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I-15 Express Lanes Signage Change

Started by theroadwayone, March 09, 2018, 12:50:43 AM

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theroadwayone

Since I have a SANDAG-registered FasTrak account, I regularly get updates from them. A day or two ago, I got an email from SANDAG (San Diego Association of Governments) detailing a change in the signage for the fast lanes on the 15. It explained that they had done research, which found that the signs were hard to understand in terms of toll information and who can use the lanes, and they would be changing the signs accordingly.

As of now, the signs at each entry point look like this:


The new signage that is being proposed looks a bit like this:




The plan is for them to start at the south end (CA-163) and then work their way north towards CA-78.

What's your take on this?


mrsman

Quote from: theroadwayone on March 09, 2018, 12:50:43 AM
Since I have a SANDAG-registered FasTrak account, I regularly get updates from them. A day or two ago, I got an email from SANDAG (San Diego Association of Governments) detailing a change in the signage for the fast lanes on the 15. It explained that they had done research, which found that the signs were hard to understand in terms of toll information and who can use the lanes, and they would be changing the signs accordingly.

As of now, the signs at each entry point look like this:


The new signage that is being proposed looks a bit like this:




The plan is for them to start at the south end (CA-163) and then work their way north towards CA-78.

What's your take on this?

It seems that  they are going to guarantee a price for each exit since they are no longer using the MAX designation (or did the MAX mean the price for taking the toll lanes all the way to the end?).  This is helpful and it seems to follow how other agencies deal with variable electronic tolling.

Glad to see that SANDAG is still allowing HOV use completely free (and not require a FASTRAK flex like they do in L.A.)

theroadwayone

Quote from: mrsman on March 09, 2018, 01:37:37 AM
Quote from: theroadwayone on March 09, 2018, 12:50:43 AM
Since I have a SANDAG-registered FasTrak account, I regularly get updates from them. A day or two ago, I got an email from SANDAG (San Diego Association of Governments) detailing a change in the signage for the fast lanes on the 15. It explained that they had done research, which found that the signs were hard to understand in terms of toll information and who can use the lanes, and they would be changing the signs accordingly.

As of now, the signs at each entry point look like this:


The new signage that is being proposed looks a bit like this:




The plan is for them to start at the south end (CA-163) and then work their way north towards CA-78.

What's your take on this?

It seems that  they are going to guarantee a price for each exit since they are no longer using the MAX designation (or did the MAX mean the price for taking the toll lanes all the way to the end?).  This is helpful and it seems to follow how other agencies deal with variable electronic tolling.

Glad to see that SANDAG is still allowing HOV use completely free (and not require a FASTRAK flex like they do in L.A.)

The first photo was an older one; the MAX was covering up what now says "TO CA-78," which is now the north end. They're getting rid of the "Minimum toll" box, which showed the price if you were just jumping between two exits. There wouldn't be a minimum toll rate if it said on the rest of the sign "HOV ONLY" or "OPEN TO ALL."

djsekani

Quote from: mrsman on March 09, 2018, 01:37:37 AM
Glad to see that SANDAG is still allowing HOV use completely free (and not require a FASTRAK flex like they do in L.A.)

On the flip side, I have a FasTrak flex transponder. Last time I drove to San Diego, I wasn't aware that I had to remove it to not be charged a toll as an HOV. Pretty annoying.

mrsman

Quote from: djsekani on April 15, 2018, 01:09:22 AM
Quote from: mrsman on March 09, 2018, 01:37:37 AM
Glad to see that SANDAG is still allowing HOV use completely free (and not require a FASTRAK flex like they do in L.A.)

On the flip side, I have a FasTrak flex transponder. Last time I drove to San Diego, I wasn't aware that I had to remove it to not be charged a toll as an HOV. Pretty annoying.

It's a shame that they couldn't figure a way to "read" the flex signal as a non-toll transaction in San Diego and any place else where carpoolers can go for free or have a discount.

Do you know if there are any carpool discounts in the Bay Area?  Do the EZ Pass flex work there OK?


myosh_tino

#5
Quote from: mrsman on April 19, 2018, 11:43:11 PM
Do you know if there are any carpool discounts in the Bay Area?  Do the EZ Pass flex work there OK?

