Title: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on July 12, 2019, 04:23:31 PM
Post by: monty on July 12, 2019, 04:23:31 PM
Released 07.12.19... Gov. Holcomb has decided to use the $300 million state excess to pay directly for several one-time capital projects...
(One is)... $78 million to eliminate all stoplights and rail crossings on U.S. 31 between South Bend and Indianapolis.
source: https://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/indiana-ends-budget-year-with-m-surplus-extra-money-will/article_b7df2a07-7cf9-56aa-8dc9-0333ac068a6f.html
Excellent upgrades to the corridor and also staying true to his pledge to enabling this US 31 segment to be driven "without any stops."
(One is)... $78 million to eliminate all stoplights and rail crossings on U.S. 31 between South Bend and Indianapolis.
source: https://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/indiana-ends-budget-year-with-m-surplus-extra-money-will/article_b7df2a07-7cf9-56aa-8dc9-0333ac068a6f.html
Excellent upgrades to the corridor and also staying true to his pledge to enabling this US 31 segment to be driven "without any stops."
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 12, 2019, 05:09:12 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 12, 2019, 05:09:12 PM
I don't want to see any more posts that US 31 should become Interstate 67, because outside of Fictional Highways, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN! At least not anytime soon.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: froggie on July 12, 2019, 06:18:51 PM
Post by: froggie on July 12, 2019, 06:18:51 PM
^ He didn't say anything about "Interstate 67".
Back on topic, I'm presuming Indiana law and the state constitution give the Governor the authority to direct spending like this? I don't disagree that spending surplus money on capital projects is beneficial...I'm just not familiar with states where this doesn't require legislation.
Back on topic, I'm presuming Indiana law and the state constitution give the Governor the authority to direct spending like this? I don't disagree that spending surplus money on capital projects is beneficial...I'm just not familiar with states where this doesn't require legislation.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: 3467 on July 12, 2019, 08:15:58 PM
Post by: 3467 on July 12, 2019, 08:15:58 PM
There was an EIS in the federal register last week for a North South. Corridor South of 69 in the area between 231 and 37. I did not as a it in their long term plan it the 31 improvements were.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Terry Shea on July 12, 2019, 09:21:54 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on July 12, 2019, 09:21:54 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 12, 2019, 05:09:12 PMLighten up Francis.
I don't want to see any more posts that US 31 should become Interstate 67, because outside of Fictional Highways, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN! At least not anytime soon.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on July 13, 2019, 02:09:14 PM
Post by: monty on July 13, 2019, 02:09:14 PM
Back on topic, I'm presuming Indiana law and the state constitution give the Governor the authority to direct spending like this? I don't disagree that spending surplus money on capital projects is beneficial...I'm just not familiar with states where this doesn't require legislation.
[/quote]
Most all of these projects have already been in some sort of planning stage - but not all have been funded. The governor must receive support from the legislative bodies to expend the funds. Since the house and senate and governor belong to the same political party, it's pretty much a slam dunk. Certainly this speeds up these improvements in the corridor.
Side notes: Several terrible accidents at the two RR crossings recently (due to vehicles that must stop at the crossing getting rear-ended). The four remaining stoplights also have frequent and often fatal accidents. The traffic counts and speed on US 31 just make for a bad combination when drivers try to stop on or cross over the highway.
It is not a local or state (government, INDOT) or regional goal for this corridor to become a designated interstate highway. It is a goal to make it a safer ad efficient conduit of traffic. There will be a continued "drive" to push for congested and dangerous areas to be improved over time. The US 31 Coalition's ultimate goal is for an interstate quality highway from Indy to South Bend. They have been very successful in working with multiple governors and legislators over many years.
My personal opinion is that the segment from Westfield to Kokomo will be the next to be improved to an "interstate type standard" of highway because of the traffic counts, economic and population growth in the area and safety needs. This will probably not happen anytime soon. More likely, troubled areas will get individual attention from INDOT as needed and the corridor will be improved piecemeal - much as these announced projects are being proposed.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 15, 2019, 08:07:02 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 15, 2019, 08:07:02 AM
Most interested to see what they will do with the light at 100N in Miami County. It seems to be too close to the the US 24 interchange to build another interchange, but I can't imagine it just getting overpassed or cul-de-sacced (is that a word) with the huge truck stop there. Perhaps they put the interchange at 425W by the state police post and then provide access to the truck stop from that point.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: thefarmerchris on July 15, 2019, 10:01:25 AM
Post by: thefarmerchris on July 15, 2019, 10:01:25 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on July 15, 2019, 08:07:02 AM
Most interested to see what they will do with the light at 100N in Miami County. It seems to be too close to the the US 24 interchange to build another interchange, but I can't imagine it just getting overpassed or cul-de-sacced (is that a word) with the huge truck stop there. Perhaps they put the interchange at 425W by the state police post and then provide access to the truck stop from that point.
That would be the most logical way to go......
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: jnewkirk77 on July 15, 2019, 11:10:19 AM
Post by: jnewkirk77 on July 15, 2019, 11:10:19 AM
Quote from: 3467 on July 12, 2019, 08:15:58 PM
There was an EIS in the federal register last week for a North South. Corridor South of 69 in the area between 231 and 37. I did not as a it in their long term plan it the 31 improvements were.
That's for the proposed Mid-States Corridor, which would connect I-165 in Kentucky with either I-69 near Washington or SR 37 near Bedford. The main features are that it would use US 231 through Spencer County and bypass Huntingburg and Jasper. The study is to determine which would be the better route. It's worthy of its own thread, but here's some info:
http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/40772909/proposed-southwest-indiana-highway-project-gains-speed
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: roadman65 on July 15, 2019, 11:29:37 AM
Post by: roadman65 on July 15, 2019, 11:29:37 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 12, 2019, 05:09:12 PMUS 31 does not even have to be interstate as US 15 and 301 in Maryland are even expressway grades without stop lights. East of the US 50 split US 301 is all at grade with a few grade separations and NO STOPLIGHTS! US 15 from the PA line to I-70 is the same way so going from the Capital Beltway near DC to Gettysburg, PA using I-270 and US 15 has no stop traffic (unless heavy volume or crash) on the whole entire route.
I don't want to see any more posts that US 31 should become Interstate 67, because outside of Fictional Highways, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN! At least not anytime soon.
No for right now, US 31 is concentrated on getting rid of the lights. Even with the Westfield, Kokomo, and Plymouth to South Bend Freeways are the beginning of just an upgrade for US 31, which is a major truck haul and through route from the Indy area to Michigan. The overall plan is just upgrades for now. I-67 is far from the state's minds, but that does not mean it won't happen either as things change on a day to day basis these days. We have all been surprised before at sudden interstates appearing. Look at NC for one, how many out of the blue projects have arisen and a month late an application to the feds to have it approved as future interstate xx.
Right now upgrading US 31 is not that difficult as most is four lanes already and the key areas of problems were addressed in the Kokomo bypass as well as the Westfield, Plymouth, and South Bend freeway realignments, but after driving it 11 years ago I can say its prime candidate for upgrades. Interstate would be nice, but even expressway not part of the system I am not going to hope either INDOT do what NCDOT does and propose every existing route to become an interstate.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 15, 2019, 11:51:05 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 15, 2019, 11:51:05 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 12, 2019, 05:09:12 PM
I don't want to see any more posts that US 31 should become Interstate 67, because outside of Fictional Highways, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN! At least not anytime soon.
If the entirety of US 31 from Indy to St. Joseph is eventually upgraded to freeway, then I have no problem with Indiana and Michigan asking for an interstate designation.
I do have a problem with making all of the upgrades just to get the interstate designation.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on July 15, 2019, 07:36:04 PM
Post by: I-39 on July 15, 2019, 07:36:04 PM
It will be a long time before US 31 is full freeway between South Bend and Indianapolis, there just isn't a need for full access control along the entire corridor yet. Removing the stoplights and rail crossings will go a long way.
That said, it's pretty obvious the long range plan is to make the corridor a freeway and designate it an Interstate, it's just super low on the priority list (as it should be).
That said, it's pretty obvious the long range plan is to make the corridor a freeway and designate it an Interstate, it's just super low on the priority list (as it should be).
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: 3467 on July 15, 2019, 07:44:23 PM
Post by: 3467 on July 15, 2019, 07:44:23 PM
The Mid State should have it's own thread. It's the only new road I seen in Indian plans.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ilpt4u on July 15, 2019, 08:05:16 PM
Post by: ilpt4u on July 15, 2019, 08:05:16 PM
Quote from: 3467 on July 15, 2019, 07:44:23 PMUmm...It does. Since its more Southern IN, it is on the Ohio River Valley board
The Mid State should have it's own thread. It's the only new road I seen in Indian plans.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25352.0
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: 3467 on July 15, 2019, 08:14:34 PM
Post by: 3467 on July 15, 2019, 08:14:34 PM
Whoops!
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Life in Paradise on July 16, 2019, 12:41:51 PM
Post by: Life in Paradise on July 16, 2019, 12:41:51 PM
The far majority of the people that travel from South Bend to Indianapolis on US 31 will jump for joy when the last light is removed. They won't care about whether or not there is a red and blue interstate sign on it. You might have business leaders from Kokomo, Peru, Rochester, Plymouth, and South Bend talk about an interstate designation, but those who drive it will just be glad to set their cruise on and travel non-stop from one city to the other.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: bmeiser on July 16, 2019, 01:07:06 PM
Post by: bmeiser on July 16, 2019, 01:07:06 PM
I suppose a benefit for casual drivers would be the higher speed limit that comes with an interstate in Indiana, or even full grade separation for that matter. It seems the max for full grade separation of a non-interstate in a non-urban area (Kokomo bypass, Peru to South Bend segment) is 65 and 60 for non-grade separated highways (current, non-upgraded 31). Not that anybody really follows the speed limit on 31, but legally being able to go 5-10 miles an hour faster would be nice.
But I agree with what's been posted. Baby steps are the answer and a stop free drive will help wonders!
But I agree with what's been posted. Baby steps are the answer and a stop free drive will help wonders!
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 16, 2019, 03:03:33 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 16, 2019, 03:03:33 PM
Quote from: bmeiser on July 16, 2019, 01:07:06 PM
I suppose a benefit for casual drivers would be the higher speed limit that comes with an interstate in Indiana, or even full grade separation for that matter. It seems the max for full grade separation of a non-interstate in a non-urban area (Kokomo bypass, Peru to South Bend segment) is 65 and 60 for non-grade separated highways (current, non-upgraded 31). Not that anybody really follows the speed limit on 31, but legally being able to go 5-10 miles an hour faster would be nice.
But I agree with what's been posted. Baby steps are the answer and a stop free drive will help wonders!
Yes, max speed limit is 70 for interstates, 65 for non-interstate freeways, and 60 for 4+ lane non-freeways.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: nwi_navigator_1181 on July 16, 2019, 10:27:09 PM
Post by: nwi_navigator_1181 on July 16, 2019, 10:27:09 PM
Even though it doesn't directly affect me, I think having US 31 as a freeway from Indy to South Bend is a must. As of now, the only major freeways north of Indianapolis serve specific sectors, be it Chicago and Northwest Indiana (I-65) or Fort Wayne, Anderson, Muncie, and Lansing (I-69). Interstate designation or not, having free flow to Kokomo, Plymouth, South Bend, and (eventually) Grand Rapids, will be a boon for those living along the corridor.
As a long-range, positive side effect, this could be a blueprint for how to do the same thing to US 30 from Valparaiso to Fort Wayne if and when that project is explored.
As a long-range, positive side effect, this could be a blueprint for how to do the same thing to US 30 from Valparaiso to Fort Wayne if and when that project is explored.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 17, 2019, 07:33:03 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 17, 2019, 07:33:03 AM
The section between Plymouth and Peru would be fine without being upgraded to freeway. Less traffic than the rest of the highway, at least it always seems that way, and very few high volume intersections. I would hate to see money going to converting the Plymouth-Peru stretch before money in committed to six-laning the rest of I-65 and I-70.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 17, 2019, 04:14:09 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 17, 2019, 04:14:09 PM
It appears I overreacted when I made my post on July 12. I apologize. My intention was to nip the "US 31 should be Interstate 67" complaint in the bud, but it appears such was unnecessary. At any rate, I think US 31 should be completely-freeway from Indianapolis to South Bend. It likely will be eventually.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on July 17, 2019, 07:56:35 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on July 17, 2019, 07:56:35 PM
Personally, I'd make the rest of US 31 from SR 38 north to the Kokomo bypass a full freeway next with several exits along the way. At the same time they could eliminate the Miami County intersections and turn them into interchanges but leave the rest of the highway an expressway. Once the Westfield-to-Kokomo stretch is finished then work on the Kokomo-to-Peru stretch in conversion to a full freeway. Then see where you are if you want to make the rest of it an interstate.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: dvferyance on July 18, 2019, 09:20:21 PM
Post by: dvferyance on July 18, 2019, 09:20:21 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 12, 2019, 05:09:12 PMI am just wondering why that idea bothers you. Makes more sense that many of the other wacky interstate proposals I have heard.
I don't want to see any more posts that US 31 should become Interstate 67, because outside of Fictional Highways, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN! At least not anytime soon.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Henry on July 19, 2019, 09:41:35 AM
Post by: Henry on July 19, 2019, 09:41:35 AM
As the old saying goes, "que sera sera." I'd be cool with the freeway remaining US 31. And everyone (well, except for FritzOwl) knows, not everything needs an Interstate shield slapped on it.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 19, 2019, 06:29:14 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 19, 2019, 06:29:14 PM
Well, dvferance, I don't think the corridor needs an Interstate designation, even though the 67 designation would fit the grid. I do think the US 31 corridor between Indianapolis and South Bend should be completely freeway, just keep it US 31. After the Interstate binges North Carolina and Texas have gone on, I don't think other states should follow their lead. Besides, if the Indianapolis-to-South Bend corridor were to get an Interstate designation, such a designation should continue into Michigan (perhaps to Grand Rapids). I don't think that would be illogical.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: dvferyance on July 19, 2019, 08:06:20 PM
Post by: dvferyance on July 19, 2019, 08:06:20 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 19, 2019, 06:29:14 PMI didn't think US 41 in Wisconsin should have become an interstate but it did.
Well, dvferance, I don't think the corridor needs an Interstate designation, even though the 67 designation would fit the grid. I do think the US 31 corridor between Indianapolis and South Bend should be completely freeway, just keep it US 31. After the Interstate binges North Carolina and Texas have gone on, I'm don't think other states should follow their lead. Besides, if the Indianapolis-to-South Bend corridor were to get an Interstate designation, such a designation should continue into Michigan (perhaps to Grand Rapids). I don't think that would be illogical.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on July 19, 2019, 08:43:30 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on July 19, 2019, 08:43:30 PM
Something to consider as well on any potential interstate conversion along US 31, the interchange with US 20 in South Bend would have to be reconfigured since US 31 north has to follow a loop ramp onto the US 20/US 31 bypass. I'm sure INDOT would be in no hurry to do to it what they had to do down in Kentucky at a couple of the new I-69 interchanges with various parkways.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: dvferyance on July 20, 2019, 06:07:29 PM
Post by: dvferyance on July 20, 2019, 06:07:29 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on July 19, 2019, 08:43:30 PMI-55 gets away with that in Memphis.
Something to consider as well on any potential interstate conversion along US 31, the interchange with US 20 in South Bend would have to be reconfigured since US 31 north has to follow a loop ramp onto the US 20/US 31 bypass. I'm sure INDOT would be in no hurry to do to it what they had to do down in Kentucky at a couple of the new I-69 interchanges with various parkways.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ilpt4u on July 20, 2019, 06:14:34 PM
Post by: ilpt4u on July 20, 2019, 06:14:34 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 20, 2019, 06:07:29 PMThere are numerous examples of current Interstates taking Loop Ramps - I-74&80 in the Quad Cities, I-80 again in NW Indiana, I-76 thru the Ohio TP Double Trumpet, I-76 @ PA TP Valley Forge exit are other prominent examples...but I believe the difference is AASHTO will not christen a new Interstate if the mainline uses a Loop Ramp - hence why KY had to build new Flyovers on the Parkways that became I-69Quote from: tdindy88 on July 19, 2019, 08:43:30 PMI-55 gets away with that in Memphis.
Something to consider as well on any potential interstate conversion along US 31, the interchange with US 20 in South Bend would have to be reconfigured since US 31 north has to follow a loop ramp onto the US 20/US 31 bypass. I'm sure INDOT would be in no hurry to do to it what they had to do down in Kentucky at a couple of the new I-69 interchanges with various parkways.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NE2 on July 20, 2019, 07:09:18 PM
Post by: NE2 on July 20, 2019, 07:09:18 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 20, 2019, 06:14:34 PMQuote from: dvferyance on July 20, 2019, 06:07:29 PMThere are numerous examples of current Interstates taking Loop Ramps - I-74&80 in the Quad Cities, I-80 again in NW Indiana, I-76 thru the Ohio TP Double Trumpet, I-76 @ PA TP Valley Forge exit are other prominent examples...but I believe the difference is AASHTO will not christen a new Interstate if the mainline uses a Loop Ramp - hence why KY had to build new Flyovers on the Parkways that became I-69Quote from: tdindy88 on July 19, 2019, 08:43:30 PMI-55 gets away with that in Memphis.
Something to consider as well on any potential interstate conversion along US 31, the interchange with US 20 in South Bend would have to be reconfigured since US 31 north has to follow a loop ramp onto the US 20/US 31 bypass. I'm sure INDOT would be in no hurry to do to it what they had to do down in Kentucky at a couple of the new I-69 interchanges with various parkways.
And Mississippi didn't have to build flyovers.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Revive 755 on July 20, 2019, 10:07:07 PM
Post by: Revive 755 on July 20, 2019, 10:07:07 PM
Nor did North Carolina when I-73 got rerouted onto the bypass at Greensboro.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ilpt4u on July 21, 2019, 01:44:46 AM
Post by: ilpt4u on July 21, 2019, 01:44:46 AM
Well, maybe its just a KYTC thing, then :hmmm:
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: hbelkins on July 21, 2019, 03:23:38 PM
Post by: hbelkins on July 21, 2019, 03:23:38 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 21, 2019, 01:44:46 AM
Well, maybe its just a KYTC thing, then :hmmm:
Trust me, Kentucky would have left the WK/Pennyrile and I-24/Purchase interchanges alone if they could have just signed I-69 and have been done with it. FHWA made signing the interstate contingent on redoing those exits.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: RoadMaster09 on July 21, 2019, 03:52:08 PM
Post by: RoadMaster09 on July 21, 2019, 03:52:08 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on July 19, 2019, 08:43:30 PM
Something to consider as well on any potential interstate conversion along US 31, the interchange with US 20 in South Bend would have to be reconfigured since US 31 north has to follow a loop ramp onto the US 20/US 31 bypass. I'm sure INDOT would be in no hurry to do to it what they had to do down in Kentucky at a couple of the new I-69 interchanges with various parkways.
Interstate or not, it should be reconfigured to eliminate that loop ramp and replace with a 2-lane flyover. I'd also get rid of the cloverleafs up the road with surface streets (replace with diamonds or partial cloverleafs).
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: 2trailertrucker on July 21, 2019, 04:01:04 PM
Post by: 2trailertrucker on July 21, 2019, 04:01:04 PM
IF the US20/US31 bypass were to be converted to a possible interstate, I think a lot of bridges would have to be rehabbed due to the lack of shoulders on them. Once you get north of the Indiana Toll Road, then the conversion would require minimal construction.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 21, 2019, 06:13:11 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 21, 2019, 06:13:11 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on July 19, 2019, 08:43:30 PM
Something to consider as well on any potential interstate conversion along US 31, the interchange with US 20 in South Bend would have to be reconfigured since US 31 north has to follow a loop ramp onto the US 20/US 31 bypass. I'm sure INDOT would be in no hurry to do to it what they had to do down in Kentucky at a couple of the new I-69 interchanges with various parkways.
That should have been done in conjunction with the South Bend-Plymouth upgrade.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Echostatic on August 01, 2019, 05:35:47 PM
Post by: Echostatic on August 01, 2019, 05:35:47 PM
[Mods feel free to move this post if it's in the wrong thread]
The project at US31 and 236th Street in Bakers Corner is moving along. Schematics for the plan to remove 7 driveways and two road crossings are available here: https://www.in.gov/indot/files/US%2031%20Interchange%20Exhibits_Feb%202019%20open%20house.pdf
I know the owners of the property at the SW corner of US31 and 236th, so when the state starts the eminent domain process I can find out. Already most of the houses from Division Rd. to Kokomo have been bought out, so the state can remove a lot of driveways in the next few years.
The project at US31 and 236th Street in Bakers Corner is moving along. Schematics for the plan to remove 7 driveways and two road crossings are available here: https://www.in.gov/indot/files/US%2031%20Interchange%20Exhibits_Feb%202019%20open%20house.pdf
I know the owners of the property at the SW corner of US31 and 236th, so when the state starts the eminent domain process I can find out. Already most of the houses from Division Rd. to Kokomo have been bought out, so the state can remove a lot of driveways in the next few years.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: SSR_317 on August 04, 2019, 02:53:58 PM
Post by: SSR_317 on August 04, 2019, 02:53:58 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on July 21, 2019, 06:13:11 PMIt was originally planned to do so, but as usual, INDOT took the "penny-wise, pound-foolish" way out and cut that from the budget.Quote from: tdindy88 on July 19, 2019, 08:43:30 PM
Something to consider as well on any potential interstate conversion along US 31, the interchange with US 20 in South Bend would have to be reconfigured since US 31 north has to follow a loop ramp onto the US 20/US 31 bypass. I'm sure INDOT would be in no hurry to do to it what they had to do down in Kentucky at a couple of the new I-69 interchanges with various parkways.
That should have been done in conjunction with the South Bend-Plymouth upgrade.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on August 13, 2019, 02:46:58 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on August 13, 2019, 02:46:58 PM
Quote from: SSR_317 on August 04, 2019, 02:53:58 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on July 21, 2019, 06:13:11 PMIt was originally planned to do so, but as usual, INDOT took the "penny-wise, pound-foolish" way out and cut that from the budget.Quote from: tdindy88 on July 19, 2019, 08:43:30 PM
Something to consider as well on any potential interstate conversion along US 31, the interchange with US 20 in South Bend would have to be reconfigured since US 31 north has to follow a loop ramp onto the US 20/US 31 bypass. I'm sure INDOT would be in no hurry to do to it what they had to do down in Kentucky at a couple of the new I-69 interchanges with various parkways.
That should have been done in conjunction with the South Bend-Plymouth upgrade.
yup was supposed to be a flyover. it's substandard approaching the exit too.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Henry on August 13, 2019, 11:24:51 PM
Post by: Henry on August 13, 2019, 11:24:51 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 13, 2019, 02:46:58 PMEven if it's not going to be I-67 (which would be the most ideal corridor, as it's between I-65 and I-69), there needs to be a correction for the interchange that will show US 31 as the through route, and a flyover would be the most ideal way to get it done. Land issues might prevent this, but it's well worth a try.Quote from: SSR_317 on August 04, 2019, 02:53:58 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on July 21, 2019, 06:13:11 PMIt was originally planned to do so, but as usual, INDOT took the "penny-wise, pound-foolish" way out and cut that from the budget.Quote from: tdindy88 on July 19, 2019, 08:43:30 PM
Something to consider as well on any potential interstate conversion along US 31, the interchange with US 20 in South Bend would have to be reconfigured since US 31 north has to follow a loop ramp onto the US 20/US 31 bypass. I'm sure INDOT would be in no hurry to do to it what they had to do down in Kentucky at a couple of the new I-69 interchanges with various parkways.
That should have been done in conjunction with the South Bend-Plymouth upgrade.
yup was supposed to be a flyover. it's substandard approaching the exit too.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on August 14, 2019, 06:48:05 PM
Post by: sparker on August 14, 2019, 06:48:05 PM
^^^^^^^^
Looking at GSV, the street overcrossing of US 31 immediately south of the US 20 cloverleaf would have to be torn down and extended (it seems pretty short as it is currently constructed) in order to accommodate the divergence point of a NB>WB flyover; that same bridge would require extension on its west end as well to accommodate a higher-speed EB>SB direct ramp. It looks like a 2-lane ramp and its merge could be accommodated within the footprint of the US 20/31 ROW. It also appears that US 31 was "squeezed" into a narrow footprint south of the interchange; this includes the foreshortened overpass. All that was likely done not so much to inhibit future US 31 upgrades (potentially to Interstate-grade) but as a money-saving measure. It's probably not necessary to configure US 31 as the through route, as long as there are reasonably high-speed connections available for the throughput of 31.
Looking at GSV, the street overcrossing of US 31 immediately south of the US 20 cloverleaf would have to be torn down and extended (it seems pretty short as it is currently constructed) in order to accommodate the divergence point of a NB>WB flyover; that same bridge would require extension on its west end as well to accommodate a higher-speed EB>SB direct ramp. It looks like a 2-lane ramp and its merge could be accommodated within the footprint of the US 20/31 ROW. It also appears that US 31 was "squeezed" into a narrow footprint south of the interchange; this includes the foreshortened overpass. All that was likely done not so much to inhibit future US 31 upgrades (potentially to Interstate-grade) but as a money-saving measure. It's probably not necessary to configure US 31 as the through route, as long as there are reasonably high-speed connections available for the throughput of 31.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: JREwing78 on August 16, 2019, 12:36:31 PM
Post by: JREwing78 on August 16, 2019, 12:36:31 PM
I suspect it's going to be about 30 years before the US-20/31 interchange becomes a real problem. At that point, it will be due for reconstruction. I'd rather see INDOT spend the money right now on removing stoplights and controlling access on other portions of US-30 and US-31.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: triplemultiplex on August 20, 2019, 11:45:36 AM
Post by: triplemultiplex on August 20, 2019, 11:45:36 AM
Quote from: sparker on August 14, 2019, 06:48:05 PM
^^^^^^^^
Looking at GSV, the street overcrossing of US 31 immediately south of the US 20 cloverleaf would have to be torn down and extended (it seems pretty short as it is currently constructed) in order to accommodate the divergence point of a NB>WB flyover; that same bridge would require extension on its west end as well to accommodate a higher-speed EB>SB direct ramp.
