opening Task Manager and forcing "Windows Explorer" to restart wouldn't do the trick. I eventually had to use command prompt, performing this:

Code Select Expand

reg delete HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\IrisService /f && shutdown -r -t 0

...which forced a restart, after which I have been able to restart Explorer using Task Manager and get everything back.

Initial research showed that it could have been related to my drive (solid-state, for the record), but this seemed unlikely after I was eventually able to get Explorer to start. At this point, I've just gotten into the habit of sleeping my computer at night, as opposed to shutting it down, while I wait for another update of Windows that may or may not fix whatever problem is causing this. It might not even be related to Windows 11, although the timing sure seems coincidental.

Whatever this problem was, it became a serious issue in time. I suspect a lot of issues that I may have had with Windows 11 were rooted in my decision to "upgrade" rather than clean-install.

At any rate, I have totally wiped my C drive and fresh-installed Windows 10 again. I have four SATA drives (three SSDs and a very large HDD), and most of my files were stored on those drives. But given how many apps install data into the 'appdata' folder, it'll be a while before I'm back to where I was. But I'm much happier now.

Quote from: jakeroot on November 03, 2021, 08:11:21 PM
Update to an earlier problem:

Quote from: jakeroot on October 23, 2021, 10:37:33 PM
Been using Windows 11 for a couple weeks now. Here's my more in-depth thoughts so far:
...
The big issue I've had since Tuesday evening: explorer.exe not starting correctly. I started my computer, logged in as usual, and although other programs would start, Explorer would not--correctly, at least. Even opening Task Manager and forcing "Windows Explorer" to restart wouldn't do the trick. I eventually had to use command prompt, performing this:

Code Select Expand

reg delete HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\IrisService /f && shutdown -r -t 0

...which forced a restart, after which I have been able to restart Explorer using Task Manager and get everything back.

Initial research showed that it could have been related to my drive (solid-state, for the record), but this seemed unlikely after I was eventually able to get Explorer to start. At this point, I've just gotten into the habit of sleeping my computer at night, as opposed to shutting it down, while I wait for another update of Windows that may or may not fix whatever problem is causing this. It might not even be related to Windows 11, although the timing sure seems coincidental.

Whatever this problem was, it became a serious issue in time. I suspect a lot of issues that I may have had with Windows 11 were rooted in my decision to "upgrade" rather than clean-install.

At any rate, I have totally wiped my C drive and fresh-installed Windows 10 again. I have four SATA drives (three SSDs and a very large HDD), and most of my files were stored on those drives. But given how many apps install data into the 'appdata' folder, it'll be a while before I'm back to where I was. But I'm much happier now.

I had similar issues last time around when I first upgraded my old laptop from Windows 7 to 10 shortly after it came out. A clean install fixed everything.

Quote from: jakeroot on November 03, 2021, 08:11:21 PMWhatever this problem was, it became a serious issue in time. I suspect a lot of issues that I may have had with Windows 11 were rooted in my decision to "upgrade" rather than clean-install.

In-place upgrades do have a tendency to go sour, which is the reason I haven't done it in any recent decade and prevented it on my Windows 7 machine by removing the updates that were intended to facilitate the upgrade to 10.

My current machine does pass the Windows 11 test, so Windows Update now has nag language for 11.  However, I am preventing the upgrade by using the postpone-updates-35-days function to limit updating to a brief window at the end of the month when I do it manually under close supervision.

Quote from: jakeroot on November 03, 2021, 08:11:21 PMAt any rate, I have totally wiped my C drive and fresh-installed Windows 10 again. I have four SATA drives (three SSDs and a very large HDD), and most of my files were stored on those drives. But given how many apps install data into the 'appdata' folder, it'll be a while before I'm back to where I was. But I'm much happier now.

Did you have a backup of AppData?  I don't maintain a full C: backup, but I do use robocopy to maintain a complete copy of C:\Users (which includes AppData folders for all user profiles) on a portable external HD.

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 04, 2021, 01:36:54 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on November 03, 2021, 08:11:21 PMWhatever this problem was, it became a serious issue in time. I suspect a lot of issues that I may have had with Windows 11 were rooted in my decision to "upgrade" rather than clean-install.

