I-95/Penna Turnpike Interchange

[billpa]

It's too bad there isn't a closer look of the 95/Pike junction on the Philly metro map but it's a bit too far to the north and east of the area covered.

Pixel 2

[PHLBOS]

^ I picked up that map a few weeks ago, and I completely forgot to look at its depiction of the I-95/PA Turnpike interchange. (I was more concerned with the new map's depictions of the CSVT, US 219 freeway, and Pittsburgh Southern Beltway.)

But this is an interesting, nuanced, and surprisingly accurate depiction –especially compared with Rand McNally, which simply put an square interchange symbol over the point at which the two freeways cross (and kept the entirety of the former Turnpike mainline as "toll" ).

Actually, it was the AAA maps & atlases that still show the I-95 portion of the PA Turnpike as a tolled facility.  The 2020 Rand McNally maps/atlases show such as a free highway between the I-276/295 (Exit 40) & US 13 (Exit 42) interchanges.

With regards to PA's/PennDOT's latest road maps (I picked some up at the Welcome Center along I-81 northbound (beyond the MD State Line); such are the only maps that show all of the newer interchanges along the PA Turnpike (I-76/276/476) as well as Exit 329 off I-76/Schuylkill Expressway (ramps are shown but such isn't numbered on the vicinity map).

[briantroutman]

The 2020 Rand McNally maps/atlases show such as a free highway between the I-276/295 (Exit 40) & US 13 (Exit 42) interchanges.

If the 2020 edition has been updated/corrected, that's good to hear. I was referring to the most recent version that I have (2019), which does show the new I-95 interchange but kept the green color on the free portion of the Turnpike in that area. Also note the misleading positioning of the toll barrier on the PA side of the river crossing.

[jeffandnicole]

The 2020 Rand McNally maps/atlases show such as a free highway between the I-276/295 (Exit 40) & US 13 (Exit 42) interchanges.

If the 2020 edition has been updated/corrected, that’s good to hear. I was referring to the most recent version that I have (2019), which does show the new I-95 interchange but kept the green color on the free portion of the Turnpike in that area. Also note the misleading positioning of the toll barrier on the PA side of the river crossing.

There is a toll there...just for SB/WB traffic though.

Note...You see the Betsy Ross & US 1 bridges shown in the pic.  Note they're shown as toll roads, even though they're one way tolls...and NO ONE HAS EVER SAID ANYTHING. 

That's why I've maintained people are being overly anal about how the new 95 routing is being portrayed.

[PHLBOS]

The 2020 Rand McNally maps/atlases show such as a free highway between the I-276/295 (Exit 40) & US 13 (Exit 42) interchanges.

If the 2020 edition has been updated/corrected, that's good to hear. I was referring to the most recent version that I have (2019), which does show the new I-95 interchange but kept the green color on the free portion of the Turnpike in that area. Also note the misleading positioning of the toll barrier on the PA side of the river crossing.

There is a toll there...just for SB/WB traffic though.

The barrier/AET gantry should be located to the right of the US 13 interchange; that's what Brian is referring to.  The 2020 edition corrected such by moving the interchange square along I-95 away (to the left) from US 13 and adding a free highway line (discussed earlier) linking the 2 roads (I-95 & US 13).

In defense of the 2019 edition still showing the entire Turnpike stretch in that vicinity as tolled; such came out months prior to the actual opening of the new connector ramps, so it was still correct when published... incorrect location of the bridge AET gantry notwithstanding.  The added I-95 shield IMHO was prematurely added.

Note...You see the Betsy Ross & US 1 bridges shown in the pic.  Note they're shown as toll roads, even though they're one way tolls...and NO ONE HAS EVER SAID ANYTHING.

With all due respect, you know darn well that nobody in this thread nor in the 2020 Rand McNally thread was referring to any one-way toll barriers and/or crossings when commenting about what stretches should be shown as tolled. 

On many (at least Rand McNally) maps that show said-tolled crossings as two lines rather than one thick (highway) line; only the direction that is tolled is indeed shown as such.

That's why I've maintained people are being overly anal about how the new 95 routing is being portrayed.

IIRC, such has been mentioned before upthread; the comments regarding such are in reference to consistency as towards how other tolled sections of I-95, mainly in DE & MD, are shown.

[PHLBOS]

Sign Update:

Some of the pull-through signs along the I-95 portion of the NJ Turnpike between Exits 9 (not a typo, I will elaborate below) through 7 have recently been replaced with signs showing I-95 shields.

