Hello!
Sorry for the late announcement, with a new job and exciting new challenges on my personal plate, I needed to hold off on announcing the date while I ensured that I'd actually be able to make this happen. I now know that this will be doable, and it will be doable on May 30, 2015.
I don't have specifics yet, those are to come. Here is what I can say:
1) One day meet on Saturday, May 30.
2) For your own surrounding roadtrips, note that my intent is to base this out of either Golden or Idaho Springs (if you have a preference, let me know). Hotels will be reasonable at that time of year in that area- even if folks wanted to stay in Arvada or Wheat Ridge, there should be a good selection of hotels at a good price.
I'm going to mainly try to focus the meet west of Denver in the mountains, since that's the interesting part of the region that will distinguish it from having a roadmeet in any other random Great Plains city. Definitely we'll take a look at the I-70 Twin Tunnels project http://www.coloradodot.info/projects/i70twintunnels, and definitely we'll visit at least one of the abandoned tunnels on US 6 in the area. Beyond that, I'm looking at a couple different options to take us up into the mountains to see some interesting infrastructure, and I'll announce what that looks like specifically much closer to the date.
Facebook here, RSVP as you can here or there:
https://www.facebook.com/events/624466810998066/?ref=23&source=1&sid_create=1002724979
I am a maybe for now, if I can tac on 2 days off on top of my regular 3 day weekend and if finances and yes I will say this, permission from the Mrs. then I am in! :-)
I am definitely there. I have a few friends to visit in the Denver area, so I will be making a long week or so for the trip.
as finances show I have to put this at 50/50 but I sense the ratio to turn toward the negative. I need to balance out meets and keep them close to home (U.P., Madison for sure).
Currently, I am planning on attending, as I've had this meet on my radar for some time now. I'm hoping to use this as a reason to spending a few extra days to explore Colorado and possibly New Mexico as well.
I'll also throw this out there, but I'd like to explore the idea of finding a decent hotel (or group of nearby hotels) where a bunch of us can stay at, similar to what was done for the St. Louis and (to a lesser extent) NYC meets in 2014.
QuoteI'll also throw this out there, but I'd like to explore the idea of finding a decent hotel (or group of nearby hotels) where a bunch of us can stay at, similar to what was done for the St. Louis and (to a lesser extent) NYC meets in 2014.
Fully agreed. There's a tight cluster of inexpensive hotels at I-70 and Kipling in Wheat Ridge, which is what I'm probably going to advocate
Work confirmed today that they have zero objection to me taking two consecutive weeks off, so there's that potential reason why not eliminated.
The biggest question now is whether I will be stopping in Denver on my way out west or on my way back east. I prefer the latter but scheduling may make the former work better.
One of my nieces will be graduating from college about a week before the meet, so I'll almost certainly putting the meet near the start of my trip out west rather than toward the end as I'd originally planned. Also, I'll have to work out to meander my way home from Denver (probably through southern Colorado and Utah), as well as a route the other way that minimizes travel on roads I've already covered. That will most likely include finishing off stray segments of US 40 in CO, KS, and MO, and perhaps also clinching US 24 or at least the part west of Toledo.
Unless a pile of cash suddenly falls in my lap, there's almost no way I can attend.
Additionally, it's questionable whether I would have the necessary number of vacation days available in order to accommodate a leisurely, county-collecting drive there (it's two days of hard interstate driving) and a speedy trip back.
There was a negative comment on the Facebook page for this meet about the hotels around I-70 and Kipling. I've stayed at the Quality Inn on U.S. 6 at the Simms/Union exit a couple of times, and it's OK. There is also a Baymont off the same parking lot. Further west on 6 there are some higher end hotels (Courtyard) for those willing to spend more.
Since I live two hours south, I will likely just come up for the day.
I am in! :-) Will be going solo since Steph is saving her vacation time for our BIG trip west in July. This Dever meet would be a 5 day weekend for me.
Right now I'm about 95 percent certain that I'll be able to attend. My plan at this point is to bring Sam Scholtens - doing half of the drive out Thursday, the other half Friday, staying at one of the hotels along I-70 Friday and Saturday nights, and then splitting the drive home between Sunday and Monday.
I can't wait!
Stay out of Kansas for hotels - when I drove I-70 out in 2013, I dodged tornadoes in western Kansas. When I stopped in Salina for lunch (for me and the cat) it was crazy humid and hot. The storms blossomed as I got closer to the CO line. everything fizzled out after getting well into Colorado except for some tall cloud that produced nothing.
Quote from: SSOWorld on December 28, 2014, 11:10:10 PM
Stay out of Kansas for hotels - when I drove I-70 out in 2013, I dodged tornadoes in western Kansas. When I stopped in Salina for lunch (for me and the cat) it was crazy humid and hot.
Welcome to my world.
I have booked a hotel in Wichita for the drive out, mainly getting new counties in KS and new interstate mileage on I-35. I did I-70 accross the state back in July 09 on my first "cross country" trip to Albuquerque, NM it was hot, dry and triple digit heat all the way to eastern CO. I will moniter weather closely since it is late May and higher potential of tornadoes then in July.
We don't even bother changing our schedules when the forecast calls for tornadoes here. If a tornado is imminent, we go outside and look at the sky.
Quote from: bugo on December 30, 2014, 03:32:45 PM
We don't even bother changing our schedules when the forecast calls for tornadoes here. If a tornado is imminent, we go outside and look at the sky.
/me likes this.
Proper response to a tornado. Too bad I didn't get that chance in my town last year ("Why?" you ask; because nobody knew until it was over. - no "Tornado" warning.)
[/off-topic]
This might be an outside chance but it will fall on work related stuff. I cannot plan stuff more than a month in advance cause my employer loves to change schedules on us (it happened right before Brandon's meet last year).
Quote from: bugo on December 30, 2014, 03:32:45 PM
We don't even bother changing our schedules when the forecast calls for tornadoes here. If a tornado is imminent, we go outside and look at the sky.
Yeah, that's my running joke at work. When we have a tornado drill, while everyone else heads for the designated shelter area, I grab my camera and head outside.
(We seriously had a tornado warning either earlier this year or last year, and that's exactly what I did.)
Quote from: jpi on December 30, 2014, 02:22:28 PM
I have booked a hotel in Wichita for the drive out, mainly getting new counties in KS and new interstate mileage on I-35. I did I-70 accross the state back in July 09 on my first "cross country" trip to Albuquerque, NM it was hot, dry and triple digit heat all the way to eastern CO. I will moniter weather closely since it is late May and higher potential of tornadoes then in July.
Hey, an impromptu storm chasing trip! :clap:
Quote from: hbelkins on December 31, 2014, 08:49:11 PM
Quote from: jpi on December 30, 2014, 02:22:28 PM
I have booked a hotel in Wichita for the drive out, mainly getting new counties in KS and new interstate mileage on I-35. I did I-70 accross the state back in July 09 on my first "cross country" trip to Albuquerque, NM it was hot, dry and triple digit heat all the way to eastern CO. I will moniter weather closely since it is late May and higher potential of tornadoes then in July.
Hey, an impromptu storm chasing trip! :clap:
Now that would be a new kind of road meet, for sure.
Yeah, will see how it goes, over 11 years of living in the souths "tornado ally" and I still have yet to see one. BTW Cody- still looking for lodgeing in the Golden, CO area.
I saw a tornado in Whitehouse, Texas of all places when I was in middle school. That day there were at least 5 tornado warnings for Smith County. My aunt's house had a huge picture window and we sat in front of the window and watched the storms. The tornado moved from west to east and "bounced" up and down like a basketball along a ridge in the distance. We weren't in any danger so we just watched it.
Then there's the time that I drove through what I suspect was a very weak tornado....
I RSVP'd on Facebook.
Just booked my hotel (the Howard Johnson Denver West). See you there!
Draft Meet Tour posted: http://www.corcohighways.org/2015FRONTRANGEROADMEET.pdf
Updated Meet Description posted: https://www.facebook.com/events/624466810998066/
Suggestions more than welcome.
Quote from: corco on March 28, 2015, 07:22:09 PM
Draft Meet Tour posted: http://www.corcohighways.org/2015FRONTRANGEROADMEET.pdf
Updated Meet Description posted: https://www.facebook.com/events/624466810998066/
Suggestions more than welcome.
I suggest allowing about 15 minutes extra time at the base of Mt. Evans (SH 103/SH 5 junction), for people to visit the Echo Lake Lodge there, in addition to a few minutes waiting on the way up or down for mountain goats to clear the road. People can buy souvenirs at the gift shop (I went crazy there my first visit -- the "Got Oxygen?" T-shirts/sweatshirts are a popular item), use the restrooms, and maybe grab a snack.
Next to the spacious summit parking lot are some ruins which might be a good place for a group photo. Mountain goats sometimes hang out there. Up to you whether you want the goats in, or out, of the shot.
I'll be driving to Colorado in my Prius, which won't have enough power to make it up Mt. Evans, so I'd have to leave it behind at the meet restaurant or at the Echo Lake Lodge. As with Pikes Peak, vehicles going to the summit should be able to shift down to first gear on the descent to avoid frying the brakes.
Quote from: oscar on March 28, 2015, 08:21:57 PM
Next to the spacious summit parking lot are some ruins which might be a good place for a group photo. Mountain goats sometimes hang out there. Up to you whether you want the goats in, or out, of the shot.
We've already had one meet crashed by goats. Surely not another one! If Pikeville was Alanland, then this will be Alanland West.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 28, 2015, 09:44:57 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 28, 2015, 08:21:57 PM
Next to the spacious summit parking lot are some ruins which might be a good place for a group photo. Mountain goats sometimes hang out there. Up to you whether you want the goats in, or out, of the shot.
We've already had one meet crashed by goats. Surely not another one! If Pikeville was Alanland, then this will be Alanland West.
As I was checking out an old truss bridge on a VA secondary (following VA 42's gaps), I came upon a group of screaming goats at someone's farm. It sounded for all the world like they were saying "Hello, hi" to me.