What streetview are you looking at? That overpass (Jackson Rd) has massive room to accommodate future turbine ramps or better. It has room for more lanes on the existing thru freeway, plus spans for future carriageways outside of that; plenty of room for all the merging one would need to upgrade that interchange at some point in the future.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on August 20, 2019, 12:42:19 PM
Post by: sparker on August 20, 2019, 12:42:19 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 20, 2019, 11:45:36 AMQuote from: sparker on August 14, 2019, 06:48:05 PM
^^^^^^^^
Looking at GSV, the street overcrossing of US 31 immediately south of the US 20 cloverleaf would have to be torn down and extended (it seems pretty short as it is currently constructed) in order to accommodate the divergence point of a NB>WB flyover; that same bridge would require extension on its west end as well to accommodate a higher-speed EB>SB direct ramp.
What streetview are you looking at? That overpass (Jackson Rd) has massive room to accommodate future turbine ramps or better. It has room for more lanes on the existing thru freeway, plus spans for future carriageways outside of that; plenty of room for all the merging one would need to upgrade that interchange at some point in the future.
Turbine-style ramps, yeah -- I was thinking more along the lines of a flyover expediting the NB 31 movement; to stay within the ROW along 20/31 just west of the present interchange, it would have to diverge from the NB 31 carriageway somewhat south of Jackson Road, necessitating the widening of the overpass. And as long as the bridge is being rebuilt, do a similar thing with the west side so the SB 31 movement could be straightened out to accommodate a 2-lane ramp of relatively high speed -- so as not to duplicate the mistake Caltrans made out here in CA with the NB movement of I-215 in Riverside -- SB has a nice high-speed 2-lane ramp, but they "chickened out" with NB, staying within the profile of the original and decidedly underpowered direct ramp. However, 15 years after the original interchange revamp, it looks like they actually bought and cleared some adjacent properties to alleviate this issue. Just hoping when and if an upgrade of the 20/31 interchange is in the planning stages that at least maintaining reasonable speed through the interchange is a consideration -- in both directions!
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on September 05, 2019, 09:31:24 PM
Post by: monty on September 05, 2019, 09:31:24 PM
Recently learned that the bridges over the NSRR north of the SR 28 interchange has been delayed by a year (again). Also that project will shift to the west, with the current northbound set of lanes becoming a frontage road for the residences on the east side of the highway, north of the railroad.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on September 06, 2019, 12:20:28 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on September 06, 2019, 12:20:28 PM
Quote from: monty on September 05, 2019, 09:31:24 PM
Recently learned that the bridges over the NSRR north of the SR 28 interchange has been delayed by a year (again). Also that project will shift to the west, with the current northbound set of lanes becoming a frontage road for the residences on the east side of the highway, north of the railroad.
Do you know why are they delaying it?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: royo6022 on September 06, 2019, 02:49:30 PM
Post by: royo6022 on September 06, 2019, 02:49:30 PM
Regardless of what 'should' or 'shouldn't' be changed about US-31 north of Indy, it has needed help for many years. The further north you travel the worse the conditions are. The last thing we should think about now is modifying it. I think the removal of stoplights for a longer stretched US highway is a good thing and that it should be done (within reason) in more areas throughout the state.
However, in other places, such as certain towns, it can be a little confusing and difficult to completely remove all stoplights from a road just to make it "quicker and easier". I have seen in Evansville where they have been doing tedious construction to remove stoplights from the Lloyd Expressway. While this seems like it may make the bypassing of Evansville quite easier and much faster, it has the potential to confuse people turning off of the Lloyd on the east side of town where there are multiple large intersections and not much signage informing drivers from out of town or those unfamiliar with the area which roads are where, or where something is located.
It's just something you have to look out for, and with US-31 I think leaving the original route how it is while some touch-ups (such as the removal of stoplights) hopefully start to improve traffic conditions over the next few years.
However, in other places, such as certain towns, it can be a little confusing and difficult to completely remove all stoplights from a road just to make it "quicker and easier". I have seen in Evansville where they have been doing tedious construction to remove stoplights from the Lloyd Expressway. While this seems like it may make the bypassing of Evansville quite easier and much faster, it has the potential to confuse people turning off of the Lloyd on the east side of town where there are multiple large intersections and not much signage informing drivers from out of town or those unfamiliar with the area which roads are where, or where something is located.
It's just something you have to look out for, and with US-31 I think leaving the original route how it is while some touch-ups (such as the removal of stoplights) hopefully start to improve traffic conditions over the next few years.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 06, 2019, 04:10:26 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 06, 2019, 04:10:26 PM
How many stoplights are left on US 31 between Indianapolis and South Bend? I don't think any stoplights should be on a four-lane express highway like US 31 (I know here in Wisconsin, there are at least two stoplights on US 12 between Sauk City and Middleton).
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on September 06, 2019, 04:22:43 PM
Post by: monty on September 06, 2019, 04:22:43 PM
There are five stoplights left between Indy and South Bend. Bakers Corner, Division Road, SR 18, SR 218 and just north of US 24.
I'm not sure why the delay on the RR bridges but I know the ground is quite marshy - and that bore samples have indicated some stability issues to the north of the tracks.
I'm not sure why the delay on the RR bridges but I know the ground is quite marshy - and that bore samples have indicated some stability issues to the north of the tracks.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: triplemultiplex on October 03, 2019, 02:41:03 PM
Post by: triplemultiplex on October 03, 2019, 02:41:03 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 06, 2019, 04:10:26 PM
How many stoplights are left on US 31 between Indianapolis and South Bend? I don't think any stoplights should be on a four-lane express highway like US 31 (I know here in Wisconsin, there are at least two stoplights on US 12 between Sauk City and Middleton).
It's 3.
CTH K
WI 19 east
CTK P
4 if you count the one at WI 78 south.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: SEWIGuy on October 03, 2019, 03:49:28 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on October 03, 2019, 03:49:28 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 06, 2019, 04:10:26 PM
How many stoplights are left on US 31 between Indianapolis and South Bend? I don't think any stoplights should be on a four-lane express highway like US 31 (I know here in Wisconsin, there are at least two stoplights on US 12 between Sauk City and Middleton).
How many are left on US-41/WI-63 after Chicagoland to Terre Haute? How many on US-41 from Terre Haute south to Evansville?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on October 03, 2019, 04:01:45 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on October 03, 2019, 04:01:45 PM
this has a schedule of upcoming 31 projects https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
there will be an exit at division rd
there will be an exit at division rd
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on October 03, 2019, 04:56:38 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on October 03, 2019, 04:56:38 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 03, 2019, 04:01:45 PM
this has a schedule of upcoming 31 projects https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
there will be an exit at division rd
My takeaways from this:
1) No later than 2026, there will be no stoplights and no at-grade railroad crossings between South Bend and Indy
2) Six spots are labelled as "Intersection Reconstruction" rather than "New Interchange" which tells me that there are no plans to convert those sections to full freeway.
The one thing I'd have a real question on is what they are going to do at CR 100 N in Miami County. It says the signal will be removed but that it is getting an "Intersection Reconstruction" instead of a "New Interchange". How is that going to work with the huge truck stop and McDonald's at that intersection? They can't just leave it with no traffic control, can they?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on October 03, 2019, 05:03:39 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on October 03, 2019, 05:03:39 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on October 03, 2019, 04:56:38 PMI think "intersection improvement" means J-Turn. INDOT loves those things and motorists in the area hate them. I bet they'll all be interchanges or overpasses in the far future.Quote from: silverback1065 on October 03, 2019, 04:01:45 PM
this has a schedule of upcoming 31 projects https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
there will be an exit at division rd
My takeaways from this:
1) No later than 2026, there will be no stoplights and no at-grade railroad crossings between South Bend and Indy
2) Six spots are labelled as "Intersection Reconstruction" rather than "New Interchange" which tells me that there are no plans to convert those sections to full freeway.
The one thing I'd have a real question on is what they are going to do at CR 100 N in Miami County. It says the signal will be removed but that it is getting an "Intersection Reconstruction" instead of a "New Interchange". How is that going to work with the huge truck stop and McDonald's at that intersection? They can't just leave it with no traffic control, can they?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on October 03, 2019, 05:19:12 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on October 03, 2019, 05:19:12 PM
This bit was interesting -
Seems they have an opposite approach to SR-37 south of Indianapolis.
They ought to study raising the speed limit to at least 65 mph on this road, possibly 70 mph, among others, especially expressway (free-flowing non-limited-access highway) corridors like this will be.
70 mph would make it the exact same as a freeway driving wise, though visually you'll still see driveways and intersections.
Either way, I'm willing to bet in 2050 this will be a full freeway corridor. First, it'll be the interchange projects, then frontage roads here and there, and overtime it will be built out as a freeway.
QuoteINDOT can make U.S. 31 safer and remove all traffic signals and rail crossings at a fraction of the cost of upgrading the highway to freeway specifications:
* To convert U.S. 31 to a freeway would cost as much as four to five times more than INDOT's plan, with little added benefit.
* A freeway project would require years of federally mandated environmental review that would delay
the project and needed safety improvements.
* A freeway would require more private property, forcing more people from their homes, require more businesses to close or relocate, and reduce the amount of property available for future development.
Improving U.S. 31 to a free-flow highway can be achieved at lower cost, in much less time, and with far less impact on existing homes and businesses while achieving the same benefits as a freeway.
Seems they have an opposite approach to SR-37 south of Indianapolis.
They ought to study raising the speed limit to at least 65 mph on this road, possibly 70 mph, among others, especially expressway (free-flowing non-limited-access highway) corridors like this will be.
70 mph would make it the exact same as a freeway driving wise, though visually you'll still see driveways and intersections.
Either way, I'm willing to bet in 2050 this will be a full freeway corridor. First, it'll be the interchange projects, then frontage roads here and there, and overtime it will be built out as a freeway.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on October 03, 2019, 07:20:13 PM
Post by: sparker on October 03, 2019, 07:20:13 PM
^^^^^^^^^^
It's probably not just the expense of interchange construction that has prompted this "free-flow" approach; it's addressing the dozens if not hundreds of private access points on US 31. This approach, if and when implemented with median barriers, maintains that access but essentially turns everything into a virtual RIRO, with the same method of getting to the alternate direction (just head up one's side of the road to the next J-turn). Spares the expenses endemic to extensive frontage-road construction, which would be required for properties not purchased outright by INDOT.
Nevertheless, the whole thing looks like a fiscally-mandated "band-aid"; with the likely long-term result being a large number of inconvenienced local drivers -- either those traversing crossing roads or those living/working along US 31 itself -- and the equal likelihood that some of these will become vocal about their concerns/objections. Maybe not now -- financial recovery from the expenses of the I-69 extension and other visible statewide projects will have to be in the rear view mirror, so to speak -- but it's likely that INDOT will eventually have to break down and deploy a full freeway along US 31, even if that horizon is 20-30 years down the line.
It's probably not just the expense of interchange construction that has prompted this "free-flow" approach; it's addressing the dozens if not hundreds of private access points on US 31. This approach, if and when implemented with median barriers, maintains that access but essentially turns everything into a virtual RIRO, with the same method of getting to the alternate direction (just head up one's side of the road to the next J-turn). Spares the expenses endemic to extensive frontage-road construction, which would be required for properties not purchased outright by INDOT.
Nevertheless, the whole thing looks like a fiscally-mandated "band-aid"; with the likely long-term result being a large number of inconvenienced local drivers -- either those traversing crossing roads or those living/working along US 31 itself -- and the equal likelihood that some of these will become vocal about their concerns/objections. Maybe not now -- financial recovery from the expenses of the I-69 extension and other visible statewide projects will have to be in the rear view mirror, so to speak -- but it's likely that INDOT will eventually have to break down and deploy a full freeway along US 31, even if that horizon is 20-30 years down the line.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on October 03, 2019, 10:02:01 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on October 03, 2019, 10:02:01 PM
I wonder how many of the proposed interchanges will feature roundabouts. It would probably work well with just about all of them.
As for the intersection just north of US 24, would a J-turn intersection concept even work. There's a jersey barrier just south of that intersection as you approach the US 24 interchange. I think an overpass located to the north and a right in/right out interchange setup could be better there. Or move the truck stop to US 24 in Peru just east of the US 31 interchange.
Finally, I notice they say "access control" for the stretch from SR 38 to 236th Street. I wonder if that means they may actually remove all access points and effectively make that stretch a freeway.
I'll be driving up US 31 on Saturday to South Bend so it will give me a chance to experience this corridor again but I'm okay with this concept at the moment. At the very least US 31 from SR 38/236th Streets up to the Kokomo Bypass should be a freeway when they get the chance. I'll live with the part north of US 24 being this setup for now, there is a lot of nothing up there until you reach Rochester.
And I would make all of US 31 65 MPH from Westfield to just south of South Bend. With these improvements coming I would bet pretty well that they may actually do that.
As for the intersection just north of US 24, would a J-turn intersection concept even work. There's a jersey barrier just south of that intersection as you approach the US 24 interchange. I think an overpass located to the north and a right in/right out interchange setup could be better there. Or move the truck stop to US 24 in Peru just east of the US 31 interchange.
Finally, I notice they say "access control" for the stretch from SR 38 to 236th Street. I wonder if that means they may actually remove all access points and effectively make that stretch a freeway.
I'll be driving up US 31 on Saturday to South Bend so it will give me a chance to experience this corridor again but I'm okay with this concept at the moment. At the very least US 31 from SR 38/236th Streets up to the Kokomo Bypass should be a freeway when they get the chance. I'll live with the part north of US 24 being this setup for now, there is a lot of nothing up there until you reach Rochester.
And I would make all of US 31 65 MPH from Westfield to just south of South Bend. With these improvements coming I would bet pretty well that they may actually do that.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on October 04, 2019, 06:45:31 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on October 04, 2019, 06:45:31 AM
Quote from: tdindy88 on October 03, 2019, 10:02:01 PMDebatable. In the southern part of the state, 20 miles of US-231 between I-64 and Kentucky was upgraded & relocated into a limited-access 4-lane highway with a mix of intersections & interchanges and no private driveways, and it's still only posted at 60 mph. I'm willing to bet though that 99% of the traffic does not obey that.
And I would make all of US 31 65 MPH from Westfield to just south of South Bend. With these improvements coming I would bet pretty well that they may actually do that.
There's likely something in state law that prevents anything with at-grade connections being posted above 60 mph. But I agree, 65 mph or even 70 mph is appropriate for both US-31, the US-231 stretch I mentioned, and other roads in the state.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on October 04, 2019, 07:37:47 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on October 04, 2019, 07:37:47 AM
Quote from: tdindy88 on October 03, 2019, 10:02:01 PM
As for the intersection just north of US 24, would a J-turn intersection concept even work. There's a jersey barrier just south of that intersection as you approach the US 24 interchange. I think an overpass located to the north and a right in/right out interchange setup could be better there. Or move the truck stop to US 24 in Peru just east of the US 31 interchange.
Finally, I notice they say "access control" for the stretch from SR 38 to 236th Street. I wonder if that means they may actually remove all access points and effectively make that stretch a freeway.
I'll be driving up US 31 on Saturday to South Bend so it will give me a chance to experience this corridor again but I'm okay with this concept at the moment. At the very least US 31 from SR 38/236th Streets up to the Kokomo Bypass should be a freeway when they get the chance. I'll live with the part north of US 24 being this setup for now, there is a lot of nothing up there until you reach Rochester.
And I would make all of US 31 65 MPH from Westfield to just south of South Bend. With these improvements coming I would bet pretty well that they may actually do that.
I can't think of anything other than an interchange at CR 100 N that is safe without taking out the light. Even if it is a J turn, that's a lot of trucks moving slowly on the road at that point.
I had hear previously that the section between IN 38 and 236th was going to become full freeway so that's what I take "access control" to mean.
Finally, this is a longshot, but since you're going to South Bend Saturday, know anybody who needs tickets to the game? Have a pair I need to unload.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on October 04, 2019, 09:17:10 AM
Post by: tdindy88 on October 04, 2019, 09:17:10 AM
The game is actually my destination in South Bend tomorrow. It will be my first Irish game ever.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on October 04, 2019, 10:00:31 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on October 04, 2019, 10:00:31 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 03, 2019, 03:49:28 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on September 06, 2019, 04:10:26 PM
How many stoplights are left on US 31 between Indianapolis and South Bend? I don't think any stoplights should be on a four-lane express highway like US 31 (I know here in Wisconsin, there are at least two stoplights on US 12 between Sauk City and Middleton).
How many are left on US-41/WI-63 after Chicagoland to Terre Haute? How many on US-41 from Terre Haute south to Evansville?
If you define the southern end of Chicagoland as the southern border of Lake County, there are lights at IN 10, US 24/52, IN 163 before getting to Terre Haute on US 41/IN 63. There's a huge difference in traffic volumes between 41/63 and 31 though, so I don't know how useful that comparison is.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: roadman65 on October 04, 2019, 10:49:16 AM
Post by: roadman65 on October 04, 2019, 10:49:16 AM
I drove US 31 in 2008 and back then it was okay. It had many at grades, but it was pretty much free flowing minus the parts in Westfield and Kokomo and from La Paz to US 20 junction. 60 mph and pretty much expressway with only signals at major crossroads.
A simple upgrade of the intersections will do just fine. No major freeway upgrades are really needed. US 31 could become like US 301 in the eastern shore of MD where its free flowing despite crossovers and such.
If they just eliminate the signalized intersections it will become also like US 71 from Joplin to KC before I-49 which made that upgrade practically simple. So if in 2030 INDOT wants I-67 (if PA don't steal the number for US 219) it would be made easier when (or if) that time comes.
A simple upgrade of the intersections will do just fine. No major freeway upgrades are really needed. US 31 could become like US 301 in the eastern shore of MD where its free flowing despite crossovers and such.
If they just eliminate the signalized intersections it will become also like US 71 from Joplin to KC before I-49 which made that upgrade practically simple. So if in 2030 INDOT wants I-67 (if PA don't steal the number for US 219) it would be made easier when (or if) that time comes.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on October 04, 2019, 10:53:06 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on October 04, 2019, 10:53:06 AM
This sounds like us 24 in Ohio from the state line east to Toledo. Think the speed is 70 with at grade crossings and some interchanges.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: hbelkins on October 04, 2019, 01:20:25 PM
Post by: hbelkins on October 04, 2019, 01:20:25 PM
I still don't think any major changes need to be made to the existing US 31 route. Kokomo has been bypassed, and the remaining signals are not really an inconvenience to anyone.
Not everything needs to be a full freeway.
Not everything needs to be a full freeway.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 04, 2019, 04:56:54 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 04, 2019, 04:56:54 PM
Even if US 31 doesn't become completely freeway between Indianapolis and South Bend, I still think getting rid of all remaining traffic signals will be more of a benefit than a hindrance. I disagree that the remaining signals aren't an inconvenience. Signaled intersections on roads like US 31 are contrary to what drivers would expect.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on October 04, 2019, 05:12:44 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on October 04, 2019, 05:12:44 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 04, 2019, 10:53:06 AM
This sounds like us 24 in Ohio from the state line east to Toledo. Think the speed is 70 with at grade crossings and some interchanges.
Quote from: roadman65 on October 04, 2019, 10:49:16 AMBig difference. US-301 and US-24 are limited-access roadways, meaning crossovers only exist at minor intersections, and interchanges at major roadways. There are no private driveway connections permitted. US-31 has plenty of private driveway connections and crossovers for such.
US 31 could become like US 301 in the eastern shore of MD where its free flowing despite crossovers and such.
A better example would be comparing US-31 to US-77 / US-59 in Texas, between Refugio and Houston. It's a non-limited-access highway with town bypasses, plenty of private driveway connections and minor road intersections, but interchanges at major junctions. No traffic signals along the entire route, and a constant 75 mph speed limit. Also, US-58 in Virginia between Courtland and Emporia. Non-limited-access highway, though no interchanges and only intersections + private driveway connections. No traffic signals, constant 60 mph speed limit.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Ryctor2018 on October 05, 2019, 12:42:34 PM
Post by: Ryctor2018 on October 05, 2019, 12:42:34 PM
U.S. 36 across Missouri is also a good example.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: westerninterloper on October 05, 2019, 03:47:33 PM
Post by: westerninterloper on October 05, 2019, 03:47:33 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 04, 2019, 10:53:06 AM
This sounds like us 24 in Ohio from the state line east to Toledo. Think the speed is 70 with at grade crossings and some interchanges.
The speed limit is 65 where there are at-grade crossings, 70 where there aren't.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on October 05, 2019, 03:55:35 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on October 05, 2019, 03:55:35 PM
Quote from: westerninterloper on October 05, 2019, 03:47:33 PMNot true. There's sections with at-grade intersections and posted at 70 mph.Quote from: silverback1065 on October 04, 2019, 10:53:06 AM
This sounds like us 24 in Ohio from the state line east to Toledo. Think the speed is 70 with at grade crossings and some interchanges.
The speed limit is 65 where there are at-grade crossings, 70 where there aren't.
For example - https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8266586,-83.4909351,3a,75y,101.6h,81.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBHj2YX4URlb2srbZWvoDKQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
Google considers this segment a "freeway" but it's not. It's limited-access, but has at-grade intersections. Just no private driveway connections.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: westerninterloper on October 05, 2019, 04:02:36 PM
Post by: westerninterloper on October 05, 2019, 04:02:36 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on October 05, 2019, 03:55:35 PMQuote from: westerninterloper on October 05, 2019, 03:47:33 PMNot true. There's sections with at-grade intersections and posted at 70 mph.Quote from: silverback1065 on October 04, 2019, 10:53:06 AM
This sounds like us 24 in Ohio from the state line east to Toledo. Think the speed is 70 with at grade crossings and some interchanges.
The speed limit is 65 where there are at-grade crossings, 70 where there aren't.
For example - https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8266586,-83.4909351,3a,75y,101.6h,81.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBHj2YX4URlb2srbZWvoDKQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
Google considers this segment a "freeway" but it's not. It's limited-access, but has at-grade intersections. Just no private driveway connections.
I was writing specifically about US 24 between Toledo and Ft. Wayne; I don't know about US 30. Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on October 05, 2019, 04:30:39 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on October 05, 2019, 04:30:39 PM
Quote from: westerninterloper on October 05, 2019, 04:02:36 PMInterestingly enough, even parts of US-30 that are non-limited-access and have private driveway connections -still- maintain 70 mph.Quote from: sprjus4 on October 05, 2019, 03:55:35 PMQuote from: westerninterloper on October 05, 2019, 03:47:33 PMNot true. There's sections with at-grade intersections and posted at 70 mph.Quote from: silverback1065 on October 04, 2019, 10:53:06 AM
This sounds like us 24 in Ohio from the state line east to Toledo. Think the speed is 70 with at grade crossings and some interchanges.
The speed limit is 65 where there are at-grade crossings, 70 where there aren't.
For example - https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8266586,-83.4909351,3a,75y,101.6h,81.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBHj2YX4URlb2srbZWvoDKQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
Google considers this segment a "freeway" but it's not. It's limited-access, but has at-grade intersections. Just no private driveway connections.
I was writing specifically about US 24 between Toledo and Ft. Wayne; I don't know about US 30. Thanks for the info.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9542514,-84.7279017,3a,37.5y,317.96h,81.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNTL0AgdY1MhkXXiKvjKCpg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
Just another reason that US-31 could easily be 70 mph once the signals are removed, and even lots of stretches of it now, along with the remainder of US-30 between Ohio / Indiana line and Fort Wayne. Currently, the speed limit drops from 70 mph to 60 mph crossing the state line, yet the condition & design characteristics of the road do not change at all.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: royo6022 on October 05, 2019, 11:17:21 PM
Post by: royo6022 on October 05, 2019, 11:17:21 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 03, 2019, 03:49:28 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on September 06, 2019, 04:10:26 PM
How many stoplights are left on US 31 between Indianapolis and South Bend? I don't think any stoplights should be on a four-lane express highway like US 31 (I know here in Wisconsin, there are at least two stoplights on US 12 between Sauk City and Middleton).
How many are left on US-41/WI-63 after Chicagoland to Terre Haute? How many on US-41 from Terre Haute south to Evansville?
I can't speak for US 41 in Illinois, but I know I've never had any problems with traffic being backed up on it from Evansville all the way into the Chicago area. I even drive into Evansville on US 41 almost every day and if it is even that busy, it usually flows pretty well at least. Evansville to Vincennes and Terre Haute to Chicago area are both very smooth sailing.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Terry Shea on October 06, 2019, 01:19:43 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on October 06, 2019, 01:19:43 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 04, 2019, 10:49:16 AMYou drove it once over 10 years ago and that makes you an area expert?
I drove US 31 in 2008 and back then it was okay. It had many at grades, but it was pretty much free flowing minus the parts in Westfield and Kokomo and from La Paz to US 20 junction. 60 mph and pretty much expressway with only signals at major crossroads.
A simple upgrade of the intersections will do just fine. No major freeway upgrades are really needed. US 31 could become like US 301 in the eastern shore of MD where its free flowing despite crossovers and such.
If they just eliminate the signalized intersections it will become also like US 71 from Joplin to KC before I-49 which made that upgrade practically simple. So if in 2030 INDOT wants I-67 (if PA don't steal the number for US 219) it would be made easier when (or if) that time comes.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on October 06, 2019, 01:35:26 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on October 06, 2019, 01:35:26 PM
I was just coming back from South Bend over this weekend and I think US 31 from US 24 to US 30 can be at least 65 MPH today. There didn't seem to be too many driveways and all the local county roads are lightly traveled. I could do 70 to 75 on that stretch and still get passed by traffic. Southern Miami County is a little debatable but 65 might be okay there too, a few more businesses and driveways though. The freeway parts between South Bend and Plymouth and around Kokomo should be 70 MPH. South of Kokomo it could stay 60 or go up to 65, in any case traffic was going 10 over nearly the entire way going north and south along US 31.
I drove US 30 across northern Ohio a few years ago. Something about that highway seemed different, very desolate (even if it likely isn't) and a 70 MPH speed limit would seem very doable on that stretch. I agree that the speed limit should be extended westward to near the I-469 interchange. It probably takes a change in state law to get any of these speed limits updated.
Something I noticed also. There was a billboard (for Arby's) approaching the SR 25 interchange in Rochester that directs traffic to Exit 212. Despite the fact that there are no signs indicating an Exit 212. Other businesses with billboards just mentioned SR 25 exit or "Exit 25." But then I noticed Google Maps does indeed have the SR 25 exit referred to as Exit 212. And furthermore they have the US 24 interchange listed as Exits 191 A-B. Again there are no real signs out in the field with this reference. This seems a little awkward.
