I-49 in Arkansas

[bugo]

If OK 112 is made into an expressway (which needs to happen) there might be a push to realign US 271. Until then, I doubt anything will change.

[Bobby5280]

I'm not a big fan of Interstate highways hopping back and forth over state lines, which is what would happen if I-49 was routed into Oklahoma via Poteau and US-59 South.

This conceptual I-49 route in Oklahoma would run into a terrain and routing problem just as bad if not worse than the Foran Gap in Arkansas if it went far enough South in Oklahoma. The road could continue South roughly following US-259 from the split with US-59/US-270. But US-259 gets really crooked going over the mountains south of Big Cedar. It's far more crooked than US-71 between Y City and Acorn in Arkansas. The road is steep too. The conceptual I-49 route could avoid that mountain pass by doubling back into Arkansas via US-59/US-270, which would place the I-49 route into Mena. It would parallel the choices taken by an existing railroad corridor. But that would be a pretty stupid looking large bend on the map.

[bugo]

If an interstate were ever to be built over Kiamichi Mountain (the "crooked" part of US 259) the best bet would be to build a tunnel. The price would be outrageous. I doubt the road over Kiamichi Mountain will ever be significantly improved over what is it now.

[Anthony_JK]

Here are some maps courtesy of AHTD. The maps aren't 100% accurate as they don't show an exit at AR 8 near the Mena airport. Who knows what other errors they contain, if any. These maps show the proposed exit numbers. They are several years old so some plans might have changed since they were published.
[...]

Was there a key for the map? I understand the green and red, but the grey?

Gray must represent the sections already completed.

[Henry]

Here are some maps courtesy of AHTD. The maps aren't 100% accurate as they don't show an exit at AR 8 near the Mena airport. Who knows what other errors they contain, if any. These maps show the proposed exit numbers. They are several years old so some plans might have changed since they were published.

I cross-referenced the above maps with Froggie's exit list of said proposal, and saw that some numbers may be off by 1 or 2, but other than that, it follows the same route very accurately.

[Bobby5280]

While the proposed I-49 route is a little curvy in spots (the Foran Gap in particular) that route is about as good (direct) as it can get without building tunnels. Here in the United States we don't seem to know how to build tunnels anymore without it completely breaking the bank. NWA should count itself lucky they were able to get the Bobby Hopper Tunnel built on I-540 (now I-49) when they did. Today that 1500' tunnel would cost a stupid fortune to build.

[O Tamandua]

That's been me, and I didn't mean that I-49 goes to Winnipeg, but that it's part of the hourglass-shaped corridor (the "Winnie-Minnie-New-Hou") that looks to be (when completed) central North America's main north-south interstate system of the future.

And what's wrong with I-55 and the Avenue of the Saints (from New Orleans to Minneapolis/Winnipeg)? It doesn't pass through the area that the promoters of this new route live in?

Sounds like the focus of this particular PR flack is centered around Kansas City, the "cinch" point of the so-called "hourglass".  If the focus were the entire state of Missouri, then the AOS/I-55 corridor might get a reference -- but that doesn't seem to be the case, at least from what I've seen & read referring to I-49 publicity efforts.  Obviously, there's a conflation of I-49 with I-29 and, to a lesser degree, I-35 north of KC; this sort of thing is a common occurrence when commercial interests start touting a corridor project (making it seem like it's more comprehensive than it really is).  In this case, the goal seems to be to convince commercial users to funnel onto I-49 from the entire upper Midwest, including the Canadian plains provinces.  If such efforts can translate into increased support from various interests regarding the need to complete the I-49 corridor, then PR efforts will have been valid -- if a bit overarching at times.

Actually, looking on a map, the "hourglass" links the biggest cities of both central Canada and five north central American states plus Kansas (if one considers the KC metro as Kansas' biggest city, which it would be) to the largest cities in Texas and Louisiana (with many of America's busiest ports between them) with ever-growing northwest Arkansas (gaining 32 net people per day, with a population estimated at 540,000 metro, not including adjacent metro Fort Smith) in the middle, not counting whatever Mexico-bound traffic there would be.  It would be the quickest interstate way from the northern cities to Houston and New Orleans were I-49 complete in Arkansas.  Just looking at a map of the U.S. it seems hard to believe this wouldn't be a heavily used corridor.

Forgive me if someone answered (couldn't find it) but is the Bella Vista grant application with Missouri a "Tiger" or an "Infra", if it gets let this year?  Thank you in advance. (EDIT: looked it up and it's an "Infra"...holding out hope...)

