Phoenix Area Highways

[roadfro]

I noticed they were cutting in grooves for the sensors this past weekend as well.  I thought that was a bit odd, considering that might have been installed concurrently with road construction.

I think detection loops are usually cut in after paving takes place. It seems like it would be more complex to lay out inductive loops and pave around them–cement can shift as it settles, and asphalt is typically compacted.

Or it could be that the loops are being installed under a separate ITS construction package from the main paving work contract.

[roadwaywiz95]

For this upcoming weekend's Webinar presentation, we'll be taking a look at the freeway system in and around Phoenix, AZ, one of America's largest cities and a cultural crossroads of the nation. Coverage will begin on Saturday (5/9) at 6 PM ET and will feature live contributions from members of this forum; we hope to see you there!

[Pink Jazz]

I noticed today on the Loop 101 Price Freeway they replaced the Daktronics character matrix LED DMS with the new full matrix color Daktronics DMS, and they are already operational.

[Pink Jazz]

Looks like on the newly widened Loop 101 Price Freeway ADOT has decided to go with diamond grind concrete pavement instead of putting a rubberized asphalt overlay.  ADOT has tested portions of diamond grind concrete on portions of the Loop 202 SanTan (initially a small strip east of the Loop 101 Price Freeway, and more recently on all lanes west of the Loop 101 Price Freeway).  Looks like ADOT wants to go with a longer-lasting pavement while still trying to reduce noise to lower lifecycle costs.

[Plutonic Panda]

That is great! I wish Los Angeles would go with concrete on main arterials. I'm fine with asphalt in neighborhoods but concrete is longer lasting and I prefer it aesthetically.

[Sonic99]

Looks like on the newly widened Loop 101 Price Freeway ADOT has decided to go with diamond grind concrete pavement instead of putting a rubberized asphalt overlay.  ADOT has tested portions of diamond grind concrete on portions of the Loop 202 SanTan (initially a small strip east of the Loop 101 Price Freeway, and more recently on all lanes west of the Loop 101 Price Freeway).  Looks like ADOT wants to go with a longer-lasting pavement while still trying to reduce noise to lower lifecycle costs.

I have seen comments on ADOT posts about that and ADOT has acknowledged that the rubberized asphalt isn't living up to their standards and they are looking at phasing it out. Curious how the diamond grind will go. I remember as a kid, the "whistle" that the concrete lanes would make. It would put my sister to sleep within just a couple miles.

[dfwmapper]

From an ADOT email last week:

A stretch of the Loop 101 Price Freeway in the southeast Valley will undergo a specialized concrete smoothing process in the coming months as part of a regional analysis of Phoenix-area freeway pavements.

The Arizona Department of Transportation is widening Loop 101 in this area as part of a $60 million improvement project that started in May 2019 and is scheduled for completion this fall.

The Maricopa Association of Governments (MAG), the Phoenix region's freeway planning agency, supports ADOT's upcoming work to diamond grind the concrete surface along the Price Freeway between Baseline Road and Loop 202 (Santan Freeway).

The diamond grinding, which is expected to start Friday, May 8, involves the use of machines with diamond-tipped blades on rotating drums to smooth a freeway's existing concrete pavement while also creating grooves designed to limit vehicle tire noise.

MAG and ADOT have partnered on an analysis of pavement treatments used to limit noise generated by tires as vehicles travel on Valley freeways. Many of the region's urban freeways were resurfaced more than 10 years ago with a 1-inch top layer of noise-reducing rubberized asphalt.

At a time when the service life of numerous rubberized asphalt overlays has been extended beyond an anticipated 10 years, ADOT and MAG have faced decisions about long-term costs associated with pavement wear over time. That includes whether to resurface a freeway with rubberized asphalt or use an alternative surface treatment such as diamond grinding a freeway's concrete pavement.

ADOT recently gained experience with replacing older rubberized asphalt overlays by diamond grinding three areas along Loop 202 (Santan Freeway) in Chandler. Those locations are examples where the worn asphalt pavement was in place well beyond its planned service life, resulting in rough surface conditions. Diamond grinding provided a much improved, smooth concrete driving surface.

Older rubberized asphalt was removed from the Price Freeway south of US 60 last year as part of ADOT's widening project. MAG supports the expanded use of diamond grinding within the project's boundaries as consideration is given to additional research about different pavement surfaces, long-term costs and efforts to limit noise along regional freeways.

