This is true? - Geographic oddities that defy conventional wisdom

[jeffandnicole]

Is there a state where the changing course of rivers has resulted in funky state boundaries?

Um...the 2 that were just mentioned before your question.

[The Nature Boy]

I mean, "hasn't." Sorry. This is what I get for typing quickly on my phone.

My point was, I'm trying to find a pair of states where a shifting river hasn't resulted in a state having land on a side of river where it shouldn't.

[US 89]

I mean, "hasn't." Sorry. This is what I get for typing quickly on my phone.

My point was, I'm trying to find a pair of states where a shifting river hasn't resulted in a state having land on a side of river where it shouldn't.

Are you trying to find rivers that haven't shifted, or states where the river has changed but the borders changed with it? If it's the first one, then California/Arizona on the CO river probably fits.

[CNGL-Leudimin]

And heck, Spain is on two sides of the Mediterranean.

(And those of you who are interested in this sort of thing should follow the Geography Now YouTube channel, if you don't already.)

And not only Ceuta and Melilla, but also several islands along the coast of Morocco (namely Perejil island, Alhucemas islands, Velez de la Gomera rock and Chafarinas islands). Of course all of them disputed with Morocco.

[jp the roadgeek]

There's a couple little pieces of Delaware that are on the New Jersey side of the Delaware River

[Roadgeekteen]

And heck, Spain is on two sides of the Mediterranean.

(And those of you who are interested in this sort of thing should follow the Geography Now YouTube channel, if you don't already.)

And not only Ceuta and Melilla, but also several islands along the coast of Morocco (namely Perejil island, Alhucemas islands, Velez de la Gomera rock and Chafarinas islands). Of course all of them disputed with Morocco.

Why does Morraco even bother about this anymore?

[kalvado]

And heck, Spain is on two sides of the Mediterranean.

(And those of you who are interested in this sort of thing should follow the Geography Now YouTube channel, if you don't already.)

And not only Ceuta and Melilla, but also several islands along the coast of Morocco (namely Perejil island, Alhucemas islands, Velez de la Gomera rock and Chafarinas islands). Of course all of them disputed with Morocco.

Why does Morraco even bother about this anymore?

Because even small uninhabitable island can strongly change maps of fishing and navigation rights.

[The Nature Boy]

And heck, Spain is on two sides of the Mediterranean.

(And those of you who are interested in this sort of thing should follow the Geography Now YouTube channel, if you don't already.)

And not only Ceuta and Melilla, but also several islands along the coast of Morocco (namely Perejil island, Alhucemas islands, Velez de la Gomera rock and Chafarinas islands). Of course all of them disputed with Morocco.

Why does Morraco even bother about this anymore?

Because even small uninhabitable island can strongly change maps of fishing and navigation rights.

It's the same reason that the US and Soviet Union sat down to try to figure out their border in the Bering Strait. Countries don't like to give up rights to anything, regardless of how "useless" it may seem.

[ghYHZ]

Even Canada and Denmark have a dispute over an Island:

http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/hans-island-boundary-dispute-canada-denmark-territorial-conflict.html

And Canada and the US:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/tiny-island-subject-of-dispute-between-canada-and-u-s-1.1206664

[english si]

The United States is about 500 miles from France.

It's under 100 between St Croix and Saint Martin (where part of France in the EU borders part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands not in the EU). The USVI is part of the US (though not as much as Saint Martin is part of France, but more so than Sint Maartin is part of the Netherlands).

And with small Spanish enclaves in Africa,

And the Canary Islands, Reunion and Mayotte

the above discussed St. Pierre & Miquelon and the still not independent Caribbean islands

The UK territories (all of which want to remain as such), and constituent countries of the Kingdom of the Netherlands (plus the special municipalities of the country of the Netherlands in the Carribbean) are not in the EU (ditto French and UK claims on Antarctic land). The French ones in the Caribbean are definitely not 'still not independent' - they wanted to become fully part of France and, unlike a lot of places that were decolonised in the 60s - eg Malta and Cyprus wanting to become part of the UK, got that wish.

[PColumbus73]

The United States is about 500 miles from France.

It's under 100 between St Croix and Saint Martin (where part of France in the EU borders part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands not in the EU). The USVI is part of the US (though not as much as Saint Martin is part of France, but more so than Sint Maartin is part of the Netherlands).

