News:

Thank you for your patience during the Forum downtime while we upgraded the software. Welcome back and see this thread for some new features and other changes to the forum.

Main Menu

Ft Worth TX: 133-Vehicle Accident on Icy Bridge in I-35W Toll Lanes

Started by Brian556, February 12, 2021, 12:12:25 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Brian556

133 vehicles involved, 6 deaths. When something like this happens, there are usually multiple factors, as there were here. The accident started after a humped bridge over the railroad south of SH 183, so approaching drivers probably couldn't see the accident in time. I am wondering if this was the first icy bridge they encountered southbound since this was around the beginning of the area that got the freezing drizzle. Freezing drizzle showers were spotty and didn't hit all area equally, but they were generally southeast of a lime from Saginaw to Lewisville to McKinney. The drivers were all going around 70 MPH as they approached the accident, so they weren't being carful, even though the threat of freezing drizzle and rain was well advertised. Shows how clueless people really are. The accident happened in the toll lanes, which are maintained by North Texas Express, according to FOX4. There are several videos on Facebook of the accident happening. Police are conducting an investigation.

News Report: https://www.fox4news.com/news/multiple-injuries-from-icy-wreck-on-i-35w-in-fort-worth-involving-50-plus-vehicles
GSV showing poor sight distance: https://www.fox4news.com/news/multiple-injuries-from-icy-wreck-on-i-35w-in-fort-worth-involving-50-plus-vehicles


froggie

I pulled up the weather observations from Meacham Airport (KFTW), about 3 miles northwest of the crash site.  They reported light freezing rain for only about 35 minutes, from approximately 1:35am until 2:10am.  This was approximately 4 hours before the crashes began accumulating.  But I know from personal experience (climatologically, Vermont is one of the most prone areas of the nation to freezing rain) that it doesn't take much to gum up the roads.  And this is in a state with a mere fraction of the volume of traffic as the DFW metroplex.

Scott5114

Kind of sucks that it happened in the toll lanes, since there's a Jersey barrier on either side, so there's not really anywhere you can dodge to in order to avoid a collision...
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

TXtoNJ

Texas and it's stupid-ass preference for freeway humps over roads finally caught up with it. TxDOT better take a long, hard look at its design policies.

motorola870

Quote from: TXtoNJ on February 12, 2021, 01:30:56 AM
Texas and it's stupid-ass preference for freeway humps over roads finally caught up with it. TxDOT better take a long, hard look at its design policies.
Here is my question what can they do prevent this from happening again? Maybe make the Express lanes for non-commercial vehicles? Make gates closing the express lanes in inclement weather? Reduce speed limit? There had already been chatter by many locals the lanes do not have safe design standards and can lead to chain reactions and you have nowhere to get off the road from the texpress lanes.

kernals12

Nothing short of heating coils on all our highways will protect us from black ice.

TXtoNJ

Quote from: motorola870 on February 12, 2021, 03:23:16 AM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on February 12, 2021, 01:30:56 AM
Texas and it's stupid-ass preference for freeway humps over roads finally caught up with it. TxDOT better take a long, hard look at its design policies.
Here is my question what can they do prevent this from happening again? Maybe make the Express lanes for non-commercial vehicles? Make gates closing the express lanes in inclement weather? Reduce speed limit? There had already been chatter by many locals the lanes do not have safe design standards and can lead to chain reactions and you have nowhere to get off the road from the texpress lanes.

Well, supposedly TEXpress skimped on the sanding/salting/brining, clearly for cost reductions(hooray "free market"), so fixing that might be a good start.

edwaleni

I don't think blaming TxDOT is going to solve it, nor engineering some major system.

I have driven in many, many situations where the conditions declined so rapidly and in such a small area, that there is no system that could have stopped any of them.

In one situation in Ohio I got an anti-skid warning just before I exited and as I came around and under the bridge where I got the warning, 3 cars had already wiped out and the pile up was just beginning. It happens that fast at times.

So at times it not always the road either, the quality of the anti-skid system in the vehicle can make a difference.