So it's not so much that rubberized asphalt doesn't work, it just has a specific design life and needs regular resurfacing, which costs money. Not to get too far into politics, but Arizona is still a red state (for now, anyway) and their budget is as fucked up as you would expect from that. MAG's priority is on highly visible improvements like upgrading stop signs to stoplights, adding turn lanes, and adding new freeway miles, so maintenance gets left behind. And Maricopa County has a high freeway lane mile count for the population compared to other major metro areas, so that doesn't help either.

[aboges26]

From an ADOT email last week:

A stretch of the Loop 101 Price Freeway in the southeast Valley will undergo a specialized concrete smoothing process in the coming months as part of a regional analysis of Phoenix-area freeway pavements.

The Arizona Department of Transportation is widening Loop 101 in this area as part of a $60 million improvement project that started in May 2019 and is scheduled for completion this fall.

The Maricopa Association of Governments (MAG), the Phoenix region’s freeway planning agency, supports ADOT’s upcoming work to diamond grind the concrete surface along the Price Freeway between Baseline Road and Loop 202 (Santan Freeway).

The diamond grinding, which is expected to start Friday, May 8, involves the use of machines with diamond-tipped blades on rotating drums to smooth a freeway’s existing concrete pavement while also creating grooves designed to limit vehicle tire noise.

MAG and ADOT have partnered on an analysis of pavement treatments used to limit noise generated by tires as vehicles travel on Valley freeways. Many of the region’s urban freeways were resurfaced more than 10 years ago with a 1-inch top layer of noise-reducing rubberized asphalt.

At a time when the service life of numerous rubberized asphalt overlays has been extended beyond an anticipated 10 years, ADOT and MAG have faced decisions about long-term costs associated with pavement wear over time. That includes whether to resurface a freeway with rubberized asphalt or use an alternative surface treatment such as diamond grinding a freeway’s concrete pavement.

ADOT recently gained experience with replacing older rubberized asphalt overlays by diamond grinding three areas along Loop 202 (Santan Freeway) in Chandler. Those locations are examples where the worn asphalt pavement was in place well beyond its planned service life, resulting in rough surface conditions. Diamond grinding provided a much improved, smooth concrete driving surface.

Older rubberized asphalt was removed from the Price Freeway south of US 60 last year as part of ADOT’s widening project. MAG supports the expanded use of diamond grinding within the project’s boundaries as consideration is given to additional research about different pavement surfaces, long-term costs and efforts to limit noise along regional freeways.

So it's not so much that rubberized asphalt doesn't work, it just has a specific design life and needs regular resurfacing, which costs money. Not to get too far into politics, but Arizona is still a red state (for now, anyway) and their budget is as fucked up as you would expect from that. MAG's priority is on highly visible improvements like upgrading stop signs to stoplights, adding turn lanes, and adding new freeway miles, so maintenance gets left behind. And Maricopa County has a high freeway lane mile count for the population compared to other major metro areas, so that doesn't help either.

Is rubberized asphalt not living up to ADOT standards due to the extreme heat it endures in the Arizona summer or is it something to do with the product itself?

[roadwaywiz95]

Our next installment in the *weekly* live broadcast over on 'roadwaywiz' will be this double-header Virtual Tour presentation, where we dissect and enjoy a full-length trip along the belt highway encircling Phoenix, AZ and the infamous 405 Freeway around Los Angeles in real time, complete with commentary and contributions from admins/moderators/members of this forum.

The event will kick off on Saturday (5/16) at 6 PM ET and we look forward to seeing you there!

[Pink Jazz]

Is rubberized asphalt not living up to ADOT standards due to the extreme heat it endures in the Arizona summer or is it something to do with the product itself?

In fact, rubberized asphalt is supposed to perform better in warm climates than in cold climates, since it is generally less resistant to freeze-thaw cycles than conventional asphalt.

[JKRhodes]

It holds up well until dirt gets in it. ADOT redid the Safford-Thatcher stretch in 2004 with a one inch rubberized asphalt friction course. The top layer fell apart rather quickly after the local farms started plowing and the tractors tracked mud clods onto the highway.

[dfwmapper]

Is rubberized asphalt not living up to ADOT standards due to the extreme heat it endures in the Arizona summer or is it something to do with the product itself?