[sparker]

There's a reason why the I-49 corridor was also the first high-priority corridor (HPC #1) to be legislated -- it not only provides a direct connection from the central Gulf Coast to the distribution point of Kansas City but also bisected the singular reasonably populated area in the central part of the country without a N-S Interstate corridor.  And the fact that it feeds (or eventually will) into intersecting diagonal routes (I-30,44) that expand its distributional capabilities to more northeasterly points.  Essentially it fills a longstanding gap in the Interstate network -- one that, but for a twist of fate, should and likely would have been included in the Interstate expansion legislation 50 years ago!   

[NE2]

It would be the quickest interstate way from the northern cities to Houston and New Orleans were I-49 complete in Arkansas.

Bullshit. Unless the Avenue of the Saints starts getting major traffic problems, you're not going to make better time with 50 more miles via I-49 (to Winnipeg; Minneapolis is 80 miles shorter on the AoTS). And Houston to Winnipeg is laughable. 69/49 is 60 miles longer than the direct route (using US 75 between Topeka and Nebraska City). It's only Houston to Minneapolis where 69/49 is on par, and that's because Oklahoma hasn't upgraded US 69. Turn US 69 into a freeway and it's no contest.

[O Tamandua]

It would be the quickest interstate way from the northern cities to Houston and New Orleans were I-49 complete in Arkansas.

Bullshit. Unless the Avenue of the Saints starts getting major traffic problems, you're not going to make better time with 50 more miles via I-49 (to Winnipeg; Minneapolis is 80 miles shorter on the AoTS). And Houston to Winnipeg is laughable. 69/49 is 60 miles longer than the direct route (using US 75 between Topeka and Nebraska City). It's only Houston to Minneapolis where 69/49 is on par, and that's because Oklahoma hasn't upgraded US 69. Turn US 69 into a freeway and it's no contest.

Respectfully said, I'm not sure why you're angry enough to use foul language.  If it's shorter, great.  Yet it seems hard to figure just looking at the map here.  A finished I-49 is WAY overdue, and a finished I-69 in Texas will open a lot of possibilities.

[seicer]

I think that while these new projects will offer localized benefits, the thought of them offering inter-regional and inter-national benefits diminishes with each passing year, especially in areas where the highway(s) overlay (or will overlay) on existing routes or will closely align with already established corridors.

[US71]

So while we're building all the new highways, what happens to the existing ones?

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

So while we're building all the new highways, what happens to the existing ones?

They decay?

[US71]

So while we're building all the new highways, what happens to the existing ones?

They decay?

Right! Because all the money is going to pet projects.

[seicer]

Well, coupled with the relative decline of the gas tax compared to inflation; the reluctance or lack of political will to peg the gas tax to inflation; and the reluctance to adopt system-wide tolls on existing facilities to make up for lack of an increase in the gas tax - and this is what you get. Projects that should take far shorter and highways that are in far worse shape.

[Bobby5280]

Add a fairly aggressive rate of cost inflation for road building and maintenance projects to that equation. We can't build any big things without the process including at least a decade's worth of public hearings, lawsuits, red tape entanglements, environmental issues and compliance with ever-changing (and always more expensive) safety standards. When the project can finally get moving costs of construction and materials have shot the original budget to hell.

So even if we had the gasoline tax pegged to a percentage of the price for a gallon of gasoline (which I think should be done) rather than a flat level (which hasn't changed in over 20 years in some states, like Oklahoma) we would still have all these time and cost bleeding issues taking place.

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

Add a fairly aggressive rate of cost inflation for road building and maintenance projects to that equation. We can't build any big things without the process including at least a decade's worth of public hearings, lawsuits, red tape entanglements, environmental issues and compliance with ever-changing (and always more expensive) safety standards. When the project can finally get moving costs of construction and materials have shot the original budget to hell.

So even if we had the gasoline tax pegged to a percentage of the price for a gallon of gasoline (which I think should be done) rather than a flat level (which hasn't changed in over 20 years in some states, like Oklahoma) we would still have all these time and cost bleeding issues taking place.

Why is Oklahoma looking to a gas tax when they have tolls? To me, a gas tax is the poor man's route. Now, gas tax + tolls= $$$.

[Scott5114]

Oklahoma toll money has to stay on the toll road system. It cannot be used to upgrade free roads.