In this circumstance in Ft Worth, anti-skid or anti-lock wouldn't have stopped you. There was a total loss of traction over several hundred yards which made these systems ineffective. Only chains or studs would have helped you and the rest of the road didn't require them.

In Oklahoma, I once drove through a thunderstorm when it was 24 degrees outside. It wreaked havoc as all the cars and trucks windshields all fogged over at the same time. Warm raindrops hitting cold windshields fogs them over faster than your defroster can keep up.

I ended up rolling the window down to see. But not everyone was so quick and ended up in the median.

Henry

That has to be the record for most vehicles involved in a single accident, right? If it is, then we should call Guinness and report it to them.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

kernals12

Quote from: Henry on February 12, 2021, 10:54:23 AM
That has to be the record for most vehicles involved in a single accident, right? If it is, then we should call Guinness and report it to them.
Nope, not even in the top 10. , in September 2011, there was a 300 car pileup in Brazil.


motorola870

Quote from: edwaleni on February 12, 2021, 10:19:14 AM
I don't think blaming TxDOT is going to solve it, nor engineering some major system.

I have driven in many, many situations where the conditions declined so rapidly and in such a small area, that there is no system that could have stopped any of them.

In one situation in Ohio I got an anti-skid warning just before I exited and as I came around and under the bridge where I got the warning, 3 cars had already wiped out and the pile up was just beginning. It happens that fast at times.

So at times it not always the road either, the quality of the anti-skid system in the vehicle can make a difference.

In this circumstance in Ft Worth, anti-skid or anti-lock wouldn't have stopped you. There was a total loss of traction over several hundred yards which made these systems ineffective. Only chains or studs would have helped you and the rest of the road didn't require them.

In Oklahoma, I once drove through a thunderstorm when it was 24 degrees outside. It wreaked havoc as all the cars and trucks windshields all fogged over at the same time. Warm raindrops hitting cold windshields fogs them over faster than your defroster can keep up.

I ended up rolling the window down to see. But not everyone was so quick and ended up in the median.
Closing the lanes with gates would help with this. They already have it for the I30 Texpress lanes between Arlington and Dallas. Also a lot of complaints about 18 wheelers being in the lanes impeding the flow of traffic as well in normal conditions. At this point banning 18 wheelers would be a smart move. Looking at the videos the 18 wheels compounded the wrecked cars. There needs to be standard operating procedures  corrections.

TXtoNJ

Quote from: edwaleni on February 12, 2021, 10:19:14 AM
I don't think blaming TxDOT is going to solve it, nor engineering some major system.

I have driven in many, many situations where the conditions declined so rapidly and in such a small area, that there is no system that could have stopped any of them.

In one situation in Ohio I got an anti-skid warning just before I exited and as I came around and under the bridge where I got the warning, 3 cars had already wiped out and the pile up was just beginning. It happens that fast at times.

So at times it not always the road either, the quality of the anti-skid system in the vehicle can make a difference.

In this circumstance in Ft Worth, anti-skid or anti-lock wouldn't have stopped you. There was a total loss of traction over several hundred yards which made these systems ineffective. Only chains or studs would have helped you and the rest of the road didn't require them.

In Oklahoma, I once drove through a thunderstorm when it was 24 degrees outside. It wreaked havoc as all the cars and trucks windshields all fogged over at the same time. Warm raindrops hitting cold windshields fogs them over faster than your defroster can keep up.

I ended up rolling the window down to see. But not everyone was so quick and ended up in the median.

They absolutely have blame to share here. The accident happened because of a typical Texas "camelhump"  situation, where there was a quick transition from bridge to grade to bridge, specifically done to reduce cost at the sacrifice of safety in adverse conditions.

J N Winkler

I have watched traffic camera video of pileups and have seen how they can be seeded by just one or two vehicles wiping out in the traveled way, with involvement building up to over a hundred vehicles within a matter of minutes.  YouTube has video of a February 2018 incident on I-35 near Ames, Iowa that is pretty classic--the first couple of vehicles wiped out due to loss of traction (ambient temperature was dropping), and that was all it took, in an area where drivers are accustomed to winter road conditions and with no structure involvement.  (There were multiple injuries in this accident, but the lone fatality was a motorcoach driver who had a heart attack.)

