I-240 extension in Oklahoma City

[ethanhopkin14]

The only real roadblock I could see is how janky of an alignment this extension would follow.

I-69 says hi

I-74 east of Cincinnati also says hi 

I-14 says hi

[mrsman]

https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/newsroom/2021/august/august-commission-meeting-wrap-up--updated-five-year-plan-for-ma.html

This afternoon, ODOT issued a press release detailing actions taken at their meeting Monday. The relevant portion of the release to this thread follows:

The I-240 designation is one step closer to being added to 75 miles of highways and turnpikes in the Oklahoma City metro area thanks to action by the Oklahoma Transportation Commission at its Monday, Aug. 2 meeting. As part of an item to add highway numbers to several Oklahoma turnpikes, the commission approved designation of the entire John Kilpatrick Turnpike and Kickapoo Turnpike along with segments of SH-152/Airport Rd., I-44 and I-40 as part of I-240, creating a continuous loop around the city.

I would still think that extending the I-240 designation as ODOT proposes would require Congressional approval since interstate highways are generally not allowed to be tolled, save for the turnpikes that existed when the interstate highway system was created that were designated as interstates but allowed to continue collecting tolls.

As long as the turnpikes weren't built with federal funds they should be okay to be designated as interstates. The only real roadblock I could see is how janky of an alignment this extension would follow. I think if ODOT wanted it to just cover the Kilpatrick and end at the 35/44 split there would be no objections. Adding the Kickapoo just seems too convoluted, and I agree with Scott that the Kickapoo should be a part of a different route extending down to Norman.

Generally agree with all of the above.  The 240 designation is appropriate as a loop from 35/44 counterclockwise around the western and southern parts of town to end at the current 240/40.  A routing such as this would mean that 240 would have its own corridor, with only a small bit of multiplexing I-44 near the airport.  No need for the multiplex with 40 in the southeast or the very long multiplex with 44 in the northeast. 

I also agree that the Kickapoo is too far away to be considered part of the same 240 beltway.  It needs its own unique number.

To the extent that it would be problematic to have interstate designation on the toll sections, perhaps a state route that is numbered the same as the interstate would work.  So OK-240 for the toll parts and I-240 for the free parts.

THe use of control cities would be very helpful for guiding traffic around the area. Clockwise from 40, I'd prefer Amarillo/Dallas as a hint that the route can be used as a bypass of 40, as well as a connector to I-35 south.  Then, continuing along use Amarillo or Airport/Amarillo around the southside until hitting I-40 and then the control should be Witchita/Tulsa.  In the other direction, the main control from 35/44 should be Amarillo until hitting I-40, then the control should be Fort Smith/Dallas and then after passing I-35, just Fort Smith. 

[Scott5114]

The problem with using an OK-240 is that OTC has gone to great pains to establish "OK-3xx" = "turnpike" with all of their recent turnpike state highway designations (although everyone is sort of pretending OK-325 doesn't exist, for the moment at least). All of the state highway numbers assigned to turnpikes follow this convention: 301, 312, 344, 351, 364, 375.

But I don't really see how it would be problematic for there to be an interstate designation on a toll road anyway. I-44 is already assigned over three different turnpikes, and US-412 over two of them, so it's not like Oklahomans have an expectation that a non-state-highway will always be free.

[US 89]

The problem with using an OK-240 is that OTC has gone to great pains to establish "OK-3xx" = "turnpike" with all of their recent turnpike state highway designations (although everyone is sort of pretending OK-325 doesn't exist, for the moment at least). All of the state highway numbers assigned to turnpikes follow this convention: 301, 312, 344, 351, 364, 375.

SH 325 is far enough away that nobody in OKC gives a shit about it (or even knows it's there). Which is a shame because it's a great drive.

At this point, why not renumber it to 456 to match the highway it connects to in NM? I'm pretty sure that route is numbered 325 to begin with because the New Mexico side used to be NM 325, but NM realigned their routes at some point to make 325 a loop off 64.

[SkyPesos]

Are Tulsa and St Louis the only city pair that are shown as control cities of each other, and have a same numbered 3 digit state route freeway (in this case, 364)? I'm not sure where the 364 for Tulsa's came from (probably just to match the 3xx for turnpikes pattern Scott mentioned above), but St Louis's 364 is intended as a state route signed like a 3di of I-64.

