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A strange striping job...

Started by 1995hoo, March 17, 2021, 08:45:49 AM

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1995hoo

There is an animated discussion on TheSabre.com about the intersection of 5th Street and Bent Creek Road in Charlottesville. The satellite view I just linked is slightly outdated and I will explain why in a moment. The original post asked the following question:

QuoteTraffic question. You're turning right at a green light, car opposite you has a green light, not an arrow. They want to turn left onto the same road.

If the road you are both turning onto has two lanes in each direction, do you have the right to turn into either lane, or do you have to use the right lane , allowing the other car to turn left into the left lane.

I think I know the answer, but the intersection at 5th St and Wegmans has me wondering, because it happens daily.

Here is a screenshot someone posted from Google Street View; you can find the same Street View at this link so you can pan it around. Note there is only one left-turn lane coming from the other direction (where the white Camry is to the viewer's left across the way there, illegally stopped beyond the stop bar). Also note the strange line for turning traffic–it runs into the curb. The satellite view is outdated because it doesn't show that line.



Some people say that because the guy turning left must yield, the guy turning right can legally go into either lane even if he's "supposed to" turn into the right lane:

QuotePerson turning left always has to yield–can't turn if car is going right. Person turning left can only go left when it is safe to do so. If a car is turning right it is not safe and thus car turning left can't go.

Generally car turning right should stay in the right lane, but if there is a quick left afterwards it is fine if they go into the left lane quickly - since the it is illegal for the left turning car to be there. 

Others say that because the guy going right is legally required to turn into the right lane, the guy going left need not yield as long as he turns into the left lane. That position seems overall to be the more common position among the people posting in that thread.

It seems to me the bizarre line there changes the equation of "left-turner must go into the left lane" if the left-turner has a green arrow. I have no idea why the line for turning traffic runs into the curb, though I note the one for the left turn going the other way does the same thing. Initially I wondered if the reason for it is to allow left-turners to turn into the right lane, either for easier access to the gas station or to set themselves up to go right at the next traffic light to reach Wegmans, but the fact that there is an equivalent line running into the curb going the other way makes me wonder whether instead they had a problem with people turning incorrectly and trying to pass to the right of cars going the other way before turning. (Charlottesville is known for having a lot of bad drivers who do erratic and stupid things.)

Either way, though, it seems to me that if the guy coming from where the Street View car is in the image above has a RED light, he has to wait because the way the line is configured allows the guy turning left with a green arrow to turn into either lane. The line trumps the Virginia statute requiring the left-turner to turn into the leftmost lane (and the statute specifically allows localities to override the normal rule if necessary).

But if both directions have green lights, the guy turning left has to yield anyway. One of the disputes is whether the guy turning right can legally turn into the left lane and whether that would mean that the guy turning left need not yield because he is "entitled" to the left lane and the guy going right is "required" to turn into the right lane. I tend to think that if there were a wreck, the guy going left when both directions have green lights would get the ticket for failure to yield, but in a civil lawsuit arising out of a crash, neither driver would recover because both were negligent and Virginia's contributory negligence rule thus bars recovery.

What say all of you? My ultimate feeling is, who cares what the law is, you should expect the person going the other way to do the opposite of what he's "supposed to" do and you should do what you must to avoid an accident. Who cares if you're "right" if your car gets wrecked?


(Edited because I forgot to mention why the satellite view was outdated.)
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.


webny99

#1
Drivers tend to handle this differently in different areas and even at different intersections within an area.

There's one location near me where, if drivers didn't turn left and right at the same time, with each sticking to their respective lane to turn into, the people turning left might as well just put it in park from 7AM to 9AM. Between the short green lights and the heavy traffic turning right, they would never get a chance to go if they didn't double-turn.


As a general rule, I would say the person turning right has the right-of-way unless there's a green arrow for left-turning traffic, and there's not much you can do about it if they choose to turn into the left lane. But I agree with this:

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:45:49 AM
My ultimate feeling is, who cares what the law is, you should expect the person going the other way to do the opposite of what he's "supposed to" do and you should do what you must to avoid an accident. Who cares if you're "right" if your car gets wrecked?

