Reversed Mileage Signs

[ethanhopkin14]

I was looking for a topic on this before.....I was in New Mexico (of course) in June and I saw a sign with three towns on it, and the furthest away town was listed in the middle, meaning the towns didn't increase in distance as you read down the sign as standard.  I unfortunately can't remember where the sign was so I can't link the image, but I was looking for like examples, and am curious in those situations, what do you think the rationale is for showing them out of order?  Do you think one location is a more popular destination so the state puts more emphasis on it?

[kphoger]

I've seen this plenty of times in Mexico, but also the "normal" way.

To me, it makes sense to have the farther-away destination on top, because up=ahead on signage.  Thus, the farther up the sign, the farther away the destination.

[SkyPesos]

I-26 in SC. Greenville is the furthest away city in that sequence and listed in the middle.

[kphoger]

I-26 in SC. Greenville is the furthest away city in that sequence and listed in the middle.

I expected that to be because Spartanburg is on a different route.  But, no, it's Greenville that's on a different route.  Doubly weird!

[kphoger]

I've seen this plenty of times in Mexico, but also the "normal" way.

To me, it makes sense to have the farther-away destination on top, because up=ahead on signage.  Thus, the farther up the sign, the farther away the destination.

Curiosity got the better of me, so I looked up what the SCT guide says on this.  As it turns out, signage in Mexico is supposed to list the farther-away destination on top.

The highlighted portion can be translated:

When it is necessary to indicate an important intermediate place, a lower board shall be used, positioned on the same support...

[ethanhopkin14]

I've seen this plenty of times in Mexico, but also the "normal" way.

To me, it makes sense to have the farther-away destination on top, because up=ahead on signage.  Thus, the farther up the sign, the farther away the destination.

Curiosity got the better of me, so I looked up what the SCT guide says on this.  As it turns out, signage in Mexico is supposed to list the farther-away destination on top.

The highlighted portion can be translated:

When it is necessary to indicate an important intermediate place, a lower board shall be used, positioned on the same support...

Interesting to see Series E in the Mexico manual as opposed to B as I usually see on the signage. 

[kphoger]

Interesting to see Series E in the Mexico manual as opposed to B as I usually see on the signage. 

The SCT doesn't have a Series 'E' or 'B'.  They have '1' through '5'.

http://www.sct.gob.mx/fileadmin/DireccionesGrales/DGST/Manuales/NUEVO-SENALAMIENTO/21-Capitulo_Vlll_Letras_y_numeros_para_se%C3%B1ales.pdf

http://www.sct.gob.mx/fileadmin/DireccionesGrales/DGST/Manuales/NUEVO-SENALAMIENTO/manualSenalamientoVialDispositivosSeguridad.pdf

[ran4sh]

I-26 in SC. Greenville is the furthest away city in that sequence and listed in the middle.

I expected that to be because Spartanburg is on a different route.  But, no, it's Greenville that's on a different route.  Doubly weird!

Not necessarily "doubly weird" if you technically follow the MUTCD. The bottom line is for the control city, which is Spartanburg. The middle line is for a notable intermediate destination, which can vary on each sign. SC could have used the I-385 junction itself for that line, but instead lists its destination of Greenville.

[Scott5114]

Interesting to see Series E in the Mexico manual as opposed to B as I usually see on the signage. 

The SCT doesn't have a Series 'E' or 'B'.  They have '1' through '5'.

http://www.sct.gob.mx/fileadmin/DireccionesGrales/DGST/Manuales/NUEVO-SENALAMIENTO/21-Capitulo_Vlll_Letras_y_numeros_para_se%C3%B1ales.pdf

http://www.sct.gob.mx/fileadmin/DireccionesGrales/DGST/Manuales/NUEVO-SENALAMIENTO/manualSenalamientoVialDispositivosSeguridad.pdf

Interestingly, it looks like while Series 5 corresponds to B and Series 4 corresponds to C, Series 3 is kind of a C-and-a-half, while 2 is D and 1 is E.

Very clearly based on FHWA Series, but I can spot some noticeable differences.

[amroad17]

This sign had been put up this way since I-75 was opened, I believe (it has been listed this way since when I moved to Northern Kentucky in 1994)...
https://goo.gl/maps/T3TW8uLd8zVdsTbW6
With the improvements made to I-75 between US 42/127 (Exit 180) and Mt. Zion Road (Exit 178) the sign now is more standard...
https://goo.gl/maps/pnjP5wYYoLN7zTTb9

[kphoger]

Interesting to see Series E in the Mexico manual as opposed to B as I usually see on the signage. 