I kind of hope now that when the other interchanges get built at several of the signals along US 31 they will all get exit numbers, prompting INDOT to finally add numbers to the two preexisting interchanges at US 24 and SR 25.
I drove US 30 across northern Ohio a few years ago. Something about that highway seemed different, very desolate (even if it likely isn't) and a 70 MPH speed limit would seem very doable on that stretch. I agree that the speed limit should be extended westward to near the I-469 interchange. It probably takes a change in state law to get any of these speed limits updated.
Something I noticed also. There was a billboard (for Arby's) approaching the SR 25 interchange in Rochester that directs traffic to Exit 212. Despite the fact that there are no signs indicating an Exit 212. Other businesses with billboards just mentioned SR 25 exit or "Exit 25." But then I noticed Google Maps does indeed have the SR 25 exit referred to as Exit 212. And furthermore they have the US 24 interchange listed as Exits 191 A-B. Again there are no real signs out in the field with this reference. This seems a little awkward.
I kind of hope now that when the other interchanges get built at several of the signals along US 31 they will all get exit numbers, prompting INDOT to finally add numbers to the two preexisting interchanges at US 24 and SR 25.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Revive 755 on October 06, 2019, 02:06:35 PM
Post by: Revive 755 on October 06, 2019, 02:06:35 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on October 04, 2019, 06:45:31 AM
There's likely something in state law that prevents anything with at-grade connections being posted above 60 mph. But I agree, 65 mph or even 70 mph is appropriate for both US-31, the US-231 stretch I mentioned, and other roads in the state.
Yes, see IC 9-21-5-2 on http://iga.in.gov/legislative/laws/2017/ic/titles/009#9-21-5 (http://iga.in.gov/legislative/laws/2017/ic/titles/009#9-21-5).
I cannot speak for the stretch of US 231, but the rural 60 mph portions of US 41 certainly have widespread disobedience of the 60 mph limit. I would estimate at least 75% is doing 70 or greater.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: royo6022 on October 09, 2019, 12:03:24 AM
Post by: royo6022 on October 09, 2019, 12:03:24 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on October 06, 2019, 02:06:35 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on October 04, 2019, 06:45:31 AM
There's likely something in state law that prevents anything with at-grade connections being posted above 60 mph. But I agree, 65 mph or even 70 mph is appropriate for both US-31, the US-231 stretch I mentioned, and other roads in the state.
Yes, see IC 9-21-5-2 on http://iga.in.gov/legislative/laws/2017/ic/titles/009#9-21-5 (http://iga.in.gov/legislative/laws/2017/ic/titles/009#9-21-5).
I cannot speak for the stretch of US 231, but the rural 60 mph portions of US 41 certainly have widespread disobedience of the 60 mph limit. I would estimate at least 75% is doing 70 or greater.
US 231 South of I 64 is marked as 60 mph, which is completely idiotic. Other than a couple well-marked county road turn-offs and one ground level State Road 70 turn-off, it's basically an Interstate. The speed limit there should be 70mph as well as US 41 should be from I 64 to Vincennes. As far as US 231 North of I 64, since it is mostly just a 2-lane at least as far as to I 69, the speed limit should be that of a typical two-lane state highway. US 231 from I 64 north is just a never-ending nightmare anyways, I'm surprised they just now are starting more extended studies on the Midstate Corridor... but that's for another thread :)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on October 09, 2019, 05:39:39 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on October 09, 2019, 05:39:39 PM
Quote from: royo6022 on October 09, 2019, 12:03:24 AMIt's more interesting the fact that the roadway was only built in the past decade as a relocation / upgrade of the 2-lane US-231. It's a limited-access roadway with private driveways prohibited, and a few intersections and an interchange. The rural segments should definitely be posted at minimum 65 mph, 70 mph ideal. Again though, that law is the only thing prohibiting it. I've complained about this numerous times - an artificial limit set on paper based solely on functional class (60 mph divided, 65 mph freeway, 70 mph interstate highway in Indiana's case) that defies reality and true design speed. I'd be willing to bet the true design speed for the roadway is at least 70 mph. Seeing this project was built around the time they built I-69 between Evansville and Bloomington, I'm surprised it wasn't built to full freeway standards. It's also would have given Owensboro direct freeway access to I-64 East.
US 231 South of I 64 is marked as 60 mph, which is completely idiotic. Other than a couple well-marked county road turn-offs and one ground level State Road 70 turn-off, it's basically an Interstate. The speed limit there should be 70mph
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on October 09, 2019, 11:46:02 PM
Post by: monty on October 09, 2019, 11:46:02 PM
I suspect that US31 will be closer to interstate type standard from Indy to the new Kokomo segment after the interchange is built at Division Road and the NSRR is bridged. INDOT has acquired some twelve properties in Tipton County and a reliable source indicated that the current Northbound lanes will become an access road north of the RR. Just saw two properties on the west side of the highway that are empty - which will allow for new Southbound lanes to be built in this area. It makes sense that Bakers Corner interchange through Division Road interchange will be next to get the full conversion.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on October 10, 2019, 05:46:59 PM
Post by: sparker on October 10, 2019, 05:46:59 PM
Quote from: monty on October 09, 2019, 11:46:02 PM
I suspect that US31 will be closer to interstate type standard from Indy to the new Kokomo segment after the interchange is built at Division Road and the NSRR is bridged. INDOT has acquired some twelve properties in Tipton County and a reliable source indicated that the current Northbound lanes will become an access road north of the RR. Just saw two properties on the west side of the highway that are empty - which will allow for new Southbound lanes to be built in this area. It makes sense that Bakers Corner interchange through Division Road interchange will be next to get the full conversion.
Likely scenario: INDOT will build out US 31 as a full freeway Indy-Kokomo -- then sit back and wait for reaction from the areas north of there to Plymouth, building out the enhanced divided facility they're currently planning. If there's a lot of pissing and moaning regarding "they got a freeway; we have to put up with these damn J-turns" or something similar, then at least preliminary planning for freeway upgrades will occur (with any actual activity toward development TBD as regards a timeline). A plan like that is probably all INDOT can "bite off" at this time.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on October 10, 2019, 10:15:26 PM
Post by: monty on October 10, 2019, 10:15:26 PM
Quote from: sparker on October 10, 2019, 05:46:59 PMQuote from: monty on October 09, 2019, 11:46:02 PM
I suspect that US31 will be closer to interstate type standard from Indy to the new Kokomo segment after the interchange is built at Division Road and the NSRR is bridged. INDOT has acquired some twelve properties in Tipton County and a reliable source indicated that the current Northbound lanes will become an access road north of the RR. Just saw two properties on the west side of the highway that are empty - which will allow for new Southbound lanes to be built in this area. It makes sense that Bakers Corner interchange through Division Road interchange will be next to get the full conversion.
Likely scenario: INDOT will build out US 31 as a full freeway Indy-Kokomo -- then sit back and wait for reaction from the areas north of there to Plymouth, building out the enhanced divided facility they're currently planning. If there's a lot of pissing and moaning regarding "they got a freeway; we have to put up with these damn J-turns" or something similar, then at least preliminary planning for freeway upgrades will occur (with any actual activity toward development TBD as regards a timeline). A plan like that is probably all INDOT can "bite off" at this time.
I think you're right. I counted ten homes that INDOT has purchased between Division Road and Tipton County 375 N On Both sides of the highway. The US 31 Coalition will continue to push for the entire INDY to South Bend route to be fully upgraded. J Turns are not a popular proposal. The governor is still working to keep his promise for a "no-stop" US 31. Lots of progress being made.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: roadgeek on November 24, 2019, 06:33:39 PM
Post by: roadgeek on November 24, 2019, 06:33:39 PM
An I-67 designation doesn't make much sense as a large portion of US-31 in Michigan is NOT a freeway. From Ludington northward to it's junction with I-75 is not a freeway. Then you have the portion of US-31 from Grand Haven to the Holland area that is a divided highway. I loathe the idea of a discontinuous highway. Personally I don't see a problem with US routes that are freeways. Interstate designations aren't necessary.
Now with the extra cash going towards US-31, it's not a bad idea. But my question is is I-69 fully funded for completion?
Now with the extra cash going towards US-31, it's not a bad idea. But my question is is I-69 fully funded for completion?
Quote from: cabiness42 on July 15, 2019, 11:51:05 AMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on July 12, 2019, 05:09:12 PM
I don't want to see any more posts that US 31 should become Interstate 67, because outside of Fictional Highways, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN! At least not anytime soon.
If the entirety of US 31 from Indy to St. Joseph is eventually upgraded to freeway, then I have no problem with Indiana and Michigan asking for an interstate designation.
I do have a problem with making all of the upgrades just to get the interstate designation.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Terry Shea on November 24, 2019, 07:00:26 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on November 24, 2019, 07:00:26 PM
Quote from: roadgeek on November 24, 2019, 06:33:39 PMThe original idea was to send I-67 up I-196 to Grand Rapids, which makes perfect sense.
An I-67 designation doesn't make much sense as a large portion of US-31 in Michigan is NOT a freeway. From Ludington northward to it's junction with I-75 is not a freeway. Then you have the portion of US-31 from Grand Haven to the Holland area that is a divided highway. I loathe the idea of a discontinuous highway. Personally I don't see a problem with US routes that are freeways. Interstate designations aren't necessary.
Now with the extra cash going towards US-31, it's not a bad idea. But my question is is I-69 fully funded for completion?Quote from: cabiness42 on July 15, 2019, 11:51:05 AMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on July 12, 2019, 05:09:12 PM
I don't want to see any more posts that US 31 should become Interstate 67, because outside of Fictional Highways, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN! At least not anytime soon.
If the entirety of US 31 from Indy to St. Joseph is eventually upgraded to freeway, then I have no problem with Indiana and Michigan asking for an interstate designation.
I do have a problem with making all of the upgrades just to get the interstate designation.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on November 24, 2019, 09:06:52 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on November 24, 2019, 09:06:52 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on November 24, 2019, 07:00:26 PMIdeally, from Grand Rapids, you could then continue it up the freeway portion of US-131 then construct a new location segment due east to meet I-75 near the US-127 junction.Quote from: roadgeek on November 24, 2019, 06:33:39 PMThe original idea was to send I-67 up I-196 to Grand Rapids, which makes perfect sense.
An I-67 designation doesn't make much sense as a large portion of US-31 in Michigan is NOT a freeway. From Ludington northward to it's junction with I-75 is not a freeway. Then you have the portion of US-31 from Grand Haven to the Holland area that is a divided highway. I loathe the idea of a discontinuous highway. Personally I don't see a problem with US routes that are freeways. Interstate designations aren't necessary.
Now with the extra cash going towards US-31, it's not a bad idea. But my question is is I-69 fully funded for completion?Quote from: cabiness42 on July 15, 2019, 11:51:05 AMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on July 12, 2019, 05:09:12 PM
I don't want to see any more posts that US 31 should become Interstate 67, because outside of Fictional Highways, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN! At least not anytime soon.
If the entirety of US 31 from Indy to St. Joseph is eventually upgraded to freeway, then I have no problem with Indiana and Michigan asking for an interstate designation.
I do have a problem with making all of the upgrades just to get the interstate designation.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: roadgeek on November 24, 2019, 09:37:18 PM
Post by: roadgeek on November 24, 2019, 09:37:18 PM
I didn't consider that having I-67 ending at Grand Rapids. US-31 could just run concurrently for a while.
Quote from: Terry Shea on November 24, 2019, 07:00:26 PMQuote from: roadgeek on November 24, 2019, 06:33:39 PMThe original idea was to send I-67 up I-196 to Grand Rapids, which makes perfect sense.
An I-67 designation doesn't make much sense as a large portion of US-31 in Michigan is NOT a freeway. From Ludington northward to it's junction with I-75 is not a freeway. Then you have the portion of US-31 from Grand Haven to the Holland area that is a divided highway. I loathe the idea of a discontinuous highway. Personally I don't see a problem with US routes that are freeways. Interstate designations aren't necessary.
Now with the extra cash going towards US-31, it's not a bad idea. But my question is is I-69 fully funded for completion?Quote from: cabiness42 on July 15, 2019, 11:51:05 AMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on July 12, 2019, 05:09:12 PM
I don't want to see any more posts that US 31 should become Interstate 67, because outside of Fictional Highways, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN! At least not anytime soon.
If the entirety of US 31 from Indy to St. Joseph is eventually upgraded to freeway, then I have no problem with Indiana and Michigan asking for an interstate designation.
I do have a problem with making all of the upgrades just to get the interstate designation.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on November 24, 2019, 09:41:10 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on November 24, 2019, 09:41:10 PM
69 in indiana is completely funded, the ohio river bridge isn't.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on November 24, 2019, 11:12:47 PM
Post by: sparker on November 24, 2019, 11:12:47 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 24, 2019, 09:41:10 PM
69 in indiana is completely funded, the ohio river bridge isn't.
IIRC, KYDOT is taking the lead on the bridge project and will be contributing at least half the cost of design & construction. Nevertheless, their share will be a substantial chunk of $$ for INDOT; it's likely that it'll be some time after the bridge project is let (and the remainder of I-69 within the state is completed) that the agency undertakes another major project of that magnitude, including the conversion of US 31 to full (Interstate or not) freeway north from Indy to Plymouth. It'll be "baby steps", a few miles at a time, until the projects ahead of it in the queue are in the rear view mirror. But even that won't happen without prompting from the areas traversed by US 31; they'll have to make some significant waves in Indy to achieve that goal.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: X99 on November 25, 2019, 12:56:53 AM
Post by: X99 on November 25, 2019, 12:56:53 AM
I know that if US 31 was to become I-67 that it wouldn't be anytime in the near future, but with KYTC labeling one of their road projects as a future I-67 upgrade, it might not happen at all.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on November 25, 2019, 04:04:40 AM
Post by: sparker on November 25, 2019, 04:04:40 AM
Quote from: X99 on November 25, 2019, 12:56:53 AM
I know that if US 31 was to become I-67 that it wouldn't be anytime in the near future, but with KYTC labeling one of their road projects as a future I-67 upgrade, it might not happen at all.
IIRC, the "future I-67" was to have utilized the Natcher Parkway, which just recently was designated and subsequently signed as I-165. At this point, barring anything but a full-on political onslaught, I-165 is likely to retain its number for the foreseeable future. There's no other location in KY in which a reasonably feasible I-67 could and would be appropriate.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: SSR_317 on November 30, 2019, 04:57:14 PM
Post by: SSR_317 on November 30, 2019, 04:57:14 PM
Quote from: X99 on November 25, 2019, 12:56:53 AMWhat is Kentucky trying to do, become another North Carolina with nonsensical numbers pulled out of their rear ends? :bigass:
I know that if US 31 was to become I-67 that it wouldn't be anytime in the near future, but with KYTC labeling one of their road projects as a future I-67 upgrade, it might not happen at all.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on December 01, 2019, 03:44:07 AM
Post by: sparker on December 01, 2019, 03:44:07 AM
Quote from: SSR_317 on November 30, 2019, 04:57:14 PMQuote from: X99 on November 25, 2019, 12:56:53 AMWhat is Kentucky trying to do, become another North Carolina with nonsensical numbers pulled out of their rear ends? :bigass:
I know that if US 31 was to become I-67 that it wouldn't be anytime in the near future, but with KYTC labeling one of their road projects as a future I-67 upgrade, it might not happen at all.
Most of that BS regarding new KY-based trunk Interstates came from Owensboro, with successive mayors and chambers of commerce pressing for a Natcher/US 231-based "I-67" to place their city on the I-system; those efforts created enough local "buzz" for KYDOT to at one point list the concept as a potential set of projects (hey, I-66 remains a semi-active concept within the state although largely dormant at this time). Those efforts were eventually rebuffed -- but the I-165 Natcher designation seems to have settled the matter for the time being.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: hbelkins on December 01, 2019, 05:11:12 PM
Post by: hbelkins on December 01, 2019, 05:11:12 PM
Quote from: sparker on December 01, 2019, 03:44:07 AMQuote from: SSR_317 on November 30, 2019, 04:57:14 PMQuote from: X99 on November 25, 2019, 12:56:53 AMWhat is Kentucky trying to do, become another North Carolina with nonsensical numbers pulled out of their rear ends? :bigass:
I know that if US 31 was to become I-67 that it wouldn't be anytime in the near future, but with KYTC labeling one of their road projects as a future I-67 upgrade, it might not happen at all.
Most of that BS regarding new KY-based trunk Interstates came from Owensboro, with successive mayors and chambers of commerce pressing for a Natcher/US 231-based "I-67" to place their city on the I-system; those efforts created enough local "buzz" for KYDOT to at one point list the concept as a potential set of projects (hey, I-66 remains a semi-active concept within the state although largely dormant at this time). Those efforts were eventually rebuffed -- but the I-165 Natcher designation seems to have settled the matter for the time being.
Long before there were any thoughts of putting an interstate on the Natcher Parkway, there were "Future I-69 Spur" signs on the Audubon Parkway. Those signs have been gone for years now, and I've never been able to get a good answer as to why.
Right now, I-69 ends at the former KY 425/current US 41 (Henderson bypass) interchange. Seems like it would be fairly easy to extend the designation to the Audubon, and then put a three-digit "child" of I-69 on the Audubon. (Similar to how I-72 ended and I-172 began in Illinois for years before I-72 was extended across the river into Missouri.)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: theline on December 06, 2019, 02:52:22 AM
Post by: theline on December 06, 2019, 02:52:22 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on October 03, 2019, 04:56:38 PMQuote from: silverback1065 on October 03, 2019, 04:01:45 PM
this has a schedule of upcoming 31 projects https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
there will be an exit at division rd
My takeaways from this:
1) No later than 2026, there will be no stoplights and no at-grade railroad crossings between South Bend and Indy
2) Six spots are labelled as "Intersection Reconstruction" rather than "New Interchange" which tells me that there are no plans to convert those sections to full freeway.
The one thing I'd have a real question on is what they are going to do at CR 100 N in Miami County. It says the signal will be removed but that it is getting an "Intersection Reconstruction" instead of a "New Interchange". How is that going to work with the huge truck stop and McDonald's at that intersection? They can't just leave it with no traffic control, can they?
Excuse my slow reply on this, but I've been away from the site for a few months. I'm wondering if CR 100 N might be relocated to the north, something like the red line on the image below. Entrance to the truck stop could be relocated to the north end of the property. The intersection control would be J-turns where I've marked. All businesses on CR 100 would access 31 via the relocated road.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49176892176_273195e8c2_b.jpg)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Life in Paradise on December 06, 2019, 11:00:43 AM
Post by: Life in Paradise on December 06, 2019, 11:00:43 AM
Quote from: theline on December 06, 2019, 02:52:22 AMDo you really think that they want those trucks taking those J-turns? That would seem to me to be just as bad, if not worse.Quote from: cabiness42 on October 03, 2019, 04:56:38 PMQuote from: silverback1065 on October 03, 2019, 04:01:45 PM
this has a schedule of upcoming 31 projects https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
there will be an exit at division rd
My takeaways from this:
1) No later than 2026, there will be no stoplights and no at-grade railroad crossings between South Bend and Indy
2) Six spots are labelled as "Intersection Reconstruction" rather than "New Interchange" which tells me that there are no plans to convert those sections to full freeway.
The one thing I'd have a real question on is what they are going to do at CR 100 N in Miami County. It says the signal will be removed but that it is getting an "Intersection Reconstruction" instead of a "New Interchange". How is that going to work with the huge truck stop and McDonald's at that intersection? They can't just leave it with no traffic control, can they?
Excuse my slow reply on this, but I've been away from the site for a few months. I'm wondering if CR 100 N might be relocated to the north, something like the red line on the image below. Entrance to the truck stop could be relocated to the north end of the property. The intersection control would be J-turns where I've marked. All businesses on CR 100 would access 31 via the relocated road.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49176892176_273195e8c2_b.jpg)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on December 06, 2019, 11:02:54 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on December 06, 2019, 11:02:54 AM
Quote from: Life in Paradise on December 06, 2019, 11:00:43 AMIf they're building them I would say yes. Not sure why people hate J-Turns they don't seem that bad. Especially in rural areas.Quote from: theline on December 06, 2019, 02:52:22 AMDo you really think that they want those trucks taking those J-turns? That would seem to me to be just as bad, if not worse.Quote from: cabiness42 on October 03, 2019, 04:56:38 PMQuote from: silverback1065 on October 03, 2019, 04:01:45 PM
this has a schedule of upcoming 31 projects https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
there will be an exit at division rd
My takeaways from this:
1) No later than 2026, there will be no stoplights and no at-grade railroad crossings between South Bend and Indy
2) Six spots are labelled as "Intersection Reconstruction" rather than "New Interchange" which tells me that there are no plans to convert those sections to full freeway.
The one thing I'd have a real question on is what they are going to do at CR 100 N in Miami County. It says the signal will be removed but that it is getting an "Intersection Reconstruction" instead of a "New Interchange". How is that going to work with the huge truck stop and McDonald's at that intersection? They can't just leave it with no traffic control, can they?
Excuse my slow reply on this, but I've been away from the site for a few months. I'm wondering if CR 100 N might be relocated to the north, something like the red line on the image below. Entrance to the truck stop could be relocated to the north end of the property. The intersection control would be J-turns where I've marked. All businesses on CR 100 would access 31 via the relocated road.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49176892176_273195e8c2_b.jpg)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: 2trailertrucker on December 06, 2019, 11:31:29 AM
Post by: 2trailertrucker on December 06, 2019, 11:31:29 AM
A J-turn that close to a truck stop is something that needs to be studied closely.
Trucks are very slow coming from a dead stop. So can a truck make a right from the truck stop, get to the left lane to get to the J-turn, make the turn, again coming from a dead stop, without 65 mph traffic hitting the truck?
That is the $64 million question.
Trucks are very slow coming from a dead stop. So can a truck make a right from the truck stop, get to the left lane to get to the J-turn, make the turn, again coming from a dead stop, without 65 mph traffic hitting the truck?
That is the $64 million question.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on December 06, 2019, 11:33:06 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on December 06, 2019, 11:33:06 AM
Quote from: 2trailertrucker on December 06, 2019, 11:31:29 AMDidn't think about that. Maybe the distances are longer to accommodate that. No idea. This has to be a temporary fix though. I don't see this being permanent.
A J-turn that close to a truck stop is something that needs to be studied closely.
Trucks are very slow coming from a dead stop. So can a truck make a right from the truck stop, get to the left lane to get to the J-turn, make the turn, again coming from a dead stop, without 65 mph traffic hitting the truck?
That is the $64 million question.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: X99 on December 06, 2019, 01:17:37 PM
Post by: X99 on December 06, 2019, 01:17:37 PM
Quote from: theline on December 06, 2019, 02:52:22 AMI feel like that would do better as a split diamond between CR 100 and the road you marked in red.Quote from: cabiness42 on October 03, 2019, 04:56:38 PMQuote from: silverback1065 on October 03, 2019, 04:01:45 PM
this has a schedule of upcoming 31 projects https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
there will be an exit at division rd
My takeaways from this:
1) No later than 2026, there will be no stoplights and no at-grade railroad crossings between South Bend and Indy
2) Six spots are labelled as "Intersection Reconstruction" rather than "New Interchange" which tells me that there are no plans to convert those sections to full freeway.
The one thing I'd have a real question on is what they are going to do at CR 100 N in Miami County. It says the signal will be removed but that it is getting an "Intersection Reconstruction" instead of a "New Interchange". How is that going to work with the huge truck stop and McDonald's at that intersection? They can't just leave it with no traffic control, can they?
Excuse my slow reply on this, but I've been away from the site for a few months. I'm wondering if CR 100 N might be relocated to the north, something like the red line on the image below. Entrance to the truck stop could be relocated to the north end of the property. The intersection control would be J-turns where I've marked. All businesses on CR 100 would access 31 via the relocated road.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49176892176_273195e8c2_b.jpg)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: hbelkins on December 06, 2019, 03:20:17 PM
Post by: hbelkins on December 06, 2019, 03:20:17 PM
Kentucky just installed a J-turn/RCUT at US 68/KY 80 and KY 73 west of Bowling Green as a safety project, because of a number of grain trucks using that intersection to reach a grain mill. Apparently the slow-moving trucks negotiating the turns wasn't an issue.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on December 07, 2019, 12:20:10 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on December 07, 2019, 12:20:10 AM
A bit on the fictional side, but here's a conceptualization I made of a full build out for the CR-100 / US-31 intersection.
(https://i.ibb.co/k4VKK15/W100-US31-Interchange-Concept.png)
Thoughts?
(https://i.ibb.co/k4VKK15/W100-US31-Interchange-Concept.png)
Thoughts?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: X99 on December 07, 2019, 12:28:28 AM
Post by: X99 on December 07, 2019, 12:28:28 AM
I didn't see those ramps on the south side. I guess my split diamond idea wouldn't have worked.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on December 07, 2019, 12:32:18 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on December 07, 2019, 12:32:18 AM
Quote from: X99 on December 07, 2019, 12:28:28 AMToo close to the US-24 interchange. In my concept, I relocated the roadway further north and put a partial cloverleaf fully in the northern quadrant in order to provide an adequate merging / weaving area between the interchanges via an auxiliary lane, about 2,000 feet. Still slightly short, but it's either that or braided ramps.
I didn't see those ramps on the south side. I guess my split diamond idea wouldn't have worked.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Life in Paradise on December 07, 2019, 01:06:27 PM
Post by: Life in Paradise on December 07, 2019, 01:06:27 PM
With that last photo and the ramps just to the south, that reminds me of the mess at US 41 just north of I-64 at Haubstadt/Warrenton IN. There are three truck stops at a lighted intersection just to the north of the cloverleaf. It is so close that the acceleration/deceleration lanes for the cloverleaf start basically at the intersection. Talk about a cluster....No one thought this through when they were starting to purchase property, but INDOT has worked on this area for years, and it is still a mess. When I go north from Evansville, I have a way around it, just because I don't want to get caught at the light behind slow moving trucks coming on the road.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on December 07, 2019, 08:09:26 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on December 07, 2019, 08:09:26 PM
Quote from: Life in Paradise on December 07, 2019, 01:06:27 PM
With that last photo and the ramps just to the south, that reminds me of the mess at US 41 just north of I-64 at Haubstadt/Warrenton IN. There are three truck stops at a lighted intersection just to the north of the cloverleaf. It is so close that the acceleration/deceleration lanes for the cloverleaf start basically at the intersection. Talk about a cluster....No one thought this through when they were starting to purchase property, but INDOT has worked on this area for years, and it is still a mess. When I go north from Evansville, I have a way around it, just because I don't want to get caught at the light behind slow moving trucks coming on the road.
this tends to happen a lot near cloverleaves :banghead:
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: JREwing78 on December 07, 2019, 11:04:39 PM
Post by: JREwing78 on December 07, 2019, 11:04:39 PM
I'd put in an interchange at 200N and build access roads on each side of the roadway to provide direct connections to the State Police post, REMC, and the truck stop. If you're putting in another overpass, I'd do it at Eel River Cemetary Rd (425W). 100N should be cul-de-sac'ed at US-31.