Quote from: Alps on March 29, 2015, 10:51:36 PM
As I was checking out an old truss bridge on a VA secondary (following VA 42's gaps), I came upon a group of screaming goats at someone's farm. It sounded for all the world like they were saying "Hello, hi" to me.
To digress, aside from the noisy goats (to which I'm indifferent, so long as they're behind fences -- Mt. Evans' goats are quieter), how was that secondary road? I plan to be down that way later this week, and was thinking of taking that road and a fragment of VA 42 as a shortcut between US 460 and I-64.
Quote from: oscar on March 29, 2015, 11:04:59 PMTo digress, aside from the noisy goats (to which I'm indifferent, so long as they're behind fences -- Mt. Evans' goats are quieter), how was that secondary road? I plan to be down that way later this week, and was thinking of taking that road and a fragment of VA 42 as a shortcut between US 460 and I-64.
Speaking from my own experiences, it's not going to save you any time or distance as a shortcut. It would solely be a recreational drive...though if that's what you're looking for, it fits. Mike says on VHP that SR 615 isn't a bad drive, and neither is 42 between New Castle and 460, though there's a steep climb out of New Castle. I haven't been on 615 but I've been on 42.
As for time/distance, taking 220/615/42 is 8 miles longer than just staying on I-81 to US 460, and is 12 miles longer than an I-64/US 60/WV 63/US 219 routing.
Another option that's the same length as 64/60/63/219 is I-64 to VA 159 to VA/WV 311 to WV 3 to US 219.
After reading the tour agenda, a few thoughts come to mind:
The later in the day, the more likely to experience lightning, thunderstorms, and cloudiness. It's no fun to be at high-altitude during weather like that. My suggestion would be to depart for Evans early in the day, and then do lunch afterwards. After lunch you could do another (shorter) loop to see the tunnel, the bridge, and Lookout Mtn.
If any of the attendees has one of the following passes, they can bring it and avoid paying the Mt. Evans toll road fee:
-America the Beautiful National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands Passes (Annual, Senior, Access or Volunteer)
-Valid (lifetime) Golden Age, Golden Access Passports
Might be a good idea to have a "designated driver" in an extra car who is available to evacuate anyone who experiences altitude sickness. Being well-hydrated helps, but being over-hydrated isn't good either.
No matter how hot it is down in Denver, the summit of Evans will be cold and windy, so bring a jacket, gloves, hat, etc.
Not that it matters much, but just so people don't expect to experience a "summit" like they typically would on a mountain pass road: SH 103 (despite the name "Squaw Pass Rd") doesn't actually go over Squaw Pass. Rather, the road essentially follows an elevation contour that just happens to pass by Squaw Pass.
Quote from: usends on March 30, 2015, 11:37:12 AM
The later in the day, the more likely to experience lightning, thunderstorms, and cloudiness. It's no fun to be at high-altitude during weather like that. My suggestion would be to depart for Evans early in the day, and then do lunch afterwards. After lunch you could do another (shorter) loop to see the tunnel, the bridge, and Lookout Mtn.
Is the parking near the meet restaurant open before the restaurant does?
Even if it is, an early departure to Mt. Evans could complicate things for people who aren't staying in the Golden area, including one who was lives in Pueblo and was planning to attend the meet as a day trip.
FWIW, I've driven up Mt. Evans two or three times, always in the afternoon (because I am sooooo not a morning person), and weather was never an issue for me.
Quote from: usends on March 30, 2015, 11:37:12 AM
Might be a good idea to have a "designated driver" in an extra car who is available to evacuate anyone who experiences altitude sickness.
Good point, though another way to deal with that contingency is for every car going up to the summit to take one less passenger than the maximum. That would not only leave room for shifting passengers among cars, should one or two people need to descend early, but it would also mean less work for the engines on the way up and the brakes on the way down.
Quote from: froggie on March 30, 2015, 07:48:24 AM
Quote from: oscar on March 29, 2015, 11:04:59 PMTo digress, aside from the noisy goats (to which I'm indifferent, so long as they're behind fences -- Mt. Evans' goats are quieter), how was that secondary road? I plan to be down that way later this week, and was thinking of taking that road and a fragment of VA 42 as a shortcut between US 460 and I-64.
Speaking from my own experiences, it's not going to save you any time or distance as a shortcut. It would solely be a recreational drive...though if that's what you're looking for, it fits. Mike says on VHP that SR 615 isn't a bad drive, and neither is 42 between New Castle and 460, though there's a steep climb out of New Castle. I haven't been on 615 but I've been on 42.
As for time/distance, taking 220/615/42 is 8 miles longer than just staying on I-81 to US 460, and is 12 miles longer than an I-64/US 60/WV 63/US 219 routing.
Another option that's the same length as 64/60/63/219 is I-64 to VA 159 to VA/WV 311 to WV 3 to US 219.
You can also try 42-311-18 if you haven't driven VA 18 yet. Because of the distance it is 15 minutes longer than 42-615-220. VA 18 is a good road. VA 311 between them has some mountain ascents but it is not particularly nasty.
What I remember about 615 was a lot of 40 mph curves but not much elevation change.
Mapmikey
Getting off-topic, but several years ago I drove VA Secondary 635/WV County 17/VA Secondary 600/VA 18 between US 460 near Pearisburg and I-64 at Covington. Scenic drive, but the pavement in West Virginia wasn't that great at the time.
Quote from: SSOWorld on December 30, 2014, 04:06:27 PM
Quote from: bugo on December 30, 2014, 03:32:45 PM
We don't even bother changing our schedules when the forecast calls for tornadoes here. If a tornado is imminent, we go outside and look at the sky.
/me likes this.
Proper response to a tornado. Too bad I didn't get that chance in my town last year ("Why?" you ask; because nobody knew until it was over. - no "Tornado" warning.)
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Last week the sirens went off and half of my neighbors were out there as well. I took this photo of (I think) a rain wrapped tornado which was about 5 miles away near downtown Tulsa.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8743/16743676768_0954d74dc8_c.jpg)
Quote from: usends on March 30, 2015, 11:37:12 AM
The later in the day, the more likely to experience lightning, thunderstorms, and cloudiness. It's no fun to be at high-altitude during weather like that. My suggestion would be to depart for Evans early in the day, and then do lunch afterwards. After lunch you could do another (shorter) loop to see the tunnel, the bridge, and Lookout Mtn.
When I went to Rocky Mountain National Park in 2006, the rangers and all our guide material hammered into our heads: whatever you do, be down below treeline by noon, and don't venture back up until after any storms pass. Wasn't simply a question of annoyance, they said it was unsafe to be outside above treeline during a storm because if lightning wants to strike anywhere nearby, it will strike
YOU since you're the tallest thing around.
This was in July and indeed, for the entire week I was in the area, without fail it got stormy shortly after noon every day.
Now I get the sense that the "ZOMG get down below treeline or ur gonna die!!!" aspect of all that is a bit overblown. But even so, being up there while it's stormy ruins the sightseeing aspect of the trip. The itinerary has us up there between 3 and 4 PM, roughly. A brief storm will likely have passed out of the mountains by that point, but no guarantees.
What I don't know is whether at the end of the day thundestroms will form daily like they do in July. I would guess the answer would be know, but someone more familiar with weather in the area might better be able to comment.
Hmmm... I should be driving north across the Mexican border at Del Rio, Texas, on that day, in caravan with at least two other families. Don't think I'll be able to make. Even though Colorado is one of my all-time favorite destinations and we'd love to take the kids out there.
I'm booked for now (subject to change, after the start time for the meet itinerary is nailed down) for two nights at the suggested meet motel Super 8-Westminster North. Driving out from the East Coast, though a day later than I'd planned due to my niece's college graduation the week before. I'll have to rework my itinerary to cut back on my usual side-winding and other indirect routes, but probably will clinch US 24, US 40, US 91, and US 189 on the way out (which will probably still include a pre-meet detour to Salt Lake City).
I will likely be driving into Denver from Wyoming on Friday (arriving late), and heading back to Wyoming Sunday morning for a few more days before swinging back south for a few days of hot springing in southern Colorado/northern New Mexico, then taking a southern route (TBD) back home from there.
BTW, for those looking to room-share ... not me, thank you. Snoring is just one of my sleep disorders.
Done deal for me, just secured the days off I need, Will be driving out Thursday and Friday, staying Fri night and Sat. night then driving back to Nashville area Sunday and Monday, Thursday will be 75% interstate to west side of Wichta, KS then Friday accross the US 50\400 corridor getting lots of new counties in KS and CO, then driving back accross northern CO and KS, then accross southern Iowa to the AVE of Saints corridor south to St Louis then home, should be a fun road trip with more new counties and US\ interstate milage, also I have a room booked in Westminster at the Quality Inn.
Days off, hotels booked, car ready. I shall see you guys there. I-55 > I-72 > US-36 > I-29 > I-435 > I-70 out and I-76 > I-80 (with diversions) back.
I am leaning toward going, but have not yet made concrete arrangements. I have friends in Colorado I may try to visit as part of this trip.
A couple of points regarding the itinerary:
* Is this our first stop? (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Idaho+Springs,+CO/@39.7475807,-105.39992,168m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x876ba525c91b6e55:0xfb9e9ae2915f3f68)
* I have done some Web research into the Mt. Evans highway. While it would be preferable to negotiate it in a car that can be held in first gear, I think it may be possible to negotiate it in a car that can be held no lower than second gear. Per CDOT, the maximum grade is 9% between the start of the route and Summit Lake, and 15% between Summit Lake and the summit parking lot. I have found that a small car with the second-gear limitation can handle Ebbetts Pass, which has a 15.6% maximum grade. However, there are two main differences that may affect the go/no-go calculation. Mt. Evans is at about 14,000 feet while Ebbetts Pass tops out at a little over 8,000 feet, so at a given speed the compression braking effort available from the engine is about 23% lower at Mt. Evans than at Ebbetts Pass. Google Maps does not afford easy comparison, but there is also a possibility Mt. Evans may have steep grades sustained over longer lengths.