In the Fort Worth incident, I tend to doubt the following will be fingered as proximate causes:

Roadway on structure--This would seem to have been necessary to cross a railroad line and low-lying ground while maintaining good forward visibility.

Barriers cutting off escape routes--It could be argued that the barriers actually helped, by keeping the pileup from overspilling into the general-purpose lanes.

Not sanding and salting immediately before the crash--I'm not sure this would have helped since the precipitation was falling as rain, which washes off salt.

I wonder if outfitting the express lanes with variable speed limits and lowering the limit for adverse weather conditions would mitigate risk.  I can see this being opposed by the express lane operator because of the associated costs of installation and operation, the prospect of poor compliance, and the repercussions for the pricing model.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Sani

Quote from: J N Winkler on February 12, 2021, 02:32:49 PM
I have watched traffic camera video of pileups and have seen how they can be seeded by just one or two vehicles wiping out in the traveled way, with involvement building up to over a hundred vehicles within a matter of minutes.  YouTube has video of a February 2018 incident on I-35 near Ames, Iowa that is pretty classic--the first couple of vehicles wiped out due to loss of traction (ambient temperature was dropping), and that was all it took, in an area where drivers are accustomed to winter road conditions and with no structure involvement.  (There were multiple injuries in this accident, but the lone fatality was a motorcoach driver who had a heart attack.)

In the Fort Worth incident, I tend to doubt the following will be fingered as proximate causes:

Roadway on structure--This would seem to have been necessary to cross a railroad line and low-lying ground while maintaining good forward visibility.

Barriers cutting off escape routes--It could be argued that the barriers actually helped, by keeping the pileup from overspilling into the general-purpose lanes.

Not sanding and salting immediately before the crash--I'm not sure this would have helped since the precipitation was falling as rain, which washes off salt.

I wonder if outfitting the express lanes with variable speed limits and lowering the limit for adverse weather conditions would mitigate risk.  I can see this being opposed by the express lane operator because of the associated costs of installation and operation, the prospect of poor compliance, and the repercussions for the pricing model.
I noticed on Google Maps that the speed limit for the toll lanes is posted at 75 mph just before the location of the crash. The videos show the semis approaching the pile of stopped cars at highway speeds. Now, maybe the drivers thought going 60 in a 75 meant they had slowed enough to be prudent, but clearly, that was still far too fast for the roadway conditions and visibility of traffic ahead of them due to the geometry of the road.

I have to think a lot of this boils down to excessive speed for the conditions. The videos show one semi scraping itself against the left jersey barrier, sparks flying, in a futile attempt to slow down before the impact. The FedEx semi struck a Toyota FJ Cruiser with enough force to drive it under a full-sized pickup truck and launch that truck end-over-end. Traffic may have had the chance to stop had it been moving 30 or 40 mph, or at least the damages and injuries wouldn't be nearly as severe.

jakeroot

Quote from: J N Winkler on February 12, 2021, 02:32:49 PM
I wonder if outfitting the express lanes with variable speed limits and lowering the limit for adverse weather conditions would mitigate risk.  I can see this being opposed by the express lane operator because of the associated costs of installation and operation, the prospect of poor compliance, and the repercussions for the pricing model.

Variable speed limits would be an excellent inclusion for the express lanes in Texas. I think they are posted at 75, which seems too high as a permanent, non-lowerable limit. 75 is likely acceptable most of the time, but certainly not all the time.

At the very least, variable limit signs (like those used by WSDOT) can display lane closed signs; this would have been helpful for traffic yesterday, as displaying multiple "X" symbols over the express lanes with accompanying VMS sign messaging (perhaps "incident ahead, prepare to stop") might have reduced the number of vehicles involved.

jakeroot

Quote from: Sani on February 12, 2021, 02:48:10 PM
I have to think a lot of this boils down to excessive speed for the conditions. The videos show one semi scraping itself against the left jersey barrier, sparks flying, in a futile attempt to slow down before the impact. The FedEx semi struck a Toyota FJ Cruiser with enough force to drive it under a full-sized pickup truck and launch that truck end-over-end. Traffic may have had the chance to stop had it been moving 30 or 40 mph, or at least the damages and injuries wouldn't be nearly as severe.