It's not ideal for access to any of these entities, but it's the safest option and much cheaper than trying to shoehorn in a short-spaced interchange. No need to tear down any of the existing buildings either.
It's not ideal for access to any of these entities, but it's the safest option and much cheaper than trying to shoehorn in a short-spaced interchange. No need to tear down any of the existing buildings either.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Revive 755 on December 07, 2019, 11:06:29 PM
Post by: Revive 755 on December 07, 2019, 11:06:29 PM
Quote from: Life in Paradise on December 07, 2019, 01:06:27 PM
With that last photo and the ramps just to the south, that reminds me of the mess at US 41 just north of I-64 at Haubstadt/Warrenton IN. There are three truck stops at a lighted intersection just to the north of the cloverleaf. It is so close that the acceleration/deceleration lanes for the cloverleaf start basically at the intersection.
Nitpick: The ramp from WB I-64 to NB US 41 doesn't get an acceleration lane, and is instead signal controlled. Google Aerial Photo (https://goo.gl/maps/7JrfmAjyzVdrAZKn9)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: theline on December 08, 2019, 09:15:22 PM
Post by: theline on December 08, 2019, 09:15:22 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 07, 2019, 12:32:18 AMQuote from: X99 on December 07, 2019, 12:28:28 AMToo close to the US-24 interchange. In my concept, I relocated the roadway further north and put a partial cloverleaf fully in the northern quadrant in order to provide an adequate merging / weaving area between the interchanges via an auxiliary lane, about 2,000 feet. Still slightly short, but it's either that or braided ramps.
I didn't see those ramps on the south side. I guess my split diamond idea wouldn't have worked.
As has been mentioned, all those suggesting interchanges at US-31/CR 100 are firmly in fictional ground currently, since INDOT has designated this spot as an intersection rebuild and signal removal only. I was trying to suggest what they might actually do here. I agree that the J-turns are not a good solution, especially this close to the US-24 ramps. It may end up that INDOT sees the folly of this plan before it gets implemented and hold off until interchange money can be found, or maybe in their wisdom they can come up with some interchange rebuild plan better than what I've outlined.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Life in Paradise on December 09, 2019, 12:10:48 PM
Post by: Life in Paradise on December 09, 2019, 12:10:48 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on December 07, 2019, 11:06:29 PMThat is true, but it was originally the other way, and the traffic was so bad with trucks moving over at a slow speed to make the left turn at the light that they had to put a light on US41 at the exit ramp intersection to slow the N/B traffic down.Quote from: Life in Paradise on December 07, 2019, 01:06:27 PM
With that last photo and the ramps just to the south, that reminds me of the mess at US 41 just north of I-64 at Haubstadt/Warrenton IN. There are three truck stops at a lighted intersection just to the north of the cloverleaf. It is so close that the acceleration/deceleration lanes for the cloverleaf start basically at the intersection.
Nitpick: The ramp from WB I-64 to NB US 41 doesn't get an acceleration lane, and is instead signal controlled. Google Aerial Photo (https://goo.gl/maps/7JrfmAjyzVdrAZKn9)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: SSR_317 on December 09, 2019, 08:57:26 PM
Post by: SSR_317 on December 09, 2019, 08:57:26 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 07, 2019, 12:20:10 AMI like it. I assume there would be auxiliary lanes on NB 31 between the entry ramp from WB 24 and the exit loop to the relocated CoRd 100N as well as the reverse on SB 31 between the entry loop from the new alignment of CoRd 100N and the exit ramp to WB 24.
A bit on the fictional side, but here's a conceptualization I made of a full build out for the CR-100 / US-31 intersection.
(https://i.ibb.co/k4VKK15/W100-US31-Interchange-Concept.png)
Thoughts?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Buck87 on December 15, 2019, 02:08:10 PM
Post by: Buck87 on December 15, 2019, 02:08:10 PM
One week ago I drove US 31 from I-465 to US 20 for the first time
Put me down for being in the camp that says that while it doesn't need to be a full freeway, it should have all the remaining traffic lights removed, and preferably replaced with interchanges. I do like sprjus4's above proposal, and agree with SSR_317's suggestion of adding auxiliary lanes between the two exits to make it work better.
Also, on my drive last week I did roll my eyes at the fact that when the freeway ended north of Westfield the speed limit went up. I imagine that must be really frustrating coming the other way. "Hey look, this road is becoming a freeway! That must mean that the speed limit will be going from 60 up to.........55??? WTF!!!"
Put me down for being in the camp that says that while it doesn't need to be a full freeway, it should have all the remaining traffic lights removed, and preferably replaced with interchanges. I do like sprjus4's above proposal, and agree with SSR_317's suggestion of adding auxiliary lanes between the two exits to make it work better.
Also, on my drive last week I did roll my eyes at the fact that when the freeway ended north of Westfield the speed limit went up. I imagine that must be really frustrating coming the other way. "Hey look, this road is becoming a freeway! That must mean that the speed limit will be going from 60 up to.........55??? WTF!!!"
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: 2trailertrucker on December 16, 2019, 06:48:34 AM
Post by: 2trailertrucker on December 16, 2019, 06:48:34 AM
The 4lane divided 55 mph stretch is patrolled by the locals, so you better behave. But once you clear the light at Bakers Corners, hammer down. If you don't, you will get run over.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on December 16, 2019, 07:43:47 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on December 16, 2019, 07:43:47 AM
drive it enough and you will know where they hide, it's always the same places, once you know, you can go back to 70 mph.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on December 16, 2019, 10:37:21 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on December 16, 2019, 10:37:21 AM
Waze is your best friend for finding police.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on December 16, 2019, 08:40:08 PM
Post by: monty on December 16, 2019, 08:40:08 PM
Your illustration is close to one draft proposal I saw several years ago. Pushed the interchange north of 100 N to the road to the next county road - which also has a state police post. Then those leads trickle back south to the truck stop.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: edwaleni on December 17, 2019, 11:56:53 AM
Post by: edwaleni on December 17, 2019, 11:56:53 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on December 07, 2019, 11:06:29 PMQuote from: Life in Paradise on December 07, 2019, 01:06:27 PM
With that last photo and the ramps just to the south, that reminds me of the mess at US 41 just north of I-64 at Haubstadt/Warrenton IN. There are three truck stops at a lighted intersection just to the north of the cloverleaf. It is so close that the acceleration/deceleration lanes for the cloverleaf start basically at the intersection.
Nitpick: The ramp from WB I-64 to NB US 41 doesn't get an acceleration lane, and is instead signal controlled. Google Aerial Photo (https://goo.gl/maps/7JrfmAjyzVdrAZKn9)
Removed in 1999 due to so many trucks trying to reach Flying J and Loves on the left after leaving I-64 West. It was causing accidents with northbound US-41 drivers.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: theline on December 19, 2019, 02:57:27 AM
Post by: theline on December 19, 2019, 02:57:27 AM
There is still a lot of support in my area for making 31 a full freeway, though I suppose that could diminish once all traffic lights are eliminated. As for now, the U.S. 31 Coalition director at a recent meeting said that the progress is encouraging but the work isn't done: https://www.southbendtribune.com/news/foodforthought/u-s-improvements-on-mark-so-far/article_94c131b4-1dec-11ea-a011-0b3e4729ee2c.html (https://www.southbendtribune.com/news/foodforthought/u-s-improvements-on-mark-so-far/article_94c131b4-1dec-11ea-a011-0b3e4729ee2c.html).
The coalition wants the state to find the money to finish the freeway, which may take "$700 million to $900 million to complete." They don't think J-turns are the answer.
The coalition wants the state to find the money to finish the freeway, which may take "$700 million to $900 million to complete." They don't think J-turns are the answer.
QuoteThe two new overpasses and seven interchanges are big wins, but he doesn't agree with all the changes INDOT is proposing. Some of the 16 improvements being planned are what are called "J turns," where a right hand turn and re-entering the highway are necessary for U-turns rather than interchanges. "A J-turn is not a freeway," he said.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on December 19, 2019, 07:28:36 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on December 19, 2019, 07:28:36 AM
Quote from: theline on December 19, 2019, 02:57:27 AM
There is still a lot of support in my area for making 31 a full freeway, though I suppose that could diminish once all traffic lights are eliminated. As for now, the U.S. 31 Coalition director at a recent meeting said that the progress is encouraging but the work isn't done: https://www.southbendtribune.com/news/foodforthought/u-s-improvements-on-mark-so-far/article_94c131b4-1dec-11ea-a011-0b3e4729ee2c.html (https://www.southbendtribune.com/news/foodforthought/u-s-improvements-on-mark-so-far/article_94c131b4-1dec-11ea-a011-0b3e4729ee2c.html).
The coalition wants the state to find the money to finish the freeway, which may take "$700 million to $900 million to complete." They don't think J-turns are the answer.QuoteThe two new overpasses and seven interchanges are big wins, but he doesn't agree with all the changes INDOT is proposing. Some of the 16 improvements being planned are what are called "J turns," where a right hand turn and re-entering the highway are necessary for U-turns rather than interchanges. "A J-turn is not a freeway," he said.
$700-900 million could pay to add a 3rd lane to a lot of miles on 65 and 70, and that will improve safety more than converting the rural parts of 31 to freeway.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Terry Shea on December 19, 2019, 03:53:17 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on December 19, 2019, 03:53:17 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on December 19, 2019, 07:28:36 AMWhy ration safety?Quote from: theline on December 19, 2019, 02:57:27 AM
There is still a lot of support in my area for making 31 a full freeway, though I suppose that could diminish once all traffic lights are eliminated. As for now, the U.S. 31 Coalition director at a recent meeting said that the progress is encouraging but the work isn't done: https://www.southbendtribune.com/news/foodforthought/u-s-improvements-on-mark-so-far/article_94c131b4-1dec-11ea-a011-0b3e4729ee2c.html (https://www.southbendtribune.com/news/foodforthought/u-s-improvements-on-mark-so-far/article_94c131b4-1dec-11ea-a011-0b3e4729ee2c.html).
The coalition wants the state to find the money to finish the freeway, which may take "$700 million to $900 million to complete." They don't think J-turns are the answer.QuoteThe two new overpasses and seven interchanges are big wins, but he doesn’t agree with all the changes INDOT is proposing. Some of the 16 improvements being planned are what are called “J turns,” where a right hand turn and re-entering the highway are necessary for U-turns rather than interchanges. “A J-turn is not a freeway,” he said.
$700-900 million could pay to add a 3rd lane to a lot of miles on 65 and 70, and that will improve safety more than converting the rural parts of 31 to freeway.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on December 19, 2019, 04:02:07 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on December 19, 2019, 04:02:07 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on December 19, 2019, 03:53:17 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on December 19, 2019, 07:28:36 AMWhy ration safety?Quote from: theline on December 19, 2019, 02:57:27 AM
There is still a lot of support in my area for making 31 a full freeway, though I suppose that could diminish once all traffic lights are eliminated. As for now, the U.S. 31 Coalition director at a recent meeting said that the progress is encouraging but the work isn't done: https://www.southbendtribune.com/news/foodforthought/u-s-improvements-on-mark-so-far/article_94c131b4-1dec-11ea-a011-0b3e4729ee2c.html (https://www.southbendtribune.com/news/foodforthought/u-s-improvements-on-mark-so-far/article_94c131b4-1dec-11ea-a011-0b3e4729ee2c.html).
The coalition wants the state to find the money to finish the freeway, which may take "$700 million to $900 million to complete." They don't think J-turns are the answer.QuoteThe two new overpasses and seven interchanges are big wins, but he doesn’t agree with all the changes INDOT is proposing. Some of the 16 improvements being planned are what are called “J turns,” where a right hand turn and re-entering the highway are necessary for U-turns rather than interchanges. “A J-turn is not a freeway,” he said.
$700-900 million could pay to add a 3rd lane to a lot of miles on 65 and 70, and that will improve safety more than converting the rural parts of 31 to freeway.
I wouldn't ration it, but as funds become available, I'd put it towards the highest-benefit projects first.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ibthebigd on December 19, 2019, 04:19:57 PM
Post by: ibthebigd on December 19, 2019, 04:19:57 PM
If Michigan want's an I-67 to Grand Rapids then go for it.
SM-G950U
SM-G950U
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on December 19, 2019, 04:38:42 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on December 19, 2019, 04:38:42 PM
An interstate-grade US-31 between Indianapolis and South Bend would be ideal and is a good long-range vision, but I agree that I-65 and I-70 widening should have top priority. Those highways have high truck percentages and moderate traffic volumes that warrant 6-lanes. US-31 is a rural 4-lane expressway with tolerable traffic conditions, and billions of dollars shouldn't be shoved at it to make it freeway grade as I-65 and I-70 sit there still with only 4-lanes.
Once I-65 and I-70 have been largely expanded to 6-lanes throughout Indiana, then we can start looking at upgrading US-31 to interstate standards.
Once I-65 and I-70 have been largely expanded to 6-lanes throughout Indiana, then we can start looking at upgrading US-31 to interstate standards.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on December 19, 2019, 10:51:32 PM
Post by: monty on December 19, 2019, 10:51:32 PM
The thought of J turns on this segment scare me. You've got people going 70+ mph approaching semi trucks making U turns. I am lucky to find an open space to cross the highway safely in a semi as it is now - let alone U turning.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on December 22, 2019, 05:44:13 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on December 22, 2019, 05:44:13 PM
Quote from: monty on December 19, 2019, 10:51:32 PM
The thought of J turns on this segment scare me. You've got people going 70+ mph approaching semi trucks making U turns. I am lucky to find an open space to cross the highway safely in a semi as it is now - let alone U turning.
these are band aids. also i just learned that division road will be an interchange, and it is currently on it's way to design
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on December 23, 2019, 03:57:45 AM
Post by: sparker on December 23, 2019, 03:57:45 AM
Since the long-term plan by INDOT was, at least originally, to deploy a full freeway (Interstate grade?!) along US 31 -- and that plan was publicized at least ten years ago -- locals may see some form of "bait & switch" being applied here. Of course it's a two-way street -- if they want that full freeway treatment, they've got to put up with property taking and indirect access to the new facility. Obviously the scaling down of the project is primarily for fiscal reasons -- but it will be interesting to see how the agency will respond to those who claim that they're being short-changed.
Since Indy-Kokomo is planned to be freeway in any case, the "downscaled" territory is essentially the 25 miles north of the end of the new Kokomo bypass to around the IN 16 junction, plus a few locations north of there with private access points -- problematic, but only a portion of the full corridor. My guess is that INDOT will upgrade the remainder of the route where the facility is already an effective expressway without private access, put whatever interim facilities (including those J-turns) are deemed appropriate along the "conventional" divided highway -- while making it clear that they are interim measures -- but offer only a "ballpark" timetable for full freeway corridor completion. Then they can simply procrastinate until funding is clearly identified or, alternately, they're put on the political hotseat to expedite the project. Either way, it's probably a decidedly long-term situation.
Since Indy-Kokomo is planned to be freeway in any case, the "downscaled" territory is essentially the 25 miles north of the end of the new Kokomo bypass to around the IN 16 junction, plus a few locations north of there with private access points -- problematic, but only a portion of the full corridor. My guess is that INDOT will upgrade the remainder of the route where the facility is already an effective expressway without private access, put whatever interim facilities (including those J-turns) are deemed appropriate along the "conventional" divided highway -- while making it clear that they are interim measures -- but offer only a "ballpark" timetable for full freeway corridor completion. Then they can simply procrastinate until funding is clearly identified or, alternately, they're put on the political hotseat to expedite the project. Either way, it's probably a decidedly long-term situation.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: SSR_317 on December 27, 2019, 12:31:02 PM
Post by: SSR_317 on December 27, 2019, 12:31:02 PM
Quote from: monty on December 19, 2019, 10:51:32 PMAmen! Do it right (full freeway) or don't do it at all (leave the signalized intersections until you can afford interchanges).
The thought of J turns on this segment scare me. You've got people going 70+ mph approaching semi trucks making U turns. I am lucky to find an open space to cross the highway safely in a semi as it is now - let alone U turning.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ysuindy on January 24, 2020, 11:51:14 AM
Post by: ysuindy on January 24, 2020, 11:51:14 AM
Came across this page today in a link from a newspaper article
https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
Includes a map with scheduled dates for each improvement
https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
Includes a map with scheduled dates for each improvement
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ysuindy on January 24, 2020, 11:55:17 AM
Post by: ysuindy on January 24, 2020, 11:55:17 AM
Here's the newspaper article I referenced in the previous post with the link (as I see this post starts a new page)
https://www.heraldbulletin.com/indiana/opinion/joe-mcguinness-smarter-and-safer-us/article_a038f42c-0079-5294-a511-0c1f9c3e5419.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=postfity&utm_content=postfityaa6c4
https://www.heraldbulletin.com/indiana/opinion/joe-mcguinness-smarter-and-safer-us/article_a038f42c-0079-5294-a511-0c1f9c3e5419.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=postfity&utm_content=postfityaa6c4
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Life in Paradise on January 24, 2020, 01:26:45 PM
Post by: Life in Paradise on January 24, 2020, 01:26:45 PM
After reading the news article and the link to the US31 project, I believe that we have the answer to the I-67 question. INDOT is pushing for free flow, but not interstate freeway stating that the cost and delays would not be worth any additional benefit. Perhaps the state legislature could review the speed limits on different types of state roadways.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Buck87 on January 24, 2020, 01:33:07 PM
Post by: Buck87 on January 24, 2020, 01:33:07 PM
Quote from: ysuindy on January 24, 2020, 11:51:14 AM
Came across this page today in a link from a newspaper article
https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
Includes a map with scheduled dates for each improvement
Nice map.
Looks like there's one mistake on there. It shows 276th Street getting an interchange, which would be 5 interchanges, while the wording in the text portion of that page lists 4 interchanges and does not include 276th Street. So one of those is wrong, and I'd guess it's the map, and that 276th is either supposed to be listed as an intersection redesign or overpass.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ysuindy on January 24, 2020, 01:53:38 PM
Post by: ysuindy on January 24, 2020, 01:53:38 PM
Quote from: Buck87 on January 24, 2020, 01:33:07 PMQuote from: ysuindy on January 24, 2020, 11:51:14 AM
Came across this page today in a link from a newspaper article
https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
Includes a map with scheduled dates for each improvement
Nice map.
Looks like there's one mistake on there. It shows 276th Street getting an interchange, which would be 5 interchanges, while the wording in the text portion of that page lists 4 interchanges and does not include 276th Street. So one of those is wrong, and I'd guess it's the map, and that 276th is either supposed to be listed as an intersection redesign or overpass.
276th Street is where Reynolds Farm Equipment is and is the road to Beck's Hybrids. I'm not sure how much traffic Beck's generates, but given the amount of farm equipment that would be delivered to Reynolds, I'm going to guess there is going to be some level of access to 31 there - interchange or intersection redesign. The Reynolds are a long time Hamilton County family and business - if anyone with a business along that stretch of 31 has the clout to get access, I would imagine they are at or near the top of that list.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on January 24, 2020, 02:53:14 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on January 24, 2020, 02:53:14 PM
There is FOR SURE an interchange going at 276th and 31. It is the next major corridor for Ham Co.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on January 24, 2020, 04:24:17 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on January 24, 2020, 04:24:17 PM
Speaking of the upcoming upgrades to US 31, I did a fun little experiment using INDOT's district maps, which show the mile markers for every state highway. I've complied a list of what could be the exit numbers for all the proposed interchanges along US 31 from Indy to South Bend. Not sure if anyone is really interested in this but it was fun to think about.
Exit 138 - 236th Street
Exit 142 - 276th Street
Exit 150 - Division Road
Exit 170 - SR 18
Exit 180 - Business US 31
Exit 183 - US 24 (existing)
Exit 203 - SR 25 (existing)
Exit 217 - SR 10
And, just out of curiosity, I considered what exit numbers would be like on the segment of the St. Joseph Valley Parkway around South Bend using the US 31 mile markers, starting with the current Exit 246 that is currently at the interchange with US 20. Right now INDOT uses the US 20 mile markers for the US 31 concurrency of the bypass. The numbers probably aren't precise but they should be close.
Exit 248 - SR 25
Exit 249 - Mayflower Road
Exit 251 - SR 2
Exit 253 - US 20
Exit 255 - Nimitz Pkwy/Toll Road
Exit 256 - Cleveland Road
Personally, if we were to number the exits around South Bend, I think US 31's numbers should trump US 20's on the western part of the bypass. US 20 mile markers should be used for the exits to the east of US 31. US 31's exit would be US 20 Exit 79 and the eastern end of the freeway, County Road 17 would be Exit 95.
Exit 138 - 236th Street
Exit 142 - 276th Street
Exit 150 - Division Road
Exit 170 - SR 18
Exit 180 - Business US 31
Exit 183 - US 24 (existing)
Exit 203 - SR 25 (existing)
Exit 217 - SR 10
And, just out of curiosity, I considered what exit numbers would be like on the segment of the St. Joseph Valley Parkway around South Bend using the US 31 mile markers, starting with the current Exit 246 that is currently at the interchange with US 20. Right now INDOT uses the US 20 mile markers for the US 31 concurrency of the bypass. The numbers probably aren't precise but they should be close.
Exit 248 - SR 25
Exit 249 - Mayflower Road
Exit 251 - SR 2
Exit 253 - US 20
Exit 255 - Nimitz Pkwy/Toll Road
Exit 256 - Cleveland Road
Personally, if we were to number the exits around South Bend, I think US 31's numbers should trump US 20's on the western part of the bypass. US 20 mile markers should be used for the exits to the east of US 31. US 31's exit would be US 20 Exit 79 and the eastern end of the freeway, County Road 17 would be Exit 95.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on January 25, 2020, 11:12:23 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on January 25, 2020, 11:12:23 AM
Quote from: Life in Paradise on January 24, 2020, 01:26:45 PMSince law permits 65 mph along non-interstate freeway segments, they should evaluate allowing this along non-freeway highway segments as well, at least on corridors like US-31, along with others in the state such as US-231 north of Owensboro, KY. This would make the speed same as a freeway upgrade as well. I imagine most people already drive 65 - 70 mph today, an increase would bring the speed limit closely to reality.
After reading the news article and the link to the US31 project, I believe that we have the answer to the I-67 question. INDOT is pushing for free flow, but not interstate freeway stating that the cost and delays would not be worth any additional benefit. Perhaps the state legislature could review the speed limits on different types of state roadways.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Buck87 on January 25, 2020, 12:01:17 PM
Post by: Buck87 on January 25, 2020, 12:01:17 PM
Noticed another inconsistency between the wording on that page and the map. It states...
...but the map shows "new bridge separation (remove signal)" for Division Rd and "intersection reconstruction (remove signal)" for 218 north junction
QuoteIn 2019, an additional $75 million in state funding was earmarked to construct two additional interchanges on U.S. 31 — at Division Road in Tipton County, and at S.R. 218 North Junction in Miami County — and to construct a railroad overpass over U.S. 31, north of Argos in Marshall County.
...but the map shows "new bridge separation (remove signal)" for Division Rd and "intersection reconstruction (remove signal)" for 218 north junction
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Revive 755 on January 25, 2020, 12:56:58 PM
Post by: Revive 755 on January 25, 2020, 12:56:58 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 25, 2020, 11:12:23 AM
Since law permits 65 mph along non-interstate freeway segments, they should evaluate allowing this along non-freeway highway segments as well, at least on corridors like US-31, along with others in the state such as US-231 north of Owensboro, KY. This would make the speed same as a freeway upgrade as well. I imagine most people already drive 65 - 70 mph today, an increase would bring the speed limit closely to reality.
I second this - US 41 has many spots where 60 mph is nonsensical and widely disobeyed.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on January 25, 2020, 01:33:40 PM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on January 25, 2020, 01:33:40 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 25, 2020, 12:56:58 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on January 25, 2020, 11:12:23 AM
Since law permits 65 mph along non-interstate freeway segments, they should evaluate allowing this along non-freeway highway segments as well, at least on corridors like US-31, along with others in the state such as US-231 north of Owensboro, KY. This would make the speed same as a freeway upgrade as well. I imagine most people already drive 65 - 70 mph today, an increase would bring the speed limit closely to reality.
I second this - US 41 has many spots where 60 mph is nonsensical and widely disobeyed.
Could US 24 and SR 25 also get a speed limit increase as well? That road looks like a freeway to me as well.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Life in Paradise on January 25, 2020, 02:38:19 PM
Post by: Life in Paradise on January 25, 2020, 02:38:19 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 25, 2020, 12:56:58 PMAgreed. There are stretches I drive both south and north of Vincennes where traffic lights are over 10 miles apart (north of V-city its actually about 30 miles) and the road is straight with sweeping curves. Would be easy to drive 65 (and they did back in the early 70s).Quote from: sprjus4 on January 25, 2020, 11:12:23 AM
Since law permits 65 mph along non-interstate freeway segments, they should evaluate allowing this along non-freeway highway segments as well, at least on corridors like US-31, along with others in the state such as US-231 north of Owensboro, KY. This would make the speed same as a freeway upgrade as well. I imagine most people already drive 65 - 70 mph today, an increase would bring the speed limit closely to reality.
I second this - US 41 has many spots where 60 mph is nonsensical and widely disobeyed.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on January 25, 2020, 06:18:55 PM
Post by: I-39 on January 25, 2020, 06:18:55 PM
Quote from: Life in Paradise on January 24, 2020, 01:26:45 PM
After reading the news article and the link to the US31 project, I believe that we have the answer to the I-67 question. INDOT is pushing for free flow, but not interstate freeway stating that the cost and delays would not be worth any additional benefit. Perhaps the state legislature could review the speed limits on different types of state roadways.
I'm not sure about that. I think for the foreseeable future they are pushing for free flow, but I still think the super long range plan is to make the US 31 corridor a full freeway. I have a feeling once free flow is achieved, communities along the corridor will push for an Interstate designation which will require INDOT to make whatever remains of the expressway after this project fully access controlled.
