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Author Topic: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)  (Read 29966 times)

Plutonic Panda

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I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« on: October 28, 2017, 03:29:43 AM »

OkDOT is proposing to reconstruct the I-44/US-75 interchange in Tulsa. The project will also affect I-44 from I-244 to the east side of the Arkansas river bridge. Not sure if that means they will rebuild that bridge. I haven't been on that bridge in a minute so I can't remember if it needs it or not. It will also affect a small stretch of US-75 as well. Hopefully OkDOT will propose all direct connector ramps. I fucking hate cloverleafs with a passion for freeway to freeway interchanges.

Quote
   
Where:
Daniel Webster High School Auditorium
1919 West 40th Street
Tulsa, OK 74107 (Map)
 
    
When:
Thursday, November 2, 2017
Public Meeting format
Presentation at 6 p.m.
 
    
Purpose:
The purpose of the Public Meeting is to inform the public and obtain input on proposed improvements to the I-44 corridor between I-244 and the Arkansas River, including reconstruction of the I-44 & US-75 interchange in Tulsa, Oklahoma. This stretch of highway has a high accident rate, and will not adequately accommodate future traffic volumes. ODOT has reviewed several design options which were evaluated and compiled into a preferred alternative for the corridor.

- https://www.ok.gov/odot/Programs_and_Projects/Public_Meetings_and_Hearings/20171102_I-44.html

Project Limits

« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 04:35:34 AM by Plutonic Panda »
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Scott5114

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2017, 04:59:55 AM »

This interchange is a mess, and honestly this probably should have been done years ago.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2017, 05:15:28 AM »

I’m not too familiar with it only used it a couple of times but from the looks of it just from googla.... uh yeah, it’s time
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sparker

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2017, 07:49:15 PM »



This interchange is a mess, and honestly this probably should have been done years ago.
I’m not too familiar with it only used it a couple of times but from the looks of it just from googla.... uh yeah, it’s time

Unless they're rural, with a relatively low traffic count -- and include C/D lanes on both intersecting routes, with at least 30mph loops -- freeway-to-freeway cloverleaf interchanges are inherently inappropriate.  Unfortunately, to financially strapped DOT's they represent a relatively cheap but usable -- if not optimal -- option (e.g. the nascent I-22/269 interchange in MS). 
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Bobby5280

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2017, 10:12:22 PM »

The I-44/US-75 interchange would be an obvious candidate for Oklahoma's first 4 level, directional stack interchange. Chances are slim to none such an interchange would be built, even though there seems to be dozens of them in Texas and even a few in little Louisiana. The replacement interchange would likely be some partial cloverleaf with maybe one or two directional flyover ramps -like how the 10+ year long project to replace the I-44/I-235 interchange in OKC will end up being built.

Collector-Distributor lanes along US-75 would be nice, and mandatory if the replacement interchange is built as yet another cloverleaf. But will ODOT carve out the extra ROW along US-75 North of the interchange to make that happen?
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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2017, 10:18:56 PM »



This interchange is a mess, and honestly this probably should have been done years ago.
I’m not too familiar with it only used it a couple of times but from the looks of it just from googla.... uh yeah, it’s time

Unless they're rural, with a relatively low traffic count -- and include C/D lanes on both intersecting routes, with at least 30mph loops -- freeway-to-freeway cloverleaf interchanges are inherently inappropriate.  Unfortunately, to financially strapped DOT's they represent a relatively cheap but usable -- if not optimal -- option (e.g. the nascent I-22/269 interchange in MS).

Cloverleafs are the default in Massachusetts. Are you saying all of those are inappropriate?
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sparker

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2017, 01:39:47 AM »



This interchange is a mess, and honestly this probably should have been done years ago.
I’m not too familiar with it only used it a couple of times but from the looks of it just from googla.... uh yeah, it’s time

Unless they're rural, with a relatively low traffic count -- and include C/D lanes on both intersecting routes, with at least 30mph loops -- freeway-to-freeway cloverleaf interchanges are inherently inappropriate.  Unfortunately, to financially strapped DOT's they represent a relatively cheap but usable -- if not optimal -- option (e.g. the nascent I-22/269 interchange in MS).

Cloverleafs are the default in Massachusetts. Are you saying all of those are inappropriate?