1. Yes
2. Good to know. I have a car with a manual transmission and I know at least one other attendee does. I'd assume between the remainder of the cars, we should have two or three others that are capable of reasonably easily descending.
I will have a rental that will be automatice so I prefer to ride with someone on this tour. :-)
I have an engine braking mode on my Prius, but I'm not sure how that will fare on the descent. It did well going down some steep hills in West Virginia.
Quote from: corco on May 03, 2015, 12:57:37 AM
1. Yes
2. Good to know. I have a car with a manual transmission and I know at least one other attendee does. I'd assume between the remainder of the cars, we should have two or three others that are capable of reasonably easily descending.
Yes. I will be bringing my manual transmission car.
Quote from: jpi on May 04, 2015, 02:55:37 PM
I will have a rental that will be automatice so I prefer to ride with someone on this tour. :-)
I will be in this situation as well. :)
Quote from: codyg1985 on May 04, 2015, 03:10:20 PM
I have an engine braking mode on my Prius, but I'm not sure how that will fare on the descent. It did well going down some steep hills in West Virginia.
So does mine. It might get by on the descent, though I'm unsure it's equivalent to the first gear I've used (in other vehicles) on previous descents. For people using rentals, odds are your automatic transmissions can be put into first gear, though I used to have one (1986 Honda Prelude) with an automatic transmission (big mistake, for a Prelude) that could be manually downshifted only to second gear. You can also stop for a brake check halfway down (as I did in my Prelude on the descent from Pikes Peak), if mountain goats don't force you to take a break anyway.
I'd be more worried about the ascent from Echo Lake Lodge (more than 3000' altitude below the Mt. Evans summit, with almost no level or downhill stretches between the Lodge and the Summit), which would quickly drain the hybrid battery so you'd be relying solely on the little gas motor the rest of the way up. My Prius has done OK on other trips in the Rockies, but the worst I had to deal with were relatively short grades followed by level or downhill stretches where I could recharge the hybrid battery before climbing the next grade. For comparison, my Prius handled comfortably the climb up and descent from Loveland Pass on US 6, about 12,000 feet altitude compared to Mt. Evans' 14200'+.
I was planning not to take my Prius to the Mt. Evans summit. I hope there'll be enough vehicles with low gears and bigger (or turbo'd) gas or diesel engines, to fit everybody in the meet group (with room to spare, as discussed upthread, in case someone has to descend immediately due to altitude sickness).
AIUI, the Prius has regenerative braking, so in that sense it may be better equipped to handle hill descents than vehicles with a conventional powertrain. The trouble (as Oscar alludes) will be getting it up to the Mt. Evans summit in the first place; in my surfing I found references to a Prius having to turn back down shy of the summit when its battery charge ran out and the small gasoline-powered engine couldn't provide enough juice to finish the climb.
At this stage I am planning to use my Saturn for this trip (consensus on the SaturnFans forum: "Don't worry" about Mt. Evans). On roadmeet drives, I normally prefer to drive myself and offer the front passenger seat to someone who wants it, rather than take a rear passenger seat in someone else's car. (I usually wind up in the backseat since I normally don't take through-the-windshield video or photos. There probably won't be a reason for me to make an exception on this trip since CDOT has photologging online.) However, I plan to play things by ear since there may be limited parking at the Mt. Evans summit.
My car's low gear (just labeled "L") is shit under most circumstances since it basically wants to slow me down to 20 MPH whenever I go into it even if that means revving at 4000+ RPM. This I suppose is roughly equivalent to "first gear", but since my transmission is a CVT, the concept of having a small and finite number of gear ratios is foreign to it. I've played with moving the car back and forth between D and L to get some engine braking without slowing down to grandpa speed, but this is only somewhat effective.
Whether it would manage to slow me down quite so much at high altitude is an open question since this car has yet to be driven west of the Mississippi. I'm crazy enough to attempt the drive anyway although I will gladly defer to others with better equipped vehicles for the tour. Especially since it's not like this trip involves me putting 10,000 miles on my car in two weeks or anything like that. :awesomeface:
I have a quick-shifting auto in my car and it has the ability to go between gears manually. With 5 speeds and easy transition (flick it ;) ) - it was useful for engine braking in the mountains E and W. I'll coast down a hill on I-70 in Colorado in 3rd or 4th gear - better than burning out the brakes (which had been replaced prior - in 2013)
Quote from: Duke87 on May 04, 2015, 08:07:18 PM
My car's low gear (just labeled "L") is shit under most circumstances since it basically wants to slow me down to 20 MPH whenever I go into it even if that means revving at 4000+ RPM.
Believe me, you won't want to go any faster than 20mph, either uphill or downhill. So long as your engine can handle the revs, your CVT's "low gear" sounds sufficient.
For the meet attendees who may be flying into Denver and would need to rent a car, I figured that I would alert you that I've found a good deal on a rental from Budget. I'm staying in Colorado (and New Mexico) for 6 days and was able to get a rental for a full size sedan for $111 before taxes.
That is cheap! I have a rental booked for this trip that is a little more then that for a week but then again, it is at a Hertz here in town, not at an airport.
This might be a long shot, but is anyone able to give me a lift to Fort Collins as soon as the meet is over on Saturday? I'm trying to cram everything into this weekend and visit a couple friends.
Of course, I will reimburse for gas, and A.J. will be giving me a lift from Fort Collins back to Michigan on Sunday morning.
Quote from: getemngo on May 09, 2015, 05:13:01 PM
This might be a long shot, but is anyone able to give me a lift to Fort Collins as soon as the meet is over on Saturday? I'm trying to cram everything into this weekend and visit a couple friends.
Of course, I will reimburse for gas, and A.J. will be giving me a lift from Fort Collins back to Michigan on Sunday morning.
I don't see why I wouldn't be able to do this. Plus it gives me an excuse to geek a bit more. :)
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on May 09, 2015, 05:14:08 PM
I don't see why I wouldn't be able to do this. Plus it gives me an excuse to geek a bit more. :)
Looks like we're taking this discussion to Facebook.
Hi there! Please try to confirm your attendance for me by tomorrow. So far I have everybody who RSVPed on Facebook, Oscar, and Winkler.
Just to confirm (doubly?) that I will be there--I haven't booked lodging yet, but have rearranged my obligations so I can be away. I have also polished and waxed my car to give myself a fighting chance of cleaning off all the bugs I will doubtless accumulate between Wichita and Denver.
Since the weather gods are laughing at us and having it snow on Mt. Evans in late May, despite very little snow all winter, and the highway is still closed, the meet has been substantially revised. Here it is as of today:
http://www.corcohighways.org/FRONTRANGEMEET2.pdf
This is more or less what I originally scouted back in February, and I think it should work well.
The revised itinerary has us returning to Golden very late in the day, and will be even later once the usual delays (construction, traffic and otherwise) are added, given how much territory it will cover. Since I need to leave the Denver area really, really early the following morning, I will be particularly antsy about any delays that develop. So I suggest trimming back the itinerary.
Two possibilities:
-- cut out entirely the stop in Gilman, which is a long stop for something not really road-related
-- make the stop at the Eisenhower Tunnel really brief, especially if we're running late -- I just drove through there yesterday (on my way to Utah, where I am now), there isn't a whole lot to see there.
One other thought -- Loveland Pass is a good, scenic substitute for Mt. Evans. But it will likely be chilly (I froze my ass off at the lower-elevation Vail Pass rest area yesterday afternoon, shorts and flip-flops didn't cut it). My impression is that CDOT works really hard to keep the Loveland Pass road open, since it's needed for truck traffic not allowed in the Eisenhower Tunnels (hazmat, overheight, etc.), but we should double-check that including any chain requirements.
Is there a way to check the opening status of the Mt. Evans Highway in real time? The only news stories I have been able to find that say it won't open in time for the Memorial Day just past are all dated May 20.
Personally, I prefer the itinerary that has Mt. Evans. The alternate has some pretty sweet consolation prizes, but will result in some people attending the meet (myself included) driving back and forth on various lengths of I-70 three or more times.
Edit: Found the COTrip.org page (http://www.cotrip.org/m/alertDtl.xhtml?id=204819&rd=171). The alert is seven days old, but still hasn't been cleared, so it has to be presumed current. If a choice has to be made between Gilman and the Eisenhower Tunnel, I would jettison the tunnel, because it has too great a police presence for us to sightsee casually.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 28, 2015, 02:09:45 AM
If a choice has to be made between Gilman and the Eisenhower Tunnel, I would jettison the tunnel, because it has too great a police presence for us to sightsee casually.
I'd be concerned that the police might order our group to vacate the brake check area, to make room for trucks that might need it to do brake checks, and proceed through the tunnel. If that happens, you don't want our group to be scattered all over the tunnel portal area, unable to quickly return to our vehicles.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 28, 2015, 02:09:45 AM
Is there a way to check the opening status of the Mt. Evans Highway in real time? The only news stories I have been able to find that say it won't open in time for the Memorial Day just past are all dated May 20..
Someone could call the Echo Lake Lodge at the foot of Mt. Evans, at (303) 567-2138. The lodge is probably pissed off about losing business from summit visitors last weekend, and should have the latest scoop on when the summit road will reopen.
I might call myself, post-meet, to see if the gift shop will be open during my third pass through the Denver area late next week, so I can restock on Mt. Evans souvenirs even if I can't revisit the summit this year.
Quote from: oscar on May 28, 2015, 06:40:33 AMI'd be concerned that the police might order our group to vacate the brake check area, to make room for trucks that might need it to do brake checks, and proceed through the tunnel. If that happens, you don't want our group to be scattered all over the tunnel portal area, unable to quickly return to our vehicles.
I suspect they would send someone out to ask what we were doing simply because they are present on site and actually getting out of vehicles to look at the infrastructure, as opposed to simply using it, is considered unusual behavior. The Eisenhower Tunnel is sufficiently well known even to non-roadgeeks that it would not surprise me to discover that they have a protocol for moving sightseers on.
