US 69 Muskogee Bypass

[US71]

https://muskogeenow.com/exclusive-state-plans-to-move-us-69-turn-it-into-interstate-like-system-running-around-muskogee

Proposal to reroute US 69 around Muskogee.

[hbelkins]

I've only been through there twice, but I don't remember it as being excessively congested. It seemed to me to be a typical four-lane bypass around a downtown area that has since become built-up with businesses.

[txstateends]

I didn't know US 69 in OK was the deadliest (according to the article).  Sad that OK isn't in a better financial condition.  I-45 going into OK can't happen soon enough.

[Scott5114]

I've only been through there twice, but I don't remember it as being excessively congested. It seemed to me to be a typical four-lane bypass around a downtown area that has since become built-up with businesses.

This is an accurate assessment, but it's also wedged in between a lengthy freeway segment and a fairly long bit of expressway. It can be a slog when there are a lot of trucks on the road, which is frequent.

[sparker]

ODOT actually plans something along US 69, and the Muskogee mayor opposes it; sounds like every other controversy involving US 69 -- except for the fact that ODOT Actually Planned Something! (at least along this particular highway).  It seems like more than a few folks located along US 69 are emulating ostriches; with their sensory organs effectively buried, the reality that this corridor is the most heavily-trafficked non-Interstate corridor in the state -- particularly in regard to heavy trucks -- seems to have simultaneously lulled them into a pleasant dream (where money blithely flows from the pocketbooks of road users) devoid of downsides (see the prededing safety synopsis).  What the folks in Muskogee need to do -- if this plan looks like it will become reality -- is to convince ODOT to forego the short-term savings of decommissioning the existing route, make it a REAL business loop, and publicize the hell out of it as "hotel/convention central" (also -- I'd make sure one of the local tribes snags some of the land adjacent to the current alignment for a big old casino complex, and let TV ads do the rest). 

Even though ODOT can't seem to afford much in the way of road upgrades -- particularly in areas that aren't OKC and Tulsa -- they seem to be giving notice that when & if times are more amenable, there are some longstanding issues that need resolution, and removing through-put commercial traffic from what used to be a bypass but now is just another local business "drag" within an urbanized regional center is one of those priorities.  At least they're looking ahead; we can only hope that the funding situation doesn't remain bleak for the foreseeable future!       

[US71]

ODOT actually plans something along US 69, and the Muskogee mayor opposes it; sounds like every other controversy involving US 69 -- except for the fact that ODOT Actually Planned Something! (at least along this particular highway).  It seems like more than a few folks located along US 69 are emulating ostriches; with their sensory organs effectively buried, the reality that this corridor is the most heavily-trafficked non-Interstate corridor in the state -- particularly in regard to heavy trucks -- seems to have simultaneously lulled them into a pleasant dream (where money blithely flows from the pocketbooks of road users) devoid of downsides (see the prededing safety synopsis).  What the folks in Muskogee need to do -- if this plan looks like it will become reality -- is to convince ODOT to forego the short-term savings of decommissioning the existing route, make it a REAL business loop, and publicize the hell out of it as "hotel/convention central" (also -- I'd make sure one of the local tribes snags some of the land adjacent to the current alignment for a big old casino complex, and let TV ads do the rest). 

Even though ODOT can't seem to afford much in the way of road upgrades -- particularly in areas that aren't OKC and Tulsa -- they seem to be giving notice that when & if times are more amenable, there are some longstanding issues that need resolution, and removing through-put commercial traffic from what used to be a bypass but now is just another local business "drag" within an urbanized regional center is one of those priorities.  At least they're looking ahead; we can only hope that the funding situation doesn't remain bleak for the foreseeable future!       

The concern seems to be for commercial interests along current 69. QT just built a new store at 69 and 62 East a couple years ago, plus there are several newer hotels.

Muskogee will become like every other bypassed town: money moves to the bypass, the old businesses rot.