In-place upgrades do have a tendency to go sour, which is the reason I haven't done it in any recent decade and prevented it on my Windows 7 machine by removing the updates that were intended to facilitate the upgrade to 10.

My current machine does pass the Windows 11 test, so Windows Update now has nag language for 11.  However, I am preventing the upgrade by using the postpone-updates-35-days function to limit updating to a brief window at the end of the month when I do it manually under close supervision.

My current machine was built for me with Windows 10, so this was the first in-place major upgrade that I've ever done with it. I don't know why I thought it would go off without a hitch; overall I've had good luck with Windows, but all luck eventually runs out.

I'm not sure when I'll eventually go to Windows 11 again. I noticed that there was some other issues in terms of slow response times in certain programs. Some of the Adobe products seemed quite a bit slower on Windows 11. There was also File Explorer, which had very serious, almost-maddening lag to it.

Quote from: J N Winkler on November 04, 2021, 01:36:54 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on November 03, 2021, 08:11:21 PMAt any rate, I have totally wiped my C drive and fresh-installed Windows 10 again. I have four SATA drives (three SSDs and a very large HDD), and most of my files were stored on those drives. But given how many apps install data into the 'appdata' folder, it'll be a while before I'm back to where I was. But I'm much happier now.

Did you have a backup of AppData?  I don't maintain a full C: backup, but I do use robocopy to maintain a complete copy of C:\Users (which includes AppData folders for all user profiles) on a portable external HD.

Indeed I do, and I'm migrating the data over as necessary and only if it doesn't cause other issues.

Quote from: jakeroot on November 04, 2021, 04:33:57 PM
There was also File Explorer, which had very serious, almost-maddening lag to it.

I wonder if that's related to the memory leak it had at launch.  Not sure if that's been patched yet or not.

I made the upgrade two weeks ago, and it feels functionally similar to Windows 10.

Quote from: vdeane on November 04, 2021, 08:28:13 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on November 04, 2021, 04:33:57 PM
There was also File Explorer, which had very serious, almost-maddening lag to it.

I wonder if that's related to the memory leak it had at launch.  Not sure if that's been patched yet or not.

I noticed it was worse when using the OneDrive folders, which, unfortunately for me, is where I store a lot of files. Back on Windows 10, everything is lightning-fast.

I might wait another month or two, then do a clean install of Windows 11.

Quote from: SectorZ on October 25, 2021, 04:56:30 PM

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on October 25, 2021, 03:04:58 PM

Quote from: 1 on October 25, 2021, 06:44:31 AM
I've had no problem with iTunes and 7 days (= 168 hours) worth of CDs of music, although I have to use an external CD drive to add new CDs on my current (2019-present) computer.

Why in the world would I open an iTunes account just to be able to listen to my own music?  That is requiring permission from Apple to use what I own.  Microsoft doesn't even require that.

46,000 songs in iTunes on my windows 10 rig, all synced to my 512GB iPhone.

Never once made an iTunes account for it. I just hope they keep it that way, but for 20 years it's been that way.

I feel I also one of the only people that 1) has very few, if any, issues with iTunes (and I clearly use it a ton), and 2) due to that, actually like the program.

My father listens to 60000 songs on his G7 Thinq, which is 64GB
Having to listen to them in the car when driving, however, is  :ded: :pan:

Quote from: ET21 on October 26, 2021, 09:17:03 AM
My 4 year old laptop can't run it, but that seems to be a known problem with this new OS. I'm probably not going to use it until I either get a new computer or 3-4 years down the line.

Same here.
My father has a 11 year old Dell Studio 1749, has NO TPM, NO UEFI, and has old CPU.
My mother has a 9 year old Lenovo IdeaPad G780, has NO TPM, UEFI, and has old CPU.
However, my computer can run windows 11. No problem! Albeit, the emojis are  :ded:

UEFI is shit.

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 10, 2021, 02:03:21 PM
UEFI is shit.

Totally agree.  :poke:

Another update on windows 11, Microsoft edge works fine now but the Microsoft store isn't working properly

Quote from: stormwatch7721 on November 10, 2021, 03:46:17 PM
Another update on windows 11, Microsoft edge works fine now but the Microsoft store isn't working properly

Thank God I waited before getting windows 11...

I'll just use it as an excuse to keep saving for a new computer. Let someone else be the beta testers.