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New Cape Cod Canal bridges

Started by Pete from Boston, June 27, 2019, 09:26:33 AM

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bob7374

MassDOT is attempting again to get grant moneys to help pay for at least 1 of the Cape Cod Canal bridge replacements:
https://www.mass.gov/news/federal-funding-application-filed-for-sagamore-bridge-replacement


Pete from Boston

Quote from: bob7374 on December 11, 2023, 11:23:19 AM
MassDOT is attempting again to get grant moneys to help pay for at least 1 of the Cape Cod Canal bridge replacements:
https://www.mass.gov/news/federal-funding-application-filed-for-sagamore-bridge-replacement
Interesting that they are considering replacing one of them before the other. I would think there would be economies of scale in bidding both together but that's just speculation.

Ted$8roadFan

Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 13, 2023, 06:10:56 AM
Quote from: bob7374 on December 11, 2023, 11:23:19 AM
MassDOT is attempting again to get grant moneys to help pay for at least 1 of the Cape Cod Canal bridge replacements:
https://www.mass.gov/news/federal-funding-application-filed-for-sagamore-bridge-replacement
Interesting that they are considering replacing one of them before the other. I would think there would be economies of scale in bidding both together but that's just speculation.

Replacing both bridges at the same time would seem to make sense, but I think the state's reasoning is twofold: first, one bridge will need to remain open to handle the inevitable delays that will result from construction; also, the Sagamore Bridge should be replaced first, since it handles traffic coming directly from Boston. Either way, I don't envy anyone who lives and works on the Cape.

RobbieL2415

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on December 13, 2023, 07:28:46 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 13, 2023, 06:10:56 AM
Quote from: bob7374 on December 11, 2023, 11:23:19 AM
MassDOT is attempting again to get grant moneys to help pay for at least 1 of the Cape Cod Canal bridge replacements:
https://www.mass.gov/news/federal-funding-application-filed-for-sagamore-bridge-replacement
Interesting that they are considering replacing one of them before the other. I would think there would be economies of scale in bidding both together but that's just speculation.

Replacing both bridges at the same time would seem to make sense, but I think the state's reasoning is twofold: first, one bridge will need to remain open to handle the inevitable delays that will result from construction; also, the Sagamore Bridge should be replaced first, since it handles traffic coming directly from Boston. Either way, I don't envy anyone who lives and works on the Cape.
Might also be wise to consider running the MBTA CapeFlyer service full time during construction, as opposed to just the summer.

bob7374


froggie

Since the ACoE actually owns the bridges, I feel like the Feds should be chipping in a bit more to begin with.  But Congress doesn't seem to have much of an appetite for funding actual Federal roads, as evidenced by the insane backlog of NPS maintenance projects...

Plutonic Panda


bob7374

The Sagamore Bridge replacement project has received $371,870,542 in grant moneys as part of the National Infrastructure Assistance (Mega) Program:
https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/2024-01/MEGA%20Fact%20Sheets%20FY%202023-2024_Final.pdf

pderocco

Is that expected to pay for the whole project? Somehow, that seems like a down payment.

And then there's Bourne...

RobbieL2415

Quote from: pderocco on January 26, 2024, 02:04:41 AM
Is that expected to pay for the whole project? Somehow, that seems like a down payment.

And then there's Bourne...
I'd imagine the Bourne Bridge will cost more due to its different approach lengths.

froggie

One could make a case that Sagamore is the higher need.

That $371M is a "down payment" in a project that will run 10-digits, but it's a significant step.

Ted$8roadFan


Ted$8roadFan


bob7374

The MassDOT Board has approved the latest 5-Year Capital Improvement Plan which includes funding for the Cape bridges:
https://www.mass.gov/news/massdot-board-approves-167-billion-five-year-capital-investment-plan

bluecountry

How come I-195 or I-495 do not extend over the bridge?

pderocco

Quote from: bluecountry on July 18, 2024, 12:35:51 PMHow come I-195 or I-495 do not extend over the bridge?
If you mean the Bourne Bridge, then for what purpose? To dump into route 28 on the other side of the bridge?

If you mean the Sagamore Bridge, which is the part of the project being planned now, how would either route get there in the first place as a full freeway meeting Interstate standards?

Ted$8roadFan

Even without the significant logistical and financial implications of extending interstate-caliber highways over the bridges, the local opposition would be overwhelming.

webny99

I would honestly just like to see MA 25 extended to meet MA 3 on the mainland side of the cape. I-495 could then be designated along said extension. Why this wasn't done decades ago is beyond my comprehension. For a such a short (~2.5 mile) extension, it would significantly improve connectivity/redundancy between the two bridges, and all the more so with the new Sagamore Bridge being built first.