There are a few tunnels on the Colorado state highway system where I would have no qualms about parking in a maintenance depot or on a length of bypassed highway and then working over the tunnel inside and out, including looking at the emergency exits. (I have done this for a snowshed (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Wolf+Creek+Pass,+San+Juan+National+Forest,+Colorado+81147/@37.479422,-106.779502,3a,75y,232.63h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sWOFcWZbCtJvNYrbKWEap6A!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x873e0975ed94814b:0x6e9a3df7dfea0a52!6m1!1e1) and a recently opened tunnel (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Wolf+Creek+Pass,+San+Juan+National+Forest,+Colorado+81147/@37.548892,-106.775349,3a,75y,148.09h,86.12t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sr9bo3wPX3WOy9b6_8lftvw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x873e0975ed94814b:0x6e9a3df7dfea0a52!6m1!1e1) on US 160 over Wolf Creek Pass.) However, the Eisenhower Tunnel is a bit too heavily trafficked to fall into this category.
Quote from: oscar on May 28, 2015, 06:40:33 AMSomeone could call the Echo Lake Lodge at the foot of Mt. Evans, at (303) 567-2138. The lodge is probably pissed off about losing business from summit visitors last weekend, and should have the latest scoop on when the summit road will reopen.
They have an info email address, and I have sent email to it, just to see what (if anything) comes back.
Heard back from Echo Lake Lodge:
QuoteJonathan,
The latest information that we have is that road to Mt.Evans will not be opening until late June. They have been unable to plow due to all of the snow. Also, they are reinforcing the road by Lincoln lake and until the snow is removed, they are unable to begin that work. You can call us anytime and see if we have anymore information 3035672138, but that's the latest information that we have.
Let's hope the weather starts cooperating.
Dustin Day
Restaurant Manager
Echo Lake Lodge
So Mt. Evans is definitely out for us.
So are we switching from the Golden Diner to the Spot Bar & Grille?
A six-hour meet tour? No offense to the planner, but now I'm glad I can't come. That's waaaaay too long for my taste and my (im)patience level. I am fidgety anytime the tour goes over three hours, and I start getting that way past the two-hour mark.
Personally, I don't think the projected length of the tour is prohibitive, but I would suggest thinking about comfort and caffeine stops and perhaps taking along some snack food. The length of I-70 we will be covering seems to have just one rest area, at Shrine Pass, a bit west of Vail Pass.
The driving tour for the July 2013 Wichita meet (which I developed, though I was not the primary organizer) came in at just about three hours all told, and there was an unplanned mad dash for a vending machine at an apartment building near the Mack Bridge because the day turned out to be much hotter than expected (108° F, if memory serves).
Quote from: Brandon on May 28, 2015, 01:25:53 PM
So are we switching from the Golden Diner to the Spot Bar & Grille?
Yes, that is locked in.
Quote from: corco on May 28, 2015, 08:34:00 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 28, 2015, 01:25:53 PM
So are we switching from the Golden Diner to the Spot Bar & Grille?
Yes, that is locked in.
Well, I'm glad someone posted that here... seriously dude
Quote from: hbelkins on May 28, 2015, 04:29:28 PM
A six-hour meet tour? No offense to the planner, but now I'm glad I can't come. That's waaaaay too long for my taste and my (im)patience level. I am fidgety anytime the tour goes over three hours, and I start getting that way past the two-hour mark.
The seven-hour length of the tour wouldn't normally bother me. In this case, though, it collides with my need to leave Denver for phase II of my trip right around the crack of dawn on Sunday, so I'd like to grab some dinner by 7:30pm (with my evening meds a half-hour before then) and be in bed no later than 9pm. Plus, the part of the meet tour that really prolongs the tour is a visit to a ghost town, which is of really marginal interest to me. I'm tempted to drive my own car on the tour so I can peel away right after Loveland Pass (which I've done before, but I wouldn't mind doing again). Or perhaps if the Red Cliff Arch Bridge visit could be moved before the Gilman ghost town visit, I could peel away after the bridge, skipping the ghost town and also not stopping at the very familiar (for me) Eisenhower Tunnels.
FWIW, Steve's New York City meet had a challenging day 1 itinerary (focused on the five boroughs -- we spent day 2 in New Jersey), which I had thought was maybe a little ambitious. But we finished up almost on time, before 7pm so people could attend evening activities of their choice (for most, a minor league baseball game). 7pm seems the ideal time to wrap up a meet tour, even if sunset is later, so that people can have dinner at a more or less normal time, and also have time for evening social events of their choosing.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 28, 2015, 05:03:08 PM
Personally, I don't think the projected length of the tour is prohibitive, but I would suggest thinking about comfort and caffeine stops and perhaps taking along some snack food. The length of I-70 we will be covering seems to have just one rest area, at Shrine Pass, a bit west of Vail Pass.
There are more rest areas, and other bathroom and snack purchase opportunities, than that. Many of the "rest areas" are local visitor information centers, with restrooms in separate buildings that stay open after the rest of the centers close. They don't always have the usual easy-off easy-return feature of conventional rest areas (one infuriating one, you have to go through three roundabouts to get from the westbound freeway, and the same three to get back), but so long as you can hold it in that long they'll do the job. And there are quite a few restaurants along I-70, too.
Good news, then! I had been talking with another attendee over Facebook, wish is where the Gilman idea came in. I apparently misinterpreted the comment - Gilman is not actually open to the public but there is a place to step out and view it, which would Am significantly shorten the need for the stop.
Generally, I apologize for this- I left to hit the road before it was announced that Mt Evans wouldn't be open, believing that after the winter Colorado had there was no way it would not be open. That was my bad for making that assumption. In the meantime, I've been trying to almost entirely rebuild the meet while traveling otherwise.
My intention is to make this right though - I have much of the day today to look at where we can make changes to fix the length of the tour and revise accordingly. Plan on a third meet tour draft sometime tonight.
Here is my thought right now, copied from facebook:
Sorry to jerk folks around - soliciting feedback on an idea in light of Evans being closed and Red Cliff Arch being so far out. Would this meet tour be more preferable?
1. Lunch at Spot Diner
2. I-70 viaduct
3. Head via Morrison and Evergreen to I-70
4. Loveland Pass
5. Idaho Spgs pony truss
6. Abandoned tunnel no. 4
7. Mt Lookout
This would be a lot less driving and should shave a couple hours off the meet tour. I'm familiar with all the stood except the viaduct, but will drive under and find a spot this evening.
Let me know if this would be preferable to pursue and we can do that. I'll have time to rewrite the meet tour today.
I generally support this. It has fewer moving parts, it is less vulnerable to unplanned delays, and it cuts deadheading on I-70 for me. It looks a bit short, but I imagine it will fill the afternoon when all is said and done. I can probably scoop both Gilman and Red Cliff on my way to Glenwood Springs.
I'm not going to be able to contribute further comments for about nine or ten hours starting now since I have to start my drive to Denver (in fact, I am running slightly late).
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 28, 2015, 05:03:08 PM
The driving tour for the July 2013 Wichita meet (which I developed, though I was not the primary organizer) came in at just about three hours all told, and there was an unplanned mad dash for a vending machine at an apartment building near the Mack Bridge because the day turned out to be much hotter than expected (108° F, if memory serves).
Yeah, I'm glad I saw that machine. I think it was a Pepsi machine, but at that point I was so parched I didn't really care. And I think I downed two Diet Whatevers in pretty short order.
Quote from: oscar on May 28, 2015, 11:13:21 PM
FWIW, Steve's New York City meet had a challenging day 1 itinerary (focused on the five boroughs -- we spent day 2 in New Jersey), which I had thought was maybe a little ambitious. But we finished up almost on time, before 7pm so people could attend evening activities of their choice (for most, a minor league baseball game). 7pm seems the ideal time to wrap up a meet tour, even if sunset is later, so that people can have dinner at a more or less normal time, and also have time for evening social events of their choosing.
If it's a multi-day meet, then a longer itinerary generally works OK, especially if there are group social plans following. For single-day meets that I've attended, I usually have my departure planned at the end of the meet and have a motel reservation in another city. The later the tour goes, the later I am at getting to my destination -- well this was the case back when I could attend meets. :-(
I have posted the final meet tour here:
http://www.corcohighways.org/2015FRONTRANGEMEETFINAL.pdf
Thanks everybody for your patience.
Quote from: corco on May 29, 2015, 10:11:02 AM
Here is my thought right now, copied from facebook:
Sorry to jerk folks around - soliciting feedback on an idea in light of Evans being closed and Red Cliff Arch being so far out. Would this meet tour be more preferable?
1. Lunch at Spot Diner
2. I-70 viaduct
3. Head via Morrison and Evergreen to I-70
4. Loveland Pass
5. Idaho Spgs pony truss
6. Abandoned tunnel no. 4
7. Mt Lookout
This would be a lot less driving and should shave a couple hours off the meet tour. I'm familiar with all the stood except the viaduct, but will drive under and find a spot this evening.
Let me know if this would be preferable to pursue and we can do that. I'll have time to rewrite the meet tour today.
This seems to work better. But the arrival back in Golden (scheduled to be 7:35pm, but likely to be later with the usual delays) is still pretty late (especially for me), so I suggest looking for further trims, especially shortening the winding route between stops 1 and 2.
Thank you Corco for such a great meet!
I took I-55 south to I-72 west out past Hannibal onto US-36. Then, I went south on I-35, I-70, I-670, back to I-35 to complete the alphabet loop, and then I-35 south the I-635 north to finish I-35 in Missouri. From there, I-70 west to WaKeeney for the night.
Next day, I-70 west to C-58 into Golden. The meet was great, and I now have finished I-70 from Cove Fort to Frederick, MD. Just have the little bit from there to I-695 to complete. Then, on the way out, it was C-58 to I-70 to I-76 to Brush for the night.
Last day, I used I-76 to I-80 to get back with two twists. I clinched I-680 in Nebraska and Iowa, and then I-235 in Des Moines.