Observations as of this past Labor Day weekend (Aug. 30 & Sept. 2):

Northbound outer corridor:  Despite prior signs leaving a space for future I-95 shields to be added, the NTPA replaced the entire panels (regardless of whether such read THRU TRAFFIC or New York) with ones that read in a 2-line layout

95 NJTP NORTH
New York City

Replacements were done at Exit 8, 8A & 9; even though the pull-through at Exit 9 already had an I-95 shield on it (sign layout was in a vertical/stacked format that had space for a control city although none was listed).  I guess the NJTA is standardizing/rationalizing its pull-through sign format because such along that stretch varied based on when/which project such were erected.

Southbound inner corridor: as with the northbound panels, the entire panels were replaced rather retrofitted (the wider outline of the NJTP shield on the newer signs being the dead give-away).  Replacements were done at Exit 8A, 8 & 7A.  As expected, Trenton is used as a control city for the signs at 8A & 8 while the pull-through at Exit 7A (I-195) uses Camden.  Exit 7A is now the northernmost location for where Camden is used on a southbound pull-through sign.

No changes for any of the Exit 7 pull-through signs as of yet & I have no info. regarding any revisions/retrofits to the ramp signs on the Turnpike side of the toll plazas.

[NJRoadfan]

I guess the City of Brotherly Love gets no love from its neighbors. Philadelphia got snubbed as a control city again.

[jaip]

They should use Philly on pull thrus at exit 7a and 7 and Camden at exit 6.

[famartin]

I guess the City of Brotherly Love gets no love from its neighbors. Philadelphia got snubbed as a control city again.

Someone elsewhere claimed this was because PennDOT snubs other states. I have no idea if this is true, but it was used as a rational for why MD doesn't use Philly on I-95 (oddly, Philly IS used on US 1 in MD around the Bel Air Bypass, lol)

[Alps]

I guess the City of Brotherly Love gets no love from its neighbors. Philadelphia got snubbed as a control city again.

The Turnpike doesn't go to Philadelphia. That's why. Philly is signed from the appropriate exits.

[famartin]

I guess the City of Brotherly Love gets no love from its neighbors. Philadelphia got snubbed as a control city again.

The Turnpike doesn't go to Philadelphia. That's why. Philly is signed from the appropriate exits.

95 does though.  We can circle this argument forever I suppose... but most turnpike traffic isn't long haul (ie bypassing Philly).  Its either traffic moving between the NYC and Philly metros and/or traffic moving between individual exits on the turnpike itself (regional and local).

[Alps]

I guess the City of Brotherly Love gets no love from its neighbors. Philadelphia got snubbed as a control city again.

The Turnpike doesn't go to Philadelphia. That's why. Philly is signed from the appropriate exits.

95 does though.  We can circle this argument forever I suppose... but most turnpike traffic isn't long haul (ie bypassing Philly).  Its either traffic moving between the NYC and Philly metros and/or traffic moving between individual exits on the turnpike itself (regional and local).

Source?

[bzakharin]

I guess the City of Brotherly Love gets no love from its neighbors. Philadelphia got snubbed as a control city again.

The Turnpike doesn't go to Philadelphia. That's why. Philly is signed from the appropriate exits.

The Turnpike doesn't go to Camden, and certainly not to Trenton. It could be argued that Philadelphia should have been on there all along. After all, it was signed at Exit 4.

[jeffandnicole]

Nor does it enter Wilmington, DE either.

Speaking of, because I research all my statements (hahahahaha), I pulled up Wilmington on Google Maps.  Couldn't help notice the red lines on the NJ side, representing Delaware's ownership of the river in the area.  But then take a close look just to the left of 'Carney's Point' on the NJ side here:  https://goo.gl/maps/TGe66KXdH6fgFqrs8 .  There's a small box on the NJ side that would show there's a slight bit of Wilmington over there, or rather, a strip of land and what appears to be a lagoon... https://goo.gl/maps/NtYnqdpbWmHsJ95C8

[famartin]

I guess the City of Brotherly Love gets no love from its neighbors. Philadelphia got snubbed as a control city again.

The Turnpike doesn't go to Philadelphia. That's why. Philly is signed from the appropriate exits.

95 does though.  We can circle this argument forever I suppose... but most turnpike traffic isn't long haul (ie bypassing Philly).  Its either traffic moving between the NYC and Philly metros and/or traffic moving between individual exits on the turnpike itself (regional and local).

Source?

Simple deduction based on AADT counts in each section.