It won't happen in the next decade, but I think this is simply the next step towards an eventual Interstate. But I agree there are bigger priorities that INDOT needs to work on first.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ibthebigd on January 25, 2020, 07:35:10 PM
Post by: ibthebigd on January 25, 2020, 07:35:10 PM
I feel like the interstate designation will depend on if Michigan wants to build one all the way to Grand Rapids
SM-G950U
SM-G950U
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on January 25, 2020, 08:49:18 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on January 25, 2020, 08:49:18 PM
Quote from: ibthebigd on January 25, 2020, 07:35:10 PMWith the exception of a 3 mile gap that needs to be filled between the US-31 freeway and I-196, the route already exists as a complete freeway.
I feel like the interstate designation will depend on if Michigan wants to build one all the way to Grand Rapids
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on January 26, 2020, 04:44:45 AM
Post by: sparker on January 26, 2020, 04:44:45 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 25, 2020, 08:49:18 PMQuote from: ibthebigd on January 25, 2020, 07:35:10 PMWith the exception of a 3 mile gap that needs to be filled between the US-31 freeway and I-196, the route already exists as a complete freeway.
I feel like the interstate designation will depend on if Michigan wants to build one all the way to Grand Rapids
Which won't directly segue from US 31 to I-196 but instead curve over to I-94 one interchange west of the 196 split to avoid an environmentally sensitive watershed. SB, continuity on US 31 will require using a loop from WB 94 to the US 31 extension. While not unprecedented (hello, I-80 in IL et. al.), such an arrangement isn't looked on favorably by AASHTO these days; even with all freeway-to-freeway nonstop connections, getting a I-67 designated over the full corridor wouldn't be a certainty no matter what IN did with their segment.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on February 13, 2020, 10:44:23 PM
Post by: monty on February 13, 2020, 10:44:23 PM
US 31 Coalition https://wsbt.com/news/local/plan-for-improvements-on-us-31-getting-pushback-for-not-moving-fast-enough
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on February 14, 2020, 12:15:17 AM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on February 14, 2020, 12:15:17 AM
Quote from: monty on February 13, 2020, 10:44:23 PM
US 31 Coalition https://wsbt.com/news/local/plan-for-improvements-on-us-31-getting-pushback-for-not-moving-fast-enough
INDOT does not need to spend >$1 billion on upgrading US 31 into a freeway if it only saves ~9 minutes over the current system, and I don't think that it needs a freeway or interstate. Hey Indiana, look at Wisconsin or Ohio for examples (interchanges at major cities and junctions, speed limit 65-70, no traffic lights, etc.)!
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on February 18, 2020, 10:30:40 AM
Post by: monty on February 18, 2020, 10:30:40 AM
Five J turns planned for Miami County on US 31: https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/local_news/indot-installing-j-turns-on-u-s-in-miami-co/article_885776b0-51ca-11ea-a0f5-23847354222e.html
Excerpts below. Worth reading it all. Quite controversial.
INDOT confirmed last week it will install the intersections, which the state now calls median U-turns, at the intersections of 850 South, Ind. 218 South junction that goes into Bunker, Ind. 218 North junction that runs by Grissom Air Reserve Base, 100 North and Ind. 16.
INDOT is installing two new full-on interchanges in Miami County at Ind. 18 and Business 31. Those projects are projected to be finished by 2023.
Excerpts below. Worth reading it all. Quite controversial.
INDOT confirmed last week it will install the intersections, which the state now calls median U-turns, at the intersections of 850 South, Ind. 218 South junction that goes into Bunker, Ind. 218 North junction that runs by Grissom Air Reserve Base, 100 North and Ind. 16.
INDOT is installing two new full-on interchanges in Miami County at Ind. 18 and Business 31. Those projects are projected to be finished by 2023.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Finrod on February 18, 2020, 10:53:53 AM
Post by: Finrod on February 18, 2020, 10:53:53 AM
"It's just a cheap way of getting out of building interchanges." (regarding J-turns)
Can't say I disagree with that sentiment.
Can't say I disagree with that sentiment.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on February 18, 2020, 10:58:25 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on February 18, 2020, 10:58:25 AM
Quote from: Finrod on February 18, 2020, 10:53:53 AMI think indot will eventually replace these with interchanges eventually. They probably consider this a 1st step towards that. But they also shafted Evansville on the Lloyd, instead of new interchanges there they're doing "displaced left turns"
"It's just a cheap way of getting out of building interchanges." (regarding J-turns)
Can't say I disagree with that sentiment.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on February 18, 2020, 05:36:39 PM
Post by: sparker on February 18, 2020, 05:36:39 PM
^^^^^^^^^
After reading the full article, it seems that INDOT is a bit "tone-deaf" regarding pushback against J-turns -- particularly if they're confined to one particular county. It's a virtual certainty that Miami County, feeling shortchanged by INDOT -- specifically since their spokespersons have all but admitted that it's being done as a cost-saving device -- will complain to their representatives, who in turn (unless completely in thrall to state agencies) will put pressure for an expedited schedule to replace these J-turns with interchanges -- or perhaps forestall the installation of the turns; retaining signalized intersections until funding for interchanges can be identified and sequestered. INDOT has seemingly painted itself into a corner by proclaiming several years ago that its goal was to upgrade US 31 into an Interstate-grade freeway from I-465 to the MI state line -- and now that it's backtracking on that with partial/interim solutions (quite obviously due to various funding shortfalls), a significant level of controversy and opposition can be expected. IMO, a more leisurely rate of full upgrades to a limited-access facility is vastly preferable to installing stopgap measures and attempting to mollify the local drivers who must traverse those invariably slow-speed J-turn configurations. Achieving a "signal-less" lengthy facility can be done safely and correctly or "on the cheap"; it seems pointless to spend the funds to install suboptimal measures when such will be obviated in relatively short order by political pressure translated into agency expedition -- just to proclaim that one has a "free-flowing" highway. :pan:
After reading the full article, it seems that INDOT is a bit "tone-deaf" regarding pushback against J-turns -- particularly if they're confined to one particular county. It's a virtual certainty that Miami County, feeling shortchanged by INDOT -- specifically since their spokespersons have all but admitted that it's being done as a cost-saving device -- will complain to their representatives, who in turn (unless completely in thrall to state agencies) will put pressure for an expedited schedule to replace these J-turns with interchanges -- or perhaps forestall the installation of the turns; retaining signalized intersections until funding for interchanges can be identified and sequestered. INDOT has seemingly painted itself into a corner by proclaiming several years ago that its goal was to upgrade US 31 into an Interstate-grade freeway from I-465 to the MI state line -- and now that it's backtracking on that with partial/interim solutions (quite obviously due to various funding shortfalls), a significant level of controversy and opposition can be expected. IMO, a more leisurely rate of full upgrades to a limited-access facility is vastly preferable to installing stopgap measures and attempting to mollify the local drivers who must traverse those invariably slow-speed J-turn configurations. Achieving a "signal-less" lengthy facility can be done safely and correctly or "on the cheap"; it seems pointless to spend the funds to install suboptimal measures when such will be obviated in relatively short order by political pressure translated into agency expedition -- just to proclaim that one has a "free-flowing" highway. :pan:
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on February 18, 2020, 07:40:59 PM
Post by: monty on February 18, 2020, 07:40:59 PM
Very well stated Sparker. This is a political hot potato.
An opinion of mine about the safety of such J turns applied to this corridor: Consider that U turns are illegal on fully limited access freeways / interstate highways for safety purposes. Now we are taking a highway corridor that has stretches of interstate quality roadway and forcing semi trucks to make U turns on them. The first fatality on the new Kokomo US 31 segment involved a small truck making an illegal U turn on it. I am not an engineer. I respect their work. But regardless of engineered intent, drivers on particular roadways will exhibit behaviors that are beyond engineering. Each of the remaining stoplights on this corridor become more dangerous as they diminish in number. Drivers don't expect to stop. Same goes for U turning in a median. Drivers are not expecting them to happen. I think this mitigates the proclaimed engineering safety factors applied. This is not just a local highway. It has interstate traffic and is being driven as such by those who are not familiar with the little details.
An opinion of mine about the safety of such J turns applied to this corridor: Consider that U turns are illegal on fully limited access freeways / interstate highways for safety purposes. Now we are taking a highway corridor that has stretches of interstate quality roadway and forcing semi trucks to make U turns on them. The first fatality on the new Kokomo US 31 segment involved a small truck making an illegal U turn on it. I am not an engineer. I respect their work. But regardless of engineered intent, drivers on particular roadways will exhibit behaviors that are beyond engineering. Each of the remaining stoplights on this corridor become more dangerous as they diminish in number. Drivers don't expect to stop. Same goes for U turning in a median. Drivers are not expecting them to happen. I think this mitigates the proclaimed engineering safety factors applied. This is not just a local highway. It has interstate traffic and is being driven as such by those who are not familiar with the little details.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on February 18, 2020, 08:54:58 PM
Post by: I-39 on February 18, 2020, 08:54:58 PM
Adding to what has been said above, I'll ask this question.
Why must US 31 be an outlier?
With the construction of I-69, every other corner of Indiana is being connected with an Interstate. Why must the US 31 corridor between South Bend and Indianapolis be different? Surely, it generates more traffic than most of the new I-69 corridor? Even if it doesn't happen in the near term, the long term goal should still be Interstate-grade freeway between South Bend and Indianapolis.
Why must US 31 be an outlier?
With the construction of I-69, every other corner of Indiana is being connected with an Interstate. Why must the US 31 corridor between South Bend and Indianapolis be different? Surely, it generates more traffic than most of the new I-69 corridor? Even if it doesn't happen in the near term, the long term goal should still be Interstate-grade freeway between South Bend and Indianapolis.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on February 18, 2020, 09:09:11 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on February 18, 2020, 09:09:11 PM
Quote from: I-39 on February 18, 2020, 08:54:58 PMI agree, especially when billions of dollars are currently being invested to upgrade SR-37 to interstate standards when there was already a 4-lane divided highway similar to the state of US-31 there. I'm not saying I'm against the upgrade projects, both are certainly needed, but the same efforts should be put onto the US-31 corridor in the near future.
Adding to what has been said above, I'll ask this question.
Why must US 31 be an outlier?
With the construction of I-69, every other corner of Indiana is being connected with an Interstate. Why must the US 31 corridor between South Bend and Indianapolis be different? Surely, it generates more traffic than most of the new I-69 corridor? Even if it doesn't happen in the near term, the long term goal should still be Interstate-grade freeway between South Bend and Indianapolis.
I would understand it more if they were a state that took a more conservative approach to large-scale corridor upgrades, but if I-69 is any indication, they're not.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on February 19, 2020, 12:55:53 AM
Post by: sparker on February 19, 2020, 12:55:53 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 18, 2020, 09:09:11 PMQuote from: I-39 on February 18, 2020, 08:54:58 PMI agree, especially when billions of dollars are currently being invested to upgrade SR-37 to interstate standards when there was already a 4-lane divided highway similar to the state of US-31 there. I'm not saying I'm against the upgrade projects, both are certainly needed, but the same efforts should be put onto the US-31 corridor in the near future.
Adding to what has been said above, I'll ask this question.
Why must US 31 be an outlier?
With the construction of I-69, every other corner of Indiana is being connected with an Interstate. Why must the US 31 corridor between South Bend and Indianapolis be different? Surely, it generates more traffic than most of the new I-69 corridor? Even if it doesn't happen in the near term, the long term goal should still be Interstate-grade freeway between South Bend and Indianapolis.
I would understand it more if they were a state that took a more conservative approach to large-scale corridor upgrades, but if I-69 is any indication, they're not.
It's highly likely that the interim measures planned to be applied to the US 31 corridor are simply INDOT performing "thumb twiddling" until the fiscal impact of the I-69 corridor -- including their share of the Ohio River bridge -- have been internalized (other statewide project funding, such as the Heartland corridor, probably figures into all this as well). Once those expenses are in the rear-view mirror -- and if "spot" expenses elsewhere can be kept to a reasonable level -- then funding to bring the US 31 corridor out to what has been long promised might shake free. What needs to be avoided is a sense of agency complacency if the interim measures such as currently proposed come to fruition. But somehow I think the driving public arrayed along US 31 might have something to say about that!
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on February 19, 2020, 07:52:36 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on February 19, 2020, 07:52:36 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 18, 2020, 09:09:11 PMQuote from: I-39 on February 18, 2020, 08:54:58 PMI agree, especially when billions of dollars are currently being invested to upgrade SR-37 to interstate standards when there was already a 4-lane divided highway similar to the state of US-31 there. I'm not saying I'm against the upgrade projects, both are certainly needed, but the same efforts should be put onto the US-31 corridor in the near future.
Adding to what has been said above, I'll ask this question.
Why must US 31 be an outlier?
With the construction of I-69, every other corner of Indiana is being connected with an Interstate. Why must the US 31 corridor between South Bend and Indianapolis be different? Surely, it generates more traffic than most of the new I-69 corridor? Even if it doesn't happen in the near term, the long term goal should still be Interstate-grade freeway between South Bend and Indianapolis.
I would understand it more if they were a state that took a more conservative approach to large-scale corridor upgrades, but if I-69 is any indication, they're not.
IN 37 between Indy and Bloomington gets traffic similar to the parts of US 31 that have already been upgraded. The sections left don't get traffic anywhere near those levels.
The one J-turn I see that is going to be really bad is the one just north of US 24, as that one will have a whole bunch of trucks. The other areas where they are going in don't get a lot of truck traffic and won't be a big deal. That either needs to become an interchange or just live with having a light there.
I've traveled both US 31 and I-65 a whole lot. By a large margin, widening the rest of I-65 to six lanes will do more to improve traffic and safety than converting the rest of US 31 to freeway. That should be the higher priority.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on February 19, 2020, 08:08:39 PM
Post by: monty on February 19, 2020, 08:08:39 PM
Took a quick look and it appears that the US 31 traffic count in Tipton County (unimproved) is slightly greater than the I 69 traffic count in Morgan County. Both around 25k. It'd be an interesting project to compare different segments.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on February 19, 2020, 09:12:27 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on February 19, 2020, 09:12:27 PM
I've always wondered myself. If I-69 did not exist and there was no desire for a freeway between Indianapolis and Evansville, would SR 37 be changed between Indy and Bloomington in a similar fashion as US 31 is today? Hypothetically, I could see SR 37 converted to a freeway from I-465 south to past SR 144 and then a new freeway SR 37 built outside of Martinsville (a la like the Kokomo bypass,) and then the section of SR 37 from Walnut Street to the north to Walnut Street in the south converted to freeway around Bloomington. INDOT in this manner would leave two sections as they are today, but at least SR 37 would be free flowing.
And as for I-69 already, don't think that the state didn't do things conservatively. On the first four sections they did the bare minimum when it came to building that highway already. They eliminated a couple of exits, a potential rest area, mileage signs. The road quality would probably be a little worse if there were more traffic on it, they already skimped out on that highway. If INDOT had it their way I-69 would only be six lanes wide on a very short section around Bloomington, it was supposed to be four lanes for nearly all of Section 5.
And as for I-69 already, don't think that the state didn't do things conservatively. On the first four sections they did the bare minimum when it came to building that highway already. They eliminated a couple of exits, a potential rest area, mileage signs. The road quality would probably be a little worse if there were more traffic on it, they already skimped out on that highway. If INDOT had it their way I-69 would only be six lanes wide on a very short section around Bloomington, it was supposed to be four lanes for nearly all of Section 5.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ysuindy on February 20, 2020, 04:08:47 PM
Post by: ysuindy on February 20, 2020, 04:08:47 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on February 19, 2020, 07:52:36 AMQuote from: sprjus4 on February 18, 2020, 09:09:11 PMQuote from: I-39 on February 18, 2020, 08:54:58 PMI agree, especially when billions of dollars are currently being invested to upgrade SR-37 to interstate standards when there was already a 4-lane divided highway similar to the state of US-31 there. I'm not saying I'm against the upgrade projects, both are certainly needed, but the same efforts should be put onto the US-31 corridor in the near future.
Adding to what has been said above, I'll ask this question.
Why must US 31 be an outlier?
With the construction of I-69, every other corner of Indiana is being connected with an Interstate. Why must the US 31 corridor between South Bend and Indianapolis be different? Surely, it generates more traffic than most of the new I-69 corridor? Even if it doesn't happen in the near term, the long term goal should still be Interstate-grade freeway between South Bend and Indianapolis.
I would understand it more if they were a state that took a more conservative approach to large-scale corridor upgrades, but if I-69 is any indication, they're not.
IN 37 between Indy and Bloomington gets traffic similar to the parts of US 31 that have already been upgraded. The sections left don't get traffic anywhere near those levels.
The one J-turn I see that is going to be really bad is the one just north of US 24, as that one will have a whole bunch of trucks. The other areas where they are going in don't get a lot of truck traffic and won't be a big deal. That either needs to become an interchange or just live with having a light there.
I've traveled both US 31 and I-65 a whole lot. By a large margin, widening the rest of I-65 to six lanes will do more to improve traffic and safety than converting the rest of US 31 to freeway. That should be the higher priority.
I completely agree with all of this. I would add getting six lanes on I-70 should be a priority over converting the rest of US 31 to freeway.
As to the J turn at 100N (just north of US 24 at the truck stop), I'm really struggling to see how the movement from southbound 31 to the truck stop (east of the freeway) can be done safely.
Using the distance feature on Google Maps (yeah not exact) I'm getting about 1,000 feet from the end of the ramp from 24 to northbound 31 to the intersection at 100N where you would turn in to the truck stop. They can't put the J turn there, can they?
Southbound traffic will need to navigate the J turn, head uphill on 31 and cross both lanes of traffic, also dealing with the merging traffic from 24.
Unless they push the J turn to south of the 24 interchange.
I think having traffic navigate both the loop ramps at 24 (south to east, east to north) would be safer than a J turn north of the interchange.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: bmeiser on February 20, 2020, 08:11:51 PM
Post by: bmeiser on February 20, 2020, 08:11:51 PM
All I know is when they J turn that intersection, regardless of how they do it, the BP by Grissom will get my southbound business instead of that truck stop.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on March 02, 2020, 06:24:58 PM
Post by: monty on March 02, 2020, 06:24:58 PM
Today's Kokomo Tribune with the "push-back" from legislators: https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/local_news/legislators-planned-j-turns-concern-residents/article_040f99b6-5a74-11ea-bf25-6f88078f0337.html
Manning said he has received many phone calls and emails from area residents opposing the intersections, and he has relayed those concerns to INDOT.
He said he also has concerns about installing median U-turns on U.S. 31 because the state has never built one on the intersections of such a busy and heavily trafficked highway.
"I understand that INDOT has the data that show J-turns help with safety, and that's why they want them," he said. "However, I'm concerned because I have yet to see an example of a J-turn on a highway like U.S. 31 ... While it's not interstate level, it's still a very busy road with a lot of people driving quickly." - Rep Ethan Manning
Manning said he has received many phone calls and emails from area residents opposing the intersections, and he has relayed those concerns to INDOT.
He said he also has concerns about installing median U-turns on U.S. 31 because the state has never built one on the intersections of such a busy and heavily trafficked highway.
"I understand that INDOT has the data that show J-turns help with safety, and that's why they want them," he said. "However, I'm concerned because I have yet to see an example of a J-turn on a highway like U.S. 31 ... While it's not interstate level, it's still a very busy road with a lot of people driving quickly." - Rep Ethan Manning
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Terry Shea on March 02, 2020, 09:49:09 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on March 02, 2020, 09:49:09 PM
Quote from: monty on March 02, 2020, 06:24:58 PMI don't understand what they're thinking with using J-turns to eliminate stop lights. In Michigan we have a lot of these J-turns, but it often still requires a stop light at the intersections plus stoplights at the end of the J-turns.
Today’s Kokomo Tribune with the “push-back” from legislators: https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/local_news/legislators-planned-j-turns-concern-residents/article_040f99b6-5a74-11ea-bf25-6f88078f0337.html
Manning said he has received many phone calls and emails from area residents opposing the intersections, and he has relayed those concerns to INDOT.
He said he also has concerns about installing median U-turns on U.S. 31 because the state has never built one on the intersections of such a busy and heavily trafficked highway.
“I understand that INDOT has the data that show J-turns help with safety, and that’s why they want them,” he said. “However, I’m concerned because I have yet to see an example of a J-turn on a highway like U.S. 31 … While it’s not interstate level, it’s still a very busy road with a lot of people driving quickly.” - Rep Ethan Manning
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on March 04, 2020, 12:11:32 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on March 04, 2020, 12:11:32 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 02, 2020, 09:49:09 PMQuote from: monty on March 02, 2020, 06:24:58 PMI don't understand what they're thinking with using J-turns to eliminate stop lights. In Michigan we have a lot of these J-turns, but it often still requires a stop light at the intersections plus stoplights at the end of the J-turns.
Today's Kokomo Tribune with the "push-back" from legislators: https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/local_news/legislators-planned-j-turns-concern-residents/article_040f99b6-5a74-11ea-bf25-6f88078f0337.html
Manning said he has received many phone calls and emails from area residents opposing the intersections, and he has relayed those concerns to INDOT.
He said he also has concerns about installing median U-turns on U.S. 31 because the state has never built one on the intersections of such a busy and heavily trafficked highway.
"I understand that INDOT has the data that show J-turns help with safety, and that's why they want them," he said. "However, I'm concerned because I have yet to see an example of a J-turn on a highway like U.S. 31 ... While it's not interstate level, it's still a very busy road with a lot of people driving quickly." - Rep Ethan Manning
none of these will have signals. the ones at 218 might though.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: hbelkins on March 04, 2020, 02:04:47 PM
Post by: hbelkins on March 04, 2020, 02:04:47 PM
Someone needs to pay those complainers to go to Maryland's Eastern Shore and take a look at US 301.
For that matter, Kentucky has been building a few of them, and is actually considering one for an urban area (US 25/421 in Richmond.)
For that matter, Kentucky has been building a few of them, and is actually considering one for an urban area (US 25/421 in Richmond.)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on March 04, 2020, 03:42:16 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on March 04, 2020, 03:42:16 PM
Wisconsin also uses J-Turn intersections on some high-capacity roadways. In any event, maybe the locals prefer a freeway conversion to installing J-Turns on US 31.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on March 14, 2020, 02:50:39 PM
Post by: monty on March 14, 2020, 02:50:39 PM
Noticed lots of survey stakes along US 31 in Tipton and Hamilton counties this week. Appear to be related to the dozen or so homes being torn down and removal of driveways to same and also farm field entrances (without buildings). Layout of the Bakers Corner interchange too.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on April 25, 2020, 06:25:19 PM
Post by: monty on April 25, 2020, 06:25:19 PM
INDOT is demolishing the houses they bought in Tipton County on the US 31 ROW. Some local meetings in Tipton have INDOT backtracking on an interchange at Division Road in favor of an overpass (only) or maybe even a "right in - and right out" controlled intersection. Siting cost - saving measures. I believe the right turn only move is an "offer" as an alternative to the J turns that the Coalition and most elected officials have stated their disapproval for numerous times now.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ibthebigd on April 25, 2020, 06:28:50 PM
Post by: ibthebigd on April 25, 2020, 06:28:50 PM
What about the Railroad tracks near there?
SM-G950U
SM-G950U
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on April 25, 2020, 06:35:32 PM
Post by: sparker on April 25, 2020, 06:35:32 PM
Quote from: monty on April 25, 2020, 06:25:19 PM
INDOT is demolishing the houses they bought in Tipton County on the US 31 ROW. Some local meetings in Tipton have INDOT backtracking on an interchange at Division Road in favor of an overpass (only) or maybe even a "right in - and right out" controlled intersection. Siting cost - saving measures. I believe the right turn only move is an "offer" as an alternative to the J turns that the Coalition and most elected officials have stated their disapproval for numerous times now.
From reading previous posts in this thread, I've been under the impression that US 31 was slated to be a full freeway from I-465 through Kokomo, with the suggested J-turns and RIRO's tentatively slated for Miami County between Kokomo and US 24. Is the activity cited above INDOT "backtracking" or otherwise economizing?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on April 25, 2020, 07:02:00 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on April 25, 2020, 07:02:00 PM
Quote from: sparker on April 25, 2020, 06:35:32 PMQuote from: monty on April 25, 2020, 06:25:19 PM
INDOT is demolishing the houses they bought in Tipton County on the US 31 ROW. Some local meetings in Tipton have INDOT backtracking on an interchange at Division Road in favor of an overpass (only) or maybe even a "right in - and right out" controlled intersection. Siting cost - saving measures. I believe the right turn only move is an "offer" as an alternative to the J turns that the Coalition and most elected officials have stated their disapproval for numerous times now.
From reading previous posts in this thread, I've been under the impression that US 31 was slated to be a full freeway from I-465 through Kokomo, with the suggested J-turns and RIRO's tentatively slated for Miami County between Kokomo and US 24. Is the activity cited above INDOT "backtracking" or otherwise economizing?
It's not slated to be full freeway. It's slated to be free flowing, with the removal of all stoplights and railroad crossings.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on April 25, 2020, 07:13:26 PM
Post by: monty on April 25, 2020, 07:13:26 PM
Quote from: ibthebigd on April 25, 2020, 06:28:50 PM
What about the Railroad tracks near there?
SM-G950U
Plans are still in place to bridge over the RR. Now delayed to 2022.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on May 01, 2020, 06:47:56 PM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on May 01, 2020, 06:47:56 PM
https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/local_news/state-pulls-funding-for-us-31-division-rd-interchange/article_bfd1a140-8afc-11ea-aadd-fb70d770daa1.html
INDOT has no money to put a new interchange on 31 at Division Road in Tipton County, but people are pushing INDOT to put one...
What are the other alternatives to an interchange at this location? Well, either a bridge or right-in, right-out configuration...
It also talks about what intersections are getting an overpass as well...
INDOT has no money to put a new interchange on 31 at Division Road in Tipton County, but people are pushing INDOT to put one...
What are the other alternatives to an interchange at this location? Well, either a bridge or right-in, right-out configuration...
It also talks about what intersections are getting an overpass as well...
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Terry Shea on May 01, 2020, 07:24:29 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on May 01, 2020, 07:24:29 PM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on May 01, 2020, 06:47:56 PM"Officials have asked the state to postpone the project until funding can be restored, Mullins said, but INDOT is set on U.S. 31 being a full, limited-access highway by 2025 and won't push back the timeline."
https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/local_news/state-pulls-funding-for-us-31-division-rd-interchange/article_bfd1a140-8afc-11ea-aadd-fb70d770daa1.html
INDOT has no money to put a new interchange on 31 at Division Road in Tipton County, but people are pushing INDOT to put one...