That particular crash (the semi hitting that Toyota) was one of the more haunting images from the whole incident. I mean, those cars were just demolished.

More alarming to me, from the scene, was (A) that trucks are allowed in the express lanes (such is forbidden here in WA), and (B) the speed trucks were going before crashing.

edwaleni

Here is the famous Wyoming I-80 pileup. Speed of the trucks in the conditions clearly played a role. Investigations found that many of the truck drivers were following each other with their stereos blasting not really looking ahead or watching the conditions closely.



Many died in this event.

Here is a walk through of the consequences.


Brian556

The roadway agency reported application of brine prior to this event, possibly as early as Tuesday. Emergency responders reported no sand. Looks like they applied brine, and, thinking it would be enough, did not sand.

And, of course, the drivers were all going way too fast. As a weather and road enthusiast, it is unfathomable to me how clueless and negligent most drivers are. Of course many of us say drivers need to be re-educated, and after this, I'd say they need to add "It is the responsibility of the drivers to be aware of weather conditions, and make necessary adjustments to driving based on weather information".

r15-1

Quote from: Brian556 on February 13, 2021, 12:05:42 AM
The roadway agency reported application of brine prior to this event, possibly as early as Tuesday. Emergency responders reported no sand. Looks like they applied brine, and, thinking it would be enough, did not sand.

And, of course, the drivers were all going way too fast. As a weather and road enthusiast, it is unfathomable to me how clueless and negligent most drivers are. Of course many of us say drivers need to be re-educated, and after this, I'd say they need to add "It is the responsibility of the drivers to be aware of weather conditions, and make necessary adjustments to driving based on weather information".
From the reports I have heard, the toll express lanes were treated with brine on Tuesday during the day about 36 hours before the pileup. I believe TXDOT treated the non-toll lanes both Tuesday and Wednesday. They were slippery in that area at the time of the accident but not as bad as the toll express lanes.

Excessive speed for the conditions, lack of timely road treatment, highway design, and commercial vehicle traffic on those toll express lanes were all contributing factors. Adding variable speed limit signs and other warning signage by itself probably wouldn't have eliminated the hazard. Lucky the death toll wasn't much higher given the circumstances.

Scott5114

Quote from: jakeroot on February 12, 2021, 03:06:07 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 12, 2021, 02:32:49 PM
I wonder if outfitting the express lanes with variable speed limits and lowering the limit for adverse weather conditions would mitigate risk.  I can see this being opposed by the express lane operator because of the associated costs of installation and operation, the prospect of poor compliance, and the repercussions for the pricing model.

Variable speed limits would be an excellent inclusion for the express lanes in Texas. I think they are posted at 75, which seems too high as a permanent, non-lowerable limit. 75 is likely acceptable most of the time, but certainly not all the time.

At the very least, variable limit signs (like those used by WSDOT) can display lane closed signs; this would have been helpful for traffic yesterday, as displaying multiple "X" symbols over the express lanes with accompanying VMS sign messaging (perhaps "incident ahead, prepare to stop") might have reduced the number of vehicles involved.

It's Texas. I'm not sure that a digital sign would be enough to cure the bravado of Texas drivers, especially in the DFW area which, unlike the parts of the state north and west, generally doesn't experience slick conditions with anywhere near the regularity that would cause drivers to get an intuitive understanding of icy conditions being a big deal.

Quote from: J N Winkler on February 12, 2021, 02:32:49 PM
In the Fort Worth incident, I tend to doubt the following will be fingered as proximate causes:
Barriers cutting off escape routes--It could be argued that the barriers actually helped, by keeping the pileup from overspilling into the general-purpose lanes.

