Boston Traffic Reporter/Blogger Defends Use of '128' moniker

[deathtopumpkins]

How many T (MBTA)-users still refer to the Downtown Crossing (Red & Orange Line stations), Government Center (Blue & Green Line stations) & Aquarium (Blue Line) Stations as Washington (for Washington St.), Scollay Square (in this case, the name was added in smaller print underneath most Government Center signs about a decade later) and Atlantic (for Atlantic Ave., prior to the New England Aquarium being built)?

Zero. No one I know even knows those stations used to be called by those names, unless I point it out as random trivia.

if you're looking for trivia, go to Government Center and gaze upon the old tiled "Scollay Under" sign.  (there's also one at Broadway, which has not been renamed.)

Oh there's plenty of old tile signs that still remain. After renovating Arlington on the Green Line a few years ago they left a window in the modern tile showing the original tile behind it, and during various construction projects and station changes, old signs have been uncovered at DTX, Chinatown (formerly Essex), and others.

[agentsteel53]

are there any NO SPITTING signs left?  I remember there being a ~100 year old porcelain one at North Station until about 2002.

[deathtopumpkins]

are there any NO SPITTING signs left?  I remember there being a ~100 year old porcelain one at North Station until about 2002.

I don't recall any off the top of my head, though I know I've seen random ones around the city and didn't pay much attention to them.

The one in North Station is surely gone after the North Station Superstation construction. Completely different place.

[Pete from Boston]

How many people (and I'm aware we have a separate thread on the subject) still refer to the stretch of I-84 between I-384 and I-90 in MA & CT as I-86 or even Route 15?

Businesses on the parallel service roads use "Route 15" as their address.

[SidS1045]

you mean to say it's a bypass of MA-28???

Although MassDPW may not have intended it that way originally, the fact is that 28 goes through Boston and 128 bypasses it.

[roadman]

How many T (MBTA)-users still refer to the Downtown Crossing (Red & Orange Line stations), Government Center (Blue & Green Line stations) & Aquarium (Blue Line) Stations as Washington (for Washington St.), Scollay Square (in this case, the name was added in smaller print underneath most Government Center signs about a decade later) and Atlantic (for Atlantic Ave., prior to the New England Aquarium being built)?

Zero. No one I know even knows those stations used to be called by those names, unless I point it out as random trivia.

if you're looking for trivia, go to Government Center and gaze upon the old tiled "Scollay Under" sign.  (there's also one at Broadway, which has not been renamed.)

Oh there's plenty of old tile signs that still remain. After renovating Arlington on the Green Line a few years ago they left a window in the modern tile showing the original tile behind it, and during various construction projects and station changes, old signs have been uncovered at DTX, Chinatown (formerly Essex), and others.

Now if only they would re-install the original tile signs at Symphony - which were replaced with blank white tile in the early 1980s.

[PHLBOS]

you mean to say it's a bypass of MA-28???

Although MassDPW may not have intended it that way originally, the fact is that 28 goes through Boston and 128 bypasses it.

Side bar: Isn't MA 28 the longest state route mileagewise in Massachusetts?

How many people (and I'm aware we have a separate thread on the subject) still refer to the stretch of I-84 between I-384 and I-90 in MA & CT as I-86 or even Route 15?

Businesses on the parallel service roads use "Route 15" as their address.

Are those businesses located in MA or CT ?  In Sturbridge, I remember getting a receipt from a gas station several years back (I think it was the Mobil located near Exit 1) that listed Route 15 as the address.

Nonetheless, while such businesses list the old route number in their address; unlike the Woburn car dealerships and the Amtrak/MBTA train station; they (very wisely IMHO) don't include the route number in their actual corporate name.

[deathtopumpkins]

So, this got me wondering. What would you name the Route 128 station instead then, if it were a poor choice of name?

On board, Amtrak conductors announce it as "Route 128 / University Park Station - Canton, Westwood, Dedham area!" but Canton-Westwood-Dedham sounds a bit too cumbersome.



And yes, MA 28 is the longest state route in Massachusetts, though IMHO it should be at least 2 different routes, as no one in their right mind would drive it all the way from the New Hampshire border to Eastham in one go (or even from Boston to Eastham).

[PHLBOS]

So, this got me wondering. What would you name the Route 128 station instead then, if it were a poor choice of name?

