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Exit Tabs & Gore Signage

Started by SkyPesos, March 27, 2021, 12:26:48 AM

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ozarkman417

Georgia has a mixture of center and right oriented tabs at the moment, with the newer ones being the right oriented (with a change in font).


SkyPesos

Quote from: KCRoadFan on March 31, 2021, 11:19:53 PM
What are some states that still use centered exit tabs as opposed to right-aligned ones? I remember seeing a lot of exit signs with centered tabs on I-35 in southern Minnesota - I'm not sure if that state still uses them for new installations.
Washington is the most notable one I can think of. Most others switched to right-aligned ones already.

ran4sh

Quote from: ozarkman417 on March 31, 2021, 11:25:25 PM
Georgia has a mixture of center and right oriented tabs at the moment, with the newer ones being the right oriented (with a change in font).

Georgia's centered "tabs" are the full width of the sign. A Georgia BGS from before 2009 looks somewhat different from one since then:

* Old signs had the full-width exit "tab" with the text centered, new signs have the MUTCD-standard right/left-aligned tab
* Old signs had 20-inch Series C or D legend (as opposed to the standard 16-inch E-modified), new signs use E-modified but are still 20-inch height text
* Old signs, in advance of an exit, had the legend "Exit X mile(s)" for both numbered and unnumbered exits, new signs use the standard legend "X mile(s)" omitting the word "Exit" if the exit is numbered.

(And it is still standard in Georgia to have signs on the same overhead gantry be the same height, but there are plenty of newer installations that have not followed that rule, in addition to single sign replacements that don't.)
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

Travel Mapping - Most Traveled: I-40, 20, 10, 5, 95 - Longest Clinched: I-20, 85, 24, 16, NJ Tpk mainline
Champions - UGA FB '21 '22 - Atlanta Braves '95 '21 - Atlanta MLS '18

CtrlAltDel

Quote from: ran4sh on April 01, 2021, 12:00:04 AM
Georgia's centered "tabs" are the full width of the sign. A Georgia BGS from before 2009 looks somewhat different from one since then:

* Old signs had the full-width exit "tab" with the text centered, new signs have the MUTCD-standard right/left-aligned tab
* Old signs had 20-inch Series C or D legend (as opposed to the standard 16-inch E-modified), new signs use E-modified but are still 20-inch height text
* Old signs, in advance of an exit, had the legend "Exit X mile(s)" for both numbered and unnumbered exits, new signs use the standard legend "X mile(s)" omitting the word "Exit" if the exit is numbered.

So, if I'm following correctly, the sign on the left below is in the older style and the one on the right is in the newer?



I have to admit that I'm torn about the older Georgia signs. Part of me has never liked the style, but part of me does. The signs, affixed to a single pole, with a single tab, and narrow writing vaguely remind me of a Roman vexillum.
Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

JoePCool14

I honestly think the new single-pole concept looks bad with the vanilla exit tab and no gantry lighting. The old way it looked much better. Georgia should just switch to standard breakaway posts.

:) Needs more... :sombrero: Not quite... :bigass: Perfect.
JDOT: We make the world a better place to drive.
Travel Mapping | 60+ Clinches | 260+ Traveled | 8000+ Miles Logged

Scott5114

Well, keep in mind–because the example screenshots don't provide much context–that those are the height of a standard gantry. So it's kind of GDOT's way of having an overhead sign on the cheap.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

SkyPesos

I found one of those Georgia style tall post mounted signs in Ohio. It actually didn't look too bad to me without the centered exit tab and lighting.

Speaking of centered exit tabs, here's an Ohio example with the newest design.

Also unrelated to the thread, but I thought diagrammatic BGS signage was discontinued a long time ago. I found a fairly new one in Ohio based on the style of the exit tab. I don't really see the benefit of them over an APL though.

Scott5114

#32
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 04, 2021, 10:45:13 PM
Speaking of centered exit tabs, here's an Ohio example with the newest design.

The rare example where a centered tab actually makes sense–it's not a left or right exit, but a center one!

Quote from: SkyPesos on April 04, 2021, 10:45:13 PM
Also unrelated to the thread, but I thought diagrammatic BGS signage was discontinued a long time ago. I found a fairly new one in Ohio based on the style of the exit tab. I don't really see the benefit of them over an APL though.

It's proposed to be eliminated in the MUTCD 11e (2021?), but it's still in there as of the 2009 edition.

The benefit of them is to give a fuller picture of a complex interchange with left-side ramps, multiple consecutive option-lane ramps, etc. A right-side split with an option lane is simple enough that an APL can do the job just fine.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

interstatefan990

Anyone else ever see an exit tab design like this one?

Multi-lane roundabouts are an abomination to mankind.