[skluth]

Are Tulsa and St Louis the only city pair that are shown as control cities of each other, and have a same numbered 3 digit state route freeway (in this case, 364)? I'm not sure where the 364 for Tulsa's came from (probably just to match the 3xx for turnpikes pattern Scott mentioned above), but St Louis's 364 is intended as a state route signed like a 3di of I-64.

OK 364 meets US 64 on the SE side of Tulsa. Don't know if US 64 is the reason for the OK 364 moniker. But I found it interesting.

[Scott5114]

The problem with using an OK-240 is that OTC has gone to great pains to establish "OK-3xx" = "turnpike" with all of their recent turnpike state highway designations (although everyone is sort of pretending OK-325 doesn't exist, for the moment at least). All of the state highway numbers assigned to turnpikes follow this convention: 301, 312, 344, 351, 364, 375.

SH 325 is far enough away that nobody in OKC gives a shit about it (or even knows it's there). Which is a shame because it's a great drive.

At this point, why not renumber it to 456 to match the highway it connects to in NM? I'm pretty sure that route is numbered 325 to begin with because the New Mexico side used to be NM 325, but NM realigned their routes at some point to make 325 a loop off 64.

Exactly my thinking on it as well. And yes, it was numbered after NM 325. Before that, it was OK-134. They could bring that number back if for some reason they didn't want it to be OK-456. 456 would be the highest number in the OK system by far; the current highest is 375, and before the turnpikes started getting numbers, it was...325.

Are Tulsa and St Louis the only city pair that are shown as control cities of each other, and have a same numbered 3 digit state route freeway (in this case, 364)? I'm not sure where the 364 for Tulsa's came from (probably just to match the 3xx for turnpikes pattern Scott mentioned above), but St Louis's 364 is intended as a state route signed like a 3di of I-64.

OK 364 meets US 64 on the SE side of Tulsa. Don't know if US 64 is the reason for the OK 364 moniker. But I found it interesting.

All of the 3xx turnpike numbers reference a highway the route intersects. 301 ends at OK-1, 312 ends at US-412, 344 will end at I-44 (when it's built), 351 parallels OK-51 for a while, 375 intersects US-75.

[US 89]

Are Tulsa and St Louis the only city pair that are shown as control cities of each other, and have a same numbered 3 digit state route freeway (in this case, 364)? I'm not sure where the 364 for Tulsa's came from (probably just to match the 3xx for turnpikes pattern Scott mentioned above), but St Louis's 364 is intended as a state route signed like a 3di of I-64.

I hate to burst your bubble, but the eastbound I-44 control city from Tulsa is Joplin.

[Scott5114]

Are Tulsa and St Louis the only city pair that are shown as control cities of each other, and have a same numbered 3 digit state route freeway (in this case, 364)? I'm not sure where the 364 for Tulsa's came from (probably just to match the 3xx for turnpikes pattern Scott mentioned above), but St Louis's 364 is intended as a state route signed like a 3di of I-64.

I hate to burst your bubble, but the eastbound I-44 control city from Tulsa is Joplin.

True, but from the St Louis end, it's Tulsa. (Later, after you leave the St Louis area, Rolla, Springfield, and Joplin start to appear.)

[US 89]

Are Tulsa and St Louis the only city pair that are shown as control cities of each other, and have a same numbered 3 digit state route freeway (in this case, 364)? I'm not sure where the 364 for Tulsa's came from (probably just to match the 3xx for turnpikes pattern Scott mentioned above), but St Louis's 364 is intended as a state route signed like a 3di of I-64.

I hate to burst your bubble, but the eastbound I-44 control city from Tulsa is Joplin.

True, but from the St Louis end, it's Tulsa. (Later, after you leave the St Louis area, Rolla, Springfield, and Joplin start to appear.)

I know that, but he did say "control cities of each other" which I took to mean each city was the main control from the other. Maybe that wasn't what he meant... and now I've started yet another discussion of control cities. Whoops.

[SkyPesos]

Are Tulsa and St Louis the only city pair that are shown as control cities of each other, and have a same numbered 3 digit state route freeway (in this case, 364)? I'm not sure where the 364 for Tulsa's came from (probably just to match the 3xx for turnpikes pattern Scott mentioned above), but St Louis's 364 is intended as a state route signed like a 3di of I-64.