[sparker]

ODOT actually plans something along US 69, and the Muskogee mayor opposes it; sounds like every other controversy involving US 69 -- except for the fact that ODOT Actually Planned Something! (at least along this particular highway).  It seems like more than a few folks located along US 69 are emulating ostriches; with their sensory organs effectively buried, the reality that this corridor is the most heavily-trafficked non-Interstate corridor in the state -- particularly in regard to heavy trucks -- seems to have simultaneously lulled them into a pleasant dream (where money blithely flows from the pocketbooks of road users) devoid of downsides (see the prededing safety synopsis).  What the folks in Muskogee need to do -- if this plan looks like it will become reality -- is to convince ODOT to forego the short-term savings of decommissioning the existing route, make it a REAL business loop, and publicize the hell out of it as "hotel/convention central" (also -- I'd make sure one of the local tribes snags some of the land adjacent to the current alignment for a big old casino complex, and let TV ads do the rest). 

Even though ODOT can't seem to afford much in the way of road upgrades -- particularly in areas that aren't OKC and Tulsa -- they seem to be giving notice that when & if times are more amenable, there are some longstanding issues that need resolution, and removing through-put commercial traffic from what used to be a bypass but now is just another local business "drag" within an urbanized regional center is one of those priorities.  At least they're looking ahead; we can only hope that the funding situation doesn't remain bleak for the foreseeable future!       

The concern seems to be for commercial interests along current 69. QT just built a new store at 69 and 62 East a couple years ago, plus there are several newer hotels.

Muskogee will become like every other bypassed town: money moves to the bypass, the old businesses rot.

I'm a bit less cynical -- this project is likely far enough down the line for some degree of adjustment on the part of the businesses involved.  I'm just surprised that a west bypass was proposed; I'd always thought that something involving OK 165 and the Muskogee Turnpike would be a consensus choice. 

However, it's likely that this proposal will end up on the backlog pile of ODOT unfunded projects.  We'll just have to see how things stack up if and when the state's financial state improves and stabilizes -- and whether or not a building spree ensues.  IMHO, just about everyone along US 69 is probably safe for at least the next two decades.

[rte66man]

Even though ODOT can't seem to afford much in the way of road upgrades -- particularly in areas that aren't OKC and Tulsa -- they seem to be giving notice that when & if times are more amenable, there are some longstanding issues that need resolution, and removing through-put commercial traffic from what used to be a bypass but now is just another local business "drag" within an urbanized regional center is one of those priorities.  At least they're looking ahead; we can only hope that the funding situation doesn't remain bleak for the foreseeable future!       

from the October 2017 OK Transportation Commission meeting minutes at:
http://www.odot.org/tcomm/minutes17/tc_minutes-201710.pdf

So that brings me to why we're changing our strategy a little bit with this 8-Year Plan. We have to complete some of these corridors. We have been, I'm not going to say just messing around, but we have been hit or miss on some of our corridor projects. I-35 should have been finished long before it was completed; but we have so many needs in the State that we had to address anything and everything. But we're going to focus on corridors..........We have a huge corridor in eastern Oklahoma called US-69; it is a major truck route. The Federal Government has put emphasis on truck and freight corridors, so we have got to attack that corridor. And we've done so with the first project being in Calera, which is south of Durant. As you recall, we got a Fast Lane Grant, which is going to jump start that project. And so we dropped that into the 8-Year Plan and we are focused on that. We have other needs on US-69; with trucking bottlenecks all up and down 69, it has interstate-like traffic on it, so we have to address that.

As you said, at least they are planning on addressing it as long as the money holds out (and the Legislature quits raiding the Transportation Fund to balance the budget).

[bugo]

No road anywhere is a good candidate for a "road diet".

[Scott5114]

Muskogee is a big enough town they'll be okay. They've already got an eastern bypass in the form of SH-165, after all.

[froggie]

No road anywhere is a good candidate for a "road diet".

I would disagree.  Experience has shown that several roadways have operated more efficiently and more safely when dropped from a 4-lane undivided without turn lanes to a 3-lane (one lane each way plus center left turn lane).  This is the most common form of "road diet".   May not specifically apply to existing US 69 through Muskogee, but you seemed to be speaking very generally.

It shouldn't be JUST about capacity.  Operations and safety are also hugely important.