[Plutonic Panda]

Add a fairly aggressive rate of cost inflation for road building and maintenance projects to that equation. We can't build any big things without the process including at least a decade's worth of public hearings, lawsuits, red tape entanglements, environmental issues and compliance with ever-changing (and always more expensive) safety standards. When the project can finally get moving costs of construction and materials have shot the original budget to hell.

So even if we had the gasoline tax pegged to a percentage of the price for a gallon of gasoline (which I think should be done) rather than a flat level (which hasn't changed in over 20 years in some states, like Oklahoma) we would still have all these time and cost bleeding issues taking place.

Do you ever think that shit will be put in check or get worse? It seems like much needed infrastructure projects are nothing short of a miracle if they're completed these days.

[Bobby5280]

The thing really chapping my @$$ now is the Oklahoma state legislature wants to raise the fuel tax for the first time since the early 1990's, but the tax hike won't go to roads, it will go into public education to supposedly fund teacher pay raises.

I'm all for paying teachers a good, competitive wage. And average teacher pay in Oklahoma is either dead last or 49th in the nation depending on which stat is brought up. It's still a shameful embarrassment for the state. I personally know teachers who have left the state for far better paying teaching jobs elsewhere. School districts in Texas openly run job fairs in Oklahoma, poaching our better qualified teachers. Meanwhile Oklahoma has been doing "emergency certification" for hundreds of not fully qualified people to fill teaching vacancies. The whole thing is a very serious problem, one that is very bad for business -especially business recruitment. Any company looking at building a new factory, office, etc in a new location needs a work force to fill it. Good quality workers often have spouses and kids. Good quality public schools and good quality teachers are vital for those kids. There's no getting around that. If a certain location has a school system that is limping along after multiple years of bone deep budget cuts and losing qualified teachers right and left that location is going to have a hard time attracting and keeping working families.

At the same time, it's complete bull$#!+ that our state insists on coming up with stupid, regressive schemes to fund any improvements to public education. Pulling the funding out fuel taxes is Stealing from Peter to pay Paul. Unfortunately we have a state with no shortage of selfish, ignorant voters who think stuff like good roads or good schools shouldn't cost anything.

[US71]

Someone has to pay for those tax breaks for the uber-wealthy.

[Scott5114]

The thing really chapping my @$$ now is the Oklahoma state legislature wants to raise the fuel tax for the first time since the early 1990's, but the tax hike won't go to roads, it will go into public education to supposedly fund teacher pay raises.
[...]
At the same time, it's complete bull$#!+ that our state insists on coming up with stupid, regressive schemes to fund any improvements to public education. Pulling the funding out fuel taxes is Stealing from Peter to pay Paul. Unfortunately we have a state with no shortage of selfish, ignorant voters who think stuff like good roads or good schools shouldn't cost anything.

Looks like we'll probably be shambling along from crisis to crisis. This time it's education, next it will be transportation, who knows what's after that. This year's Oklahoma gubernatorial election is going to be critical.

[Bobby5280]

I'm going to be voting my anger at lots of incumbents. And I will not be made to have any party loyalty either. This partisan/populist garbage (and how the media used it in combination with stoking fear and anger to boost ratings and ad sales) is a big part of what has us stumbling from one crisis to the next.

The functions of our modern society are held together in a delicate balance. It takes lots of people from all walks of life to see the importance of maintaining and contributing to the so-called greater good to keep the balance intact. If too many people are only concerned about what they can gain for themselves then our society's sense of balance erodes. We're well into that phase and seem to be speeding up the crumbling process. Institutionalized greed is not free from consequence. Just in terms of the process of building major infrastructure projects all of the connected players looking to get theirs are making big projects ever more impossible to build. On the individual level we're twisting our culture to make the act of raising a family a high priced luxury purchase. Lots of young, working class people will be forced to opt-out of that cornerstone of the so-called American dream. Then we'll really be screwed. But on the bright side the states won't need nearly as much money for public schools once there are far fewer students to teach.

[NE2]

On the individual level we're twisting our culture to make the act of raising a family a high priced luxury purchase. Lots of young, working class people will be forced to opt-out of that cornerstone of the so-called American dream.

Good. We need fewer kids.

[jbnv]

On the individual level we're twisting our culture to make the act of raising a family a high priced luxury purchase. Lots of young, working class people will be forced to opt-out of that cornerstone of the so-called American dream.

Good. We need fewer kids.

Who is "we"?