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Non-MUTCD-compliant W1/2 turn/curve warning signs?

Started by TheGrassGuy, January 17, 2020, 06:52:15 PM

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jeffandnicole

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on January 19, 2020, 09:43:38 PM
I wonder how common signs like these are outside of NJ. From what I've seen, not so much actually.

The signs you speak of will normally be located on back roads.  When people travel, they're generally on main roadways and highways. Unless your travels take you on back roads, which is generally unusual unless it's from the highway to your destination, you're probably not going to see them.


TheGrassGuy

Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 20, 2020, 04:59:47 PM
Quote from: TheGrassGuy on January 19, 2020, 09:43:38 PM
I wonder how common signs like these are outside of NJ. From what I've seen, not so much actually.

The signs you speak of will normally be located on back roads.  When people travel, they're generally on main roadways and highways. Unless your travels take you on back roads, which is generally unusual unless it's from the highway to your destination, you're probably not going to see them.
Not necessarily. I can't link this because I'm on mobile right now, but on US-206 in Peapack-Gladstone, there's a pair of intersection signs for Old Dutch Rd and Deer Haven Rd that resembles the Orthodox Church symbol.
If you ever feel useless, remember that CR 504 exists.

roadman

Quote from: US71 on January 17, 2020, 08:54:26 PM
Quote from: TheGrassGuy on January 17, 2020, 08:47:56 PM
Quote from: US71 on January 17, 2020, 07:52:51 PM
Arkansas does those, too.
Examples please?

Only one I have handy is


But a side road on a curve is common.


Variation on a W1-10.  My only comment is that the side road should be thinner than the mainline, but other than that I see no problem.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

US71

Quote from: roadman on January 21, 2020, 10:27:03 AM
Quote from: US71 on January 17, 2020, 08:54:26 PM
Quote from: TheGrassGuy on January 17, 2020, 08:47:56 PM
Quote from: US71 on January 17, 2020, 07:52:51 PM
Arkansas does those, too.
Examples please?

Only one I have handy is


But a side road on a curve is common.


Variation on a W1-10.  My only comment is that the side road should be thinner than the mainline, but other than that I see no problem.

ARDOT quit using the thin line vs thick variants several years ago.
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

TheGrassGuy

There's also a really bizarre one in Flanders NJ
If you ever feel useless, remember that CR 504 exists.

kphoger

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on January 20, 2020, 06:14:54 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 20, 2020, 04:59:47 PM

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on January 19, 2020, 09:43:38 PM
I wonder how common signs like these are outside of NJ. From what I've seen, not so much actually.

The signs you speak of will normally be located on back roads.  When people travel, they're generally on main roadways and highways. Unless your travels take you on back roads, which is generally unusual unless it's from the highway to your destination, you're probably not going to see them.

Not necessarily. I can't link this because I'm on mobile right now, but on US-206 in Peapack-Gladstone, there's a pair of intersection signs for Old Dutch Rd and Deer Haven Rd that resembles the Orthodox Church symbol.

GSV here.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

TheGrassGuy

Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2020, 01:34:57 PM
Quote from: TheGrassGuy on January 20, 2020, 06:14:54 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 20, 2020, 04:59:47 PM

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on January 19, 2020, 09:43:38 PM
I wonder how common signs like these are outside of NJ. From what I've seen, not so much actually.

The signs you speak of will normally be located on back roads.  When people travel, they're generally on main roadways and highways. Unless your travels take you on back roads, which is generally unusual unless it's from the highway to your destination, you're probably not going to see them.

Not necessarily. I can't link this because I'm on mobile right now, but on US-206 in Peapack-Gladstone, there's a pair of intersection signs for Old Dutch Rd and Deer Haven Rd that resembles the Orthodox Church symbol.

GSV here.
Thanks.
If you ever feel useless, remember that CR 504 exists.

briantroutman

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on January 19, 2020, 09:43:38 PM
I wonder how common signs like these are outside of NJ. From what I've seen, not so much actually.

In Pennsylvania, I've encountered numerous of these nonstandard curve warning signs–which, in my experience, are usually standard curve signs with appendages added to the arrow representing side roads.