What are the other alternatives to an interchange at this location? Well, either a bridge or right-in, right-out configuration...
It also talks about what intersections are getting an overpass as well...
I take it they mean just for Tipton county, not the entire stretch from Indy to South Bend. That would seem way too ambitious to be completed by 2025.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on May 19, 2020, 07:50:51 PM
Post by: monty on May 19, 2020, 07:50:51 PM
INDOT plans for limited access upgrade on US 31 from SR 38 to SR 931. 23 miles. https://www.in.gov/indot/4051.htm
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on May 19, 2020, 08:43:30 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 19, 2020, 08:43:30 PM
Quote from: monty on May 19, 2020, 07:50:51 PMAre there any cost estimates?
INDOT plans for limited access upgrade on US 31 from SR 38 to SR 931. 23 miles. https://www.in.gov/indot/4051.htm
Certainly a major step forward in completing the South Bend to Indianapolis corridor.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on May 19, 2020, 09:31:10 PM
Post by: monty on May 19, 2020, 09:31:10 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 19, 2020, 08:43:30 PMGlad there is an announced plan / overall common strategy. Appears that the whole thing will be piecework until one day it's all done. I wonder, when will "that day" come?Quote from: monty on May 19, 2020, 07:50:51 PMAre there any cost estimates?
INDOT plans for limited access upgrade on US 31 from SR 38 to SR 931. 23 miles. https://www.in.gov/indot/4051.htm
Certainly a major step forward in completing the South Bend to Indianapolis corridor.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on May 19, 2020, 09:36:56 PM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on May 19, 2020, 09:36:56 PM
Quote from: monty on May 19, 2020, 09:31:10 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on May 19, 2020, 08:43:30 PMGlad there is an announced plan / overall common strategy. Appears that the whole thing will be piecework until one day it’s all done. I wonder, when will “that day” come?Quote from: monty on May 19, 2020, 07:50:51 PMAre there any cost estimates?
INDOT plans for limited access upgrade on US 31 from SR 38 to SR 931. 23 miles. https://www.in.gov/indot/4051.htm
Certainly a major step forward in completing the South Bend to Indianapolis corridor.
Are they planning on building an interchange at Division Road? I would like to see INDOT add another interchange in Tipton County instead of relying on the one interchange for the whole county.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on May 19, 2020, 09:42:44 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 19, 2020, 09:42:44 PM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on May 19, 2020, 09:36:56 PMUnfortunately, that is not the plan.Quote from: monty on May 19, 2020, 09:31:10 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on May 19, 2020, 08:43:30 PMGlad there is an announced plan / overall common strategy. Appears that the whole thing will be piecework until one day it's all done. I wonder, when will "that day" come?Quote from: monty on May 19, 2020, 07:50:51 PMAre there any cost estimates?
INDOT plans for limited access upgrade on US 31 from SR 38 to SR 931. 23 miles. https://www.in.gov/indot/4051.htm
Certainly a major step forward in completing the South Bend to Indianapolis corridor.
Are they planning on building an interchange at Division Road? I would like to see INDOT add another interchange in Tipton County instead of relying on the one interchange for the whole county.
QuoteIntersecting Roadway - Division Road
Intersection Treatment - Proposed Overpass or RI/RO
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on May 19, 2020, 10:09:05 PM
Post by: monty on May 19, 2020, 10:09:05 PM
I would suspect that Division Road can be an interchange if the county picks up a good portion of the tab. In my opinion, that would be consistent with the two Hamilton County interchanges to the south of SR 28.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 19, 2020, 11:59:50 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 19, 2020, 11:59:50 PM
Indiana should change their speed limit laws to allow these new stretches of US 31 freeway to be posted at 70 instead of 65.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on May 20, 2020, 12:21:34 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 20, 2020, 12:21:34 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 19, 2020, 11:59:50 PMAnd to allow the existing divided highways to be posted at 65 instead of 60.
Indiana should change their speed limit laws to allow these new stretches of US 31 freeway to be posted at 70 instead of 65.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: thefarmerchris on May 20, 2020, 08:11:24 AM
Post by: thefarmerchris on May 20, 2020, 08:11:24 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 20, 2020, 12:21:34 AMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on May 19, 2020, 11:59:50 PMAnd to allow the existing divided highways to be posted at 65 instead of 60.
Indiana should change their speed limit laws to allow these new stretches of US 31 freeway to be posted at 70 instead of 65.
INDOT would never go for it because that would make too much sense......
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on May 20, 2020, 08:36:22 AM
Post by: tdindy88 on May 20, 2020, 08:36:22 AM
Only on US 31 do you travel from the grade-separated freeway with limited access to an expressway with driveways and the speed limit goes UP!
If they ever did it right, it could be 70 from the Kokomo Bypass south to SR 38, 65 from SR 38 to 146th Street, 60 from 146th to 116th Streets and 55 south from there to I-465.
If they ever did it right, it could be 70 from the Kokomo Bypass south to SR 38, 65 from SR 38 to 146th Street, 60 from 146th to 116th Streets and 55 south from there to I-465.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on May 20, 2020, 08:38:55 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 20, 2020, 08:38:55 AM
Quote from: tdindy88 on May 20, 2020, 08:36:22 AMIf it was right, there would be no 55 mph zone to begin with. 60 mph closer to I-465, 65 mph as you get further out, 70 mph once rural.
Only on US 31 do you travel from the grade-separated freeway with limited access to an expressway with driveways and the speed limit goes UP!
If they ever did it right, it could be 70 from the Kokomo Bypass south to SR 38, 65 from SR 38 to 146th Street, 60 from 146th to 116th Streets and 55 south from there to I-465.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ysuindy on June 01, 2020, 07:43:31 AM
Post by: ysuindy on June 01, 2020, 07:43:31 AM
Drove from Fishers to Kokomo on Sunday. Noticed traffic signals being installed on Indiana 38 at the ramps to and from 31.
My first trip that way in six months. Looked like perhaps a few more empty homes along 31 in Tipton County.
My first trip that way in six months. Looked like perhaps a few more empty homes along 31 in Tipton County.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: triplemultiplex on June 05, 2020, 09:30:49 PM
Post by: triplemultiplex on June 05, 2020, 09:30:49 PM
Lower speed limit increases public pressure to upgrade the facility to freeway? ;)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on June 09, 2020, 10:42:22 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on June 09, 2020, 10:42:22 AM
J-Turns are going to be placed in Miami County at CR's 400 and 500 South at US 31.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: SSR_317 on June 13, 2020, 07:29:12 PM
Post by: SSR_317 on June 13, 2020, 07:29:12 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 09, 2020, 10:42:22 AMBOO!
J-Turns are going to be placed in Miami County at CR's 400 and 500 South at US 31.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: dvferyance on June 14, 2020, 07:23:13 PM
Post by: dvferyance on June 14, 2020, 07:23:13 PM
Quote from: SSR_317 on June 13, 2020, 07:29:12 PMI am with you there. I don't see how they are any safer if safety is an issue it would make far more sense to build an overpass if not worth the expense than culd du sac it.Quote from: silverback1065 on June 09, 2020, 10:42:22 AMBOO!
J-Turns are going to be placed in Miami County at CR's 400 and 500 South at US 31.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on June 18, 2020, 07:43:34 PM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on June 18, 2020, 07:43:34 PM
(https://www.in.gov/indot/files/US%2031%20and%20236th%20Fact%20Sheet.jpg)
Here is the preferred alternative to replace the stoplight at 236th Street, which is a roundabout interchange.
https://www.in.gov/indot/files/US%2031%20over%20Norfolk%20Southern%20Project%20Limits.pdf
Also, the bridge over the railroad track near Tipton will be a single bridge with a concrete wall dividing the opposing travel lanes.
Here is the preferred alternative to replace the stoplight at 236th Street, which is a roundabout interchange.
https://www.in.gov/indot/files/US%2031%20over%20Norfolk%20Southern%20Project%20Limits.pdf
Also, the bridge over the railroad track near Tipton will be a single bridge with a concrete wall dividing the opposing travel lanes.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on June 18, 2020, 09:29:43 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on June 18, 2020, 09:29:43 PM
https://www.in.gov/indot/4051.htm
future plans for the corridor in tipton and hamilton co
future plans for the corridor in tipton and hamilton co
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on June 18, 2020, 09:39:16 PM
Post by: sparker on June 18, 2020, 09:39:16 PM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 18, 2020, 07:43:34 PM
(https://www.in.gov/indot/files/US%2031%20and%20236th%20Fact%20Sheet.jpg)
Here is the preferred alternative to replace the stoplight at 236th Street, which is a roundabout interchange.
https://www.in.gov/indot/files/US%2031%20over%20Norfolk%20Southern%20Project%20Limits.pdf
Also, the bridge over the railroad track near Tipton will be a single bridge with a concrete wall dividing the opposing travel lanes.
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 18, 2020, 09:29:43 PM
https://www.in.gov/indot/4051.htm
future plans for the corridor in tipton and hamilton co
So it looks like the J-turns will be confined to north of Kokomo, with the portion between IN 38 and the Kokomo bypass elevated to limited access, but with one possible RIRO. That seems to be a design change from just a couple of months ago, when J-turns were proposed for that stretch as well.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on June 18, 2020, 09:57:35 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on June 18, 2020, 09:57:35 PM
Quote from: sparker on June 18, 2020, 09:39:16 PMQuote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 18, 2020, 07:43:34 PM
(https://www.in.gov/indot/files/US%2031%20and%20236th%20Fact%20Sheet.jpg)
Here is the preferred alternative to replace the stoplight at 236th Street, which is a roundabout interchange.
https://www.in.gov/indot/files/US%2031%20over%20Norfolk%20Southern%20Project%20Limits.pdf
Also, the bridge over the railroad track near Tipton will be a single bridge with a concrete wall dividing the opposing travel lanes.Quote from: silverback1065 on June 18, 2020, 09:29:43 PM
https://www.in.gov/indot/4051.htm
future plans for the corridor in tipton and hamilton co
So it looks like the J-turns will be confined to north of Kokomo, with the portion between IN 38 and the Kokomo bypass elevated to limited access, but with one possible RIRO. That seems to be a design change from just a couple of months ago, when J-turns were proposed for that stretch as well.
The one RIRO is at Division Road in tipton, they're pissed that it's not a full interchange. I agree, it should be an interchange, they need at least 2 for the whole county and that's the perfect second one. it's money why they didn't get it.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: theline on June 19, 2020, 04:17:40 AM
Post by: theline on June 19, 2020, 04:17:40 AM
^^
There are a lot of private drives all along 31 between 38 and 931. Plans show that access for some near the interchanges and near the railroad overpass will be eliminated, but many others are not accounted for by the current INDOT plans. I'm assuming that they will continue to have RIRO access to 31 for the foreseeable future. So Division Road won't be the only RIRO.
There are a lot of private drives all along 31 between 38 and 931. Plans show that access for some near the interchanges and near the railroad overpass will be eliminated, but many others are not accounted for by the current INDOT plans. I'm assuming that they will continue to have RIRO access to 31 for the foreseeable future. So Division Road won't be the only RIRO.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on June 19, 2020, 10:44:34 PM
Post by: monty on June 19, 2020, 10:44:34 PM
Quote from: theline on June 19, 2020, 04:17:40 AMINDOT has acquired numerous properties in Tipton County along the ROW and have been tearing the houses down. A dozen or more. Division Road is a battle ground issue. I'm thinking that there will be an overpass installed there with the county getting an option to pay for the balance of a full interchange. RIRO doesn't solve the issues of the local traffic that road carries. I agree that the J turns have been pushed further north. INDOT really seems set on getting the Tipton and Hamilton County segments up close to interstate standards sooner rather than later now with the formal release of their plans to remove every road grade crossing.
^^
There are a lot of private drives all along 31 between 38 and 931. Plans show that access for some near the interchanges and near the railroad overpass will be eliminated, but many others are not accounted for by the current INDOT plans. I'm assuming that they will continue to have RIRO access to 31 for the foreseeable future. So Division Road won't be the only RIRO.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: theline on June 20, 2020, 02:00:25 AM
Post by: theline on June 20, 2020, 02:00:25 AM
Quote from: monty on June 19, 2020, 10:44:34 PM:bigass: Here's hoping you're right. It would be great to see a freeway with a 65 MPH limit all the way from 38 to 35 North.Quote from: theline on June 19, 2020, 04:17:40 AMINDOT has acquired numerous properties in Tipton County along the ROW and have been tearing the houses down. A dozen or more. Division Road is a battle ground issue. I'm thinking that there will be an overpass installed there with the county getting an option to pay for the balance of a full interchange. RIRO doesn't solve the issues of the local traffic that road carries. I agree that the J turns have been pushed further north. INDOT really seems set on getting the Tipton and Hamilton County segments up close to interstate standards sooner rather than later now with the formal release of their plans to remove every road grade crossing.
^^
There are a lot of private drives all along 31 between 38 and 931. Plans show that access for some near the interchanges and near the railroad overpass will be eliminated, but many others are not accounted for by the current INDOT plans. I'm assuming that they will continue to have RIRO access to 31 for the foreseeable future. So Division Road won't be the only RIRO.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on June 20, 2020, 02:25:29 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 20, 2020, 02:25:29 AM
Quote from: theline on June 20, 2020, 02:00:25 AMIMO, should be posted 65 mph presently, and 70 mph with a freeway.Quote from: monty on June 19, 2020, 10:44:34 PM:bigass: Here's hoping you're right. It would be great to see a freeway with a 65 MPH limit all the way from 38 to 35 North.Quote from: theline on June 19, 2020, 04:17:40 AMINDOT has acquired numerous properties in Tipton County along the ROW and have been tearing the houses down. A dozen or more. Division Road is a battle ground issue. I'm thinking that there will be an overpass installed there with the county getting an option to pay for the balance of a full interchange. RIRO doesn't solve the issues of the local traffic that road carries. I agree that the J turns have been pushed further north. INDOT really seems set on getting the Tipton and Hamilton County segments up close to interstate standards sooner rather than later now with the formal release of their plans to remove every road grade crossing.
^^
There are a lot of private drives all along 31 between 38 and 931. Plans show that access for some near the interchanges and near the railroad overpass will be eliminated, but many others are not accounted for by the current INDOT plans. I'm assuming that they will continue to have RIRO access to 31 for the foreseeable future. So Division Road won't be the only RIRO.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on June 20, 2020, 04:00:43 PM
Post by: sparker on June 20, 2020, 04:00:43 PM
Quote from: theline on June 20, 2020, 02:00:25 AMQuote from: monty on June 19, 2020, 10:44:34 PM:bigass: Here's hoping you're right. It would be great to see a freeway with a 65 MPH limit all the way from 38 to 35 North.Quote from: theline on June 19, 2020, 04:17:40 AMINDOT has acquired numerous properties in Tipton County along the ROW and have been tearing the houses down. A dozen or more. Division Road is a battle ground issue. I'm thinking that there will be an overpass installed there with the county getting an option to pay for the balance of a full interchange. RIRO doesn't solve the issues of the local traffic that road carries. I agree that the J turns have been pushed further north. INDOT really seems set on getting the Tipton and Hamilton County segments up close to interstate standards sooner rather than later now with the formal release of their plans to remove every road grade crossing.
^^
There are a lot of private drives all along 31 between 38 and 931. Plans show that access for some near the interchanges and near the railroad overpass will be eliminated, but many others are not accounted for by the current INDOT plans. I'm assuming that they will continue to have RIRO access to 31 for the foreseeable future. So Division Road won't be the only RIRO.
IN-based posters may want to elaborate (or correct) on this, but it has seemed like INDOT vascillates quite a bit in regards to US 31. Not terribly long ago they announced that their goal was an Interstate-grade freeway all the way from Indy to the MI state line. Then it was backed off to spot upgrades; then a change of goals to simply "free-flowing" (hence the J-turn approach) in all areas between IN 38 and US 30 except for the Kokomo bypass, in process at the time. It's pretty obvious that money is a constant/recurring issue; the US 31 approach may fluctuate with periodic fund identification -- right now, it seems there's just enough in the "kitty" to do something approaching a full freeway north as far as Kokomo (the ROW acquisition underscores this) -- but that's as far as they'll take a comprehensive rebuild; there's just too much in the way of obstacles -- private access, intersections, Grissom, etc. -- to tackle the segment between Kokomo and the Wabash River -- so one of the cheapest, albeit questionable, alternatives to improve the safety aspect of the corridor -- the aforementioned J-turn approach to address cross-traffic -- is still planned for implementation.
In retrospect, INDOT is approaching US 31 according to the old adage about eating an elephant -- one piece at a time. Setting Kokomo as a near-term goal for full freeway development seems reasonable; it's the largest city along the corridor, and the freeway bypass is already complete. The next section to receive this treatment will likely be between US 24 and US 30; while some private access remains, most of it is upgradeable expressway with the various communities along the way previously bypassed. But north of Kokomo is the most "cluttered" section of the bunch; essentially the original twinned US 31 with roadside access (and amenities) common to divided rural arterials (and yeah, it reminds me of US/CA 99 before that route's incremental freeway upgrades). I have little doubt that the "full Interstate-grade" criterion is still the long-term goal for US 31 -- but with other massive state projects still in process (e.g. I-69 and IN's share of the Ohio River bridge), Indy-Kokomo is pretty much going to be it until much if not all of the other projects are let. In a state often known for its penny-pinching, the US 31 approach, except for that very visible section just north of I-465, could fairly be described as a "stealth" project -- get the first section done quietly but publicize it when done and reap the accolades stemming from another two areas connected by freeway -- and wait a while and go from there.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on June 20, 2020, 09:29:38 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on June 20, 2020, 09:29:38 PM
The state consistently said that full freeway is a long term goal. There has never really been a target date for that, nor an indication that it wouldn't be done piecemeal.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on June 20, 2020, 10:47:07 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on June 20, 2020, 10:47:07 PM
I've heard a few "green tee" intersections will be put in on it soon, i think at the 2 218 intersections.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on June 21, 2020, 12:07:30 AM
Post by: tdindy88 on June 21, 2020, 12:07:30 AM
Will those still be stoplights, if the green tee intersection is what I think it is?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on June 22, 2020, 06:50:10 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on June 22, 2020, 06:50:10 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on June 21, 2020, 12:07:30 AM
Will those still be stoplights, if the green tee intersection is what I think it is?
i think so, i'm not sure what they are really.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on June 22, 2020, 06:54:36 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 22, 2020, 06:54:36 PM
A Continuous Green T intersection design at a 3-way intersection allows one direction of traffic to keep moving without hitting a traffic signal.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Tp9cXTApg1o/maxresdefault.jpg)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Tp9cXTApg1o/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: theline on June 23, 2020, 02:16:53 AM
Post by: theline on June 23, 2020, 02:16:53 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 20, 2020, 10:47:07 PMI don't know why a green tee would be put in at the southern 218 intersection. There is no traffic light there now--just a yellow flasher.
I've heard a few "green tee" intersections will be put in on it soon, i think at the 2 218 intersections.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on June 23, 2020, 02:23:42 AM
Post by: sparker on June 23, 2020, 02:23:42 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 20, 2020, 10:47:07 PM
I've heard a few "green tee" intersections will be put in on it soon, i think at the 2 218 intersections.
That seems at least as good a design as the J-turn concept, although the notion of free-flowing is pretty much out the window if a "green-T" is deployed. But it certainly does make sense if an intersecting route (in this case IN 218) "jogs" along the main route in question; assuming there's going to be through/recurring traffic on that intersecting route, a J-turn might not be able to safely accommodate those movements -- backups in traffic lanes would pose a potential problem. This seems like a decent interim solution until full interchanges can be fiscally addressed (there's been an "ancient" version of this in L.A. on the Baldwin Hills La Cienega expressway at the Stocker intersection for decades).
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Terry Shea on June 23, 2020, 08:46:16 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on June 23, 2020, 08:46:16 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 22, 2020, 06:54:36 PMIt looks to me like that would be throwing a significant amount of money at a so called solution that does absolutely nothing!
A Continuous Green T intersection design at a 3-way intersection allows one direction of traffic to keep moving without hitting a traffic signal.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Tp9cXTApg1o/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: MrManlet on June 23, 2020, 10:52:55 PM
Post by: MrManlet on June 23, 2020, 10:52:55 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 23, 2020, 08:46:16 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on June 22, 2020, 06:54:36 PMIt looks to me like that would be throwing a significant amount of money at a so called solution that does absolutely nothing!
A Continuous Green T intersection design at a 3-way intersection allows one direction of traffic to keep moving without hitting a traffic signal.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Tp9cXTApg1o/maxresdefault.jpg)
I agree that this would probably be a waste because I don't think the VPD counts would justify it. The northern 218 intersection is a traffic signal while the southern intersection is served by just flashers. Looking at the Google maps of the northern intersection, it looks like at most 5 cars queue up at the light from EB 218 onto 31. If anything, they should just put turn lanes for the light.
A side note, the left turn lane from SB 31 at the same intersection really should be a U-turn lane as it just goes to an abandoned house.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6776542,-86.129297,439m/data=!3m1!1e3
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on June 24, 2020, 09:38:56 PM
Post by: monty on June 24, 2020, 09:38:56 PM
Most of the accidents at the north 218 stoplight happen as rear-ends on SB US 31 traffic stacks up on the red light. This Green T won't likely improve that scenario. There is a bridge on 31 just on to the north that also makes improvements to the intersection challenging.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: MrManlet on June 24, 2020, 11:02:18 PM
Post by: MrManlet on June 24, 2020, 11:02:18 PM
Quote from: monty on June 24, 2020, 09:38:56 PMMaybe they should downgrade the intersection to flashers like the south 218 intersection. Then again there is the Air Force base right there.
Most of the accidents at the north 218 stoplight happen as rear-ends on SB US 31 traffic stacks up on the red light. This Green T won't likely improve that scenario. There is a bridge on 31 just on to the north that also makes improvements to the intersection challenging.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on July 14, 2020, 07:46:56 PM
Post by: monty on July 14, 2020, 07:46:56 PM
Miami County fights back against J turns: https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/miami-co-takes-last-stand-against-j-turns-on-us-31/article_93986430-c2db-11ea-9585-8f6463509045.html
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on July 14, 2020, 08:40:04 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on July 14, 2020, 08:40:04 PM
Quote from: monty on July 14, 2020, 07:46:56 PM
Miami County fights back against J turns: https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/miami-co-takes-last-stand-against-j-turns-on-us-31/article_93986430-c2db-11ea-9585-8f6463509045.html
I support this, make it a freeway already!
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 14, 2020, 09:25:34 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 14, 2020, 09:25:34 PM
I'm not well-versed on the costs of different types of projects so maybe this doesn't save money, but here's an idea:
Reroute 218W from a point 1.2 miles west of US 31, WSW along the path of the utility line, then jogging more SW between the golf course and the air museum to connect to Hoosier Blvd.
Reroute 218E from a point 0.3 miles east of US 31, N and then NW to connect to US 31 at the same point.
Have a single interchange that covers both directions of 218 and the former air base. Turn both current alignments of 218 into cul-de-sacs.
It's a little over a mile of new terrain road, but no residential properties would need to be acquired.
Reroute 218W from a point 1.2 miles west of US 31, WSW along the path of the utility line, then jogging more SW between the golf course and the air museum to connect to Hoosier Blvd.
Reroute 218E from a point 0.3 miles east of US 31, N and then NW to connect to US 31 at the same point.
Have a single interchange that covers both directions of 218 and the former air base. Turn both current alignments of 218 into cul-de-sacs.
It's a little over a mile of new terrain road, but no residential properties would need to be acquired.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 12:29:37 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 12:29:37 PM
That article makes a lot of unproven claims a lot of people against it are saying "these don't work here because of the speeds" do they understand that is literally one of the first things considered when something like this is proposed? they're saying that because it sounds plausible. what they should just say is "i don't want them because i prefer an interchange like you originally proposed" safety is indot's top priority and there's 0 chance this wasn't considered when they proposed j-turns.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:06:43 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:06:43 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 12:29:37 PMIf the purpose is to eliminate traffic signals then I don't understand what good J-turns are going to do. Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what a J-turn is, but it appears to be similar to a Michigan left. We have them all over this area and they certainly do not eliminate the need for traffic signals-in fact it requires 3 signals at almost every intersection now instead of 1.
That article makes a lot of unproven claims a lot of people against it are saying "these don't work here because of the speeds" do they understand that is literally one of the first things considered when something like this is proposed? they're saying that because it sounds plausible. what they should just say is "i don't want them because i prefer an interchange like you originally proposed" safety is indot's top priority and there's 0 chance this wasn't considered when they proposed j-turns.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:08:04 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:08:04 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:06:43 PMThese aren't like Michigan lefts, these have no signals at all.Quote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 12:29:37 PMIf the purpose is to eliminate traffic signals then I don't understand what good J-turns are going to do. Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what a J-turn is, but it appears to be similar to a Michigan left. We have them all over this area and they certainly do not eliminate the need for traffic signals-in fact it requires 3 signals at almost every intersection now instead of 1.
That article makes a lot of unproven claims a lot of people against it are saying "these don't work here because of the speeds" do they understand that is literally one of the first things considered when something like this is proposed? they're saying that because it sounds plausible. what they should just say is "i don't want them because i prefer an interchange like you originally proposed" safety is indot's top priority and there's 0 chance this wasn't considered when they proposed j-turns.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:13:20 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:13:20 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:08:04 PMSo what's the difference other than no signal?Quote from: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:06:43 PMThese aren't like Michigan lefts, these have no signals at all.Quote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 12:29:37 PMIf the purpose is to eliminate traffic signals then I don't understand what good J-turns are going to do. Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what a J-turn is, but it appears to be similar to a Michigan left. We have them all over this area and they certainly do not eliminate the need for traffic signals-in fact it requires 3 signals at almost every intersection now instead of 1.
That article makes a lot of unproven claims a lot of people against it are saying "these don't work here because of the speeds" do they understand that is literally one of the first things considered when something like this is proposed? they're saying that because it sounds plausible. what they should just say is "i don't want them because i prefer an interchange like you originally proposed" safety is indot's top priority and there's 0 chance this wasn't considered when they proposed j-turns.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:20:23 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:20:23 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:13:20 PMQuote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:08:04 PMSo what's the difference other than no signal?Quote from: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:06:43 PMThese aren't like Michigan lefts, these have no signals at all.Quote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 12:29:37 PMIf the purpose is to eliminate traffic signals then I don't understand what good J-turns are going to do. Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what a J-turn is, but it appears to be similar to a Michigan left. We have them all over this area and they certainly do not eliminate the need for traffic signals-in fact it requires 3 signals at almost every intersection now instead of 1.