And with small Spanish enclaves in Africa,

And the Canary Islands, Reunion and Mayotte

the above discussed St. Pierre & Miquelon and the still not independent Caribbean islands

The UK territories (all of which want to remain as such), and constituent countries of the Kingdom of the Netherlands (plus the special municipalities of the country of the Netherlands in the Carribbean) are not in the EU (ditto French and UK claims on Antarctic land). The French ones in the Caribbean are definitely not 'still not independent' - they wanted to become fully part of France and, unlike a lot of places that were decolonised in the 60s - eg Malta and Cyprus wanting to become part of the UK, got that wish.

True, I was thinking of the contiguous United States. I would guess that more people don't realize St. Pierre & Miquelon is actually a part of France and not Canada. When it comes to the Caribbean islands, we can argue that the United States is only a few hundred miles the UK, France and the Netherlands

[dvferyance]

As far as being fans of a particular team, it's also not hard to understand why the majority of people in Milwaukee are Packers fans and not Bears fans. #1, The Bears are from that state to the south that contains all those FIBs. #2, Milwaukee has somewhat of an inferiority complex towards Chicago. #3 Milwaukee/Wisconsin are natural rivals with Chicago/Illinois. It has more to do with this than proximity. and #4 The Bears Still Suck! As for being a Colts fan stuck in Milwaukee, I have no explanation for you  .

5. The Packers used to play 2 home games a year at County Stadium in Milwaukee until the 1990's.

They keyword is used to. Typically when a team used to play in a city but no longer does that city usually hates that team. St Louis hates the Rams San Diego hates the Chargers. It's also worth noting the UP of Michigan mostly supports the Packers over the Lions. I just think for whatever reason there is a bias against Chicago. A wisDOT map showing the Marquette reconstruction recognized Green Bay to the north and Madison to the west. However it would not recognize Chicago to the south instead it said to the airport.

[tchafe1978]

It's not like the Packers really went anywhere though. They've always been based in Green Bay even when they played games in Milwaukee. It's a different situation than say the Rams packing up and leaving L.A. for St. Louis and then 20 years later going back to L.A.. The Packers are really more of a statewide team anyway, not just Green Bay. You don't have to pretend you don't like the Packers anymore, it's obvious.

LGL56VL

[michravera]

And heck, Spain is on two sides of the Mediterranean.

(And those of you who are interested in this sort of thing should follow the Geography Now YouTube channel, if you don't already.)

And not only Ceuta and Melilla, but also several islands along the coast of Morocco (namely Perejil island, Alhucemas islands, Velez de la Gomera rock and Chafarinas islands). Of course all of them disputed with Morocco.

Why does Morraco even bother about this anymore?

Because even small uninhabitable island can strongly change maps of fishing and navigation rights.

It's the same reason that the US and Soviet Union sat down to try to figure out their border in the Bering Strait. Countries don't like to give up rights to anything, regardless of how "useless" it may seem.

Ceuta and Melilla are on the African MAINLAND. It's sort of the same situation as a couple of places in Washington State and, I believe, Minnesota where the boundary was drawn such that you can't get to the rest of the US from those places except by water. The situation with Spain and Morocco, however, is that Spain has long standing military and settlement presence that it doesn't want to relinquish. The people who live there think of themselves as Spanish, so the Spanish claim makes more sense to me. I am sure that the Moroccans have a reasonable case of something like "If they want to invade, they already have a beachhead. How can that be allowed?"

[english si]

When it comes to the Caribbean islands, we can argue that the United States is only a few hundred miles the UK, France and the Netherlands

British Overseas Territories are not part of the UK (also, Bermuda is closer to the US mainland).

I would say that Dutch parts of Caribbean are not part of the Netherlands (as opposed to the Kingdom of the Netherlands), however the Caribbean Netherlands (Bonaire, Saba and Sint Eustatius) have been since-2010. Aruba, Curaçao and Sint Maarten are separate countries dependent on the crown of the Netherlands. The BES islands use the US Dollar, and aren't in the EU properly, despite being special municipalities of the Netherlands (which is a messy status that no one seems to like).

[tckma]

Is there a state where the changing course of rivers has resulted in funky state boundaries? I understand that states don't like losing land area so no one ever set the boundary as "the other side of the river" but there are some odd ones.