Your question is incorrect. Rubberized asphalt (at least in urban areas) lives up to ADOT's standard, which is a 10 year lifetime. The problem is political. I know politics are frowned upon on this forum, but it's directly relevant here, and therefore allowed. Arizona passed SB 1070 in 2010, and that resulted in a massive exodus of undocumented immigrants from the state. Those people were paying taxes, and the loss of that tax base combined with the recession beforehand fucked up the state's budget situation, and it still hasn't recovered. ADOT barely has enough money for basic upkeep in most of the state, and the only reason the Phoenix freeway system has been built out at all is because of the additional sales tax in Maricopa County. Even then, it's not enough to fund all the new construction plus maintenance, and that leads to decisions about where to spend the money. MAG has decided that rebuilding the Broadway Curve is more important than keeping the freeways paved with rubberized asphalt, so I-10 is going to be 24 lanes or whatever between the 60 and 143, and all the old rubberized asphalt elsewhere is getting stripped off and the concrete ground down to try to limit the tire whine.

[jakeroot]

^^^^
That's a metric fuck-tonne of assumptions, mate. Not to mention, incredibly political.

[Max Rockatansky]

^^^^
That's a metric fuck-tonne of assumptions, mate. Not to mention, incredibly political.

Keep in mind it's from a guy from Dallas Fort Worth and not someone from Arizona.  SB1070 was pretty much down hard by the Federal Government before it even took effect..if I recall only one provision was actually deemed constitutional..  How the hell anyone would think that garbage law has any ramifications on ADOT projects a decade later eludes my understanding. 

[dfwmapper]

I'm not making any comments on whether the law was right or wrong, I'm just saying that it passed and had a significant effect on the population of the state. Arizona lost about 100,000 Hispanic residents in the 6 months after it passed and who knows how many more after that. Yes, large portions of the law were eventually shot down by SCOTUS because immigration is a federal thing, but it took over 2 years from the time it was signed in to law until that decision came down, and the damage was done by that point. The part allowing cops to ask for documentation when stopping someone for unrelated reasons also remained in effect, and that has to have a significant impact on immigrants, documented or otherwise, deciding whether to live in Arizona or some other state that isn't as hostile to them. Again, not making a comment on whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, just that it is a thing. Arizona does have plenty of other problems with funding (chief among them, a low gas tax and a population that wants to have their cake and eat it too), but most of those date back to the 90s and 80s, while ADOT's situation has seen a much steeper decline in the last decade.

And FWIW, I've spent more of my life in Phoenix than I have in DFW. Just because I don't live there now doesn't mean I don't keep up with what's happening.

[Max Rockatansky]

I'm not making any comments on whether the law was right or wrong, I'm just saying that it passed and had a significant effect on the population of the state. Arizona lost about 100,000 Hispanic residents in the 6 months after it passed and who knows how many more after that. Yes, large portions of the law were eventually shot down by SCOTUS because immigration is a federal thing, but it took over 2 years from the time it was signed in to law until that decision came down, and the damage was done by that point. The part allowing cops to ask for documentation when stopping someone for unrelated reasons also remained in effect, and that has to have a significant impact on immigrants, documented or otherwise, deciding whether to live in Arizona or some other state that isn't as hostile to them. Again, not making a comment on whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, just that it is a thing. Arizona does have plenty of other problems with funding (chief among them, a low gas tax and a population that wants to have their cake and eat it too), but most of those date back to the 90s and 80s, while ADOT's situation has seen a much steeper decline in the last decade.

And FWIW, I've spent more of my life in Phoenix than I have in DFW. Just because I don't live there now doesn't mean I don't keep up with what's happening.

Okay, that is a more rational way of presenting what you were getting at.  Nonetheless I think there would need to be a fairly strong paper trail to show causation (which may or may not exist?) with general funding in Arizona.  Around the same time SB1070 was going through the motion the entire housing market in Arizona essentially collapsed along with much of the state economy.  That wasn't an instant recovery and was one of the largest contributing factors as to why I ultimately left the state, I couldn't find a viable job that didn't have me on the road half the year.

[Roadwarriors79]

A few of the valley cities are installing newer, thinner LED street name signs to use at signalized intersections. Most don't seem to use Clearview, except in Phoenix and Peoria. I actually saw a few NON Clearview signs in Phoenix recently. They were along 59th Ave where the new section of Loop 202 is.

[jakeroot]

A few of the valley cities are installing newer, thinner LED street name signs to use at signalized intersections. Most don't seem to use Clearview, except in Phoenix and Peoria. I actually saw a few NON Clearview signs in Phoenix recently. They were along 59th Ave where the new section of Loop 202 is.