That article makes a lot of unproven claims a lot of people against it are saying "these don't work here because of the speeds" do they understand that is literally one of the first things considered when something like this is proposed? they're saying that because it sounds plausible. what they should just say is "i don't want them because i prefer an interchange like you originally proposed" safety is indot's top priority and there's 0 chance this wasn't considered when they proposed j-turns.
i think that's the only one, other than the cross street isn't allowed to go straight through. here is on in morocco indiana https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9407834,-87.4351341,3a,75y,302.45h,88.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjHu8rv26jw0yY4p7B2RgCQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
they occasionally have flashers.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ibthebigd on July 15, 2020, 04:22:04 PM
Post by: ibthebigd on July 15, 2020, 04:22:04 PM
The US 231 from I-64 to the Ohio river seams to flow well hopefully US 31 will flow that well
SM-G950U
SM-G950U
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:44:30 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:44:30 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:20:23 PMWell that's why I'm asking how this will work without signals. You're going to have traffic stopping or slowing down to a crawl before pulling out into traffic going 60-70 mph or more. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.Quote from: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:13:20 PMQuote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:08:04 PMSo what's the difference other than no signal?Quote from: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:06:43 PMThese aren't like Michigan lefts, these have no signals at all.Quote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 12:29:37 PMIf the purpose is to eliminate traffic signals then I don't understand what good J-turns are going to do. Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what a J-turn is, but it appears to be similar to a Michigan left. We have them all over this area and they certainly do not eliminate the need for traffic signals-in fact it requires 3 signals at almost every intersection now instead of 1.
That article makes a lot of unproven claims a lot of people against it are saying "these don't work here because of the speeds" do they understand that is literally one of the first things considered when something like this is proposed? they're saying that because it sounds plausible. what they should just say is "i don't want them because i prefer an interchange like you originally proposed" safety is indot's top priority and there's 0 chance this wasn't considered when they proposed j-turns.
i think that's the only one, other than the cross street isn't allowed to go straight through. here is on in morocco indiana https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9407834,-87.4351341,3a,75y,302.45h,88.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjHu8rv26jw0yY4p7B2RgCQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
they occasionally have flashers.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:47:11 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:47:11 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:44:30 PMNo the cross streets won't be going that fast. They will make a right turn and immediately merge into the uturn lane. They don't have to drive in the mainline. these are only installed on very low volume roads (referring to the cross street)Quote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:20:23 PMWell that's why I'm asking how this will work without signals. You're going to have traffic stopping or slowing down to a crawl before pulling out into traffic going 60-70 mph or more. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.Quote from: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:13:20 PMQuote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:08:04 PMSo what's the difference other than no signal?Quote from: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:06:43 PMThese aren't like Michigan lefts, these have no signals at all.Quote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 12:29:37 PMIf the purpose is to eliminate traffic signals then I don't understand what good J-turns are going to do. Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what a J-turn is, but it appears to be similar to a Michigan left. We have them all over this area and they certainly do not eliminate the need for traffic signals-in fact it requires 3 signals at almost every intersection now instead of 1.
That article makes a lot of unproven claims a lot of people against it are saying "these don't work here because of the speeds" do they understand that is literally one of the first things considered when something like this is proposed? they're saying that because it sounds plausible. what they should just say is "i don't want them because i prefer an interchange like you originally proposed" safety is indot's top priority and there's 0 chance this wasn't considered when they proposed j-turns.
i think that's the only one, other than the cross street isn't allowed to go straight through. here is on in morocco indiana https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9407834,-87.4351341,3a,75y,302.45h,88.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjHu8rv26jw0yY4p7B2RgCQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
they occasionally have flashers.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:53:20 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:53:20 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:47:11 PMThey're going to have to make a right turn, immediately cross 2 lanes of traffic to get to the j, stop or slow to a crawl, and then pull out into speeding traffic. I think an obstacle course with land mines would be better than this.Quote from: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:44:30 PMNo the cross streets won't be going that fast. They will make a right turn and immediately merge into the uturn lane. They don't have to drive in the mainlineQuote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:20:23 PMWell that's why I'm asking how this will work without signals. You're going to have traffic stopping or slowing down to a crawl before pulling out into traffic going 60-70 mph or more. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.Quote from: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:13:20 PMQuote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:08:04 PMSo what's the difference other than no signal?Quote from: Terry Shea on July 15, 2020, 04:06:43 PMThese aren't like Michigan lefts, these have no signals at all.Quote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 12:29:37 PMIf the purpose is to eliminate traffic signals then I don't understand what good J-turns are going to do. Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what a J-turn is, but it appears to be similar to a Michigan left. We have them all over this area and they certainly do not eliminate the need for traffic signals-in fact it requires 3 signals at almost every intersection now instead of 1.
That article makes a lot of unproven claims a lot of people against it are saying "these don't work here because of the speeds" do they understand that is literally one of the first things considered when something like this is proposed? they're saying that because it sounds plausible. what they should just say is "i don't want them because i prefer an interchange like you originally proposed" safety is indot's top priority and there's 0 chance this wasn't considered when they proposed j-turns.
i think that's the only one, other than the cross street isn't allowed to go straight through. here is on in morocco indiana https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9407834,-87.4351341,3a,75y,302.45h,88.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjHu8rv26jw0yY4p7B2RgCQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
they occasionally have flashers.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:55:08 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:55:08 PM
Not really you need to drive one, they're not that bad. These have the same hate as roundabouts and eventually people got used to them. This is better than trying to cross traditionally. No right angle collisions.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on July 15, 2020, 05:28:00 PM
Post by: sparker on July 15, 2020, 05:28:00 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:55:08 PM
Not really you need to drive one, they're not that bad. These have the same hate as roundabouts and eventually people got used to them. This is better than trying to cross traditionally. No right angle collisions.
Having encountered "Jersey turns" early in my travels ('80's) and finding them a real PITA (US 22 in the Dunellen area especially noxious), particularly with bunched traffic, I'm just wondering what, except to claim traffic-signal elimination while saving bucks at the same time, is the attraction here? Since INDOT has long professed that they have always wanted to deploy a full freeway from Indy to South Bend, why not simply do what DOT's have historically done in fiscally tight times and do full-freeway segments a little bit at a time until the whole thing has been upgraded? What is the "audience" INDOT is trying to placate by eliminating actual signals and installing intersection convolutions as, obviously, an interim measure? Since it's the locals who are raising hell about this, certainly not them! It seems that the agency is attempting to show, within their monetary limitations, that they are "doing something" about the problem -- but in doing so, may be making matters worse just to say they've dealt with/eliminated one single parameter (full-stop signals). It seems everyone involved would be better served by INDOT's simply maintaining the status quo until such time as a finalized freeway project in the affected area can be afforded -- i.e., save their money until there's enough to do it right!
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 05:30:21 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 05:30:21 PM
Quote from: sparker on July 15, 2020, 05:28:00 PMI agree, the jturns here are stupid. Give us a full freeway!Quote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:55:08 PM
Not really you need to drive one, they're not that bad. These have the same hate as roundabouts and eventually people got used to them. This is better than trying to cross traditionally. No right angle collisions.
Having encountered "Jersey turns" early in my travels ('80's) and finding them a real PITA (US 22 in the Dunellen area especially noxious), particularly with bunched traffic, I'm just wondering what, except to claim traffic-signal elimination while saving bucks at the same time, is the attraction here? Since INDOT has long professed that they have always wanted to deploy a full freeway from Indy to South Bend, why not simply do what DOT's have historically done in fiscally tight times and do full-freeway segments a little bit at a time until the whole thing has been upgraded? What is the "audience" INDOT is trying to placate by eliminating actual signals and installing intersection convolutions as, obviously, an interim measure? Since it's the locals who are raising hell about this, certainly not them! It seems that the agency is attempting to show, within their monetary limitations, that they are "doing something" about the problem -- but in doing so, may be making matters worse just to say they've dealt with/eliminated one single parameter (full-stop signals). It seems everyone involved would be better served by INDOT's simply maintaining the status quo until such time as a finalized freeway project in the affected area can be afforded -- i.e., save their money until there's enough to do it right!
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Life in Paradise on July 16, 2020, 12:52:31 PM
Post by: Life in Paradise on July 16, 2020, 12:52:31 PM
Quote from: sparker on July 15, 2020, 05:28:00 PMINDOT simply needs to study US67 history running NW of Little Rock, ARQuote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:55:08 PM
Not really you need to drive one, they're not that bad. These have the same hate as roundabouts and eventually people got used to them. This is better than trying to cross traditionally. No right angle collisions.
Having encountered "Jersey turns" early in my travels ('80's) and finding them a real PITA (US 22 in the Dunellen area especially noxious), particularly with bunched traffic, I'm just wondering what, except to claim traffic-signal elimination while saving bucks at the same time, is the attraction here? Since INDOT has long professed that they have always wanted to deploy a full freeway from Indy to South Bend, why not simply do what DOT's have historically done in fiscally tight times and do full-freeway segments a little bit at a time until the whole thing has been upgraded? What is the "audience" INDOT is trying to placate by eliminating actual signals and installing intersection convolutions as, obviously, an interim measure? Since it's the locals who are raising hell about this, certainly not them! It seems that the agency is attempting to show, within their monetary limitations, that they are "doing something" about the problem -- but in doing so, may be making matters worse just to say they've dealt with/eliminated one single parameter (full-stop signals). It seems everyone involved would be better served by INDOT's simply maintaining the status quo until such time as a finalized freeway project in the affected area can be afforded -- i.e., save their money until there's enough to do it right!
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on July 16, 2020, 04:55:49 PM
Post by: sparker on July 16, 2020, 04:55:49 PM
Quote from: Life in Paradise on July 16, 2020, 12:52:31 PMQuote from: sparker on July 15, 2020, 05:28:00 PMINDOT simply needs to study US67 history running NW of Little Rock, ARQuote from: silverback1065 on July 15, 2020, 04:55:08 PM
Not really you need to drive one, they're not that bad. These have the same hate as roundabouts and eventually people got used to them. This is better than trying to cross traditionally. No right angle collisions.
Having encountered "Jersey turns" early in my travels ('80's) and finding them a real PITA (US 22 in the Dunellen area especially noxious), particularly with bunched traffic, I'm just wondering what, except to claim traffic-signal elimination while saving bucks at the same time, is the attraction here? Since INDOT has long professed that they have always wanted to deploy a full freeway from Indy to South Bend, why not simply do what DOT's have historically done in fiscally tight times and do full-freeway segments a little bit at a time until the whole thing has been upgraded? What is the "audience" INDOT is trying to placate by eliminating actual signals and installing intersection convolutions as, obviously, an interim measure? Since it's the locals who are raising hell about this, certainly not them! It seems that the agency is attempting to show, within their monetary limitations, that they are "doing something" about the problem -- but in doing so, may be making matters worse just to say they've dealt with/eliminated one single parameter (full-stop signals). It seems everyone involved would be better served by INDOT's simply maintaining the status quo until such time as a finalized freeway project in the affected area can be afforded -- i.e., save their money until there's enough to do it right!
Or, equally to the point the history of US/CA 99 in the San Joaquin Valley. From the first freeway miles circa 1952-53 to the full completion of the south Merced County segment in 2017, it took 60+ years to get the job done (at least, technically, as a full freeway), and it will likely take another 20-25 to bring it up to Interstate standards as per Caltrans' "master plan" for the route. With the progress north of Indy, Plymouth-South Bend, and the Kokomo bypass INDOT has, percentage-wise, accomplished more in that regard in the past 10 years than CA's DOH was able to do in the same amount of time (and the corridor is less than half the length of the CA one). There were grade crossings on the southern half of 99 and property incursions between Fresno and Modesto until the '80's; it took time, but all that was eventually addressed -- even with the agency's roadbuilding function effectively truncated or furloughed from '75 to '83. But the CA corridor serves as an indicator of what can be done with an incremental approach -- and with a notable lack of "band-aid" interim measures -- it went directly from a 2-lane rural arterial to expressway and/or freeway, eventually fully evolving into the latter.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: PurdueBill on July 20, 2020, 06:11:54 PM
Post by: PurdueBill on July 20, 2020, 06:11:54 PM
INDOT has a J-turn thing lately. They redid US 30/SR 101 as one, and the intersection just west of US 421/SR 18 on SR 25 near Delphi was redone as one as well. Both roads posted for 60 with traffic that moves at least that fast (which probably should have a posted limit of 65; in Ohio the limit may possibly be posted 70 but probably would be 65). Wonder why the fascination with the J-turns lately?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on July 20, 2020, 07:40:50 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on July 20, 2020, 07:40:50 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on July 20, 2020, 06:11:54 PMUS-30 is posted at 70 mph in Ohio beginning at the Indiana state line. It suddenly drops to 60 mph due to different laws.
INDOT has a J-turn thing lately. They redid US 30/SR 101 as one, and the intersection just west of US 421/SR 18 on SR 25 near Delphi was redone as one as well. Both roads posted for 60 with traffic that moves at least that fast (which probably should have a posted limit of 65; in Ohio the limit may possibly be posted 70 but probably would be 65). Wonder why the fascination with the J-turns lately?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on July 20, 2020, 08:16:58 PM
Post by: sparker on July 20, 2020, 08:16:58 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on July 20, 2020, 06:11:54 PM
INDOT has a J-turn thing lately. They redid US 30/SR 101 as one, and the intersection just west of US 421/SR 18 on SR 25 near Delphi was redone as one as well. Both roads posted for 60 with traffic that moves at least that fast (which probably should have a posted limit of 65; in Ohio the limit may possibly be posted 70 but probably would be 65). Wonder why the fascination with the J-turns lately?
Fascination with specific methodology (J-turns, roundabouts, etc.) seems to be a recurring institutional response to demands (political, publicly stated, or even simply perceived) to "do something" about a situation when funds to effect a response are limited. Call it "cheaping out" or "band-aid" if you will, it's pretty endemic and certainly not limited to one state's transporation agency. In this particular case, the push for J-turns seems to be internally driven -- apparently there's an agency directive and/or governing policy to make US 31 "free flowing" -- i.e. eliminating signals, but without the available funding to effect the full freeway that's long been an agency as well a publicly stated state goal. So the "band-aids" are continuously being applied -- or the plans to do so are run up the flagpole. At this point it appears that between Indy and Kokomo there was enough blowback to forestall the J-turn concept; property acquisition of the type preceding freeway development is underway. But between Kokomo and the Wabash River the task at hand appears to be something more daunting -- much more private access and side roads with which to deal -- so to satisfy the internal "free-flowing" signal-free goal, less costly measures such as J-turns continue to be formally planned. Thus when installed and in operation, the agency can claim that their basic goals were met -- regardless of the efficacy of the facility. But I'll reiterate what I said earlier here -- where is the pressure to deploy these half-measures coming from? -- especially since the objections seem to be emanating from the affected area! If internal within INDOT, then any blame for consequences can be directed there; if there's some external pressure, that needs to be identified to determine the motivation. Either way, it seems pointless to expend scarce funds to technically shift metrics rather than simply stage real improvements (one interchange at a time if necessary) until the job is finished.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on July 20, 2020, 09:28:59 PM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on July 20, 2020, 09:28:59 PM
Here is the project page for the Miami County section of U.S. 31: https://www.in.gov/indot/4003.htm
Two new interchanges (SR 18 and Business 31) will be constructed along with six intersection improvements (CR 800 S, CR 850 S, SR 218 N Junction, SR 218 S Junction, CR 100 N, and SR 16).
Two new interchanges (SR 18 and Business 31) will be constructed along with six intersection improvements (CR 800 S, CR 850 S, SR 218 N Junction, SR 218 S Junction, CR 100 N, and SR 16).
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Finrod on July 21, 2020, 01:49:09 AM
Post by: Finrod on July 21, 2020, 01:49:09 AM
Looks like the recommended option for 31 and Business 31 south of Peru is the half-assed one, IMHO.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on July 25, 2020, 03:28:40 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on July 25, 2020, 03:28:40 PM
J-turns are cheap af too. most are barely $900k.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: theline on August 19, 2020, 12:22:59 AM
Post by: theline on August 19, 2020, 12:22:59 AM
A fatality at the SR-110 intersection over the weekend, the third crash there in the last week, had INDOT again touting the effectiveness of upgrading the intersection to a J-turn:
https://www.wndu.com/2020/08/17/deadly-intersection-along-us-31-still-waiting-on-safety-improvements/
https://www.wndu.com/2020/08/17/deadly-intersection-along-us-31-still-waiting-on-safety-improvements/
QuoteAccording to the Fulton County Sheriff's Department, an accident over the weekend at that intersection claimed the life of 84-year-old Ralph Winters who is a former member of the Culver Town Council. His wife Barbara Winters was driving their Honda Pilot when they were struck by another vehicle heading south on US-31 as Winters was crossing on IN-110. This is the third crash at this intersection in the past week. Barbara Winters was transported to the hospital and her condition is unknown at this time.
Ralph Winters could still be alive if that J-Turn was in place.
"If we had a J-Turn there, a right angle crash would be less-likely, so it would be possible that having that reduced conflict intersection would make it less likely for that crash to occur," [Cassandra] Bajek [spokesperson for INDOT Northwest] says.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on August 19, 2020, 12:28:06 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on August 19, 2020, 12:28:06 AM
And if an overpass was there, they would be on different levels crossing and unaffected.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on October 06, 2020, 11:03:16 PM
Post by: monty on October 06, 2020, 11:03:16 PM
News 8 report on Wilson's Farm Market: https://youtu.be/3hO_wsyJK4A
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on October 07, 2020, 12:24:19 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on October 07, 2020, 12:24:19 PM
valid concerns, but there really doesnt need to be an exit at 256th, especially for just one business. he should just have them sign it on one of the blue signs at the exits before.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on January 12, 2021, 08:10:20 PM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on January 12, 2021, 08:10:20 PM
https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/local_news/new-indot-proposal-includes-us-31-division-rd-interchange/article_4baf8a92-54e7-11eb-aeda-0727ebb4e607.html
Well, the Division Road Interchange is back on the drawing board! However, that means the elimination and transfer of Indiana SR 213 to Tipton County.
Well, the Division Road Interchange is back on the drawing board! However, that means the elimination and transfer of Indiana SR 213 to Tipton County.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on January 12, 2021, 09:10:04 PM
Post by: I-39 on January 12, 2021, 09:10:04 PM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on January 12, 2021, 08:10:20 PM
https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/local_news/new-indot-proposal-includes-us-31-division-rd-interchange/article_4baf8a92-54e7-11eb-aeda-0727ebb4e607.html
Well, the Division Road Interchange is back on the drawing board! However, that means the elimination and transfer of Indiana SR 213 to Tipton County.
I didn't realize they decided to go full freeway between SR 38 and Kokomo, what changed? Kind of make sense for commuter traffic into Indianapolis.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on January 12, 2021, 09:12:40 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on January 12, 2021, 09:12:40 PM
Kind of weird they want to get rid of 213, I wonder if they'll give hamilton county their portion too?
Pixel 5
Pixel 5
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on January 12, 2021, 10:20:55 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on January 12, 2021, 10:20:55 PM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on January 12, 2021, 08:10:20 PM
https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/local_news/new-indot-proposal-includes-us-31-division-rd-interchange/article_4baf8a92-54e7-11eb-aeda-0727ebb4e607.html
Well, the Division Road Interchange is back on the drawing board! However, that means the elimination and transfer of Indiana SR 213 to Tipton County.
It's been a while since I've been on either one, but I remember 213 being a busier route than 19 between 22 and 28, so it's weird to get rid of 213.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: hockeyjohn on January 13, 2021, 09:28:41 AM
Post by: hockeyjohn on January 13, 2021, 09:28:41 AM
I'd recommend to INDOT turning back the stretch of SR 19 north of Tipton (SR 28 to US-35); route SR 19 onto SR 28 east to the present SR 213 and then route it north. The maintains a state highway through Windfall and shortens the US-35/SR 22/SR 19 triplex by several miles. The portion of SR 213 south of SR 28 could remain or be turned back if INDOT is hellbent to remove a certain amount of mileage.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 13, 2021, 06:10:40 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 13, 2021, 06:10:40 PM
What configuration would the new US 31 interchange at Division Rd. be built in? Would it have roundabouts at the ramp terminals like the one at SR 28 does?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ibthebigd on January 13, 2021, 06:45:50 PM
Post by: ibthebigd on January 13, 2021, 06:45:50 PM
Does anyone know Mayor Pete's stance on US 31 becoming an interstate? If Congress ever gets a transportation bill going could he influence US 31 becoming I-67 to Grand Rapids?
SM-G950U
SM-G950U
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on January 13, 2021, 07:06:45 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on January 13, 2021, 07:06:45 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 13, 2021, 06:10:40 PMprobably too early to tell.
What configuration would the new US 31 interchange at Division Rd. be built in? Would it have roundabouts at the ramp terminals like the one at SR 28 does?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: skluth on January 13, 2021, 07:08:02 PM
Post by: skluth on January 13, 2021, 07:08:02 PM
Quote from: ibthebigd on January 13, 2021, 06:45:50 PM
Does anyone know Mayor Pete's stance on US 31 becoming an interstate? If Congress ever gets a transportation bill going could he influence US 31 becoming I-67 to Grand Rapids?
SM-G950U
You're right that it won't be by itself. I'm guessing Biden will want to do some infrastructure projects; they look good politically by creating jobs and generally make proponents of said infrastructure (including many voters) happy. A highway that is nearly to interstate standards could be considered an easy-to-attain project so it wouldn't surprise me. I wouldn't expect it to connect directly with I-196 at its north end because of the endangered species issue and Michigan is already working on the workaround (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9625_21539_53226-496149--,00.html). An new infrastructure bill should at least spur the completion of the I-94 connection. I don't know if either the Keystone Parkway or Meridian St could be upgraded to interstate standards, so that may hold back an I-67 regardless.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: hbelkins on January 13, 2021, 07:29:16 PM
Post by: hbelkins on January 13, 2021, 07:29:16 PM
Quote from: skluth on January 13, 2021, 07:08:02 PMQuote from: ibthebigd on January 13, 2021, 06:45:50 PM
Does anyone know Mayor Pete's stance on US 31 becoming an interstate? If Congress ever gets a transportation bill going could he influence US 31 becoming I-67 to Grand Rapids?
SM-G950U
You're right that it won't be by itself. I'm guessing Biden will want to do some infrastructure projects; they look good politically by creating jobs and generally make proponents of said infrastructure (including many voters) happy. A highway that is nearly to interstate standards could be considered an easy-to-attain project so it wouldn't surprise me. I wouldn't expect it to connect directly with I-196 at its north end because of the endangered species issue and Michigan is already working on the workaround (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9625_21539_53226-496149--,00.html). An new infrastructure bill should at least spur the completion of the I-94 connection. I don't know if either the Keystone Parkway or Meridian St could be upgraded to interstate standards, so that may hold back an I-67 regardless.
I'm going to guess that there might be more luck with BUILD grants (or whatever they will be called). Kentucky got a few of them because Elaine Chao is married to Mitch McConnell. Buttgieg, being from Indiana, might be more inclined to award grants to his home state.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on January 13, 2021, 07:39:52 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on January 13, 2021, 07:39:52 PM
Quote from: skluth on January 13, 2021, 07:08:02 PM
I don't know if either the Keystone Parkway or Meridian St could be upgraded to interstate standards, so that may hold back an I-67 regardless.
Meridian St (US 31) is freeway from I-465 through Carmel, so no upgrades needed there.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Joe The Dragon on January 13, 2021, 08:35:08 PM
Post by: Joe The Dragon on January 13, 2021, 08:35:08 PM
Keystone Parkway get rid of the lights at I-465
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on January 13, 2021, 08:57:57 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on January 13, 2021, 08:57:57 PM
Quote from: hockeyjohn on January 13, 2021, 09:28:41 AM
I'd recommend to INDOT turning back the stretch of SR 19 north of Tipton (SR 28 to US-35); route SR 19 onto SR 28 east to the present SR 213 and then route it north. The maintains a state highway through Windfall and shortens the US-35/SR 22/SR 19 triplex by several miles. The portion of SR 213 south of SR 28 could remain or be turned back if INDOT is hellbent to remove a certain amount of mileage.
That's not a bad idea. SR 19 north of Tipton doesn't appear to be serving much and I would guess not too many people would miss it. The same with SR 213 south of SR 28. But more than all of that, why does SR 19 have that ridiculous multiplex with US 35 and SR 22 and SR 13 and SR 18? The same state that is perfectly fine with two segments to SR 26, a long state-wide highway, just so that it doesn't have to maintain a few miles through Lafayette and West Lafayette, must keep SR 19 all intact?
And how bad are the state's finances if the two choices or either the Division Road interchange or SR 213 in Tipton County? How much is it to maintain that highway on a year-to-year basis. I would assume being a two-lane highway in rural Tipton County shouldn't be breaking the bank that much.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on January 13, 2021, 09:00:44 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on January 13, 2021, 09:00:44 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on January 13, 2021, 08:57:57 PMQuote from: hockeyjohn on January 13, 2021, 09:28:41 AM
I'd recommend to INDOT turning back the stretch of SR 19 north of Tipton (SR 28 to US-35); route SR 19 onto SR 28 east to the present SR 213 and then route it north. The maintains a state highway through Windfall and shortens the US-35/SR 22/SR 19 triplex by several miles. The portion of SR 213 south of SR 28 could remain or be turned back if INDOT is hellbent to remove a certain amount of mileage.
That's not a bad idea. SR 19 north of Tipton doesn't appear to be serving much and I would guess not too many people would miss it. The same with SR 213 south of SR 28. But more than all of that, why does SR 19 have that ridiculous multiplex with US 35 and SR 22 and SR 13 and SR 18? The same state that is perfectly fine with two segments to SR 26, a long state-wide highway, just so that it doesn't have to maintain a few miles through Lafayette and West Lafayette, must keep SR 19 all intact?
And how bad are the state's finances if the two choices or either the Division Road interchange or SR 213 in Tipton County? How much is it to maintain that highway on a year-to-year basis. I would assume being a two-lane highway in rural Tipton County shouldn't be breaking the bank that much.
that 19 multiplex is new. 19 always had a gap until about a decade ago. and i've heard indot is rethinking 31 and 30 and reevaluating the cooridors. what it means for 31 is obvious, it will be full limited access. for 30? no idea...