"Yes" and if you're talking about Fastrak Flex, "Yes but..."

Toll Bridges
All Bay Area toll bridges offer a discount to carpoolers and only requires a regular transponder to get the reduced rate.  Carpoolers on the state-owned bridges pay $2.50 while on the Golden Gate Bridge, the toll is $4.75.

Express Lanes
All Express Lanes in the S.F. Bay Area allow carpoolers to use the lane for free however, the Flex, non-Flex requirement varies...

I-680 (Southbound ONLY)/Sunol - Carpools MUST remove their transponders (both Standard and Flex) and place them in the provided mylar bag to keep them from being read.

I-880 & CA-237/Milpitas - Like the southbound 680 Express Lane, carpools must remove their transponder to keep from being charged a toll.

I-580/Livermore - Carpoolers MUST have a Fastrak Flex transponder to use the lanes toll-free.

I-680/San Ramon Valley - Carpoolers MUST have a Fastrak Flex transponder to use the lanes toll-free.

Why the difference?  Because of how toll enforcement is done.

The I-680/Sunol and the I-880/CA-237 Express Lanes were built first and did not use cameras for toll enforcement.  Instead the CHP had to visually check vehicles to see if they qualified as a carpool if they passed under the tolling gantry and no transponder was read.

That changed when the I-580/Livermore and the I-680/San Ramon Valley Express Lanes opened.  On these facilities, cameras were used to do toll enforcement.  If a car didn't have a transponder, a photo of the license plate was taken and if it wasn't registered to a Fastrak account a toll violation notice is sent to the registered owner.  The side effect was that carpoolers were now required to get a Fastrak Flex transponder and have the switch set to "2" or "3" to use the lanes for free.

I'm hoping the I-680/Sunol Express Lane will get cameras as part of a larger project to build a northbound I-680 Express Lane.  Project plans call for the conversion of the existing southbound Express Lane from "limited access" to "open access" which should mean the tolling equipment will get an upgrade as well.
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

mrsman

Quote from: myosh_tino on April 20, 2018, 01:42:52 AM
Quote from: mrsman on April 19, 2018, 11:43:11 PM
Do you know if there are any carpool discounts in the Bay Area?  Do the EZ Pass flex work there OK?

"Yes" and if you're talking about Fastrak Flex, "Yes but..."

Toll Bridges
All Bay Area toll bridges offer a discount to carpoolers and only requires a regular transponder to get the reduced rate.  Carpoolers on the state-owned bridges pay $2.50 while on the Golden Gate Bridge, the toll is $4.75.

Express Lanes
All Express Lanes in the S.F. Bay Area allow carpoolers to use the lane for free however, the Flex, non-Flex requirement varies...

I-680 (Southbound ONLY)/Sunol - Carpools MUST remove their transponders (both Standard and Flex) and place them in the provided mylar bag to keep them from being read.

I-880 & CA-237/Milpitas - Like the southbound 680 Express Lane, carpools must remove their transponder to keep from being charged a toll.

I-580/Livermore - Carpoolers MUST have a Fastrak Flex transponder to use the lanes toll-free.

I-680/San Ramon Valley - Carpoolers MUST have a Fastrak Flex transponder to use the lanes toll-free.

Why the difference?  Because of how toll enforcement is done.

The I-680/Sunol and the I-880/CA-237 Express Lanes were built first and did not use cameras for toll enforcement.  Instead the CHP had to visually check vehicles to see if they qualified as a carpool if they passed under the tolling gantry and no transponder was read.

That changed when the I-580/Livermore and the I-680/San Ramon Valley Express Lanes opened.  On these facilities, cameras were used to do toll enforcement.  If a car didn't have a transponder, a photo of the license plate was taken and if it wasn't registered to a Fastrak account a toll violation notice is sent to the registered owner.  The side effect was that carpoolers were now required to get a Fastrak Flex transponder and have the switch set to "2" or "3" to use the lanes for free.

I'm hoping the I-680/Sunol Express Lane will get cameras as part of a larger project to build a northbound I-680 Express Lane.  Project plans call for the conversion of the existing southbound Express Lane from "limited access" to "open access" which should mean the tolling equipment will get an upgrade as well.