It may not be factored in as an official contributing factor (if for no other reason than how common dual Jersey barrier designs are in Texas, and the amount of money it would take to convert them to anything else). However, it's hard to ignore them as someone who is not writing an official statement on the accident. It's not hard to imagine a driver in the situation of having successfully stopped before collision or only struck a glancing blow, but thanks to the barriers has no way to leave the scene before getting struck themselves by other vehicles that were not so lucky.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

RoadWarrior56

I-35W seems to be bad luck for roadway disasters, whether in Texas or Minnesota.  It was the I-35W bridge that collapsed over the Mississippi River in Minneapolis about a decade ago.  If I were traveling through either place on I-35, I might consider taking I-35E.

hotdogPi

Quote from: RoadWarrior56 on February 13, 2021, 08:34:18 AM
I-35W seems to be bad luck for roadway disasters, whether in Texas or Minnesota.  It was the I-35W bridge that collapsed over the Mississippi River in Minneapolis about a decade ago.  If I were traveling through either place on I-35, I might consider taking I-35E.

Solution: Get rid of lettered suffixes.
Clinched

Traveled, plus
US 13, 44, 50
MA 22, 40, 107, 109, 117, 119, 126, 141, 159
NH 27, 111A(E); CA 133; NY 366; GA 42, 140; FL A1A, 7; CT 32; VT 2A, 5A; PA 3, 51, 60, QC 162, 165, 263; 🇬🇧A100, A3211, A3213, A3215, A4222; 🇫🇷95 D316

Mapmikey

In Virginia the VMS signs definitely switch over to icy weather warnings when that is coming.  Maryland's even have flashing beacons with theirs.

The northern half of the I-95 express lanes are set up for lane open/closed indicators and variable speed limits.  The lane indicators are quite useful.  But the variable speed limit capability is underused.  I have never seen them changed for weather conditions, including when it was completely covered in snow and driving over 35 mph was ill advised.  They only change them in conjunction with a disabled vehicle or accident blocking a lane.

Express lanes in the DC area do not allow tractor trailers, which were clearly a compounding factor in the DFW crash.  Oddly I still see a few semis a month in the Express lanes over here and since State Police have dedicated patrols within the lanes who pull over 95% of them, it is surprising word hasn't gotten around that it is extremely unlikely you can travel these lanes in a semi and not get a hefty ticket.

J N Winkler

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 13, 2021, 02:14:16 AMIt may not be factored in as an official contributing factor (if for no other reason than how common dual Jersey barrier designs are in Texas, and the amount of money it would take to convert them to anything else). However, it's hard to ignore them as someone who is not writing an official statement on the accident. It's not hard to imagine a driver in the situation of having successfully stopped before collision or only struck a glancing blow, but thanks to the barriers has no way to leave the scene before getting struck themselves by other vehicles that were not so lucky.

The standard advice for leaving a pileup is to stay in your car (where you are protected by the spaceframe) for a few minutes to give the point where additional collisions are occurring a chance to recede from your position, and then--if you choose to get out--move toward and past the point of the initial collision before you try to find a lateral route off the highway.

At least part of the I-35W crash was on a viaduct that appears to have a concrete deck without a polymer overlay (example).  As preservation of surface friction is one of the main reasons for using such surface treatments, I wonder if the accident might have been mitigated (if not prevented altogether) if one had been present.

As regards variable speed limits, I hypothesize compliance would be higher if the imposition of a reduced limit were related to inputs that indicate definitely the driving surface is freezing (e.g., high humidity, precipitation falling initially as rain, temperatures dropping--all of which were present immediately before the I-35W pileup) and coupled with a VMS message such as "Roadway Icing Up."  Nowadays RWIS sensors that report pavement temperature are more or less standard ITS components, and when they are installed and working, they take a lot of the guesswork out of assessing whether the driving surface is wet and freezing.  (In Kansas, KDOT runs a RWIS dashboard I have used, in conjunction with the state 511 website, to decide whether to risk winter travel.)
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

longhorn

This happens all the time in the more experienced snow driving north. So I do not understand how a overpass can cause a pile up. It was black ice, when the drivers saw the tail lights it was too late. They were already on the black ice and the grade heading south is down hill also.

I am more interested to see if the private company treated the road.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.