Some portions of New Hampshire are on the other side of the Connecticut River, ditto for the Salmon Falls River on the Maine side.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_bend

Also, the state border of Delaware is officially designated as the New Jersey shoreline, as is the border of Maryland officially defined as the Virginia/West Virginia shoreline of the Potomac, unlike the border being in the center of the river as in many other such situations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_v._Delaware
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland_v._West_Virginia

[SP Cook]

Also, the state border of Delaware is officially designated as the New Jersey shoreline, as is the border of Maryland officially defined as the Virginia/West Virginia shoreline of the Potomac, unlike the border being in the center of the river as in many other such situations.

Because Virginia and the other states ceded their claims to the "territory north-west of the River Ohio" to the national government in the Articles of Confederation era, the border between West Virginia and Kentucky on one hand, and Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois on the other is the low water mark on the north or west side.  So very little of the Ohio river is in Ohio. 

BTW, at least in WV, you can fish on either bank of the Ohio or Potomac or from a boat in it with a fishing license from either state. 

[inkyatari]

Also, the state border of Delaware is officially designated as the New Jersey shoreline, as is the border of Maryland officially defined as the Virginia/West Virginia shoreline of the Potomac, unlike the border being in the center of the river as in many other such situations.

Because Virginia and the other states ceded their claims to the "territory north-west of the River Ohio" to the national government in the Articles of Confederation era, the border between West Virginia and Kentucky on one hand, and Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois on the other is the low water mark on the north or west side.  So very little of the Ohio river is in Ohio. 

BTW, at least in WV, you can fish on either bank of the Ohio or Potomac or from a boat in it with a fishing license from either state.

I recall stories of people fishing from the Illinois shore of the Ohio river getting tickets from the Kentucky dept of natural resources.

[The Nature Boy]

Also, the state border of Delaware is officially designated as the New Jersey shoreline, as is the border of Maryland officially defined as the Virginia/West Virginia shoreline of the Potomac, unlike the border being in the center of the river as in many other such situations.

Because Virginia and the other states ceded their claims to the "territory north-west of the River Ohio" to the national government in the Articles of Confederation era, the border between West Virginia and Kentucky on one hand, and Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois on the other is the low water mark on the north or west side.  So very little of the Ohio river is in Ohio. 

BTW, at least in WV, you can fish on either bank of the Ohio or Potomac or from a boat in it with a fishing license from either state.

I recall stories of people fishing from the Illinois shore of the Ohio river getting tickets from the Kentucky dept of natural resources.

I've always heard that the Harrah's Casino in Metropolis was on a boat in the Ohio River so they could evade Illinois's gaming laws by technically being in Kentucky.

Always sounded like hogwash to me.

[cl94]

Also, the state border of Delaware is officially designated as the New Jersey shoreline, as is the border of Maryland officially defined as the Virginia/West Virginia shoreline of the Potomac, unlike the border being in the center of the river as in many other such situations.

Because Virginia and the other states ceded their claims to the "territory north-west of the River Ohio" to the national government in the Articles of Confederation era, the border between West Virginia and Kentucky on one hand, and Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois on the other is the low water mark on the north or west side.  So very little of the Ohio river is in Ohio. 

BTW, at least in WV, you can fish on either bank of the Ohio or Potomac or from a boat in it with a fishing license from either state.

I recall stories of people fishing from the Illinois shore of the Ohio river getting tickets from the Kentucky dept of natural resources.

I've always heard that the Harrah's Casino in Metropolis was on a boat in the Ohio River so they could evade Illinois's gaming laws by technically being in Kentucky.

Which is probably true. Same reason why there are a ton of fireworks stores and the like on state borders.

[jeffandnicole]

Also, the state border of Delaware is officially designated as the New Jersey shoreline, as is the border of Maryland officially defined as the Virginia/West Virginia shoreline of the Potomac, unlike the border being in the center of the river as in many other such situations.

Because Virginia and the other states ceded their claims to the "territory north-west of the River Ohio" to the national government in the Articles of Confederation era, the border between West Virginia and Kentucky on one hand, and Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois on the other is the low water mark on the north or west side.  So very little of the Ohio river is in Ohio. 

BTW, at least in WV, you can fish on either bank of the Ohio or Potomac or from a boat in it with a fishing license from either state.