1995hoo

#2
Quote from: webny99 on March 17, 2021, 10:33:13 AM
Drivers tend to handle this differently in different areas and even at different intersections within an area.

There's one location near me where, if drivers didn't turn left and right at the same time, with each sticking to their respective lane to turn into, the people turning left might as well just put it in park from 7AM to 9AM. Between the short green lights and the heavy traffic turning right, they would never get a chance to go if they didn't double-turn.

....

My neighborhood used to be like that. There was no green arrow for turning left and we simply had to go left at the same time as the people coming from the other direction were going right and hope that they stayed in their lane (most of them did because they knew we didn't have a green arrow). Thankfully, that was later changed to give us an arrow. Of course, one side effect of that is that people no longer stay in their lane when they turn there.



Edited to add: Funny thing is, at the next intersection to the north, driver behavior varies with the direction. Coming south, there are two mandatory left-turn lanes. People stay in their lane when they make that left turn, probably because there's enough traffic using both turn lanes. Coming south there are also two mandatory right-turn lanes. Lots of people don't stay in their lane when they make that right turn–after they go right, there are three lanes and they turn into whichever one suits them. Coming east, there is a mandatory right-turn lane and an option lane (right or straight). People going right out of the mandatory right-turn lane never stay in their lane, even if someone is turning from the optional lane–I've nearly been sideswiped more than once, and at least one time when I blasted the horn at someone who cut over as I was turning, the woman who did it gave me the finger and cut in front of me anyway as though I were in the wrong. I think the difference in the latter two cases is related to VDOT's insistence on not allowing right on red from other than the curb lane. People have this idea that they're going to save time by turning right on red, even if there are 15 cars lined up ahead of them, so they all get in the curb lane and you see comparatively few turns from other lanes. (That situation obviously does not apply to the overwhelming majority of left turns since left on red is comparatively rare, and dual turn lanes where left on red would be allowed are even rarer.) So because fewer people turn right from the second lane, people assume nobody will be there. At least, that's my theory.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

kphoger

Laws vary by state.

In Texas, for example (if I recall correctly), a right-turning vehicle must turn into the rightmost lane, but there is no similar law requiring a left-turning driver to turn into the leftmost lane.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

1995hoo

For both of you (kphoger and webny99), does the strange line seen in that picture make any difference in your thoughts? The Virginia statute says that someone turning left has to turn into the leftmost lane, but it also allows localities to create exemptions from that. In my view, the line seen in the photo above would create an exception such that someone turning left can turn into either lane, though he must still yield to someone turning right unless he has a green arrow.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

kphoger

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 12:29:20 PM
In my view, the line seen in the photo above would create an exception such that someone turning left can turn into either lane, though he must still yield to someone turning right unless he has a green arrow.

That's how I would interpret it as well.

I know I've seen a similar example, but I can't find one right now.  It would reasonably exist where the leftmost lane becomes a turn-only lane shortly downstream of the intersection.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

webny99

#6
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 12:29:20 PM
For both of you (kphoger and webny99), does the strange line seen in that picture make any difference in your thoughts?

I've never seen that type of striping used in cases where there's only a single turn lane. The main purpose of this type of stripe is to guide traffic when there's two left turn lanes, so it struck me as odd and unnecessary at this location.

But I would have thought that, if the stripe is for some reason deemed necessary, it should end in between the two lanes, rather than on the far right (as is done here, for example).

The stripe essentially allows left-turning traffic to choose either lane, but if they're yielding to right-turning traffic, they're probably doing that anyways, so there's not many contexts in which it makes much of a difference. It also means that double-turning cannot occur during a green arrow phase - it probably wouldn't have anyways, but it certainly won't with this striping arrangement.