On board, Amtrak conductors announce it as "Route 128 / University Park Station - Canton, Westwood, Dedham area!" but Canton-Westwood-Dedham sounds a bit too cumbersome.

To a degree, you just answered your own question with the above-conductor quote.  Why not just simply call it University Park Station?  Especially since the newer Exit 13 BGS' along I-95 have this as a destination listing IIRC.

If the conductors are already including it in their station announcements anyway; they could simply say, "University Park Station - Canton, Westwood, Dedham area!" without too much trouble.   

[spooky]

So, this got me wondering. What would you name the Route 128 station instead then, if it were a poor choice of name?

On board, Amtrak conductors announce it as "Route 128 / University Park Station - Canton, Westwood, Dedham area!" but Canton-Westwood-Dedham sounds a bit too cumbersome.

A mixed-use development called University Station is going to be built right across the street.

[deathtopumpkins]

So, this got me wondering. What would you name the Route 128 station instead then, if it were a poor choice of name?

On board, Amtrak conductors announce it as "Route 128 / University Park Station - Canton, Westwood, Dedham area!" but Canton-Westwood-Dedham sounds a bit too cumbersome.

To a degree, you just answered your own question with the above-conductor quote.  Why not just simply call it University Park Station?  Especially since the newer Exit 13 BGS' along I-95 have this as a destination listing IIRC.

If the conductors are already including it in their station announcements anyway; they could simply say, "University Park Station - Canton, Westwood, Dedham area!" without too much trouble.

Because no one knows what the heck University Park is. Hell, even I don't, except that there's some kind of development.

Everyone in the Boston area knows what Route 128 is. No one (or maybe a few people) know what University Park is. Therefore it makes sense to call it Route 128, not University Park.

Also, the station signs I believe all just say "Route 128", and it appears in timetables as "Route 128". The only mention of University Park was on board by the conductor.

[Pete from Boston]

What university is in Dedham?

[PHLBOS]

So, this got me wondering. What would you name the Route 128 station instead then, if it were a poor choice of name?

On board, Amtrak conductors announce it as "Route 128 / University Park Station - Canton, Westwood, Dedham area!" but Canton-Westwood-Dedham sounds a bit too cumbersome.

To a degree, you just answered your own question with the above-conductor quote.  Why not just simply call it University Park Station?  Especially since the newer Exit 13 BGS' along I-95 have this as a destination listing IIRC.

If the conductors are already including it in their station announcements anyway; they could simply say, "University Park Station - Canton, Westwood, Dedham area!" without too much trouble.

Because no one knows what the heck University Park is. Hell, even I don't, except that there's some kind of development.

Everyone in the Boston area knows what Route 128 is. No one (or maybe a few people) know what University Park is. Therefore it makes sense to call it Route 128, not University Park.

Also, the station signs I believe all just say "Route 128", and it appears in timetables as "Route 128". The only mention of University Park was on board by the conductor.

First of all and with all due respect, I only mentioned University Park as a suggestion because of your quote quoting what conductor stated; he must've stated it for a reason.  The reason being that there's an industrial/office park in the vicinity named as such off of University Ave.  If someone wants to rename it to something else, I personally don't care.

Second, I have given you (& others) several examples of where transit stations and roads underwent a name change (for better/for worse) and the masses ultimately adapted to the name change.  Why would renaming the Route 128 Station (regardless of the reason) be any different? 

If (& as a hypothetical example) former-Senator (& current Secretary of State) John Kerry threw down enough money towards Amtrak/MBTA to have the station named after him (the John Kerry Station); trust me, the signs and timetables would change rather quickly and people would adapt.  Just like what happened with the previously- mentioned T-station name changes and SEPTA's renaming its Pattison Station to AT&T Station in South Philly.  I only mention the latter because AT&T indeed threw SEPTA some major bucks to have it done. 

Third, I am more than well aware that the signs on the station itself and the MBTA & Amtrak timetables all state Route 128 as the station name.  If one scrolls through the older posts in this thread, I was the one that originally brought up the fact that there's indeed a station bearing Route 128 in its name.

Fourth, after doing some checking, I stand corrected with regards to the Exit 13 BGS message.  Its contents list University Ave. & MBTA/Amtrak Station.  Interestingly, there's no mention of it being the Route 128 station.  Gee, I wonder why?   

What university is in Dedham?

See above, it's named after University Avenue.  According to Bing Maps, the only institutions for learning located along University Ave. (in Westwood, not Dedham BTW) are the New England Sports Academy and the Peterson School.