Over the years I've used several of the MA cloverleafs, particularly those on I-95/MA 128 (specifically, the US 3 and north I-93 interchanges) -- and those are inappropriate in the sense that they don't handle current traffic loads particularly well, with the resultant congestion.  The addition of C/D lanes would help; rebuilding with direct ramps addressing the higher-level directional movements would be better.  I'm sure there are cloverleaf interchanges with lesser arterial routes within the state that are quite adequate for their purposes; but those at major route intersections such as those cited above really need to be addressed with an eye toward reconstruction; they, IMHO, are inappropriate.   Obviously, the DOT is at least partially in agreement with me, as they're rebuilding the south I-95/93 (128) interchange, which was an uncompleted cloverleaf, as a directional interchange (even though it'll still be a bi-directional TOTSO!).  At least it'll be a vast improvement over the previous cloverleaf-format arrangement!

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bugo

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2017, 03:03:53 PM »

I-44 WB backs up at US 75 all the time, sometimes during non-rush times. A ramp from 44 west to 75 south desperately needs to be built. Rebuilding it as a cloverleaf won't do much good.
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rte66man

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2017, 05:42:46 PM »

You can leave comments at:

http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/meetings/a2017/171102/CommentForm.pdf

I asked why they ignored a full 4-level stack by retaining a single loop.  Can't see the reason for that.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2017, 06:33:37 PM »

I was going to post the schematics. Fucking stupid it’s only a 3 stack. Not one four stack in the entire state. I’m sure their reason will be costs.
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Bobby5280

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2017, 07:40:22 PM »

Do the schematics at least include stubs to reserve the possibility of adding a fourth direct connector flyover ramp some point in the future? Most partial stacks in Texas at least have stubs to add future flyover ramps later. Even in Wichita Falls near the end of I-44 the interchange with Kell Freeway and US-287 has stubs for the interchange to be converted into a full stack interchange if the need developed for it.
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Bobby5280

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2017, 12:03:30 PM »

As far as this topic goes I really won't give a dry fart about ghost ramps on a former service plaza. It doesn't have a damned thing to do about the ramp design of a freeway to freeway interchange and the question I posed about it. Might as well bring up sidewalks or even more bizarrely off-topics things psoriasis medication, favorite brand of pizza, etc.

ODOT is already goofing up to some degree by not designing this interchange as a 4-level stack interchange with 4 direct connect flyover ramps. They're obviously trying to save money by proposing only 3 direct connect flyovers and one cloverleaf loop. Eventually they'll need to replace that cheap loop with a 4th flyover. If they design the ramps with stubs for the missing flyover section it will be less expensive to add the 4th flyover later. If they don't add the stubs then it may be cost prohibitive to add the 4th flyover later, basically making the currently proposed design permanent.
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compdude787

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2017, 11:10:07 PM »


ODOT is already goofing up to some degree by not designing this interchange as a 4-level stack interchange with 4 direct connect flyover ramps. They're obviously trying to save money by proposing only 3 direct connect flyovers and one cloverleaf loop. Eventually they'll need to replace that cheap loop with a 4th flyover. If they design the ramps with stubs for the missing flyover section it will be less expensive to add the 4th flyover later. If they don't add the stubs then it may be cost prohibitive to add the 4th flyover later, basically making the currently proposed design permanent.

Not sure why it is a big issue to have a loop ramp in there instead of a flyover. That ramp goes from EB I-44 to NB US 75, a movement that is already duplicated by I-244 heading into Tulsa and merging in with US 75 just two miles away. Only local traffic exiting US 75 at 41st Street would be using the loop ramp, so building it as a flyover is really not worth the expense. I can totally understand why ODOT chose not to make it a full stack interchange.

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2017, 11:11:21 PM »

That was my thought as well.

rte66man

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2017, 09:51:33 PM »


ODOT is already goofing up to some degree by not designing this interchange as a 4-level stack interchange with 4 direct connect flyover ramps. They're obviously trying to save money by proposing only 3 direct connect flyovers and one cloverleaf loop. Eventually they'll need to replace that cheap loop with a 4th flyover. If they design the ramps with stubs for the missing flyover section it will be less expensive to add the 4th flyover later. If they don't add the stubs then it may be cost prohibitive to add the 4th flyover later, basically making the currently proposed design permanent.

Not sure why it is a big issue to have a loop ramp in there instead of a flyover. That ramp goes from EB I-44 to NB US 75, a movement that is already duplicated by I-244 heading into Tulsa and merging in with US 75 just two miles away. Only local traffic exiting US 75 at 41st Street would be using the loop ramp, so building it as a flyover is really not worth the expense. I can totally understand why ODOT chose not to make it a full stack interchange.