Wow. It's suprising to me that the same highway would have different policies.  It must be really confusing.  The hope is that all the older facilities (both in the bay area and San Diego) should get updated so that there is only one policy in the state.

And they should get rid of the monthly charges on Fastrack as well.

myosh_tino

Quote from: mrsman on April 20, 2018, 02:11:39 PM
And they should get rid of the monthly charges on Fastrack as well.

Monthly charge?  My local tolling agency, the Bay Area Toll Authority, does not charge a monthly fee for having a FasTrak transponder.  With that said, I would not recommend those in SoCal get their transponders from the BATA because if they find that the majority of the activity is not in the S.F. Bay Area, then they do have to right to impose an undisclosed monthly charge.
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

theroadwayone

Quote from: myosh_tino on April 20, 2018, 08:36:42 PM
Quote from: mrsman on April 20, 2018, 02:11:39 PM
And they should get rid of the monthly charges on Fastrack as well.

Monthly charge?  My local tolling agency, the Bay Area Toll Authority, does not charge a monthly fee for having a FasTrak transponder.  With that said, I would not recommend those in SoCal get their transponders from the BATA because if they find that the majority of the activity is not in the S.F. Bay Area, then they do have to right to impose an undisclosed monthly charge.
I have a SANDAG transponder, and they charge a minimum monthly toll (MMT) of $4.50, unless your activity goes over that much in which case you don't owe anything on top of that. That said, there is a catch, such that said activity must be on either the I-15 HO/T lanes or the 125. So you could drive a day or so on the OC toll roads or the Bay Area bridges and it wouldn't count.

mrsman

Quote from: theroadwayone on April 20, 2018, 09:24:31 PM
Quote from: myosh_tino on April 20, 2018, 08:36:42 PM
Quote from: mrsman on April 20, 2018, 02:11:39 PM
And they should get rid of the monthly charges on Fastrack as well.

Monthly charge?  My local tolling agency, the Bay Area Toll Authority, does not charge a monthly fee for having a FasTrak transponder.  With that said, I would not recommend those in SoCal get their transponders from the BATA because if they find that the majority of the activity is not in the S.F. Bay Area, then they do have to right to impose an undisclosed monthly charge.
I have a SANDAG transponder, and they charge a minimum monthly toll (MMT) of $4.50, unless your activity goes over that much in which case you don't owe anything on top of that. That said, there is a catch, such that said activity must be on either the I-15 HO/T lanes or the 125. So you could drive a day or so on the OC toll roads or the Bay Area bridges and it wouldn't count.

THe LA MTA (which run the 110 and 10 express lanes as well as transit in the LA area) charge $1/month just for having a transponder, unless you qualify for low-income assistance.

https://www.metroexpresslanes.net/en/faq/maintenance.shtml

Since I left CA 18 years ago, I'm more aware of the monthly fee shenanigans in EZ-Pass territory.  I generallly don't use toll roads in regular commuting, but use it to visit family in New York.  You have to shop around to find the best deal as some agencies charge a monthly fee and others don't. 

IMO, it's wrong to do this.  The transonders are saving the agencies a ton of money on paying  the salaries of toll takers.  In the old days, those who did not use the toll roads didn't pay the agencies a dime.  It should be the same way today - only those who use the roads should pay, based on their usage.  Whatever administrative costs do exist for these transponders should be covered by the toll charges alone.

Occidental Tourist

#10
You do not need to live in the Bay Area or have a NorCal address to have a bayareafastrak account. I've had an account and transponders for ten years and never had a single toll run on them on a Bay Area bridge. However, I regularly run them through the 91 Express Lanes. I have never been charged any kind of fee for not running tolls on Bay Area bridges.

myosh_tino

#11
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on April 22, 2018, 02:53:36 PM
You do not need to live in the Bay Area or have a NorCal address to have a bayareafastrak account. I've had an account and transponders for ten years and never had a single toll run on them on a Bay Area bridge. However, I regularly run them through the 91 Express Lanes. I have never been charged any kind of fee for not running tolls on Bay Area bridges.