[roadman]

Historical note - When Amtrak wanted MassHighway to change the BGSes at University Avenue in the mid-1990s to include a reference to the train station, MassHighway's original plan was to revise the then-brand new signs (installed in 1995 under the Canton to Wellesley panels-only project) to include Amtrak and MBTA logos.

The story goes (and I've heard this from more than one source) that the FHWA regional office in Cambridge rejected the proposal, claiming that the MUTCD forbade the placement of transit logos on overhead guide signs.  The compromise was the current "Amtrak/MBTA Station" text on the current signs.

Apparently, the FHWA person in Cambridge has never traveled the Beltway outside of DC, where transit station logos on overhead BGSes are quite common - the New Carrollton exit for one comes to mind.

[deathtopumpkins]

So, this got me wondering. What would you name the Route 128 station instead then, if it were a poor choice of name?

On board, Amtrak conductors announce it as "Route 128 / University Park Station - Canton, Westwood, Dedham area!" but Canton-Westwood-Dedham sounds a bit too cumbersome.

To a degree, you just answered your own question with the above-conductor quote.  Why not just simply call it University Park Station?  Especially since the newer Exit 13 BGS' along I-95 have this as a destination listing IIRC.

If the conductors are already including it in their station announcements anyway; they could simply say, "University Park Station - Canton, Westwood, Dedham area!" without too much trouble.

Because no one knows what the heck University Park is. Hell, even I don't, except that there's some kind of development.

Everyone in the Boston area knows what Route 128 is. No one (or maybe a few people) know what University Park is. Therefore it makes sense to call it Route 128, not University Park.

Also, the station signs I believe all just say "Route 128", and it appears in timetables as "Route 128". The only mention of University Park was on board by the conductor.

First of all and with all due respect, I only mentioned University Park as a suggestion because of your quote quoting what conductor stated; he must've stated it for a reason.  The reason being that there's an industrial/office park in the vicinity named as such off of University Ave.  If someone wants to rename it to something else, I personally don't care.

Second, I have given you (& others) several examples of where transit stations and roads underwent a name change (for better/for worse) and the masses ultimately adapted to the name change.  Why would renaming the Route 128 Station (regardless of the reason) be any different? 

I'm not saying people wouldn't adapt to the change eventually. Just that at this point in time Route 128 is the best name for the station, a point you seem to have contested previously.

If (& as a hypothetical example) former-Senator (& current Secretary of State) John Kerry threw down enough money towards Amtrak/MBTA to have the station named after him (the John Kerry Station); trust me, the signs and timetables would change rather quickly and people would adapt.  Just like what happened with the previously- mentioned T-station name changes and SEPTA's renaming its Pattison Station to AT&T Station in South Philly.  I only mention the latter because AT&T indeed threw SEPTA some major bucks to have it done.

Oh of course they would. I don't think it would be that easy though, considering that Route 128 is FAR more ingrained in Boston culture than any of those other examples. It would take a long time for people to stop calling it Route 128 station.

Third, I am more than well aware that the signs on the station itself and the MBTA & Amtrak timetables all state Route 128 as the station name.  If one scrolls through the older posts in this thread, I was the one that originally brought up the fact that there's indeed a station bearing Route 128 in its name.

Yes, I'm not disagreeing there. I was just stating that the signs don't say "Route 128 - University Park - Canton/Dedham/Westwood". Almost everything  JUST says "Route 128".

Fourth, after doing some checking, I stand corrected with regards to the Exit 13 BGS message.  Its contents list University Ave. & MBTA/Amtrak Station.  Interestingly, there's no mention of it being the Route 128 station.  Gee, I wonder why?   

Probably because it would be redundant for it to, considering you're ON Route 128.

Historical note - When Amtrak wanted MassHighway to change the BGSes at University Avenue in the mid-1990s to include a reference to the train station, MassHighway's original plan was to revise the then-brand new signs (installed in 1995 under the Canton to Wellesley panels-only project) to include Amtrak and MBTA logos.

The story goes (and I've heard this from more than one source) that the FHWA regional office in Cambridge rejected the proposal, claiming that the MUTCD forbade the placement of transit logos on overhead guide signs.  The compromise was the current "Amtrak/MBTA Station" text on the current signs.

Apparently, the FHWA person in Cambridge has never traveled the Beltway outside of DC, where transit station logos on overhead BGSes are quite common - the New Carrollton exit for one comes to mind.