I would even go so far as to say that, with a 6-lane Sagamore Bridge and a freeway connector from I-495 to MA 3, congestion issues approaching the bridges would be so improved that the replacing the Bourne Bridge would no longer be a pressing need. Even though it would still eventually be needed, it would be primarily because of the aging structure rather than capacity constraint issues. It's majorly underrated how much that lack of connectivity and resulting US 6/Sandwich Rd situation exacerbates the congestion issues.

The Ghostbuster

There was to have been a Southside Connector freeway extending MA 25 to the US 6 Mid-Cape Highway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Route_25#Southside_Connector_proposal. It doesn't look like the connector will ever be built and would likely face very strong opposition if it were revived.

webny99

^ Notably, my proposal would not require any changes to the Cape crossings other than the expected rebuild of the Sagamore Bridge. The new alignment would remain entirely on the mainland and tie in north of the existing MA 3/US 6 interchange.

bob7374

Quote from: webny99 on July 19, 2024, 08:34:33 AMI would honestly just like to see MA 25 extended to meet MA 3 on the mainland side of the cape. I-495 could then be designated along said extension. Why this wasn't done decades ago is beyond my comprehension. For a such a short (~2.5 mile) extension, it would significantly improve connectivity/redundancy between the two bridges, and all the more so with the new Sagamore Bridge being built first.

I would even go so far as to say that, with a 6-lane Sagamore Bridge and a freeway connector from I-495 to MA 3, congestion issues approaching the bridges would be so improved that the replacing the Bourne Bridge would no longer be a pressing need. Even though it would still eventually be needed, it would be primarily because of the aging structure rather than capacity constraint issues. It's majorly underrated how much that lack of connectivity and resulting US 6/Sandwich Rd situation exacerbates the congestion issues.
If you want an interstate to extend all the way to the Canal, it may be easier to sign an interstate along MA 3 to the new Sagamore Bridge than attempt to build something new between MA 25 and MA 3.

froggie

Quote from: webny99 on July 19, 2024, 03:01:37 PM^ Notably, my proposal would not require any changes to the Cape crossings other than the expected rebuild of the Sagamore Bridge. The new alignment would remain entirely on the mainland and tie in north of the existing MA 3/US 6 interchange.

Have you looked at the topography, bogs/wetlands, conservation areas, and existing development on the mainland side?  There's basically no way to build what you propose today.

webny99

Quote from: froggie on July 20, 2024, 02:39:09 PM
Quote from: webny99 on July 19, 2024, 03:01:37 PM^ Notably, my proposal would not require any changes to the Cape crossings other than the expected rebuild of the Sagamore Bridge. The new alignment would remain entirely on the mainland and tie in north of the existing MA 3/US 6 interchange.

Have you looked at the topography, bogs/wetlands, conservation areas, and existing development on the mainland side?  There's basically no way to build what you propose today.


I have looked at the area in satellite view, but not in depth. To me this connection is just so much more valuable than either of the individual bridge replacements (especially the Bourne) that it's at least worth considering its feasibility and potential impacts/effects on the bridge project(s).

Rothman

Quote from: webny99 on July 20, 2024, 04:15:33 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 20, 2024, 02:39:09 PM
Quote from: webny99 on July 19, 2024, 03:01:37 PM^ Notably, my proposal would not require any changes to the Cape crossings other than the expected rebuild of the Sagamore Bridge. The new alignment would remain entirely on the mainland and tie in north of the existing MA 3/US 6 interchange.

Have you looked at the topography, bogs/wetlands, conservation areas, and existing development on the mainland side?  There's basically no way to build what you propose today.


I have looked at the area in satellite view, but not in depth. To me this connection is just so much more valuable than either of the individual bridge replacements (especially the Bourne) that it's at least worth considering its feasibility and potential impacts/effects on the bridge project(s).

Froggie's pointing out that you don't seem to have the expertise or experience with the area to do so.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

webny99

#49
Quote from: Rothman on July 20, 2024, 08:35:57 PM
Quote from: webny99 on July 20, 2024, 04:15:33 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 20, 2024, 02:39:09 PM
Quote from: webny99 on July 19, 2024, 03:01:37 PM^ Notably, my proposal would not require any changes to the Cape crossings other than the expected rebuild of the Sagamore Bridge. The new alignment would remain entirely on the mainland and tie in north of the existing MA 3/US 6 interchange.

Have you looked at the topography, bogs/wetlands, conservation areas, and existing development on the mainland side?  There's basically no way to build what you propose today.


I have looked at the area in satellite view, but not in depth. To me this connection is just so much more valuable than either of the individual bridge replacements (especially the Bourne) that it's at least worth considering its feasibility and potential impacts/effects on the bridge project(s).

Froggie's pointing out that you don't seem to have the expertise or experience with the area to do so.

Nor is that my job, nor did I claim to ... It just seems obvious that it should be part of both DOT and regional planning processes to consider a wide range of alternatives and their implications when undertaking a multi-billion dollar project.



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