I would have thought the novelty of non-Clearview signs would have worn away by now. Is Clearview still that common parts of Arizona?

It's one of the few places where I've seen multiple Clearview speed limit signs, although I figured the "Clearview no matter what" era would have passed by now, and perhaps Clearview altogether.

[Pink Jazz]

A few of the valley cities are installing newer, thinner LED street name signs to use at signalized intersections. Most don't seem to use Clearview, except in Phoenix and Peoria. I actually saw a few NON Clearview signs in Phoenix recently. They were along 59th Ave where the new section of Loop 202 is.

Chandler and Queen Creek are still using the larger box type, although I think the new installations have LED kits pre-installed instead of fluorescent tubes.  Also, Tempe is still using those "Modular" traffic posts with the integrated sign.

Oddly, Chandler seems to be using Clearview for non-signalized intersections, but is using Helvetica for their signalized intersections.

[Roadwarriors79]

A few of the valley cities are installing newer, thinner LED street name signs to use at signalized intersections. Most don't seem to use Clearview, except in Phoenix and Peoria. I actually saw a few NON Clearview signs in Phoenix recently. They were along 59th Ave where the new section of Loop 202 is.

I would have thought the novelty of non-Clearview signs would have worn away by now. Is Clearview still that common parts of Arizona?

It's one of the few places where I've seen multiple Clearview speed limit signs, although I figured the "Clearview no matter what" era would have passed by now, and perhaps Clearview altogether.

Non-Clearview lighted street signs for traffic signals are rare in the city of Phoenix. I haven't noticed NEW Clearview installations anywhere else in the valley lately (other than Peoria).

[jakeroot]

A few of the valley cities are installing newer, thinner LED street name signs to use at signalized intersections. Most don't seem to use Clearview, except in Phoenix and Peoria. I actually saw a few NON Clearview signs in Phoenix recently. They were along 59th Ave where the new section of Loop 202 is.

I would have thought the novelty of non-Clearview signs would have worn away by now. Is Clearview still that common parts of Arizona?

It's one of the few places where I've seen multiple Clearview speed limit signs, although I figured the "Clearview no matter what" era would have passed by now, and perhaps Clearview altogether.

Non-Clearview lighted street signs for traffic signals are rare in the city of Phoenix. I haven't noticed NEW Clearview installations anywhere else in the valley lately (other than Peoria).

Gotcha. Credit to Phoenix for at least doing a good job using Clearview. I'd be surprised if, at the end of the day, Phoenix ever switched back to FHWA for a couple reasons: (1) street blades generally are exempt for typeface requirements anyway, and (2) their usage of Clearview is more than legible; if they already went through the trouble of switching their standards to adjust for Clearview, I don't see why they'd need to move back to FHWA for what is, at best, a negligible gain in readability (if any at all).

[Roadwarriors79]

A couple pics of the newer signs in Phoenix:

SM-G975U

[stevashe]

(1) street blades generally are exempt for typeface requirements anyway.

As far as I know, there is no such exemption; some cities just use other fonts because they think they can get away with it (and for the most part, they can).

[roadfro]

(1) street blades generally are exempt for typeface requirements anyway.

As far as I know, there is no such exemption; some cities just use other fonts because they think they can get away with it (and for the most part, they can).

Correct. All sign lettering is to use standard alphabets (except where Clearview is allowed via Interim Approval).

Section 2A.13 Word Messages

Standard:
01 Except as provided in Section 2A.06, all word messages shall use standard wording and letters as shown in this Manual and in the "Standard Highway Signs and Markings" book (see Section 1A.11).

[ztonyg]

Are there any plans to complete the stack at US 60 and Loop 101?

ADOT built high speed ramps from S/B 101 to E/B 60 and from N/B 101 to W/B 60 but the E/B 60 to N/B 101 and W/B 60 to S/B 101 were built on the cheap due to budget issues early 1990s. It seems that the space and provisions are there (including a sign assembly on W/B 60 to N/B 101 ramp that clearly is intended to allow for a connection to a W/B 60 to S/B 101 ramp) to complete the other two high speed movements and make it a symmetrical stack.

The interchange essentially functions as a cloverstack without the loops and the low speed movements are rather frightening unlike the turbine-stack hybrid a few miles north at Loop 101 and Loop 202 which functions relatively well.