[US71]

No road anywhere is a good candidate for a "road diet".

I would disagree.  Experience has shown that several roadways have operated more efficiently and more safely when dropped from a 4-lane undivided without turn lanes to a 3-lane (one lane each way plus center left turn lane).  This is the most common form of "road diet".   May not specifically apply to existing US 69 through Muskogee, but you seemed to be speaking very generally.

It shouldn't be JUST about capacity.  Operations and safety are also hugely important.

Arkansas likes to convert 4-Lanes into 5-Lanes without widening the road. Ask Bugo about Mena.

[Bobby5280]

Muskogee will become like every other bypassed town: money moves to the bypass, the old businesses rot.

That's not necessarily true. I-44 effectively bypasses much of Lawton. Aside from a casino and a few hotels very little of Lawton's main business district is along I-44. Cache Road is by far the most busy zone in that city.

And then there's other towns in Oklahoma near I-35 that have survived being bypassed: Ardmore, Davis, Paul's Valley, Purcell, Guthrie. There are towns along the Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes that didn't die off or relocate their main streets next to the highway.

[hbelkins]

No road anywhere is a good candidate for a "road diet".

I would disagree.  Experience has shown that several roadways have operated more efficiently and more safely when dropped from a 4-lane undivided without turn lanes to a 3-lane (one lane each way plus center left turn lane).  This is the most common form of "road diet".   May not specifically apply to existing US 69 through Muskogee, but you seemed to be speaking very generally.

It shouldn't be JUST about capacity.  Operations and safety are also hugely important.

Agree, although I think that converting a four-lane undivided to a three-lane with a TWLTL actually adds to capacity because it allows traffic to move more freely. Best instance of a "road diet" I can come up with in my area is US 127 through Harrodsburg. A four-lane bypass was built around the east side of town and the existing route was converted from a four-lane undivided to a three-lane with a TWLTL. It's actually faster to get from one side of town to the other now if you go through downtown. Eliminating the possibility of people trying to turn left out of the inside lane has improved the flow of traffic.

[kphoger]

Muskogee will become like every other bypassed town: money moves to the bypass, the old businesses rot.

That's not necessarily true. I-44 effectively bypasses much of Lawton. Aside from a casino and a few hotels very little of Lawton's main business district is along I-44. Cache Road is by far the most busy zone in that city.

And then there's other towns in Oklahoma near I-35 that have survived being bypassed: Ardmore, Davis, Paul's Valley, Purcell, Guthrie. There are towns along the Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes that didn't die off or relocate their main streets next to the highway.

Indeed, driving by Lawton on the Turnpike, you'd never know you were passing by a city of almost 100k people (except for the speed limit dropping by 20 mph, that is).  Obviously I don't have to tell you, but Fort Still isn't exactly a small reason for Lawton to survive apart from the highway network.  And Guthrie has some reputation as a place to shop.  One thing that stands out to me is that both Ardmore and Pauls Valley have embraced commercial development along the Interstate; both of them are towns I've stopped for gas and/or lunch at but that I've never driven farther into town at.  Not being very familiar with Davis or Purcell, I wonder what has been the key to their survival.  ?

[hbelkins]

Getting back to Muskogee -- since the present US 69 N-S facility is itself a bypass of the original in-town alignment (it would be nice if some OK or nearby poster could dig up a map of the original 69 route through the city center; I don't recall seeing one on this forum -- although I could be mistaken); it could be surmised that the present route drew some level of business away from the original downtown when it was opened (I'm guessing sometime in the '50's or early '60's); an outer bypass might, for better or worse, mimic that action -- particularly if it were not too far afield.  Road-related businesses (motels, etc.) seem to have a certain level of portability to them intrinsic to their business model.

One thing about the proposed route is that it would only have one interchange between its termini, which would limit the opportunities for development. I suspect that anyone who needs food, gas, lodging or other travel-related services would use the old bypass instead of the new one.