[ixnay]

I guess the City of Brotherly Love gets no love from its neighbors. Philadelphia got snubbed as a control city again.

The Turnpike doesn't go to Philadelphia. That's why. Philly is signed from the appropriate exits.

95 does though.  We can circle this argument forever I suppose... but most turnpike traffic isn't long haul (ie bypassing Philly).  Its either traffic moving between the NYC and Philly metros and/or traffic moving between individual exits on the turnpike itself (regional and local).

Source?

Simple deduction based on AADT counts in each section.

Got links?

ixnay

[PHLBOS]

Nor does it enter Wilmington, DE either.

One could say similar New York/New York City as well.

Speaking of New York/New York City; personally, for the northbound control city & this may be picky but I would use New York rather than New York City for two reasons:

1.  Such is consistent with what's listed on signs in Delaware & Maryland.  Yes, I'm aware of the one northbound I-95 pull-through in Virginia that lists New York City as well as a couple of Delaware mileage signs listing such as well.

2.  Unlike the situation for those coming from either New England or elsewhere in New York State; the City of New York is not only the first major city in the state one encounters when coming from the I-80 corridor/GW Bridge and southward, it's the first municipality one enters upon entering the state.

I pulled up Wilmington on Google Maps.  Couldn't help notice the red lines on the NJ side, representing Delaware's ownership of the river in the area.  But then take a close look just to the left of 'Carney's Point' on the NJ side here:  https://goo.gl/maps/TGe66KXdH6fgFqrs8 .  There's a small box on the NJ side that would show there's a slight bit of Wilmington over there, or rather, a strip of land and what appears to be a lagoon... https://goo.gl/maps/NtYnqdpbWmHsJ95C8

Looking a little further south, near Fort Mott State Park, the state line appears to cut through in such a manner that the listed Delaware River Nature Reserve is in Delaware even though it's east of the river.

Very interesting/odd.  IMHO, such would be enough for its own thread topic.

[PHLBOS]

Nor does it enter Wilmington, DE either.

One could say similar New York/New York City as well.

Speaking of New York/New York City; personally, for the northbound control city & this may be picky but I would use New York rather than New York City for two reasons:

1.  Such is consistent with what's listed on signs in Delaware & Maryland.  Yes, I'm aware of the one northbound I-95 pull-through in Virginia that lists New York City as well as a couple of Delaware mileage signs listing such as well.

Connecticut tends to use "NY City" as a control city from what I remember, but I guess that's the exception instead of the rule, as is New Jersey.  Though interestingly those are the practices of the states that actually border New York State.  Another example in a bordering state is I-90/Mass Pike at I-84.

No offense but you ignored/omitted the second reason/portion of my post (reposted below w/bold emphasis added) which covers the scenario for one coming from New England as well as elsewhere in NY State that you're describing:

2.  Unlike the situation for those coming from either New England or elsewhere in New York State; the City of New York is not only the first major city in the state one encounters when coming from the I-80 corridor/GW Bridge and southward, it's the first municipality one enters upon entering the state.

[jeffandnicole]

Nor does it enter Wilmington, DE either.

One could say similar New York/New York City as well.

However, I-95 *DOES* enter New York City, which means from Exit 6 and north the signs are correct.  Going south, NJ 700 never enters Wilmington.

Of course, that's part of the whole Control City debate for the NJ Turnpike...should it be treated as I-95, in which case Philly would be an appropriate destination city going Southbound, or should it be treated as the NJ Turnpike, in which case the Control Cities will ultimately fall outside of the Turnpike.

[PHLBOS]

Nor does it enter Wilmington, DE either.

One could say similar New York/New York City as well.

However, I-95 *DOES* enter New York City, which means from Exit 6 and north the signs are correct.

I-95 also goes through Wilmington as well, but only after going through Philly & Chester first.  And while I-95 indeed enters NYC proper, those coming from the south (mainly along the NJ Turnpike) heading towards Manhattan will likely exit off earlier depending on their destination.

Of course, that's part of the whole Control City debate for the NJ Turnpike...should it be treated as I-95, in which case Philly would be an appropriate destination city going Southbound, or should it be treated as the NJ Turnpike, in which case the Control Cities will ultimately fall outside of the Turnpike.

With the exception of Newark (displayed on southbound signage north of there); the majority of control city/point/destination listings on NJ Turnpike signage (be it I-95 or NJ 700) are ones where either the Turnpike itself does not fully reach (NYC/NY & Wilmington) or it completely bypasses (Trenton & Camden).  If one views/treats the free stretch of NJTA-maintained I-95 between I-80 and the GW Bridge separate from the tolled NJ Turnpike; one could include the GW Bridge & Fort Lee listings as well to the above.