Just off the top of my head, here's one I used to encounter daily: https://goo.gl/maps/qmUCwD2EhSnkyx8o7
And nearby in the opposing direction: https://goo.gl/maps/najptDuaxsTuvwxZ7
Farther down the same road: https://goo.gl/maps/j4CE5pLqFvtZ7fZw6
One I recall from childhood: https://goo.gl/maps/GST7KZj3vQsyWxQD8

I'm sure I could come up with a very long list of PA examples if I had the time and inclination.

And there's also this one (location unknown) that I saw in an old FHWA video on FedFlix and posted to the "Unique, Odd, or Interesting"  thread a few years ago:

kphoger

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

roadfro

Quote from: roadman on January 21, 2020, 10:27:03 AM
Quote from: US71 on January 17, 2020, 08:54:26 PM
Quote from: TheGrassGuy on January 17, 2020, 08:47:56 PM
Quote from: US71 on January 17, 2020, 07:52:51 PM
Arkansas does those, too.
Examples please?

Only one I have handy is


But a side road on a curve is common.


Variation on a W1-10.  My only comment is that the side road should be thinner than the mainline, but other than that I see no problem.

The main road should have an arrowhead as well, to make it more MUTCD kosher and blatantly obvious that the traffic viewing the sign has the curve
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

TheGrassGuy

Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2020, 01:34:57 PM
Quote from: TheGrassGuy on January 20, 2020, 06:14:54 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 20, 2020, 04:59:47 PM

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on January 19, 2020, 09:43:38 PM
I wonder how common signs like these are outside of NJ. From what I've seen, not so much actually.

The signs you speak of will normally be located on back roads.  When people travel, they're generally on main roadways and highways. Unless your travels take you on back roads, which is generally unusual unless it's from the highway to your destination, you're probably not going to see them.

Not necessarily. I can't link this because I'm on mobile right now, but on US-206 in Peapack-Gladstone, there's a pair of intersection signs for Old Dutch Rd and Deer Haven Rd that resembles the Orthodox Church symbol.

GSV here.
Going the other direction.
If you ever feel useless, remember that CR 504 exists.

TheGrassGuy

If you ever feel useless, remember that CR 504 exists.

TheGrassGuy

If you ever feel useless, remember that CR 504 exists.

TheGrassGuy

If you ever feel useless, remember that CR 504 exists.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: roadfro on January 22, 2020, 11:12:07 AM
Quote from: roadman on January 21, 2020, 10:27:03 AM
Quote from: US71 on January 17, 2020, 08:54:26 PM
Quote from: TheGrassGuy on January 17, 2020, 08:47:56 PM
Quote from: US71 on January 17, 2020, 07:52:51 PM
Arkansas does those, too.
Examples please?

Only one I have handy is


But a side road on a curve is common.


Variation on a W1-10.  My only comment is that the side road should be thinner than the mainline, but other than that I see no problem.

The main road should have an arrowhead as well, to make it more MUTCD kosher and blatantly obvious that the traffic viewing the sign has the curve

Negative. The MUTCD not only doesn't specify arrows, their diamond warning sign examples don't show arrows either (other than for a roundabout).  https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/fig2c_09_longdesc.htm


TheGrassGuy

Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 23, 2020, 07:50:05 AM
Quote from: roadfro on January 22, 2020, 11:12:07 AM
Quote from: roadman on January 21, 2020, 10:27:03 AM
Quote from: US71 on January 17, 2020, 08:54:26 PM
Quote from: TheGrassGuy on January 17, 2020, 08:47:56 PM
Quote from: US71 on January 17, 2020, 07:52:51 PM
Arkansas does those, too.
Examples please?

Only one I have handy is


But a side road on a curve is common.


Variation on a W1-10.  My only comment is that the side road should be thinner than the mainline, but other than that I see no problem.