SkyPesos

#34
Quote from: interstatefan990 on April 06, 2021, 05:43:26 PM
Anyone else ever see an exit tab design like this one?
An exit tab on the gore sign? That's pretty common in older Missouri installs (like the one you linked). Texas uses them too, not sure about other states. Missouri switched from that to the vertical exit got signs (with the exit number between the 'EXIT' and the arrow), and the standard MUTCD exit gore signs for single or double digit exit numbers. One of the most recent installations of the separate exit number tab  on the gore signs I can think of is on Phase 1 of MO 364 (exits 12-20), in 2003.

ran4sh

Quote from: interstatefan990 on April 06, 2021, 05:43:26 PM
Anyone else ever see an exit tab design like this one?



That's the MUTCD standard for how to add exit numbers to gore signs that don't have them. Although some states use that style as their regular standard instead of the MUTCD design. For example, it was common to see Georgia's exit gore signs in that format if the exit number was 3 or 4 digits/characters (a 4 character exit would be a 3 digit number with A/B).
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

Travel Mapping - Most Traveled: I-40, 20, 10, 5, 95 - Longest Clinched: I-20, 85, 24, 16, NJ Tpk mainline
Champions - UGA FB '21 '22 - Atlanta Braves '95 '21 - Atlanta MLS '18

SkyPesos

For exit gore signs, which layout is generally preferred by people here, the standard horizontal layout or the stacked vertical layout?

JoePCool14

Quote from: SkyPesos on April 06, 2021, 08:46:55 PM
For exit gore signs, which layout is generally preferred by people here, the standard horizontal layout or the stacked vertical layout?

Either layout is fine as long as it's done well. It's good for DOTs to have a decent-looking vertical layout for the times when there's not enough room for the wide version.

Here's what I'd call a decent looking vertical layout, done by a contractor for IDOT. Though they probably could've gone with a standard width one here.
https://goo.gl/maps/Zt4SdzdqfpZq6m6a6

:) Needs more... :sombrero: Not quite... :bigass: Perfect.
JDOT: We make the world a better place to drive.
Travel Mapping | 60+ Clinches | 260+ Traveled | 8000+ Miles Logged

SkyPesos

#38
Quote from: JoePCool14 on April 06, 2021, 10:10:53 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 06, 2021, 08:46:55 PM
For exit gore signs, which layout is generally preferred by people here, the standard horizontal layout or the stacked vertical layout?

Either layout is fine as long as it's done well. It's good for DOTs to have a decent-looking vertical layout for the times when there's not enough room for the wide version.

Here's what I'd call a decent looking vertical layout, done by a contractor for IDOT. Though they probably could've gone with a standard width one here.
https://goo.gl/maps/Zt4SdzdqfpZq6m6a6
Here's one of the vertical ones in Columbus that looks decent, comparable to the Illinois one you posted, at I-270 exit 33. I picked this one specifically because of the jersey barrier exit gore, which because of its width, is when vertical signs are the most useful. Unlike the rest of Ohio, the Columbus area generally uses the vertical style exit gore signs opposed to the box style the rest of the state mainly uses. Also interesting is that for gore signs not on a jersey barrier, a U-shaped pole is used, which I don't see that often outside of Columbus.

Washington also mainly uses vertical exit gore signs for two and more digits, and I like the smaller size of theirs for some reason, especially when compared to Missouri and Minnesota's large sized vertical ones.

Big John

Wisconsin usually has the 2 line normal sized

EXIT
111 /^

But has this undersized sign atop a jersey barrier: https://goo.gl/maps/B9EfazdH8URXoJGf8

SkyPesos

Just changed the thread title now that it looks like we're including gore signage here too.

Quote from: Big John on April 06, 2021, 10:37:22 PM
Wisconsin usually has the 2 line normal sized

EXIT
111 /^

But has this undersized sign atop a jersey barrier: https://goo.gl/maps/B9EfazdH8URXoJGf8
It looks like the shoulders are wide enough to fit '168B-C' in a single line, but if not, they could pull this MoDOT approach by eliminating the dash between the letters  :)

Big John

Quote from: SkyPesos on April 06, 2021, 10:48:36 PM
Just changed the thread title now that it looks like we're including gore signage here too.

Quote from: Big John on April 06, 2021, 10:37:22 PM
Wisconsin usually has the 2 line normal sized

EXIT
111 /^

But has this undersized sign atop a jersey barrier: https://goo.gl/maps/B9EfazdH8URXoJGf8
It looks like the shoulders are wide enough to fit '168B-C' in a single line, but if not, they could pull this MoDOT approach by eliminating the dash between the letters  :)
They need a wider sign pane and there is room for it.

jakeroot

As mentioned before, Washington State uses inset exit tabs with centered legends. As far as I know, we are the only state still using centered exit legends. I'm kind of indifferent on the matter. The signs are very clean, to be sure, but it doesn't always work (APLs, diagrammatic signs). So there's a mix of designs across the state.