Just a few photos below.
Interesting arrow in Lincoln, IL.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_5520_zps3ieg65jv.jpg&hash=d09e8d3da495a7d1fec60a2490bd068c36b6f595) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/midamcrossrds/media/100_5520_zps3ieg65jv.jpg.html)
Barrelman in Hannibal, MO, by the MoDOT district office.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_5536_zpsizj3xkqi.jpg&hash=7386c25d4f068796f95048e9fb51c8954fd0f3a2) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/midamcrossrds/media/100_5536_zpsizj3xkqi.jpg.html)
Angled arrows in Hannibal, US-61 and US-36.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_5539_zpshm2zrvo5.jpg&hash=5dec8d575be6053d73b80368584525ef1fff3624) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/midamcrossrds/media/100_5539_zpshm2zrvo5.jpg.html)
Bathroom at the Love's Truck Stop in Denver we had to use. Women's is in side, this is the men's.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_5602_zpshsg4kqih.jpg&hash=e9eceb6bb10098dc93d4d930f73097bbc3026353) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/midamcrossrds/media/100_5602_zpshsg4kqih.jpg.html)
Meet photo at 11,992 feet above sea level, the highest meet photo taken to date.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_5609_zpsvpz8o52s.jpg&hash=47958f092baa8613fe0e138d0c531238de988fc6) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/midamcrossrds/media/100_5609_zpsvpz8o52s.jpg.html)
It was an official Alanland meet.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_5612_zpskxzedhsn.jpg&hash=f00607c8b0f812363f88612bf08c201aa37e0967) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/midamcrossrds/media/100_5612_zpskxzedhsn.jpg.html)
Yes, this is how Nebraska signs their gore points.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_5654_zpsa0ql9krj.jpg&hash=f2fbccc565ecdedb6a5d5b457611ef976eb9d42e) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/midamcrossrds/media/100_5654_zpsa0ql9krj.jpg.html)
I-680 was full of old demountable and button copy signage north of US-6.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi837.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fzz298%2Fmidamcrossrds%2F100_5656_zpsg7da3gg6.jpg&hash=27b1ca70a119df8cae852c9f9ce8b4e1846f386c) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/midamcrossrds/media/100_5656_zpsg7da3gg6.jpg.html)
I wonder if bunker blasts were more likely at 11,992 feet.
Quote from: bandit957 on June 01, 2015, 08:24:39 PM
I wonder if bunker blasts were more likely at 11,992 feet.
They'd travel faster in the wind
Quote from: bandit957 on June 01, 2015, 08:24:39 PM
I wonder if bunker blasts were more likely at 11,992 feet.
Definitely yes. You have air trapped inside at base pressure, held back by the pressure at that elevation. When you go up another mile, the air pressure outside is lower, but the air inside you is the same pressure, so it WILL come out. Very amusingly and loudly.
Quote from: Brandon on June 01, 2015, 06:08:11 PM
Meet photo at 11,992 feet above sea level, the highest meet photo taken to date.
Well, you WERE in Colorado, after all. :-D
Quote from: hbelkins on June 02, 2015, 05:05:24 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 01, 2015, 06:08:11 PM
Meet photo at 11,992 feet above sea level, the highest meet photo taken to date.
Well, you WERE in Colorado, after all. :-D
But AFAIK we didn't for the meet photo work in any of the other "high" Colorado has lately been known for. Of course, what people smoked before or after the meet is their own business. And when I return to Colorado tomorrow (after roaming around Wyoming and some neighboring states), who knows what I'll partake before heading home? :)
Quote from: Alps on June 01, 2015, 11:42:24 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on June 01, 2015, 08:24:39 PM
I wonder if bunker blasts were more likely at 11,992 feet.
Definitely yes. You have air trapped inside at base pressure, held back by the pressure at that elevation. When you go up another mile, the air pressure outside is lower, but the air inside you is the same pressure, so it WILL come out. Very amusingly and loudly.
I'm pretty sure I expelled as much gas this past Saturday as I usually do in an entire week.
Too bad it's not high enough that gravity was reduced - could have had a few launches due to the gas. :sombrero:
I'm currently on my way home from Colorado, as I stuck around for a few days to explore on my own. It was a great meet and definitely the most scenic road meet that I've attended.
On the plus side, us at the meet should be glad that we went to Loveland Pass when we did, as the road to the pass was closed a day later due to an avalanche.
I had an absolutely fantastic time on this meet. I got to clinch quite a bit of new Interstate highway mileage, collected 45 new counties, visited one new state for me (Kansas), explored multiple cities, and got to hang out with a great group of guys. Thanks to David for hosting this meet!
Sam Scholtens and I left the Grand Rapids MI area on Wednesday evening. We had dinner in Matteson IL (a Chicago suburb) with Brandon Gorte and Larry Harvilla before staying overnight in nearby Monee. On Thursday we took I-57 to I-72 (driving I-72 in its entirety), having lunch in Hannibal MO, and then taking U.S. 61 south(east) to I-70 before exploring the Kansas City area and staying overnight there. I did not like I-70 across Missouri. I-70 really needs to be 6 lanes across the entire state. Kansas City was awesome with quite a nice freeway network. Sam and I clinched I-470, I-670, and I-635 - plus driving on some other freeways in the area including parts of U.S. 71, U.S. 69, and I-29/35.
We absolutely loved driving I-70 across Kansas. The traffic was light, and it was truly impressive seeing that much open plain with absolutely nothing. It was a very relaxing and enjoyable drive. I-70 in eastern Colorado was just as nice, but then traffic got heavier as we approached metro Denver. We unfortunately arrived in the Denver area around rush hour, and the traffic was absolutely horrendous. We hung out that evening with Cody Goodman and then, later, with Jason Ilyes.
The tour on Saturday was a blast! I had the opportunity to go exploring around some of the Denver-area freeways (and downtown Denver) early Saturday morning before the meet started. This was only my second visit to Denver, and I was just in awe at how beautiful that place is - not to mention Loveland Pass during the tour. It was sad to leave on Sunday morning. A few of us had breakfast together before Sam and I had to say goodbye and start the long drive back to Michigan. Sam and I were impressed with I-76 in eastern Colorado, but I-80 in Nebraska is not nearly as fun to drive on as I-70 is across Kansas. Sam and I stayed in the Des Moines area on Sunday night and got to explore that city for the first time. It's a very nice city, but our tour of it was very quick - a definite whirlwind.
The drive back to Michigan on Monday was rather uneventful. The only interesting thing I can really say about it was that it felt quite different driving across those states on I-80 eastbound heading home. It seems like I'm always taking I-80 westbound in Illinois (especially having left Michigan).
It was great seeing everyone! Thanks again, David, for a great time. :)
Quote from: Dougtone on June 03, 2015, 07:55:51 PM
I'm currently on my way home from Colorado, as I stuck around for a few days to explore on my own. It was a great meet and definitely the most scenic road meet that I've attended.
On the plus side, us at the meet should be glad that we went to Loveland Pass when we did, as the road to the pass was closed a day later due to an avalanche.
Caused by the spirited driving of one or more of our troupe, no doubt.
Quote from: Alps on June 03, 2015, 11:40:56 PM
Quote from: Dougtone on June 03, 2015, 07:55:51 PM
I'm currently on my way home from Colorado, as I stuck around for a few days to explore on my own. It was a great meet and definitely the most scenic road meet that I've attended.
On the plus side, us at the meet should be glad that we went to Loveland Pass when we did, as the road to the pass was closed a day later due to an avalanche.
Caused by the spirited driving of one or more of our troupe, no doubt.
Based on the conversation here, I blame the avalanche on a bunker blast.
Quote from: Dougtone on June 03, 2015, 11:42:26 PM
Quote from: Alps on June 03, 2015, 11:40:56 PM
Quote from: Dougtone on June 03, 2015, 07:55:51 PM
I'm currently on my way home from Colorado, as I stuck around for a few days to explore on my own. It was a great meet and definitely the most scenic road meet that I've attended.
On the plus side, us at the meet should be glad that we went to Loveland Pass when we did, as the road to the pass was closed a day later due to an avalanche.
Caused by the spirited driving of one or more of our troupe, no doubt.
Based on the conversation here, I blame the avalanche on a bunker blast.
(https://drawception.com/pub/panels/2013/5-7/QRsBAB9ymk-6.png)
Quote from: Alps on June 03, 2015, 11:40:56 PM
Quote from: Dougtone on June 03, 2015, 07:55:51 PM
I'm currently on my way home from Colorado, as I stuck around for a few days to explore on my own. It was a great meet and definitely the most scenic road meet that I've attended.
On the plus side, us at the meet should be glad that we went to Loveland Pass when we did, as the road to the pass was closed a day later due to an avalanche.
Caused by the spirited driving of one or more of our troupe, no doubt.
One could say that it was rather spirited driving. Damn, I loved those hairpin turns! :bigass:
Quote from: Brandon on June 04, 2015, 03:10:55 PM
Quote from: Alps on June 03, 2015, 11:40:56 PM
Quote from: Dougtone on June 03, 2015, 07:55:51 PM
I'm currently on my way home from Colorado, as I stuck around for a few days to explore on my own. It was a great meet and definitely the most scenic road meet that I've attended.
On the plus side, us at the meet should be glad that we went to Loveland Pass when we did, as the road to the pass was closed a day later due to an avalanche.
Caused by the spirited driving of one or more of our troupe, no doubt.
One could say that it was rather spirited driving. Damn, I loved those hairpin turns! :bigass:
Marc and I noticed :-P I tnink he was getting nearly car sick a few times, not me :-)
I wanted to thank Corco for organizing the meet and the driving tour, both of which I felt were successful. Having planned one of the latter, I know what a lot of work it is to scout out stops and devise a plausible driving schedule for just one itinerary, and in the end this had to be done three times. I used the second itinerary to plan stops at Gilman and the Red Cliff Arch Bridge, and I am holding the first in reserve for when Mount Evans reopens.