I recall stories of people fishing from the Illinois shore of the Ohio river getting tickets from the Kentucky dept of natural resources.

I've always heard that the Harrah's Casino in Metropolis was on a boat in the Ohio River so they could evade Illinois's gaming laws by technically being in Kentucky.

Always sounded like hogwash to me.

Anytime someone in NJ proposes something for the Delaware River in Salem County and south, Delaware (the State) can pretty much stop any project since they 'own' all the river in that area.  Unless there's an emergency, Delaware takes care of patrolling the river.

Further North in the Philly area, the two states are a bit more amicable towards things.  Both Philly and NJ State Police patrol the water and aren't restricted by state boundaries.

[hbelkins]

Also, the state border of Delaware is officially designated as the New Jersey shoreline, as is the border of Maryland officially defined as the Virginia/West Virginia shoreline of the Potomac, unlike the border being in the center of the river as in many other such situations.

Because Virginia and the other states ceded their claims to the "territory north-west of the River Ohio" to the national government in the Articles of Confederation era, the border between West Virginia and Kentucky on one hand, and Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois on the other is the low water mark on the north or west side.  So very little of the Ohio river is in Ohio.

I know that West Virginia controls most of the Ohio River because it, too, was a part of Virginia and Virginia originally had control of the river. Kentucky's border is the low-water mark as it existed in 1792 (when Kentucky became a state). Is there a year in the description of WV's border?

And WV also controls the Big Sandy and the Tug Fork where those rivers form the state boundary with Kentucky. WV owns and maintains most of the bridges.

I've always heard that the Harrah's Casino in Metropolis was on a boat in the Ohio River so they could evade Illinois's gaming laws by technically being in Kentucky.

Always sounded like hogwash to me.

Actually, it's sorta the other way around. When that riverboat first opened, Kentucky's attorney general (I have forgotten his name, as his political career never went any farther) threatened the boat operators if the boat strayed into Kentucky waters. He said, "We don't allow gambling in Kentucky."

Guess he never went to Churchill Downs or Keeneland.

[The Nature Boy]

Also, the state border of Delaware is officially designated as the New Jersey shoreline, as is the border of Maryland officially defined as the Virginia/West Virginia shoreline of the Potomac, unlike the border being in the center of the river as in many other such situations.

Because Virginia and the other states ceded their claims to the "territory north-west of the River Ohio" to the national government in the Articles of Confederation era, the border between West Virginia and Kentucky on one hand, and Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois on the other is the low water mark on the north or west side.  So very little of the Ohio river is in Ohio.

I know that West Virginia controls most of the Ohio River because it, too, was a part of Virginia and Virginia originally had control of the river. Kentucky's border is the low-water mark as it existed in 1792 (when Kentucky became a state). Is there a year in the description of WV's border?

And WV also controls the Big Sandy and the Tug Fork where those rivers form the state boundary with Kentucky. WV owns and maintains most of the bridges.

I've always heard that the Harrah's Casino in Metropolis was on a boat in the Ohio River so they could evade Illinois's gaming laws by technically being in Kentucky.

Always sounded like hogwash to me.

Actually, it's sorta the other way around. When that riverboat first opened, Kentucky's attorney general (I have forgotten his name, as his political career never went any farther) threatened the boat operators if the boat strayed into Kentucky waters. He said, "We don't allow gambling in Kentucky."

Guess he never went to Churchill Downs or Keeneland.

That makes more sense. I looked at the area on Google Maps and it looks like the riverboat is docked close enough to shore that it doesn't cross the state line (or at least what Google Maps has marked as the state line). I'm guessing that my source just got the situation backwards.

[ilpt4u]

I've always heard that the Harrah's Casino in Metropolis was on a boat in the Ohio River so they could evade Illinois's gaming laws by technically being in Kentucky.

FYI the Gambling Floor @ Harrah's Metropolis is now on a land-based structure attached to the Hotel. The old on-river "boat" structure now simply houses the Buffet

IL has changed its gambling laws, allowing land-based gaming floors, I believe. At one point, the casinos actually had to be on boats, and the boats had to leave port every so often.

Of the IL casinos I've been to, only Par-A-Dice in East Peoria is actually still on a boat (in that case, on the IL River)

[inkyatari]

There is an Illinois river in both Illinois and Oregon.