My personal favorite was Oregon, which used a nearly-squared exit tab slightly raised above the center of the sign (example here). I still quite like their modern equivalent, which is the same design but justified left/right accordingly, but it's not as pleasing to me at least. Among non-rounded-corner states, it would still be my favorite, even today, with extra points being awarded for the nearly-square design (as opposed to PA with their excessively-round exit tabs).

Among left/right justified exit tabs, probably North Carolina or Florida, as they also used raised exit tabs but they also cut off the excess paneling. New York gets an honorable mention for also aligning the exit tab with the rounding of the main panel, but loses some points for not raising the exit tab.

vdeane

Eh, IMO the raised tabs look sloppy (I assume you mean like this).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

jakeroot

Quote from: vdeane on April 07, 2021, 12:47:14 PM
Eh, IMO the raised tabs look sloppy (I assume you mean like this).

Yeah, exactly. Admittedly, I think it looks better when the sign is a bit wider. But to each their own.

Looking at states with rounded corners (NC, FL, formerly VA) the practice was always to raise the exit tabs. Oregon was unique in using non-rounded signs with raised exit tabs.

machias

I've always been a fan of the 1970s practice of NYSDOT for exit gore signs. The gore sign was two lines, but with the word "exit"  centered over the number, not in the center of the sign. I found the layout less crowded.


SkyPesos

#46
Quote from: jakeroot on April 07, 2021, 01:34:01 PM
Looking at states with rounded corners (NC, FL, formerly VA) the practice was always to raise the exit tabs. Oregon was unique in using non-rounded signs with raised exit tabs.
I'm not sure if you would consider my Minnesota/Missouri/Ohio examples in the op as rounded or not, but they have rounded corners with a smaller radius than the main panel (comparison to Pennsylvania, with exit tabs at same radius as main panel), and are connected to the main panel (you can see a bit of green space on the right side between the rounded corners of the main panel and exit tab).

For me, I prefer that (MN/MO/OH) approach over raising the tabs, as I think it's as part of the BGS as the rest of the sign. Though I also don't really like California's integrated exit tabs either.

Quote from: jakeroot on April 07, 2021, 01:11:23 AM
As mentioned before, Washington State uses inset exit tabs with centered legends. As far as I know, we are the only state still using centered exit legends. I'm kind of indifferent on the matter. The signs are very clean, to be sure, but it doesn't always work (APLs, diagrammatic signs). So there's a mix of designs across the state.
If Washington were to switch to a smaller exit tab for situations like diagrammatic and APL's, I could see them go the Michigan/Wisconsin approach (examples in the op). Similar to the full length ones they use, but smaller in size. Also my second favorite exit tab design.

jakeroot

Quote from: SkyPesos on April 07, 2021, 05:44:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 07, 2021, 01:34:01 PM
Looking at states with rounded corners (NC, FL, formerly VA) the practice was always to raise the exit tabs. Oregon was unique in using non-rounded signs with raised exit tabs.
I'm not sure if you would consider my Minnesota/Missouri/Ohio examples in the op as rounded or not, but they have rounded corners with a smaller radius than the main panel (comparison to Pennsylvania, with exit tabs at same radius as main panel), and are connected to the main panel (you can see a bit of green space on the right side between the rounded corners of the main panel and exit tab).

For me, I prefer that (MN/MO/OH) approach over raising the tabs, as I think it's as part of the BGS as the rest of the sign. Though I also don't really like California's integrated exit tabs either.

When I say rounded, I mean the physical sign had the edges beyond the white border cut off, so the sign was genuinely round. See this sign in Florida for an example, or this sign in North Carolina.

Curiously, in doing research for this post, I realized that Florida does not always raise the exit tabs above the main sign panel, despite using round corners. Most examples of exit signage around MCO Airport, for instance, do not use raised exit tabs, whereas most signs in the Miami area do have raised exit tabs.

machias

Quote from: jakeroot on April 07, 2021, 01:34:01 PM

Looking at states with rounded corners (NC, FL, formerly VA) the practice was always to raise the exit tabs. Oregon was unique in using non-rounded signs with raised exit tabs.

I don't think NY has ever raised the exit tabs and they've had rounded corners since the early 1970s. In fact, NY cuts off the bottom border of the exit panel and when they started doing left or right justified exit tabs, inset them in the width of the radius of the main sign panel.

vdeane

Quote from: machias on April 07, 2021, 07:57:24 PM
I don't think NY has ever raised the exit tabs and they've had rounded corners since the early 1970s.
It's not the standard, but for some reason it seems to happen sometimes with Thruway signs these days.
https://nysroads.com/photos.php?route=i90&state=NY&file=101_8907.JPG
https://nysroads.com/photos.php?route=i90&state=NY&file=101_7761.JPG
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.