There is a surprising amount of local traffic entering EB 44 at Union Avenue that use that ramp to head downtown.  Either way, loop ramps, especially ones as tight as the one in the schematic, cause merging problems as it is impossible to get up to the speed of the mainline traffic. 
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2017, 10:43:01 PM »

Let’s also not forget that with current plans this won’t be built for another decade or more. OkDOT desperately needs funding. This shit should be starting next year!
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2017, 08:06:00 PM »

Here are the renderings and schematics

Renderings of the interchange:





I-44 plans:



US-75 plans:





https://www.ok.gov/odot/Programs_and_Projects/Public_Meetings_and_Hearings/20171102_I-44.html
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Bobby5280

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2017, 09:02:51 PM »

That's a really odd looking interchange configuration. The biggest flyover ramp (WB I-44 to SB US-75) is like one part of a pinwheel interchange, circling around the outer edge of the interchange. The two flyovers going over the center of the interchange are like parts of a normal stack interchange. And then there's that odd loop. The way the ramps are configured it will be impossible to replace that itty bitty cloverleaf loop with a directional flyover, at least not without making such a ramp really long and really tall.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2017, 09:41:29 PM »

Yeah the geometric design is really weird. It just looks strange.
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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2017, 07:46:33 PM »

That's a really odd looking interchange configuration. The biggest flyover ramp (WB I-44 to SB US-75) is like one part of a pinwheel interchange, circling around the outer edge of the interchange. The two flyovers going over the center of the interchange are like parts of a normal stack interchange. And then there's that odd loop. The way the ramps are configured it will be impossible to replace that itty bitty cloverleaf loop with a directional flyover, at least not without making such a ramp really long and really tall.
Yeah the geometric design is really weird. It just looks strange.

It looks like they're trying to cut costs with the SB>EB and NB>WB direct connectors by keeping the curve radius as tight as possible.  Obviously, their engineering staff assumes that the WB 44 to SB 75 movement traffic levels will warrant a higher-speed connection -- thus the larger-radius multilane flyover.  And, again, their calculations regarding the proximity of the I-244 diagonal connection less than 2 miles away is figuring into their decision to retain the EB>NB loop; it's likely that the NB>WB movement was given a direct ramp because less locals would tend to use the Creek Turnpike connector a few miles south simply because it was tolled.  My guess is that ODOT is simply trying to economize wherever possible -- but in doing so have more or less tied their hands regarding future modification without taking much of the adjoining properties to do so.   
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2018, 02:01:57 AM »

This project was awarded a grant of over 45 million dollars or so from Trump’s Infrastructure funding. Says project could break ground in 2020! Here’s to hoping that happens!  :cheers:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/feds-announce-million-grant-to-replace-crumbling-i--bridges/article_6119fbb7-cfc4-5ee6-a785-1b80394a94f4.html
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johndoe

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2018, 03:42:00 PM »

So they provide two lanes on the WB to SB ramp presumably because it's busiest...but...
it merges to a single lane before reaching US-75.  So who is going to use that 2nd lane on that expensive bridge?

Edit: this images came from the previously linked page: https://www.ok.gov/odot/Programs_and_Projects/Public_Meetings_and_Hearings/20171102_I-44.html
see the "US-75 display board"
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 06:17:39 PM by johndoe »
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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2018, 07:04:17 PM »

Having viewed the detailed plans I don't see what the fuss and moaning is all about. The proposed layout is far superior to what's currently there. Retaining one loop removes all weaving. Hey, you could have two loops if they are on opposite sides of the junction and still have no weaving. Money is tight so be glad you're getting something which allows all movements to be freeflowing. Lots of planned interchanges here are getting roundabouts instead of direct ramps.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2018, 08:53:41 PM »

So they provide two lanes on the WB to SB ramp presumably because it's busiest...but...
it merges to a single lane before reaching US-75.  So who is going to use that 2nd lane on that expensive bridge?

Edit: this images came from the previously linked page: https://www.ok.gov/odot/Programs_and_Projects/Public_Meetings_and_Hearings/20171102_I-44.html
see the "US-75 display board"
My guess would be OkDOT just being cheap and having the second lane to have more capacity on the ramp for queuing to prevent traffic backing up onto I-44. Cheap solutio and doesn’t really address backups rather than moves where it will happen. Good for I-44 through drivers I guess.

I do know they plan on 8 laning US-75 but that won’t do much for the ramp situation as it’s still a bottleneck. Maybe when that time comes around they could modify the ramp, but I doubt they do that. I still think this ramp needs to be a four stack interchange regardless whether a direct connect is warranted. Texas would done this long ago.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: I-44/US-75 Interchange Reconstruction(Tulsa)
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2018, 01:30:19 AM »

Induced demand is a flawed notion and completely false 99% of the time. I don’t don’t take into account things like that.

I don’t get how build an additional flyover to make this a four stack would result in additional weaving.
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