[Bobby5280]

Indeed, driving by Lawton on the Turnpike, you'd never know you were passing by a city of almost 100k people (except for the speed limit dropping by 20 mph, that is).  Obviously I don't have to tell you, but Fort Still isn't exactly a small reason for Lawton to survive apart from the highway network.  And Guthrie has some reputation as a place to shop.  One thing that stands out to me is that both Ardmore and Pauls Valley have embraced commercial development along the Interstate; both of them are towns I've stopped for gas and/or lunch at but that I've never driven farther into town at.  Not being very familiar with Davis or Purcell, I wonder what has been the key to their survival.  ?

In Lawton's case, yes Fort Sill is a major employer and retired military make up a significant chunk of the population. Goodyear is another major employer; they have a large factory West of Lawton (in the Cache school district). There are other large employers. The area draws a decent amount of tourism. The business center of Lawton was once in the old downtown area, until parts of that turned into a red light district. That pushed a lot of development onto Cache Road and other streets heading West. The nicest parts of Lawton are out on the West and East sides, well out of view of traffic on I-44. The hotels and casino built over the past 20 years make I-44 look like Lawton has at least some life.

The towns surviving and even doing well near but not on I-35 have things to attract visitors or new residents.

Purcell is close enough to the OKC metro area that some people are buying homes there and commuting. Purcell has been doing things to make its downtown area more inviting. They modified a couple blocks of Main Street to boost parking capacity for shops there. Paul's Valley has a nice looking downtown area. Davis is near Turner Falls and Arbuckle Wilderness.

Stroud used to be a major destination along the Turner Turnpike, until the 5/3/99 tornado wiped out the big outlet mall there. I think towns along a toll road have a bigger challenge of convincing drivers to visit since the toll gates act as a barrier for both entering and leaving the highway. Still, towns along I-44 (on the old route 66 corridor) are still doing okay despite the turnpike.

The towns along US-69 in Oklahoma have to do like those other towns along I-35 and I-44: give travelers a reason to stop. Traffic lights and speed traps is not the way to do it.

[sparker]

Getting back to Muskogee -- since the present US 69 N-S facility is itself a bypass of the original in-town alignment (it would be nice if some OK or nearby poster could dig up a map of the original 69 route through the city center; I don't recall seeing one on this forum -- although I could be mistaken); it could be surmised that the present route drew some level of business away from the original downtown when it was opened (I'm guessing sometime in the '50's or early '60's); an outer bypass might, for better or worse, mimic that action -- particularly if it were not too far afield.  Road-related businesses (motels, etc.) seem to have a certain level of portability to them intrinsic to their business model.

One thing about the proposed route is that it would only have one interchange between its termini, which would limit the opportunities for development. I suspect that anyone who needs food, gas, lodging or other travel-related services would use the old bypass instead of the new one.

If that's the case (referring to the single interchange), if & when the 2nd bypass is constructed, ODOT and/or a collective effort by the businesses along the original (bypass) route would probably benefit from extensive (large & repeated) signage approaching metro Muskogee stating something along the lines of "no service available on (I-45?); please use (US 69, if they're reasonably smart) for gas, food & lodging".  Let's hope ODOT doesn't cheap out and decommission the entire present facility (or at least that part that's not multiplexed) but keeps it active as a viable local server.  And if ODOT never moves US 69 over to the bypass (even if it doesn't become a I-45 extension, it could be "Bypass US 69"), AASHTO can't bitch about its retention on the current route -- which would give travelers a continuous & familiar pathway to the local amenities. 

[US71]

Getting back to Muskogee -- since the present US 69 N-S facility is itself a bypass of the original in-town alignment (it would be nice if some OK or nearby poster could dig up a map of the original 69 route through the city center; I don't recall seeing one on this forum -- although I could be mistaken); it could be surmised that the present route drew some level of business away from the original downtown when it was opened (I'm guessing sometime in the '50's or early '60's); an outer bypass might, for better or worse, mimic that action -- particularly if it were not too far afield.  Road-related businesses (motels, etc.) seem to have a certain level of portability to them intrinsic to their business model.

One thing about the proposed route is that it would only have one interchange between its termini, which would limit the opportunities for development. I suspect that anyone who needs food, gas, lodging or other travel-related services would use the old bypass instead of the new one.