I suspect that this isn't that big of a problem for the BATA *yet* but the policy is in place just in case they see a large number of accounts being opened but all the activity is not in the S.F. Bay Area.  IMO, monthly service fees should be done away with.  Why penalize those that only the use the tolled facilities every once in a while?  I don't think it costs the tolling agencies a whole lot to maintain those transponders that are used infrequently.


Quote from: theroadwayone on March 09, 2018, 12:50:43 AM
The new signage that is being proposed looks a bit like this:



The plan is for them to start at the south end (CA-163) and then work their way north towards CA-78.

What's your take on this?

That is pretty much how Express Lane signage looks like up here in Northern California.  This is how the signs are going to look on the just-underway project to add an express lane on northbound I-680 between Milpitas and Sunol...



... with the only significant difference being the arrow in the upper-left corner of the sign, the static HOV 2+ FREE message at the bottom of the sign and the inclusion of travel times with the toll information.  It should be noted that the I-580 Express Lanes in Livermore and the I-680 Express Lanes in the San Ramon Valley all have similarly laid out signs.

Unlike the I-15 Express Lanes in San Diego, those in the S.F. Bay Area are generally "Open-Access" meaning drivers can enter and exit as they please rather than at designated entry and exit points.
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

theroadwayone

If you have a SANDAG account, you get a little bag to put your transponder in if you're carpooling in the lanes.

jrouse

Quote from: mrsman on April 20, 2018, 02:11:39 PM
Quote from: myosh_tino on April 20, 2018, 01:42:52 AM
Quote from: mrsman on April 19, 2018, 11:43:11 PM
Do you know if there are any carpool discounts in the Bay Area?  Do the EZ Pass flex work there OK?

"Yes" and if you're talking about Fastrak Flex, "Yes but..."

Toll Bridges
All Bay Area toll bridges offer a discount to carpoolers and only requires a regular transponder to get the reduced rate.  Carpoolers on the state-owned bridges pay $2.50 while on the Golden Gate Bridge, the toll is $4.75.

Express Lanes
All Express Lanes in the S.F. Bay Area allow carpoolers to use the lane for free however, the Flex, non-Flex requirement varies...

I-680 (Southbound ONLY)/Sunol - Carpools MUST remove their transponders (both Standard and Flex) and place them in the provided mylar bag to keep them from being read.

I-880 & CA-237/Milpitas - Like the southbound 680 Express Lane, carpools must remove their transponder to keep from being charged a toll.

I-580/Livermore - Carpoolers MUST have a Fastrak Flex transponder to use the lanes toll-free.

I-680/San Ramon Valley - Carpoolers MUST have a Fastrak Flex transponder to use the lanes toll-free.

Why the difference?  Because of how toll enforcement is done.

The I-680/Sunol and the I-880/CA-237 Express Lanes were built first and did not use cameras for toll enforcement.  Instead the CHP had to visually check vehicles to see if they qualified as a carpool if they passed under the tolling gantry and no transponder was read.

That changed when the I-580/Livermore and the I-680/San Ramon Valley Express Lanes opened.  On these facilities, cameras were used to do toll enforcement.  If a car didn't have a transponder, a photo of the license plate was taken and if it wasn't registered to a Fastrak account a toll violation notice is sent to the registered owner.  The side effect was that carpoolers were now required to get a Fastrak Flex transponder and have the switch set to "2" or "3" to use the lanes for free.

I'm hoping the I-680/Sunol Express Lane will get cameras as part of a larger project to build a northbound I-680 Express Lane.  Project plans call for the conversion of the existing southbound Express Lane from "limited access" to "open access" which should mean the tolling equipment will get an upgrade as well.

Wow. It's suprising to me that the same highway would have different policies.  It must be really confusing.  The hope is that all the older facilities (both in the bay area and San Diego) should get updated so that there is only one policy in the state.

And they should get rid of the monthly charges on Fastrack as well.

The older express lanes will eventually begin requiring all users to have FasTrak transponders.  The 237 express lanes will change over in 2020, and the I-680 express lane over the Sunol Grade will convert when the new northbound lane opens in a couple of years.  At that point the Bay Area will be consistent when it comes to that operational requirement.  I-15 in San Diego will eventually convert at some point but I'm not sure when.



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