The SCT doesn't have a Series 'E' or 'B'.  They have '1' through '5'.

http://www.sct.gob.mx/fileadmin/DireccionesGrales/DGST/Manuales/NUEVO-SENALAMIENTO/21-Capitulo_Vlll_Letras_y_numeros_para_se%C3%B1ales.pdf

http://www.sct.gob.mx/fileadmin/DireccionesGrales/DGST/Manuales/NUEVO-SENALAMIENTO/manualSenalamientoVialDispositivosSeguridad.pdf

Interestingly, it looks like while Series 5 corresponds to B and Series 4 corresponds to C, Series 3 is kind of a C-and-a-half, while 2 is D and 1 is E.

Very clearly based on FHWA Series, but I can spot some noticeable differences.

For those who are interested, there are detailed glyphs of all five SCT font series in the 1986 manual.  Chapter VIII, which begins on page 425, has a bunch of measurement tables, as well as a full set of uppercase letters and numerals for Serie 1 through Serie 5, plus lowercase letters that correspond (if I'm translating correctly) to Serie 1.

That year's manual also has a LOT of measurements for rendering all sorts of signs, as well as pavement markings.  Heck, it even illustrates how to install electrical conduit for stoplights and what the different colors of wiring do inside the panel.  Basically, it's a playhouse for people who like to design their own stuff and would like to get into Mexican signage.

Here's a scanned copy of the 1986 SCT manual:  http://www.sct.gob.mx/normatecaNew/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/SCT_NIS_0419.pdf

And here's some candy to whet your appetite:

[kphoger]

Are mileage signs really "Traffic Control"?   

[Rothman]

Are mileage signs really "Traffic Control"?   

Yes.

[kphoger]

What aspect of our driving to they control?

(And yes, I do think it's weird that our 1-2-3 challenges are in here too.)

[SkyPesos]

This sign had been put up this way since I-75 was opened, I believe (it has been listed this way since when I moved to Northern Kentucky in 1994)...
https://goo.gl/maps/T3TW8uLd8zVdsTbW6
With the improvements made to I-75 between US 42/127 (Exit 180) and Mt. Zion Road (Exit 178) the sign now is more standard...
https://goo.gl/maps/pnjP5wYYoLN7zTTb9

I don't know why earlier signs have Lexington on the bottom instead of Louisville. Unlike my I-26 example above, this is a concurrency, with one interstate heading to one city, and the other interstate heading to the other city. I don't think there's a written rule somewhere that requires the interstate with exit number continuity in a concurrency (in this case, I-75) have it's control city be on the bottom row on distance signs.

[ethanhopkin14]

This sign had been put up this way since I-75 was opened, I believe (it has been listed this way since when I moved to Northern Kentucky in 1994)...
https://goo.gl/maps/T3TW8uLd8zVdsTbW6
With the improvements made to I-75 between US 42/127 (Exit 180) and Mt. Zion Road (Exit 178) the sign now is more standard...
https://goo.gl/maps/pnjP5wYYoLN7zTTb9

I don't know why earlier signs have Lexington on the bottom instead of Louisville. Unlike my I-26 example above, this is a concurrency, with one interstate heading to one city, and the other interstate heading to the other city. I don't think there's a written rule somewhere that requires the interstate with exit number continuity in a concurrency (in this case, I-75) have it's control city be on the bottom row on distance signs.

Reminds me of this south of the I-35E/I-35W split.  Shouldn't they still be displayed in distance order?  Up the road a few exits they are listed correctly with Ft. Worth listed first. 

[Scott5114]

What aspect of our driving to they control?

(And yes, I do think it's weird that our 1-2-3 challenges are in here too.)

Traffic control devices shall be defined as all signs, signals, markings, and other devices used to regulate, warn, or guide traffic, placed on, over, or adjacent to a street, highway, pedestrian facility, bikeway, or private road open to public travel (see definition in Section 1A.13) by authority of a public agency or official having jurisdiction, or, in the case of a private road, by authority of the private owner or private official having jurisdiction.

[kphoger]

What aspect of our driving to they control?

(And yes, I do think it's weird that our 1-2-3 challenges are in here too.)

Traffic control devices shall be defined as all signs, signals, markings, and other devices used to regulate, warn, or guide traffic, placed on, over, or adjacent to a street, highway, pedestrian facility, bikeway, or private road open to public travel (see definition in Section 1A.13) by authority of a public agency or official having jurisdiction, or, in the case of a private road, by authority of the private owner or private official having jurisdiction.

OK, let me rephrase.  In what way do mileage signs regulate, warn, or guide traffic?

[kphoger]

Interesting to see Series E in the Mexico manual as opposed to B as I usually see on the signage. 