As far as listing Philly on southbound I-95/NJ Turnpike signage is concerned (aside from Exit 6 & the PA Turnpike Connector); I would recommend that Philly be at least listed on mileage signs and/or added to the current pull-through/ramp signs in addition to the listed cities of Newark, Trenton & Camden depending on location.

[jeffandnicole]

Nor does it enter Wilmington, DE either.

One could say similar New York/New York City as well.

However, I-95 *DOES* enter New York City, which means from Exit 6 and north the signs are correct.

I-95 also goes through Wilmington as well, but only after going through Philly & Chester first.  And while I-95 indeed enters NYC proper, those coming from the south (mainly along the NJ Turnpike) heading towards Manhattan will likely exit off earlier depending on their destination.

But Wilmington isn't signed on the I-95 of the Turnpike; just the NJ 700 portion.

[akotchi]

My head spins every time I see this control city debate reignite . . .

Frankly, IMHO, there is no "correct" answer in this debate because it is trying to put a square peg (requirements for control cities) in a round hole (roads that go near but not to or through such control cities).

My take, just to throw gas on the brush fire (and give me a reason for my head to spin), is below.  I will never claim to be an authority on the subject, but opinion is my admission to this debate.  Some will be consistent with what others have said (perhaps a few times), some will be different.

Trenton was an approved control city for I-95 for as long as AASHTO kept a list of them.  With the rerouting of I-95, Trenton is not on the beaten path any longer, but is accessible from routes that I-95 accesses.  It does not necessarily have to be retained as a control city.  Pennsylvania, however, addressed this from the south by showing both Trenton and New York on northbound guide signs, where space allowed, whether new or retrofitted existing panels, with New York being the default where space did not allow.  Trenton accompanies I-295 at Exit 40.  For consistency, the same should be done from the north on the Turnpike.  Between Exit 13 and Exit 8, Trenton and Philadelphia should be shown on southbound pull throughs, with Trenton disappearing at Exit 7A and Philadelphia accompanying I-95 off at Exit 6.  If space is an issue, show Philadelphia only.

South of Exit 6 on the Turnpike, control cities are derived from a different approach.  I borrow from N.J.'s westerly neighbor to state that the Pa. Turnpike does not go to Philadelphia, Harrisburg or Pittsburgh, the three control cities most often shown on pull-throughs, but passes near them and has exits that go there.  There are numerous examples on the free highways where a specific route number does not go into a city (I-80 to New York, I-70 to Washington, for examples) -- control cities are neither an exact nor absolute science, but pull-through and exit control cities are the bread crumb trail that can be followed from a long way out even if the route numbers are covered.  Given this philosophy, Camden is fine south of Exit 6 to Exit 3.  Wilmington is the nearest city to the end of the Turnpike, so it would be used from Exit 3 down through I-295 across the DMB.

Northbound approaching New York City is a different animal that I may address another time.  I do wonder, though, why Newark is not included as a northbound control city.

Thing are the way they are because there are many different state and toll agencies (in many states) at work that consider this issue differently enough (including whether changes are worth it) that there are inconsistencies or snubs.  The MUTCD may be there to encourage consistency, but it is a toothless document with standards and guidelines (after all, it was created in 1935) that is viewed differently by the various agencies.  It it perfect . . . hell no, and it never will be.  Do we, as roadgeeks (or even practitioners) like it . . . not really.  The motoring public seems to get around, though, at least for the most part.

Now I feel better.  Perhaps it was the Motrin.  Thanks for reading.

[KEVIN_224]

A couple of I-90/Massachusetts Turnpike pull-through signs list WORCESTER and/or SPRINGFIELD when leaving Boston or getting on from I-95. The Pike passes south of Worcester (closest is at Exit 10A) and north of Springfield (accessed via Exits 4 or 6).

Anyways, getting back to PA again...how is work progressing on the Scudders Falls bridge at the NJ line?

[ekt8750]

Anyways, getting back to PA again...how is work progressing on the Scudders Falls bridge at the NJ line?

What will ultimately be the westbound span is finished and all traffic has been routed to it. The old span is being demolished now.

[KEVIN_224]

Ah memories! This is from the last time I remember crossing it. We were entering PA in June of 2014 (ultimately went to baseball in Wilmington, DE but stayed overnight in Elkton, MD).