My own trip to Colorado was fairly short, involving five days and four nights away from Wichita and 1642 total miles of driving in my own car. (This does not include the ride-along with Scott Kuznicki in his BMW 5-Series for a pre-meet tour and the driving tour itself, for both of which I thank him.) I went no further west than Glenwood Springs.
My basic itinerary to Denver entailed using K-96 and US 183 out of Wichita, US 40 between Oakley and Limon, and SH 86 and I-25 east and south of Denver, with the goal of limiting travel on I-70 to 88 miles out of 532 (81 in Kansas and 7 in Colorado). I did take I-70 between Denver and Glenwood Springs, but relied on SH 82 and US 24 to connect back eastward to Colorado Springs via Independence Pass, and returned to Kansas by way of SH 94, SH 71, US 50, and US 400 from Granada onward, with a detour between La Junta and Las Animas to visit Bent's Old Fort. For the dose of fourteener driving I missed at Mount Evans, I attempted the Pikes Peak Toll Road, but got no further than 12,780 feet (mile 16 of 19) since the upper three miles were closed owing to bad weather at the summit.
In terms of driving, I-70 through the Colorado Rockies was a pleasant surprise when tackled in a first-generation Saturn S-Series DOHC automatic, largely because the high altitude (which reduced engine torque) and full-synthetic ATF in the transmission sump kept kickdowns smooth, while actuation of the cruise control system by solenoid rather than vacuum diaphragm allowed the set speed to be held within tight limits. I was able to engage cruise pretty much all the way from urban Denver to the west side of Vail Pass, where the landscape becomes drier and the speed limit goes up to 75 but there are numerous curves with reduced advisory speeds, usually 70 with occasional sprinkles of 65, 60, and even 55. On the long sustained climb out of Denver, I actually had to swing into the left lane frequently since my car had far fewer problems holding the 65 limit than most of the others on the road.
I had been particularly dreading this drive because I remembered how miserable it was in a 1986 Nissan Maxima with vacuum-actuated cruise control and bog-standard, plain-jane conventional Dexron III transmission fluid, which shears down pretty badly even over a 30,000-mile drain and fill interval. This was the first time driving this part of I-70 actually felt like being on vacation.
On my way back through Colorado Springs, I encountered a number of road-related features of interest, for which I have StreetView links:
Split-level section of SH 82 between Snowmass and Aspen (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.329065,-106.968373,3a,75y,262.09h,101.15t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sx8VkeLDd8SIJUJQEgfsAeg!2e0) (also, owing to heavy commuter traffic between Aspen and its bedroom communities further down the Roaring Fork River valley, the right-hand lane of SH 82 in both directions is a peak-hour HOV/bus lane)
Median canal section of 31st Street in Colorado Springs just north of US 24 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Colorado+Springs,+CO/@38.855975,-104.869197,3a,75y,25.03h,86.9t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s7mgYk9yR-ITOkyvPigHKhQ!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x8713412ea1e6d22b:0x418eeb92f5e86b13!6m1!1e1)
Use of doubled double yellow centerlines along Platte Street near downtown Colorado Springs to enforce RIRO and prohibit direct crossing at most side streets (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.837313,-104.797671,3a,75y,92.29h,82.97t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1snf2UyCCMRBNosWMa-ukllQ!2e0) (Platte Street is the extension of the Limon-Colorado Springs leg of US 24 into the latter city, and was probably the actual routing of US 24 before a freeway-expressway bypass was built to the south)
Platte Street railroad underpass (probably Art Deco style) near downtown Colorado Springs, probably now carrying a trail conversion (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Colorado+Springs,+CO/@38.837818,-104.812512,3a,75y,259.66h,94.21t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1spMwnwl8_EJEYsmalcB1ZtA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x8713412ea1e6d22b:0x418eeb92f5e86b13!6m1!1e1)
"No Motorist Services Next 95 Miles" on SH 94 just east of Ellicott, Colorado (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.838352,-104.382736,3a,75y,78.51h,90.43t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sCq9ssroGk-njG3ahwlhNZA!2e0) (the distance to Kit Carson, Colorado, which does have the full complement of motorist services, is actually 90 miles along SH 94 and US 287; at least one of the other wide spots in the road along SH 94 between Ellicott and SH 71--either Yoder or Rush--has a sign indicating food and phones are available)
Also, CDOT has quite viciously worded signs aimed at vehicles longer than 35 feet that attempt to use SH 82 over Independence Pass; I have photos, but sadly no StreetView links. The pass (at 12,095 feet) still has solid snow cover everywhere except the road itself and the parking lot at the summit.
Here's an abbreviated (well, less long-winded than my usual) trip report, covering the trip out to Denver ahd another week of road-tripping thereafter. Right now, I'm cooling my jets (so to speak) at Valley View Hot Springs in southern Colorado for a few more days, before taking a southerly route (TBD) the rest of the way home.
My trip out to the meet took a week and covered about 4600 miles. Anthony and Alyssa drove from farther away than I did, and they did some sidewinding and loop-de-loops like I did, so I'm not sure how my mileage compares to theirs.
Basically, I took Interstates to Cleveland, passing through the city on surface roads during protests over acquittal of a policeman charged with killing two civilians. Reportedly part of the road I took past downtown Cleveland, OH 2, was briefly closed by protesters either before or after I drove through, so I got lucky there.
From there, in Toledo I started down a long stretch of US 24 to Missouri I hadn't previously covered. Then flipping back and forth between US 24 and US 40 in western Missouri and eastern Kansas for uncovered segments of those routes. Then shot west on I-70 (short detour over US 36, which was marginally less boring than I-70 east of Denver), through Denver to Utah, then curling back through Idaho and Wyoming to the meet.
After the meet, I went back to Wyoming, mainly to revisit Yellowstone. Heading back out eastn from the park, I physically "hit the wall" around Cody WY. That threw off the rest of my itinerary back through Denver to southern Colorado, losing a day in the process. The post-meet travel so far has added about another 2800 miles to my journey.
Some brief notes along the way:
-- The 80 mph speed limit on much of I-80 through Wyoming was less helpful than I'd hoped, with too many trucks slowly passing each other. But it was less congested on 80mph stretches of I-15 in Idaho and I-25 in Wyoming, where I could set my cruise control for the speed I wanted with only occasional taps of the brake to deal with slower traffic.
-- The other thing I found is that my Prius wasn't too good at taking advantage of the higher speed limits. Basically, to maintain speeds in the 80-85mph range, my car's gas engine needed help from the hybrid electric motor, which alas wasn't always forthcoming since the hybrid battery was often drained by the high speeds even on slight inclines. When I get down to lower altitudes, I'll have to see whether my car more gracefully handles higher speeds; or maybe it's just my hybrid battery is getting old (at over 210,000 miles).
-- While Colorado likes "implied multiplexes" on its Interstates (like no US 36 signs between where it joins I-70 in eastern Colorado until the routes split in Denver), Wyoming is very good at signing its multiplexes. Most notable is the US 26/US 89/US 189/US 191 multiplex south of Jackson WY (including a useless US 189 multiplex, which could be truncated well south of Jackson where it first meets US 191 at Daniel Junction).
Major route clinches so far: I-215 in Salt Lake City (I'd somehow managed to miss a segment at its east end on many past trips to or through SLC); US 24, 40, 91, and 189 overall; US 26, 191, and 287 in Wyoming; US 20 in Idaho and Montana; and US 36, 85, 285, and 287 in Colorado. The rest of my trip home will probably clinch I-49 (new segment in AR and LA), I-485, and maybe US 11, though I-41 in WI and the latest US 48 (Corridor H) extension will probably be on another trip later this summer, and the new I-169 in south Texas is so far off my usual cross-country routes that it may take awhile for me to get back down there.
BTW, my attempt at a group meet photo at Loveland Pass completely failed, as I thought (I was able to fix my camera later). Good that Brandon, at least, had better luck than I did.
Following up on earlier discussion on whether my or Cody's Priuses could've made the climb to the Mt. Evans summit:
Starting my trip home (still on the way), I took my Prius up the Pikes Peak toll road, right after enough heavy snow had been cleared that morning from the summit and the upper four miles of the 20-mile road. We made it to the top, without much trouble:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alaskaroads.com%2Fprius-at-pikes-peak-summit_DSC6278.jpg&hash=4e63764633cf45c559e08f187950ac910458eac3)
The Pikes Peak summit is only a few dozen feet lower than the parking lot at the top of Mt. Evans. It helped that I wasn't carrying passengers, though I did have all my luggage with me. I also stopped at two visitor centers/gift shops along the way, and I ran the engine a little to recharge the hybrid battery (which was drained almost as soon as I continued my ascent).
My brakes overheated a little bit on the way down, and the ranger at the brake check station about 2700 feet elevation below the summit put my car (and others) in the "penalty box" to let our brakes cool down for a few minutes before continuing our descents. The "engine braking" mode for the Prius' continuously variable transmission was not quite as good as going down in first gear, but close enough.
On my way up, past the brake check station, I saw a newer-model Prius coming down from the summit. The summit was crowded both with people driving up and people taking the cog railroad from Manitou Springs. My guess is that many of the former decided to drive up at the last minute, after impatiently waiting for word that the road to the summit had finally reopened.
Quote from: oscar on June 10, 2015, 07:37:07 PMMy brakes overheated a little bit on the way down, and the ranger at the brake check station about 2700 feet elevation below the summit put my car (and others) in the "penalty box" to let our brakes cool down for a few minutes before continuing our descents. The "engine braking" mode for the Prius' continuously variable transmission was not quite as good as going down in first gear, but close enough.
When I passed through this station on the way down and the ranger pointed his infrared sensing gun at my left front wheel, I was cleared to go straight away, which was a pleasant surprise for a car that cannot be held lower than second gear.
However, I attempted Pikes Peak on a weekday when the final three miles to the summit were closed, so there was very little traffic. The only vehicle in my way as I was trying to ride down the straights with engine braking alone (I think my speed topped out at 35 MPH in 2nd) was a black SUV with Massachusetts plates, whose driver had the courtesy and good sense to pull over.