Or any of the exits along 495, MA 2, I-93, etc. The Lowell and Lawrence commuter rail stations both have large blue signs up on 495 with the T logo and the name of the station. I-93 also has similar signs for the Anderson/Woburn station (these are even paired with a VMS that displays the next train departure), and MA 2 has them for several stations on the Fitchburg Line. Many of these logos are also, as a side note, horribly bad. One that I believe is on MA 2 westbound even has the T logo being white-on-black.

[PHLBOS]

Historical note - When Amtrak wanted MassHighway to change the BGSes at University Avenue in the mid-1990s to include a reference to the train station, MassHighway's original plan was to revise the then-brand new signs (installed in 1995 under the Canton to Wellesley panels-only project) to include Amtrak and MBTA logos.

The story goes (and I've heard this from more than one source) that the FHWA regional office in Cambridge rejected the proposal, claiming that the MUTCD forbade the placement of transit logos on overhead guide signs.  The compromise was the current "Amtrak/MBTA Station" text on the current signs.

Apparently, the FHWA person in Cambridge has never traveled the Beltway outside of DC, where transit station logos on overhead BGSes are quite common - the New Carrollton exit for one comes to mind.

Or any of the exits along 495, MA 2, I-93, etc. The Lowell and Lawrence commuter rail stations both have large blue signs up on 495 with the T logo and the name of the station. I-93 also has similar signs for the Anderson/Woburn station (these are even paired with a VMS that displays the next train departure), and MA 2 has them for several stations on the Fitchburg Line. Many of these logos are also, as a side note, horribly bad. One that I believe is on MA 2 westbound even has the T logo being white-on-black.

An example closer to the 128 station (& older), the BGS' along MA 3 (near I-93) in Braintree sport a T logo shield (for the Red Line's Quincy Adams Station) as well and these were erected in the 1980s.




In Philly, near 30th St. Station; the overhead BGS's off I-76 & 676 sport both Amtrak and SEPTA logo shields but oddly no there are no PA 3 shields (either on the BGS' or separately) even though PA 3 runs right by 30th St. Station... but that's another topic for another thread.

[roadman]

FHWA's objections to MassHighway were regarding the use of transit logos on overhead signs, not ground-mounts.  Every location deathtopumpkins mentions is a ground-mounted sign.

However, as PHILBOS's above post illustrates, the overhead signs originally installed on MA 3 in Braintree in the early 1980s for Burgin Parkway and the Quincy Adams MBTA station included the T logo.  Most of these signs were replaced (with 'MBTA Station' instead of the T logo) as part of the 2006 MA 3 Braintree to Plymouth sign replacement contract, with the signs approaching the Quincy Adams station/garage having been replaced as part of the 2008 flyover construction project.  The sole exception is the sign on I-93 NB at the Braintree split to MA 3, which is scheduled to be replaced as part of the current I-93 Randolph to Boston sign replacement contract.

[deathtopumpkins]

Braintree station also has some overhead signs with T logos: http://goo.gl/maps/TBQkn

You are correct though that the majority of signs with T logos are ground-mounted, rather than overhead, but IMHO there's not really a difference.

[roadman]

Braintree station also has some overhead signs with T logos: http://goo.gl/maps/TBQkn

You are correct though that the majority of signs with T logos are ground-mounted, rather than overhead, but IMHO there's not really a difference.

I fully agree.  And, try as I might, I can't find anything in any recent (1978 or newer) MUTCD to back the FHWA claim about not allowing transit logos on overhead guide signs.

As for the signs at Braintree Station, I believe those signs were installed by the MBTA, and not MassHighway/MassDOT.

[PHLBOS]

You are correct though that the majority of signs with T logos are ground-mounted, rather than overhead, but IMHO there's not really a difference.

Agreed.  IMHO, the FHWA 'official' from Cambridge (why am I not surprised by this coming from Cambridge?) is all wet about prohibition of General Information (MUTCD) shields for transit facilities on overhead BGS'.  All overhead BGS' leading to Logan Airport from MA 1A, I-90 & I-93 all feature the I-5 (MUTCD, not the Interstate) shields next ot the route shields.

[spooky]

As for the signs at Braintree Station, I believe those signs were installed by the MBTA, and not MassHighway/MassDOT.