If that's the case (referring to the single interchange), if & when the 2nd bypass is constructed, ODOT and/or a collective effort by the businesses along the original (bypass) route would probably benefit from extensive (large & repeated) signage approaching metro Muskogee stating something along the lines of "no service available on (I-45?); please use (US 69, if they're reasonably smart) for gas, food & lodging".  Let's hope ODOT doesn't cheap out and decommission the entire present facility (or at least that part that's not multiplexed) but keeps it active as a viable local server.  And if ODOT never moves US 69 over to the bypass (even if it doesn't become a I-45 extension, it could be "Bypass US 69"), AASHTO can't bitch about its retention on the current route -- which would give travelers a continuous & familiar pathway to the local amenities. 

The current proposal calls for removal of two miles of US 69 south of Okmulgee Ave (62/64 West) and removing Bus 62 along Okmulgee between (current) US 69 and Main St so I have my doubts about "By-Pass 69"

[bugo]

No road anywhere is a good candidate for a "road diet".

I would disagree.  Experience has shown that several roadways have operated more efficiently and more safely when dropped from a 4-lane undivided without turn lanes to a 3-lane (one lane each way plus center left turn lane).  This is the most common form of "road diet".   May not specifically apply to existing US 69 through Muskogee, but you seemed to be speaking very generally.

It shouldn't be JUST about capacity.  Operations and safety are also hugely important.

Adding a turn lane is different. I'm referring to removing lanes and doing nothing else.

[Scott5114]

Not being very familiar with Davis or Purcell, I wonder what has been the key to their survival.  ?

Purcell is a bedroom community for Oklahoma City and Norman. Going north on I-35 approaching OKC, you see the first big jump in traffic levels at Exit 95. There's a few places to shop in Purcell, but if you need anything not available in town, Norman is a pretty short drive away.

[rte66man]

Not being very familiar with Davis or Purcell, I wonder what has been the key to their survival.  ?

Purcell is a bedroom community for Oklahoma City and Norman.

I agree they are for Norman but I disagree about OKC.  It is impossible to get downtown or points north under an hour during the morning rush, especially if there is a wreck (or the perpetual construction somewhere along 35).  I'm sure there are exceptions, but I doubt anyone has moved to Purcell after already having a job in OKC.  There are too many other, closer options that greatly reduce the drive time.

My brother has lived there the past 6-7 years.  He told me the prison east of Lexington and the Walmart distribution center near Pauls Valley are 2 of the biggest employers of Purcell residents. IMO, the people who work a places such as OU or Riverwind were already living in Purcell before they got those jobs.  Same applies anyone commuting farther north.

[Scott5114]

I don't know about that. My dad commuted from Goldsby (which isn't too much north of Purcell) to OKC for years, having had the job in OKC first. Some people just like McClain County enough that they think it's worth it.

Oklahomans are tolerant of commute distances that would make any other state's residents want to throw up. I knew one woman who commuted from Washington to Ardmore on a daily basis. I thought that was ridiculous, until I learned that there are a decent number of people who work at WinStar Casino, in Thackerville (I-35 exit 1), who live in OKC due to a lack of desirable housing in Thackerville, Marietta, Ardmore, etc.

[Bobby5280]

I know people who work in Lawton yet live in Duncan, commuting back and forth everyday on OK-7. Seems like a long way to drive, but it takes about a half hour each way. Getting across some parts of OKC will take longer.

[rte66man]

I know people who work in Lawton yet live in Duncan, commuting back and forth everyday on OK-7. Seems like a long way to drive, but it takes about a half hour each way. Getting across some parts of OKC will take longer.

That because no one wants to live in Lawton   

I had always heard the reason for that was the cost of housing.  That was 20 or so years ago and may no longer be true.

The 30 minutes or so to get from Duncan to Fort Sill or Goodyear is nothing compared to going from Purcell to anything in OKC from downtown north.  If there is a wreck on OK7, you can divert onto the shoulder without much of a delay as there just sin't that much traffic. If there is a wreck on 35, you are screwed.