The Pikes Peak Toll Road has an average grade of 6.7%, and a maximum grade of 8%. In contrast, the Mount Evans Highway from Echo Lake to the summit parking lot has an average grade of about 5%, but a maximum grade of 15.6%. It may be that hybrids find Mount Evans more difficult because steep grades are concentrated along a comparatively small fraction of the mileage. Pikes Peak is much more of a steady climb since the grades have few interruptions--just the reservoir crossing and the brake check area come to mind.
Travelers at Pikes Peak receive a brochure on toll payment which advises them that the 38-mile roundtrip will consume 80 miles' worth of fuel on the level. In my case, the tank that included my 32-mile transit (a climb and descent of about 5,000 feet) averaged out to 37 MPG, like the tank before it, which had nothing more challenging than the I-70 grades and Independence Pass. My transmission does have an unusual feature that might have aided efficiency--torque converter lockup in all gears, not just the highest one or two--but actually I would expect similar results with other cars not so equipped, since in Colorado the fuel efficiency gain of generally high altitude seems to overpower the losses associated with climbing and descending grades.
Pikes Peak did punish the cooling system. By design, it has an electric radiator fan that comes on only when the A/C is engaged or coolant temperature climbs to midway between the thermostat opening and boilover temperatures. I live in a city that has few problems with congestion and most of my travel in major metropolitan areas occurs off-peak, so I rarely see engine temperatures reach the fan-on point. As my car climbed Pikes Peak, however, the temperature gauge needle bounced off the fan-on point at least three times. The last time this behavior occurred was on a Saturday in September 2014 when a slow-moving traffic jam caught me trying to transit the Golden Gate Bridge and the Bay Bridge east span in one driving loop.
The day after the meet I took my car with its aforementioned sucky low gear over Berthould Pass (US 40, elevation 11,307). Going down westbound was not particularly challenging and I made it down with minimal use of my brakes. But I annoyed a few native Coloradoans in the process since I accomplished this lack of braking primarily by lack of using the gas pedal, even if it meant letting my car slowly roll from 20 up to 45 on straightaways while other drivers passed me. I of course was not able to stay geared down the whole time but I've gotten comfortable with shifting from D to L and back to D if necessary. Engine never redlined, I have to assume the computer controlling the CVT is programmed to not let that happen.
I did have a bag of chips blow open in the back seat though. :-D
I'll spare everyone the writeup of all 16 days of my trip. But I will say it was loads of fun and this definitely raises the bar for road meets, pushing them to places they have never seen the likes of before.
Quote from: Duke87 on June 11, 2015, 12:36:04 AM
The day after the meet I took my car with its aforementioned sucky low gear over Berthould Pass (US 40, elevation 11,307). Going down westbound was not particularly challenging and I made it down with minimal use of my brakes. But I annoyed a few native Coloradoans in the process since I accomplished this lack of braking primarily by lack of using the gas pedal, even if it meant letting my car slowly roll from 20 up to 45 on straightaways while other drivers passed me. I of course was not able to stay geared down the whole time but I've gotten comfortable with shifting from D to L and back to D if necessary. Engine never redlined, I have to assume the computer controlling the CVT is programmed to not let that happen.
I did have a bag of chips blow open in the back seat though. :-D
I also drove over Berthoud Pass on my first full day out there the day before the meet. It was unplanned, as I basically decided "I'm just gonna drive where I feel like it" without any prior planning. How you did it was pretty much how I handled the drive; I had never driven over a mountain pass before and didn't know how I was supposed to handle it. In addition if the car only wanted to give me 35 in the 40 zone going uphill, so be it.
However when I drove US 550, I was going to be extra cautious and I did downshift for the three passes on that route.
Quote from: Duke87 on June 11, 2015, 12:36:04 AMThe day after the meet I took my car with its aforementioned sucky low gear over Berthoud Pass (US 40, elevation 11,307). Going down westbound was not particularly challenging and I made it down with minimal use of my brakes. But I annoyed a few native Coloradoans in the process since I accomplished this lack of braking primarily by lack of using the gas pedal, even if it meant letting my car slowly roll from 20 up to 45 on straightaways while other drivers passed me. I of course was not able to stay geared down the whole time but I've gotten comfortable with shifting from D to L and back to D if necessary. Engine never redlined, I have to assume the computer controlling the CVT is programmed to not let that happen.
It is better to rely on engine braking rather than the brakes when gaining experience descending long downgrades, even if this does annoy the natives. Especially when driving an automatic, relying first on engine braking shows more savvy than simply riding the brakes. It takes time to build the route and car knowledge required to attempt less conservative approaches to descending hills, such as allowing speed to build on the straights and braking only for curves.
I know of no example of an electronically controlled automatic transmission that will permit downshifts that would redline the engine.
Many (but not all) native Coloradans like to complain about flatland tourist drivers, but in so doing the kvetchers forget that Colorado residents are more likely to be familiar with the major mountain passes and to have more opportunities to practice mountain driving. Moreover, much of the stereotypical flatland behavior is actually exhibited by cars with Colorado plates, and inevitably some of it flows from technical limitations rather than driver naïvete.
I tend to do exactly as Mr. Winkler suggests - coast the straights and brake the curves. No issues in the hairpins. I also did gear down, but maybe only to 3rd or 4th (depending on steepness and distance between curves).
I think I was also being overcautious knowing that my ability to engine brake was stunted because of the transmission's design. If I had a looser low gear that I could stay in the whole way down without it making me crawl, or individual gear selection ability, I definitely would have been more aggressive (and likely would have found the drive a lot more fun).
With regards to silly flatland drivers, I recall on a family trip to Colorado in 2006 we drove Trail Ridge Road in a rented minivan that had a couple of low gear options - which my father knew enough to make use of. But, every time he switched into a low gear or between the two low gears, he insisted on first using the brakes to come to a complete stop in the middle of the road, because "you should never shift an automatic transmission while you're moving".
I don't know...maybe it's because I've been driving on mountain passes since about three weeks after I started driving (that was part of my driver's ed!), but I think you guys overthink it.
I've driven up and down mountains hundreds of times and never come close to burning out brakes, and I don't feel like I really do anything weird. In an automatic, I'll flip overdrive off sometimes or use cruise control to force engine braking (okay, I guess that is weird - but nice tip in an automatic: at least in modern cars without manual gear selection, set your cruise control to slightly less than the speed you want to go and the cruise will force the car to downshift), but otherwise I feel like I just drive normally and I've never had a problem. I don't remember the last time I switched to 2 or L in an automatic in non-icy conditions (in icy conditions, none of this post applies- I would never ever do things like brake mid-curve on ice).
I'm also comfortable going significantly faster around corners than most flatlanders, I guess, even in an SUV (I have a car now in addition to my Jeep Liberty, but the majority of my mountain driving has been in top heavy vehicles), so perhaps that's part of it - I guess I've developed the instincts to judge the geometry in advance to know the top speed I can safely handle it (I find the yellow squares to be terribly underposted most of the time- Montana doesn't even post the yellow squares a lot of the time), I don't slow down more than absolutely necessary, saving brake wear. I usually find myself using brakes most when I get behind another car, and have successfully caught up with sports cars in my Jeep Liberty on mountain roads on many occasions before.
Quote from: corco on June 12, 2015, 07:38:27 PMI've driven up and down mountains hundreds of times and never come close to burning out brakes, and I don't feel like I really do anything weird. In an automatic, I'll flip overdrive off sometimes or use cruise control to force engine braking (okay, I guess that is weird - but nice tip in an automatic: at least in modern cars without manual gear selection, set your cruise control to slightly less than the speed you want to go and the cruise will force the car to downshift), but otherwise I feel like I just drive normally and I've never had a problem.
This form of hill descent logic is a comparatively recent development in automatic transmissions. Toyota NCF books suggest their cars have had it since the early noughties, but I don't think I have it in my 1994 Saturn and I am quite sure my 1986 Nissan Maxima did not.
I have personally never experienced brake fade in spite of occasional unconservative choices of gear on downgrades, but I have a close friend who attempted the US 14A descent west of Burgess Junction in D and burned out the brakes in the Dodge minivan he was driving.
Quote from: corco on June 12, 2015, 07:38:27 PMI don't remember the last time I switched to 2 or L in an automatic in non-icy conditions (in icy conditions, none of this post applies- I would never ever do things like brake mid-curve on ice).
My Saturn has a four-speed automatic, and I clearly remember using 2 (the bottom gear range in this model) going over Ebbetts Pass (maximum grade 15%) as well as the Pikes Peak Toll Road. On the latter facility, coasting downhill in 2 resulted in my exceeding the speed limit by 20 MPH (speed limit 15, top speed 35).
In the Maxima (gear range choices D with overdrive, D without overdrive, 2, and 1), I used 1 going down Marin Avenue (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Marin+Ave,+Berkeley,+CA/@37.896558,-122.2624,3a,75y,77.45h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1srrayRZ2KR92Sia3RhBH1EA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DrrayRZ2KR92Sia3RhBH1EA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D100%26h%3D80%26yaw%3D74.251587%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x8085794ce6840049:0x1151bb6d6d2d9d51) in Berkeley, California, which is still my gold standard for difficult downhill driving. Even in 1 the car barely stayed under 30 MPH going downhill.
Quote from: corco on June 12, 2015, 07:38:27 PMI'm also comfortable going significantly faster around corners than most flatlanders, I guess, even in an SUV (I have a car now in addition to my Jeep Liberty, but the majority of my mountain driving has been in top heavy vehicles), so perhaps that's part of it - I guess I've developed the instincts to judge the geometry in advance to know the top speed I can safely handle it (I find the yellow squares to be terribly underposted most of the time- Montana doesn't even post the yellow squares a lot of the time), I don't slow down more than absolutely necessary, saving brake wear. I usually find myself using brakes most when I get behind another car, and have successfully caught up with sports cars in my Jeep Liberty on mountain roads on many occasions before.