The main road should have an arrowhead as well, to make it more MUTCD kosher and blatantly obvious that the traffic viewing the sign has the curve

Negative. The MUTCD not only doesn't specify arrows, their diamond warning sign examples don't show arrows either (other than for a roundabout).  https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/fig2c_09_longdesc.htm
...unless there's a curve involved. See W2.
If you ever feel useless, remember that CR 504 exists.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on January 23, 2020, 07:53:11 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 23, 2020, 07:50:05 AM
Quote from: roadfro on January 22, 2020, 11:12:07 AM
Quote from: roadman on January 21, 2020, 10:27:03 AM
Quote from: US71 on January 17, 2020, 08:54:26 PM
Quote from: TheGrassGuy on January 17, 2020, 08:47:56 PM
Quote from: US71 on January 17, 2020, 07:52:51 PM
Arkansas does those, too.
Examples please?

Only one I have handy is


But a side road on a curve is common.


Variation on a W1-10.  My only comment is that the side road should be thinner than the mainline, but other than that I see no problem.

The main road should have an arrowhead as well, to make it more MUTCD kosher and blatantly obvious that the traffic viewing the sign has the curve

Negative. The MUTCD not only doesn't specify arrows, their diamond warning sign examples don't show arrows either (other than for a roundabout).  https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/fig2c_09_longdesc.htm
...unless there's a curve involved. See W2.

Ah yes.  Seems like the "intersection" signs don't use arrows, where as curved signs do.  Except Intersections are involved with curved signs as well.  So like what I found on my search, it pointed me to the intersection signs, not the curved signs.


TheGrassGuy

If you ever feel useless, remember that CR 504 exists.

TheGrassGuy

In case none of you have noticed, they added a LOT of new 5th-gen imagery to GSV. Like, US-301 TOLL in Delaware has street view now. In my case, that means that the street view in remote northern counties such as Hunterdon and Sussex is much more up to date.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6834785,-74.8368353,3a,33.9y,287.63h,93.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soQJFjCCsGgVkaVkUMRVczg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
If you ever feel useless, remember that CR 504 exists.

TheGrassGuy

If you ever feel useless, remember that CR 504 exists.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on March 16, 2021, 09:03:31 AM
Found another!
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.965152,-75.7050919,3a,43.7y,110.48h,91.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBHSSEFGYYk1tiAHbIVr6tQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Back to this again?  The sign is compliant. The MUTCD is a guide, not a bible, and signs need to vary based on what exists.  If the sign was on a white background, or a octagon, then it wouldn't be compliant.

kphoger

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 16, 2021, 09:13:30 AM

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on March 16, 2021, 09:03:31 AM
Found another!
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.965152,-75.7050919,3a,43.7y,110.48h,91.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBHSSEFGYYk1tiAHbIVr6tQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Back to this again?  The sign is compliant. The MUTCD is a guide, not a bible, and signs need to vary based on what exists.  If the sign was on a white background, or a octagon, then it wouldn't be compliant.

That sign isn't even non-MUTCD-compliant anyway.  The MUTCD specifically allows up to two side roads to be indicated.

Quote from: MUTCD – 2009 edition
Section 2C.11 – Combination Horizontal Alignment/Intersection Signs (W1-10 Series)

Option:
   01   The Turn (W1-1) sign or the Curve (W1-2) sign may be combined with the Cross Road (W2-1) sign or the Side Road (W2-2 or W2-3) sign to create a combination Horizontal Alignment/Intersection (W1-10 series) sign (see Figure 2C-1) that depicts the condition where an intersection occurs within or immediately adjacent to a turn or curve.

Guidance:
   02   Elements of the combination Horizontal Alignment/Intersection sign related to horizontal alignment should comply with the provisions of Section 2C.07, and elements related to intersection configuration should comply with the provisions of Section 2C.46. The symbol design should approximate the configuration of the intersecting roadway(s). No more than one Cross Road or two Side Road symbols should be displayed on any one combination Horizontal Alignment/Intersection sign.

Standard:
   03   The use of the combination Horizontal Alignment/Intersection sign shall be in accordance with the appropriate Turn or Curve sign information shown in Table 2C-5.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

US71

Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

CoreySamson

Buc-ee's and QuikTrip fanboy. Clincher of FM roads. Proponent of the TX U-turn.

My Route Log
My Clinches

Now on mobrule and Travel Mapping!



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