I hate to burst your bubble, but the eastbound I-44 control city from Tulsa is Joplin.

True, but from the St Louis end, it's Tulsa. (Later, after you leave the St Louis area, Rolla, Springfield, and Joplin start to appear.)

I know that, but he did say "control cities of each other" which I took to mean each city was the main control from the other. Maybe that wasn't what he meant... and now I've started yet another discussion of control cities. Whoops.

I thought St Louis was signed in Tulsa somewhere, but I guess not. I didn't know how else to describe two sort of close cities linked by a single 2di with a same numbered 3 digit state route, so I just used control cities.

[Plutonic Panda]

There should St. Louis signed in Tulsa on I-44. Joplin, Springfield, and St. Louis.

[Scott5114]

I think it's sort of silly to sign St Louis as far away as Tulsa. If you think Joplin is too small, use Springfield, which is the third-largest city in MO and more than worthy of control city status.

As I've said in other threads, I suspect the only reason I-44 WB is signed as Tulsa in St Louis is to avoid any confusion between Springfield MO and Springfield IL.

[Plutonic Panda]

all three should be signed, IMO. I don't see why there should only be one city for a control.

[Scott5114]

Message loading, for one thing. Once you get the control cities from the other direction there, you're liable to wind up with a sign reading I-44/Will Rogers Turnpike/Joplin/Springfield/St. Louis/Tulsa/Okla. City/Lawton.

[sprjus4]

^ At major junctions. controls like St. Louis should be used, IMO.

Tulsa is used in St. Louis.

[bugo]

I thought St Louis was signed in Tulsa somewhere, but I guess not. I didn't know how else to describe two sort of close cities linked by a single 2di with a same numbered 3 digit state route, so I just used control cities.

There are no signs in Tulsa that use St Louis as a control city that I am aware of.

[kphoger]

I think it's sort of silly to sign St Louis as far away as Tulsa. If you think Joplin is too small, use Springfield, which is the third-largest city in MO and more than worthy of control city status.

As I've said in other threads, I suspect the only reason I-44 WB is signed as Tulsa in St Louis is to avoid any confusion between Springfield MO and Springfield IL.

Joplin should be used in both cities.

[sprjus4]

Joplin = 50,000 population
St. Louis metro population = 3 million

The cities are only 400 miles apart.

I think those numbers speak for themselves. Clearly Missouri had it right here.

[SkyPesos]

Did I just start another control cities debate from simply mentioning the two words? 

[JayhawkCO]

Joplin = 50,000 population
St. Louis metro population = 3 million

The cities are only 400 miles apart.

I think those numbers speak for themselves. Clearly Missouri had it right here.

Joplin MSA is 180,000.  Seems reasonable enough to me.

Chris

[sprjus4]

Still far less significant and notable as St. Louis. Particularly for a long distance traveler.

List Joplin and Springfield as secondary cities, but St. Louis and Tulsa should be the primary control city, and in areas where only one fits, just the primary should be shown.

[Scott5114]

Springfield is the third-largest city in Missouri and has an MSA of 470,000. Skipping over it or using it as a secondary control (which isn't something Oklahoma actually does for the most part) would be silly.

[kphoger]

The reasons I'd go with Joplin over Springfield are that [1] it's well known in logistics (a lot of trucking companies have operations there), [2] it's at the junction of US-71/I-49 (jumping-off point for NB traffic to KC, SB traffic to NWA), [3] it cannot be confused with the capital of Illinois, and [4] it's still the fifth-largest town in Missouri that isn't a suburb of either KC or Saint Louis.

[Scott5114]

Right, I wasn't trying to imply skipping Joplin was necessarily a good idea, but if you're going to skip Joplin, skipping Springfield too is just silliness. The bad thing about skipping Joplin is also that Springfield could be confused with Springdale (AR), which might be confusing once Tulsa has an interstate link to that city.

On the other hand, several times I've been on a road trip in southwest MO and texted someone back home in OK that I was passing through Joplin, only to get a response of "where is that?" so maybe Joplin isn't as well known as roadgeeks think it is.