Finding the apex of a curve is a useful skill. That said, I lost whatever appetite I had for pushing the envelope on curves 20 years ago on a county road when I tried to take a left-hand curve at 55 MPH. The right rear tire blew out and the wheel rim anchored in the pavement, so instead of understeering as designed, the car oversteered and shot forward into the inside of the curve, jumped the ditch, narrowly missed two trees, tore through a barbed wire fence, and finally rolled to a stop in front of a confused cow. The whole thing took probably less than three seconds to happen, and everything from the initial drift off the line to the stop in front of the cow happened so fast I couldn't track it with my eyes. It was like watching a film while someone was violently kicking and shaking the screen.
The curve had a warning sign but no posted advisory speed. I reported the incident to the county public works department and a 30 MPH advisory speed plate was erected about six months later.
It can be argued that our standards for fixing curve advisory speeds are overly conservative. They are certainly comfort-oriented. However, having actually had the experience of running off a curve on a
paved road through excessive speed, I have resolved never to accuse anyone of exercising too much caution on curves.
Geometry is not the only consideration. Some cars do not have curve-holding behavior that is totally predictable at the edge of the envelope. Sometimes a curve on a paved road that is normally capable of sustaining quite high speeds is compromised by spilled oil or the sand and fine gravel that is laid down for traction during winter storms.
While it is all well and good to save pad and clutch material by not gearing down or braking hard for curves, those are not the only wear parts that come into play. Some time after my accident I had to buy four new tires and although I was able to get better than 100,000 miles out of all four, I was later forced to replace two of them for excessive shoulder wear. Toe-in was correct, and the tires had consistently been inflated about 4 PSI above label pressures, so the likeliest cause of the shoulder wear was taking curves at speed.
QuoteWhile it is all well and good to save pad or clutch material by not gearing down or braking hard for curves, those are not the only wear parts that come into play. Some time after my accident I had to buy four new tires and although I was able to get better than 100,000 miles out of all four, I was later forced to replace two of them for excessive shoulder wear. Toe-in was correct, and the tires had consistently been inflated about 4 PSI above label pressures, so the likeliest cause of the shoulder wear was taking curves at speed.
To be fair, I have noticed that I have burned through tires faster than the average bear, and since a substantial portion of my long distance driving involves curve-heavy routes (I fairly routinely drive from Helena, MT to McCall, ID via Lolo Pass), that seems like a plausible explanation.
Quote from: corco on June 12, 2015, 07:38:27 PM
In an automatic, I'll flip overdrive off sometimes or use cruise control to force engine braking (okay, I guess that is weird - but nice tip in an automatic: at least in modern cars without manual gear selection, set your cruise control to slightly less than the speed you want to go and the cruise will force the car to downshift)
This has to be car dependent. My automatic CVT will downshift any time I'm speeding up and neither pedal is depressed. Occasionally this is annoying since if I want to roll down a hill and use the momenum to get up the next one... well, I can't. Car will engine brake on its own, even if it's not in cruise control. Meanwhile, in cruise control or not, it will only downshift itself up to 3000 RPM or so unless I put it in low gear. I've had to interrupt my cruise control to use the brakes on long downgrades because I was speeding up significantly past my cruuse setpoint.
Meanwhile my old Focus had no cruise control, and the six speed automatic would not downshift to engine brake at all unless I put it in low gear - so I could roll down hills all I wanted, but had to be more careful on steep ones. When I drove the downgrade on MA 57 approaching MA 8 in the Focus, there was much fierce braking and I almost didn't manage to stop at the stop sign at the bottom. When I did it in my Sentra it was no sweat since the car engine braked itself the whole way down.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 11, 2015, 03:05:19 AM
Many (but not all) native Coloradans like to complain about flatland tourist drivers, but in so doing the kvetchers forget that Colorado residents are more likely to be familiar with the major mountain passes and to have more opportunities to practice mountain driving. Moreover, much of the stereotypical flatland behavior is actually exhibited by cars with Colorado plates, and inevitably some of it flows from technical limitations rather than driver naïvete.
I have that feeling that this is vaguely directed at my radiator overheating on Loveland Pass... :paranoid:
Downshifting: I've found that I'm more unpredictable in downshifting in my current car than the one I had last year; the difference is that my current car has an automatic column shifter, while my previous car was a floor-shift automatic with an autostick mode. In my previous car, I almost universally used the autostick mode; I used to make it down canyons without needing to use the acceleration pedal and only slight break usage in corners by manipulating the gears in autostick mode. In my current car, not only is the column shifter less ergonomic to use but third gear is a kludge, I have to press a button to disable overdrive/4th which holds the car in 3rd. Frequently, I don't notice the overdrive light/button and shift from 2nd to 4th when I still need to hold the engine back slightly in 3rd.
Curves: CDOT is notorious for underestimating the safe speed in curves that my otherwise conservative driving education instructor outright told the class to expect to be able to go about 5-10 over the posted advisory speed in passenger cars on dry pavement with no precipitation.
Quote from: Zmapper on June 14, 2015, 05:43:28 AMI have that feeling that this is vaguely directed at my radiator overheating on Loveland Pass... :paranoid:
Actually, the parenthetical "not all" was designed to exclude present company. I didn't know before your last post that your car had had problems with temperature control on the climb up to the pass summit.
Quote from: Zmapper on June 14, 2015, 05:43:28 AMDownshifting: I've found that I'm more unpredictable in downshifting in my current car than the one I had last year; the difference is that my current car has an automatic column shifter, while my previous car was a floor-shift automatic with an autostick mode. In my previous car, I almost universally used the autostick mode; I used to make it down canyons without needing to use the acceleration pedal and only slight break usage in corners by manipulating the gears in autostick mode. In my current car, not only is the column shifter less ergonomic to use but third gear is a kludge, I have to press a button to disable overdrive/4th which holds the car in 3rd. Frequently, I don't notice the overdrive light/button and shift from 2nd to 4th when I still need to hold the engine back slightly in 3rd.
Ergonomics does matter. The first mountain driving any member of my immediate family did was in the 1986 Nissan Maxima which used to be the family car but later became my roadtrip car: the setup was similar to the Ford Taurus station wagon you were driving, except that the shifter was floor-mounted and the overdrive cancel button was on the console bin. This made progressive gear reduction a little cumbersome to do, though I believe once I was in 2 or 1 I could bump back up to a higher gear range without depressing the selector button.
I borrowed a 2009 Honda Fit for a Colorado trip when my own car was in the shop receiving long overdue repairs. (I used an insurance settlement from a bad hailstorm in May 2012 to have nonfunctional A/C repaired, a leaky radiator replaced, and brake pads and rotors replaced so that I could drive the car anywhere without worrying about audible brake wear indicators I cannot hear. We couldn't see any value in having hail damage repaired in an ungaraged car then almost 20 years old, and while improved cosmetics would have been nice, we saw the car at that point as a way of avoiding spending money on a newer vehicle.) The Fit had paddle shifters and I usually drive with both hands on the steering wheel, which made it much easier to obtain correctly timed downshifts than with any other car I have driven. However, I didn't have the option of selecting a lower gear with the paddle shifters and then riding in it with foot on the gas unless I moved the floor shifter to S (selective-shift mode). Selective shift in D is a temporary mode the car enters when downshifted with the paddle shifters and exits when the throttle position sensor tells the PCM the throttle is no longer fully closed. Aside from this, the system is pretty foolproof since the PCM will reject input from the paddle shifters that would otherwise put the engine out of the correct rev range for the intended gear.
My Saturn falls between the Maxima and the Fit in convenience. It has no overdrive cancel button, so the floor shifter is all I need to touch, and it can be bumped back up to a higher gear range without a button press. The most irritating limitation is no 1 gear range, but I have been able to live without it so far.
I haven't tried a CVT, either in mountains or on the level, but I suspect a lot of the difficulty in mountains is an indirect consequence of too-easy revving being used to fake absent low-end torque.
Quote from: Zmapper on June 14, 2015, 05:43:28 AMCurves: CDOT is notorious for underestimating the safe speed in curves that my otherwise conservative driving education instructor outright told the class to expect to be able to go about 5-10 over the posted advisory speed in passenger cars on dry pavement with no precipitation.
Yeah, I've long suspected CDOT is conservative like that. But I'll leave the envelope-pushing to others!
I've driven my car through various climates and altitudes over the five years it's been in my possession. I engine brake quite regularly in mountainous terrain and the car having an easy shifter to use without having to labor though a column or floor that you have to press a button to move the stick. I regularly avoid using brakes to descend to keep them from overheating and wearing - though it didn't always succeed ;) .
I had a 2008 Nissan Altima 3.5 with a CVT and the lack of engine braking capabilities is one of the main reasons I got rid of it. I had two close calls in the snow with it last year in NOVA and I should've had more capabilities to slow down than I did. It actually terrified me to drive that car in the snow. I bought a 2012 Mercedes C300 4Matic that's an automatic and it's night and day between it and the Altima. Driving it on the snow this year, I could actually downshift enough (without red lining or going above 3,000 RPMs on the tach) to use no brakes at all and come to a complete stop.
Last weekend I went down a 12% grade gravel road off of Corridor H in my girlfriend's 2010 Ford Explorer with an automatic with no issue. I downshifted in to 1st and coasted most of the way at 10-20 MPH, applying brakes sparingly when needed. I don't think the tach went above 2,250 RPMs. I use to have a 1998 Ford Taurus with an automatic and I went all over the Plains for up to 50 miles at a time on dirt roads at some points and drove in all kinds of winter weather as well with it with no issue.
In terms of taking curves, the best method is to brake going in to the turn and then accelerate when reaching the apex. There are some instances where I've let off on the accelerator just enough to slow down and then accelerated after the apex, but every turn is different and this is the outlier rather than the norm. It's a "feel" thing and braking or accelerating too soon or too fast is bad. I should also note that I don't employ these tactics for daredevil-like speeds.