I would also assume those signs date back to the 1980s when the station opened, based on their current condition.
Post Merge: May 30, 2013, 01:26:32 PM

FHWA's objections to MassHighway were regarding the use of transit logos on overhead signs, not ground-mounts.  Every location deathtopumpkins mentions is a ground-mounted sign.

However, as PHILBOS's above post illustrates, the overhead signs originally installed on MA 3 in Braintree in the early 1980s for Burgin Parkway and the Quincy Adams MBTA station included the T logo.  Most of these signs were replaced (with 'MBTA Station' instead of the T logo) as part of the 2006 MA 3 Braintree to Plymouth sign replacement contract, with the signs approaching the Quincy Adams station/garage having been replaced as part of the 2008 flyover construction project.  The sole exception is the sign on I-93 NB at the Braintree split to MA 3, which is scheduled to be replaced as part of the current I-93 Randolph to Boston sign replacement contract.

The newer signs also provide a horizontal line between Quincy Center and MBTA Station. The old signs may be potentially confusing since there is also a Quincy Center T station, but the signs are intending to direct you to the Quincy Adams station. To be fair, if you somehow miss Quincy Adams, you'll find Quincy Center just a little ways up the Burgin Parkway.


Post Merge: May 30, 2013, 01:26:28 PM

I'm not saying people wouldn't adapt to the change eventually. Just that at this point in time Route 128 is the best name for the station, a point you seem to have contested previously.

Not to jump in someone else's debate, but I disagree that Route 128 is the best name for the station.

Route 128 as an identifier only tells you that it is somewhere between Gloucester and Canton (or Braintree, if you use the local belief system). University Park is not much better as a name, since there is nothing identifying the nearby industrial park as 'University Park'. I do believe the platform signs say both 'Route 128 Station' and 'University Park Station', which indicates to me that someone was thinking about what else to call this station.

What about 'Westwood/Dedham' as a station name? Too much potential confusion with the 'Dedham Corporate Center' station on the Franklin line?

[PHLBOS]

What about 'Westwood/Dedham' as a station name? Too much potential confusion with the 'Dedham Corporate Center' station on the Franklin line?

I'm not 100% sure on this (I'm using a remote computer so I can't jump from website-to-website too quickly due to speed issues) but isn't there either a Dedham and/or Westwood station already along the MBTA Commuter Rail System one or two stops away?

That would be one reason not to use either of those town names for that station unless the station name either has a prefix or suffix (TBD) attached to the name of the town.

[spooky]

What about 'Westwood/Dedham' as a station name? Too much potential confusion with the 'Dedham Corporate Center' station on the Franklin line?

I'm not 100% sure on this (I'm using a remote computer so I can't jump from website-to-website too quickly due to speed issues) but isn't there either a Dedham and/or Westwood station already along the MBTA Commuter Rail System one or two stops away?

That would be one reason not to use either of those town names for that station unless the station name either has a prefix or suffix (TBD) attached to the name of the town.

Other stops in Dedham and Westwood are on the Franklin line - Endicott and Dedham Corporate Center in Dedham, Islington in Readville.

Route 128 is on the Providence/Stoughton line (and Amtrak's Northeast Corridor). It goes through but does not stop at Readville to the north, which is in Boston but on the Dedham line. The next station to the south is Canton Junction in Canton.

[deathtopumpkins]

There's a Dedham Corporate Center, a Canton Junction, and a Canton Center station. No Westwood though.

I don't think a town name would be appropriate though since the station's not really IN any of these towns. It's pretty much just tucked into a random corner at the back of an industrial park with its own exit from Route 128.

[mtantillo]

Braintree station also has some overhead signs with T logos: http://goo.gl/maps/TBQkn

You are correct though that the majority of signs with T logos are ground-mounted, rather than overhead, but IMHO there's not really a difference.

I fully agree.  And, try as I might, I can't find anything in any recent (1978 or newer) MUTCD to back the FHWA claim about not allowing transit logos on overhead guide signs.

As for the signs at Braintree Station, I believe those signs were installed by the MBTA, and not MassHighway/MassDOT.

That is a bogus claim.  The transit logo would be considered a "Pictograph", which is a symbol that represents a government sponsored agency or destination.  MBTA is under public ownership, last I checked.  Now if they wanted the Patriots logo at the Foxboro exit off of I-95, that would be different (and FHWA made Maryland and DC remove all of the "curly W" Washington Nationals logos from their signs.