The SCT doesn't have a Series 'E' or 'B'.  They have '1' through '5'.

Interestingly, it looks like while Series 5 corresponds to B and Series 4 corresponds to C, Series 3 is kind of a C-and-a-half, while 2 is D and 1 is E.

Very clearly based on FHWA Series, but I can spot some noticeable differences.

For those who are interested, there are detailed glyphs of all five SCT font series in the 1986 manual.  Chapter VIII, which begins on page 425, has a bunch of measurement tables, as well as a full set of uppercase letters and numerals for Serie 1 through Serie 5, plus lowercase letters that correspond (if I'm translating correctly) to Serie 1.

Here's a scanned copy of the 1986 SCT manual:  http://www.sct.gob.mx/normatecaNew/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/SCT_NIS_0419.pdf

|ethanhopkin14| and |Scott5114| – If you're interested in how to distinguish the two fonts, you might also see this post from ten years ago (selected portions), eight hours after my very first post on the forum:

The MDCT calls for the SCT alphabet series, but in my experience typeface policies are not rigorously enforced.  The last time I looked into sign supply issues in Mexico in detail (at least five years ago now), there were basically three major sign manufacturers.  One used Arial/Helvetica knockoffs, another used the SCT alphabets, and the third used the FHWA alphabets.


There has been no edition of the MDCT more recent than 1986.  The 1986 edition was scanned and uploaded in PDF format about five or six years ago as an alternative to revising or reissuing it in print.  However, some Mexican state highway agencies have their own clones of the MDCT, in much the same way many American states have their own traffic manuals.  The main difference between the US and Mexico in this respect is that SCT has actual ownership of the federal highways, so generally a federal highway will be signed to SCT standards even if the state has its own manual.  The main potential exception to this rule is when a federal highway is built, maintained, or operated by a state as a toll highway through a buyback arrangement, as Chihuahua has done with Mex. 45 between Chihuahua and Juárez.


It can be challenging to differentiate between the SCT and FHWA alphabet series.  The main tells are uppercase M, R and S.  The middle point in M never reaches the baseline in any of the SCT alphabet series, as it does for all of the FHWA alphabet series except for B.  The SCT alphabet series use a large-loop R very similar to those used in the French traffic signing typefaces; the loop increases in prominence the thinner the letters get.  The more condensed (thinner) SCT alphabet series also use a straight stroke to join the top and bottom curves in S, unlike the smooth reverse curves which are used in all of the FHWA alphabet series.

SCT Series 2 is of an intermediate level of condensation which roughly matches Series D.  If words with M, R or S are absent in legend using that typeface, it can sometimes be recognized by the vertically balanced loop in 5.  In contradistinction, 5 in FHWA Series D has a very distinctive spade shape.  SCT Series 3 is one further step along in condensation and has a spade-shaped 5 which is recognizably thinner than the Series D 5 and more or less matches Series C in width.

Mexico being what it is (so far from God, so close to the United States, and all that), often the challenge is differentiating between SCT alphabet series and "Paintbucket Homemade" rather than SCT and FHWA alphabet series.

When I visited Chihuahua in 2002-03, I noticed mixed-case legend on guide signs for the northern leg of the Periférico.  Obviously the FHWA 2000 alphabet series (which standardized mixed-case lettering for all of the FHWA alphabet series, not just Series E Modified) had not yet been released, so I suspect the Mexicans borrowed the glyphs that had been used for mixed-case legend on street name signs in many American cities (including Wichita) for decades.

A couple of notes:

1.  Since Jonathan's post, a new edition of the manual has been released (2014), but it is not as comprehensive when it comes to the glyphs.

2.  The 1986 manual did have glyphs for lowercase letters–but only for one series, which was intended to be used with uppercase letters and numerals from Serie 1.

[Scott5114]

What aspect of our driving to they control?

(And yes, I do think it's weird that our 1-2-3 challenges are in here too.)

Traffic control devices shall be defined as all signs, signals, markings, and other devices used to regulate, warn, or guide traffic, placed on, over, or adjacent to a street, highway, pedestrian facility, bikeway, or private road open to public travel (see definition in Section 1A.13) by authority of a public agency or official having jurisdiction, or, in the case of a private road, by authority of the private owner or private official having jurisdiction.

OK, let me rephrase.  In what way do mileage signs regulate, warn, or guide traffic?

They guide traffic by informing the driver of their distances from potential destinations or decision points, which can then inform their road use decisions. For example, I may see a mileage sign giving me the distance to a certain city and make my decision whether to stop for the night or press on to that city.

Thanks for digging up that very informative post about the SCT typefaces!