Dirt Roads

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 12:29:20 PM
...does the strange line seen in that picture make any difference in your thoughts? The Virginia statute says that someone turning left has to turn into the leftmost lane, but it also allows localities to create exemptions from that. In my view, the line seen in the photo above would create an exception such that someone turning left can turn into either lane, though he must still yield to someone turning right unless he has a green arrow.

I agree that the lane striping infers that left turns may enter the right lane.  This appears to protect left turn traffic trying to access the Exxon station (and Taco Bell/Waffle House).  In most areas, I do see aggressive right turn ROR traffic trying to cut off left turn traffic with a protected green turn arrow.  We've got the crazy problem here in Central North Carolina where aggressive left turn traffic (eastbound towards Raleigh/Durham) tries to cut off right turn traffic when there is a WB-50 turn radius (irrespective of whether or not there is a traffic signal).

I think the law is the same in North Carolina.  The North Carolina Drivers Manual has a graphic that explains the left turn rule as "Do not turn from or enter right hand lane".  That doesn't necessarily mean that this rule has been codified.

kphoger

Quote from: Dirt Roads on March 17, 2021, 09:44:38 PM
I think the law is the same in North Carolina.  The North Carolina Drivers Manual has a graphic that explains the left turn rule as "Do not turn from or enter right hand lane".  That doesn't necessarily mean that this rule has been codified.

This is the first time I've looked at North Carolina traffic laws but, at first glance, it appears left-turning drivers may turn into whatever open lane they choose, unless otherwise marked or signed.

Quote from: North Carolina General Statutes:  Chapter 20 – Motor Vehicles
Article 1 – Division of Motor Vehicles

§ 20-153 – Turning at intersections.

  (b)  Left Turns. – The driver of a vehicle intending to turn left at any intersection shall approach the intersection in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of travel of that vehicle, and, after entering the intersection, the left turn shall be made so as to leave the intersection in a lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction upon the roadway being entered.

  (c) Local authorities and the Department of Transportation, in their respective jurisdictions, may modify the foregoing method of turning at intersections by clearly indicating by buttons, markers, or other direction signs within an intersection the course to be followed by vehicles turning thereat, and it shall be unlawful for any driver to fail to turn in a manner as so directed.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Dirt Roads

Quote from: Dirt Roads on March 17, 2021, 09:44:38 PM
I think the law is the same in North Carolina.  The North Carolina Drivers Manual has a graphic that explains the left turn rule as "Do not turn from or enter right hand lane".  That doesn't necessarily mean that this rule has been codified.

Quote from: kphoger on March 18, 2021, 09:52:23 AM
This is the first time I've looked at North Carolina traffic laws but, at first glance, it appears left-turning drivers may turn into whatever open lane they choose, unless otherwise marked or signed.

Quote from: North Carolina General Statutes:  Chapter 20 – Motor Vehicles
Article 1 – Division of Motor Vehicles

§ 20-153 – Turning at intersections.

  (b)  Left Turns. – The driver of a vehicle intending to turn left at any intersection shall approach the intersection in the extreme left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of travel of that vehicle, and, after entering the intersection, the left turn shall be made so as to leave the intersection in a lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction upon the roadway being entered.

  (c) Local authorities and the Department of Transportation, in their respective jurisdictions, may modify the foregoing method of turning at intersections by clearly indicating by buttons, markers, or other direction signs within an intersection the course to be followed by vehicles turning thereat, and it shall be unlawful for any driver to fail to turn in a manner as so directed.

Don't it figure?  If you look at the North Carolina Drivers Manual (2020 Edition), the left turn graphic on Page 52 is pretty straight forward and exactly what I learned in Driver's Ed Class in West Virginia back in the 1970s.  But there is nothing discussed about left turns in the entire section about Turning on that same page:

Quote from: North Carolina Drivers Manual – Turning, p. 52
For right turns, stay close to the right edge of the road, so that another vehicle cannot move between your vehicle and the curb.  Reduce the vehicle's speed before making the turn and then accelerate slightly.  Motorcycles and bicycles are especially hard to see during a turn.  Always give the proper signal and look before turning to make sure that you can turn safely.



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