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on January 13, 2021, 09:19:58 PM
Post by: I-39 on January 13, 2021, 09:19:58 PM
Quote from: skluth on January 13, 2021, 07:08:02 PMQuote from: ibthebigd on January 13, 2021, 06:45:50 PM
Does anyone know Mayor Pete's stance on US 31 becoming an interstate? If Congress ever gets a transportation bill going could he influence US 31 becoming I-67 to Grand Rapids?
SM-G950U
You're right that it won't be by itself. I'm guessing Biden will want to do some infrastructure projects; they look good politically by creating jobs and generally make proponents of said infrastructure (including many voters) happy. A highway that is nearly to interstate standards could be considered an easy-to-attain project so it wouldn't surprise me. I wouldn't expect it to connect directly with I-196 at its north end because of the endangered species issue and Michigan is already working on the workaround (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9625_21539_53226-496149--,00.html). An new infrastructure bill should at least spur the completion of the I-94 connection. I don't know if either the Keystone Parkway or Meridian St could be upgraded to interstate standards, so that may hold back an I-67 regardless.
I don't think a full freeway upgrade north of Kokomo is coming anytime soon. InDOT only seems intent on making the corridor free flowing, and it seems the "interchanges" being put in north of Kokomo are not traditional freeway interchanges. Plus, there's the whole US 20/31 multiplex that's not fully up to interstate standards.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on January 13, 2021, 11:23:04 PM
Post by: monty on January 13, 2021, 11:23:04 PM
SR 19 traffic volume is nearly double that of SR 213 in Tipton County. Tipton people going to Kokomo use SR 19. Grain traffic to Cargill and local truck traffic the same. The "swap" is an interesting proposal. Makes legitimate sense and achieves long term local goals. Maintaining SR 213 as a county road shouldn't be too challenging for Tipton or Hamilton Counties. It's in good shape (especially in Tipton Co) but would be a large INDOT investment to achieve their future standards (narrow ROW and pavement width in Hamilton). US 31 from Kokomo to Indy will be 100% limited access with no at grade access. INDOT promising no stop lights from north side SR 931 Kokomo interchange to US 30 in Plymouth utilizing less expensive intersection improvements (J turns and partial interchanges).
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: theline on January 14, 2021, 01:07:18 AM
Post by: theline on January 14, 2021, 01:07:18 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 13, 2021, 07:29:16 PMAs a South Bend resident, I can attest that this city has had a long bi-partisan interest in raising US-31 between here and Indianapolis to full freeway status, with or without putting an Interstate number on it. While Pete will no doubt have his focus on the big picture, he still has planty of friends in South Bend, including his successor as mayor. If slapping an "I" on the route might help getting funding, then that might happen.Quote from: skluth on January 13, 2021, 07:08:02 PMQuote from: ibthebigd on January 13, 2021, 06:45:50 PM
Does anyone know Mayor Pete's stance on US 31 becoming an interstate? If Congress ever gets a transportation bill going could he influence US 31 becoming I-67 to Grand Rapids?
SM-G950U
You're right that it won't be by itself. I'm guessing Biden will want to do some infrastructure projects; they look good politically by creating jobs and generally make proponents of said infrastructure (including many voters) happy. A highway that is nearly to interstate standards could be considered an easy-to-attain project so it wouldn't surprise me. I wouldn't expect it to connect directly with I-196 at its north end because of the endangered species issue and Michigan is already working on the workaround (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9625_21539_53226-496149--,00.html). An new infrastructure bill should at least spur the completion of the I-94 connection. I don't know if either the Keystone Parkway or Meridian St could be upgraded to interstate standards, so that may hold back an I-67 regardless.
I'm going to guess that there might be more luck with BUILD grants (or whatever they will be called). Kentucky got a few of them because Elaine Chao is married to Mitch McConnell. Buttgieg, being from Indiana, might be more inclined to award grants to his home state.
If a future Interstate route is to continue north from the US-20 interchange on the south side, it's true that some improvement would be needed to bring the route up to standards. The main improvement would be to that interchange, a sub-standard cloverleaf. Many other improvements to the South Bend bypass have accomplished in recent years.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on January 14, 2021, 07:12:40 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on January 14, 2021, 07:12:40 AM
Connecting the segments of 19 never made sense to begin with. If you're going from Noblesville to Amboy, it's faster to take 37->213->22->CR 1100 E (which is a highway quality road), than to just take 19 and those stupid-ass concurrencies.
If that part of 19 really is more used than 213, then fine, keep it, but please renumber it to 21
If that part of 19 really is more used than 213, then fine, keep it, but please renumber it to 21
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on January 14, 2021, 09:44:21 AM
Post by: I-39 on January 14, 2021, 09:44:21 AM
Quote from: theline on January 14, 2021, 01:07:18 AMQuote from: hbelkins on January 13, 2021, 07:29:16 PMAs a South Bend resident, I can attest that this city has had a long bi-partisan interest in raising US-31 between here and Indianapolis to full freeway status, with or without putting an Interstate number on it. While Pete will no doubt have his focus on the big picture, he still has planty of friends in South Bend, including his successor as mayor. If slapping an "I" on the route might help getting funding, then that might happen.Quote from: skluth on January 13, 2021, 07:08:02 PMQuote from: ibthebigd on January 13, 2021, 06:45:50 PM
Does anyone know Mayor Pete's stance on US 31 becoming an interstate? If Congress ever gets a transportation bill going could he influence US 31 becoming I-67 to Grand Rapids?
SM-G950U
You're right that it won't be by itself. I'm guessing Biden will want to do some infrastructure projects; they look good politically by creating jobs and generally make proponents of said infrastructure (including many voters) happy. A highway that is nearly to interstate standards could be considered an easy-to-attain project so it wouldn't surprise me. I wouldn't expect it to connect directly with I-196 at its north end because of the endangered species issue and Michigan is already working on the workaround (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9625_21539_53226-496149--,00.html). An new infrastructure bill should at least spur the completion of the I-94 connection. I don't know if either the Keystone Parkway or Meridian St could be upgraded to interstate standards, so that may hold back an I-67 regardless.
I'm going to guess that there might be more luck with BUILD grants (or whatever they will be called). Kentucky got a few of them because Elaine Chao is married to Mitch McConnell. Buttgieg, being from Indiana, might be more inclined to award grants to his home state.
If a future Interstate route is to continue north from the US-20 interchange on the south side, it's true that some improvement would be needed to bring the route up to standards. The main improvement would be to that interchange, a sub-standard cloverleaf. Many other improvements to the South Bend bypass have accomplished in recent years.
The issue is, the improvements InDOT is planning north of Kokomo are not to interstate standards, including the proposed "interchanges" (as proposed, the interchanges proposed along this segment really aren't proper freeway interchanges). If they want to get a freeway along the corridor, perhaps the congressional delegation will need to take a page from Arkansas and designate the route as "Future I-67" like Arkansas did with "Future I-57". That will guarantee any upgrades will need to be done to Interstate standards.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on January 14, 2021, 12:30:09 PM
Post by: monty on January 14, 2021, 12:30:09 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on January 14, 2021, 07:12:40 AMFun fact: that 1100 E road to Amboy is decommissioned SR 513.
Connecting the segments of 19 never made sense to begin with. If you're going from Noblesville to Amboy, it's faster to take 37->213->22->CR 1100 E (which is a highway quality road), than to just take 19 and those stupid-ass concurrencies.
If that part of 19 really is more used than 213, then fine, keep it, but please renumber it to 21
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on January 14, 2021, 12:53:34 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on January 14, 2021, 12:53:34 PM
Quote from: monty on January 14, 2021, 12:30:09 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on January 14, 2021, 07:12:40 AMFun fact: that 1100 E road to Amboy is decommissioned SR 513.
Connecting the segments of 19 never made sense to begin with. If you're going from Noblesville to Amboy, it's faster to take 37->213->22->CR 1100 E (which is a highway quality road), than to just take 19 and those stupid-ass concurrencies.
If that part of 19 really is more used than 213, then fine, keep it, but please renumber it to 21
I'm not surprised. It looks like it used to be a state highway.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: cjw2001 on January 14, 2021, 10:15:48 PM
Post by: cjw2001 on January 14, 2021, 10:15:48 PM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on January 13, 2021, 08:35:08 PMIncorrect. The lights at 96th street were removed via a new interchange. The I-465 interchange still has two stoplights for traffic from I-465 turning onto Keystone.
Keystone Parkway get rid of the lights at I-465
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on January 15, 2021, 08:08:48 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on January 15, 2021, 08:08:48 AM
Quote from: I-39 on January 14, 2021, 09:44:21 AMNCDOT recently constructed two interchanges along US-70 that are not up to interstate standards, and will soon be going back to reconstruct them to have longer ramps and wider loops to accommodate Interstate 42 which was designated in 2016, after the initial interchanges were designed. Oddly enough, long term freeway upgrades were for many years prior envisioned, so why they built what they did is beyond me.Quote from: theline on January 14, 2021, 01:07:18 AMQuote from: hbelkins on January 13, 2021, 07:29:16 PMAs a South Bend resident, I can attest that this city has had a long bi-partisan interest in raising US-31 between here and Indianapolis to full freeway status, with or without putting an Interstate number on it. While Pete will no doubt have his focus on the big picture, he still has planty of friends in South Bend, including his successor as mayor. If slapping an "I" on the route might help getting funding, then that might happen.Quote from: skluth on January 13, 2021, 07:08:02 PMQuote from: ibthebigd on January 13, 2021, 06:45:50 PM
Does anyone know Mayor Pete's stance on US 31 becoming an interstate? If Congress ever gets a transportation bill going could he influence US 31 becoming I-67 to Grand Rapids?
SM-G950U
You're right that it won't be by itself. I'm guessing Biden will want to do some infrastructure projects; they look good politically by creating jobs and generally make proponents of said infrastructure (including many voters) happy. A highway that is nearly to interstate standards could be considered an easy-to-attain project so it wouldn't surprise me. I wouldn't expect it to connect directly with I-196 at its north end because of the endangered species issue and Michigan is already working on the workaround (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9625_21539_53226-496149--,00.html). An new infrastructure bill should at least spur the completion of the I-94 connection. I don't know if either the Keystone Parkway or Meridian St could be upgraded to interstate standards, so that may hold back an I-67 regardless.
I'm going to guess that there might be more luck with BUILD grants (or whatever they will be called). Kentucky got a few of them because Elaine Chao is married to Mitch McConnell. Buttgieg, being from Indiana, might be more inclined to award grants to his home state.
If a future Interstate route is to continue north from the US-20 interchange on the south side, it's true that some improvement would be needed to bring the route up to standards. The main improvement would be to that interchange, a sub-standard cloverleaf. Many other improvements to the South Bend bypass have accomplished in recent years.
The issue is, the improvements InDOT is planning north of Kokomo are not to interstate standards, including the proposed "interchanges" (as proposed, the interchanges proposed along this segment really aren't proper freeway interchanges). If they want to get a freeway along the corridor, perhaps the congressional delegation will need to take a page from Arkansas and designate the route as "Future I-67" like Arkansas did with "Future I-57". That will guarantee any upgrades will need to be done to Interstate standards.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on January 15, 2021, 02:25:46 PM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on January 15, 2021, 02:25:46 PM
https://wsbt.com/news/local/residents-sign-petition-against-installing-j-turns-on-us-31
Residents along the US 31 corridor want INDOT to stop putting J-Turns and instead, they want a freeway with interchanges.
Residents along the US 31 corridor want INDOT to stop putting J-Turns and instead, they want a freeway with interchanges.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on January 15, 2021, 02:49:10 PM
Post by: I-39 on January 15, 2021, 02:49:10 PM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on January 15, 2021, 02:25:46 PM
https://wsbt.com/news/local/residents-sign-petition-against-installing-j-turns-on-us-31
Residents along the US 31 corridor want INDOT to stop putting J-Turns and instead, they want a freeway with interchanges.
I must say, I find this whole situation incredibly odd. Why is Indiana unwilling to upgrade US 31 to full freeway from South Bend/Elkhart to Indianapolis when every other section of the state is now connected by an Interstate?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on January 15, 2021, 06:58:50 PM
Post by: sparker on January 15, 2021, 06:58:50 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 14, 2021, 09:44:21 AM
The issue is, the improvements InDOT is planning north of Kokomo are not to interstate standards, including the proposed "interchanges" (as proposed, the interchanges proposed along this segment really aren't proper freeway interchanges). If they want to get a freeway along the corridor, perhaps the congressional delegation will need to take a page from Arkansas and designate the route as "Future I-67" like Arkansas did with "Future I-57". That will guarantee any upgrades will need to be done to Interstate standards.
The process for doing just that has been in place since the turn of the century; virtually all the new Interstates designated since that time have gone the congressional-legislation route. In the case of a potential Interstate designation for US 31, the most likely path would be to persuade the Congressperson representing the South Bend/Elkhart area to agree to carry that legislation through the committee gauntlet. Pete B's new position, along with his previous office, places him a juncture where he may be able to, if he so chooses, "grease the skids" so to speak. The wild card here is Michigan and whether they're interested in joining the activity -- and whether they would revive their old circa '64 effort to designate I-67 over what's now I-196. Technically, an all-Indiana designation could terminate at the I-80/90 junction north of South Bend; even if I-67 does enter MI, it may well terminate at I-94 near Benton Harbor if MDOT declines a I-196 numbering change. Getting a similarly-minded congressperson from MI to run point regarding that state's portion of the corridor -- of course as part of a coordinated effort with their IN counterparts -- would add an addition level of credence to a lengthy corridor upgrade project such as this one. Seeing as how there's currently multiple parties and positions within IN circles each with their own agenda (including the locals protesting the J-turn approach north of Kokomo), a clearly defined and unambiguous "master" corridor concept -- such as one intrinsically contained within a high-priority corridor description -- might well be the most effective pathway for getting US 31 elevated to full limited access.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on January 15, 2021, 07:41:43 PM
Post by: monty on January 15, 2021, 07:41:43 PM
This quote from an INDOT spokesman from the recent "no J-turn" article summarizes the long standing and mind numbing proposals and changes that have been made in the US 31 corridor over the last twenty years: "A lot of the projects that we had planned and were kind of on our radar and on our process for the upcoming years, are actually going to be put on hold while we do a study on US 30 and US 31, both corridors," said Bajek.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on January 15, 2021, 09:34:58 PM
Post by: I-39 on January 15, 2021, 09:34:58 PM
Quote from: monty on January 15, 2021, 07:41:43 PM
This quote from an INDOT spokesman from the recent "no J-turn" article summarizes the long standing and mind numbing proposals and changes that have been made in the US 31 corridor over the last twenty years: "A lot of the projects that we had planned and were kind of on our radar and on our process for the upcoming years, are actually going to be put on hold while we do a study on US 30 and US 31, both corridors," said Bajek.
Indiana's whole strategy with the US 31 corridor is super incoherent. Like I said, why must South Bend/Elkhart be the only parts of the state without an Interstate connection? As it stands, the whole dang US 31 corridor is going to be a freeway from Holland MI all the way to Indianapolis; EXCEPT between Plymouth and Kokomo. That makes zero sense. They were so gung ho about building I-69, but I guess upgrading US 31 is just too much. I see the improvements being planned between Plymouth and Kokomo, and it's frankly a disgrace. J-turns have no place on an corridor like US 31. And the "interchanges" they are planning aren't even proper freeway interchanges.
I was previously on the fence on this issue, but it's clear InDOT is taking the cheap way out here and I applaud the citizens for standing up. Make the whole corridor a fully access controlled freeway like you originally promised. Why did you even bother spending the $$$ to build an Interstate grade freeway from South Bend to Plymouth, through Kokomo and from SR 38 to I-465 if you aren't going to finish the job?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-55 on January 15, 2021, 11:43:21 PM
Post by: I-55 on January 15, 2021, 11:43:21 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 15, 2021, 09:34:58 PM
I was previously on the fence on this issue, but it's clear InDOT is taking the cheap way out here and I applaud the citizens for standing up. Make the whole corridor a fully access controlled freeway like you originally promised. Why did you even bother spending the $$$ to build an Interstate grade freeway from South Bend to Plymouth, through Kokomo and from SR 38 to I-465 if you aren't going to finish the job?
The only logic that I can see is that in order to make the whole corridor free flow like INDOT has said they want to they had to build those freeway segments. Kokomo and Carmel were already developed areas with multiple traffic lights, not to mention a freeway just for the sake of those areas individually was needed anyway. As for Plymouth-South Bend, with the free flow idea there were speed drops in La Paz and Lakeville on a surface street alignment with zero median or shoulders, and in order to make it a high speed route they needed a new alignment to avoid bulldozing half the town. I don't agree with the j-turn option, I've always stood behind the idea that 30 and 31 should be full freeways with interstate designations.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on January 16, 2021, 09:09:59 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on January 16, 2021, 09:09:59 AM
Quote from: I-55 on January 15, 2021, 11:43:21 PMQuote from: I-39 on January 15, 2021, 09:34:58 PM
I was previously on the fence on this issue, but it's clear InDOT is taking the cheap way out here and I applaud the citizens for standing up. Make the whole corridor a fully access controlled freeway like you originally promised. Why did you even bother spending the $$$ to build an Interstate grade freeway from South Bend to Plymouth, through Kokomo and from SR 38 to I-465 if you aren't going to finish the job?
The only logic that I can see is that in order to make the whole corridor free flow like INDOT has said they want to they had to build those freeway segments. Kokomo and Carmel were already developed areas with multiple traffic lights, not to mention a freeway just for the sake of those areas individually was needed anyway. As for Plymouth-South Bend, with the free flow idea there were speed drops in La Paz and Lakeville on a surface street alignment with zero median or shoulders, and in order to make it a high speed route they needed a new alignment to avoid bulldozing half the town. I don't agree with the j-turn option, I've always stood behind the idea that 30 and 31 should be full freeways with interstate designations.
I think 31 will eventually be full freeway, but it's not a priority right now. From the standpoint of safety and of improving travel times, getting the rest of 65 expanded to 6 lanes and upgrading sections of 30 are higher priorities. Having grown up in Marshall County and still having family in Elkhart County, I've driven 31 between Plymouth and Kokomo literally hundreds of times. Outside of Notre Dame game weekends, I've rarely encountered traffic volumes that cause slowdowns and/or dangerous situations.
Yes, it would be fantastic to have a full freeway and even an interstate designation, but really there are higher priorities right now.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on January 16, 2021, 09:57:20 AM
Post by: monty on January 16, 2021, 09:57:20 AM
I used to commute to downtown Indy daily for work. Jump on US 31 at 6:30 AM and you'll find thick 70 mph traffic going both directions between Kokomo and Westfield. At 5:30 PM the traffic will be slower and with frequent jams. If INDOT doesn't change their minds again, at least this segment will be upgraded to interstate standards over the next few years. I think that is the reasoning against J turns further north. The pace of the traffic doesn't change as you travel the entire corridor. Traffic counts are lighter between Kokomo and Plymouth and INDOT wants to engineer cheaper alternatives that may work on paper but don't apply well to this case.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on January 16, 2021, 12:19:44 PM
Post by: I-39 on January 16, 2021, 12:19:44 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on January 16, 2021, 09:09:59 AMYes, it would be fantastic to have a full freeway and even an interstate designation, but really there are higher priorities right now.
That's true. However, they shouldn't use that as an excuse to take the cheap way out between Plymouth and Kokomo.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on January 16, 2021, 12:20:46 PM
Post by: I-39 on January 16, 2021, 12:20:46 PM
Quote from: monty on January 16, 2021, 09:57:20 AM
I used to commute to downtown Indy daily for work. Jump on US 31 at 6:30 AM and you'll find thick 70 mph traffic going both directions between Kokomo and Westfield. At 5:30 PM the traffic will be slower and with frequent jams. If INDOT doesn't change their minds again, at least this segment will be upgraded to interstate standards over the next few years. I think that is the reasoning against J turns further north. The pace of the traffic doesn't change as you travel the entire corridor. Traffic counts are lighter between Kokomo and Plymouth and INDOT wants to engineer cheaper alternatives that may work on paper but don't apply well to this case.
Not only does the Kokomo-Indianapolis segment need to be full freeway, it may even need six lanes at some point.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Life in Paradise on January 16, 2021, 12:56:28 PM
Post by: Life in Paradise on January 16, 2021, 12:56:28 PM
IDOT outside of Indianapolis does not normally think of the long picture. Examples: the original bypass of Kokomo of US31, which has had to totally be redone, where it could have been limited access originally. In Evansville there is an intersection of the Lloyd Expressway where people were asking prior to the construction that there be an overpass installed since it would be a major bottleneck in the near future. This was prior to a lot of the intersection construction, and proper land could have been had at a good price. They failed to do this (expressway created in mid 80s) and have reconstructed the intersection once, and have plans to do so with the new disconnected left turn idea, and still no overpass, which would have solve the problem.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on January 16, 2021, 01:27:58 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on January 16, 2021, 01:27:58 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 16, 2021, 12:19:44 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on January 16, 2021, 09:09:59 AMYes, it would be fantastic to have a full freeway and even an interstate designation, but really there are higher priorities right now.
That's true. However, they shouldn't use that as an excuse to take the cheap way out between Plymouth and Kokomo.
I guess the question is, if the full freeway is 20+ years away, are the cheaper options worth having for that amount of time?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on January 16, 2021, 01:34:38 PM
Post by: I-39 on January 16, 2021, 01:34:38 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on January 16, 2021, 01:27:58 PMQuote from: I-39 on January 16, 2021, 12:19:44 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on January 16, 2021, 09:09:59 AMYes, it would be fantastic to have a full freeway and even an interstate designation, but really there are higher priorities right now.
That's true. However, they shouldn't use that as an excuse to take the cheap way out between Plymouth and Kokomo.
I guess the question is, if the full freeway is 20+ years away, are the cheaper options worth having for that amount of time?
And the answer is no. Leave it as it is until you are ready to convert to full
interstate freeway. However, restrict any new access points in the interim.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on January 16, 2021, 02:55:03 PM
Post by: I-39 on January 16, 2021, 02:55:03 PM
This is a very incoherent statement by InDOT. Under the FAQ on the US 31 "Limited access" project page they state the following.
4. Why can't right-in/right outs be constructed at intersections to allow partial access to county roads?
While construction of right-in and right-out intersections would be possible at select locations, one goal of the project is to convert to US 31 to a free-flow corridor. If right-in/right-out access was to be granted at county roads, US 31 would need to be upgraded to Freeway standards. This includes the construction of acceleration and deceleration lanes and would result in added cost and right-of-way impacts. Converting US 31 to Freeway standards would cost an estimated four to five times more than the free-flow plan. Additionally, overpasses will be needed to provide cross county connectivity.
https://www.in.gov/indot/4051.htm (https://www.in.gov/indot/4051.htm)
Um, unless there was a major redefinition of road terms that I missed, you are converting this section to freeway standards. Right in/out would be a free flow corridor, like you are doing with the J turns north of Kokomo. Are they desperately trying not to say they are making this section a freeway?
4. Why can't right-in/right outs be constructed at intersections to allow partial access to county roads?
While construction of right-in and right-out intersections would be possible at select locations, one goal of the project is to convert to US 31 to a free-flow corridor. If right-in/right-out access was to be granted at county roads, US 31 would need to be upgraded to Freeway standards. This includes the construction of acceleration and deceleration lanes and would result in added cost and right-of-way impacts. Converting US 31 to Freeway standards would cost an estimated four to five times more than the free-flow plan. Additionally, overpasses will be needed to provide cross county connectivity.
https://www.in.gov/indot/4051.htm (https://www.in.gov/indot/4051.htm)
Um, unless there was a major redefinition of road terms that I missed, you are converting this section to freeway standards. Right in/out would be a free flow corridor, like you are doing with the J turns north of Kokomo. Are they desperately trying not to say they are making this section a freeway?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 16, 2021, 02:55:38 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 16, 2021, 02:55:38 PM
US 31 from Indianapolis to South Bend should be completely freeway, but not an Interstate.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on January 16, 2021, 04:51:01 PM
Post by: sparker on January 16, 2021, 04:51:01 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 16, 2021, 02:55:38 PM
US 31 from Indianapolis to South Bend should be completely freeway, but not an Interstate.
Since the 1991 ISTEA, which introduced the high-priority corridor concept (with the option of Interstate designation) most states constructing full freeways are doing so to Interstate standards in any case; I'd assume INDOT would do likewise with US 31 (the completed portion from I-465 north to IN 38 as well as the Kokomo Bypass are constructed to those standards). Of course, it would be up to the individual state to request an Interstate designation -- which is why the Congressional/legislated route is more often the methodology of choice to do so these days -- effectively a "unilateral" application of designation that bypasses the DOT/AASHTO process. Of course, by doing it that way politics are injected into the process in a more direct fashion than the interagency slog method, but these days it's often the most efficient way to get a regional Interstate designated if not fully developed.
INDOT won't likely "tank" a full freeway project in order to thwart political pressure toward an Interstate designation; their chosen methodology of record is simply to not even classify the facility as a full limited-access freeway, but as an upgrade of the current roadway (hence the J-turn push). in all likelihood if a series of projects to upgrade US 31 to a full freeway along the full length of the corridor reaches fruition, they'll be done to Interstate standards. Then it'll be up to INDOT to initiate the designation process if it so chooses -- or, more likely, a legislator from somewhere along the corridor will do so on his or her own at the federal level. Bottom line -- if it's done as a freeway, it'll be to Interstate standards, and somewhere along the line one party or another will pursue an Interstate designation for the corridor.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on January 16, 2021, 05:12:55 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on January 16, 2021, 05:12:55 PM
in a few yrs there will be no lights from 465 to SR 18. interchanges are planned at 236th, 276th, and division road. the rr tracks will get a bridge too in tipton co.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on February 02, 2021, 07:18:53 PM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on February 02, 2021, 07:18:53 PM
I am not that surprised that this happened... :-/
https://www.crossville-chronicle.com/news/tennessee_news/tipton-co-rejects-us-31-division-rd-interchange-plan/article_4878d7be-1fd7-5779-ae87-06a6225f19ba.html
https://www.crossville-chronicle.com/news/tennessee_news/tipton-co-rejects-us-31-division-rd-interchange-plan/article_4878d7be-1fd7-5779-ae87-06a6225f19ba.html
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on February 02, 2021, 07:28:40 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on February 02, 2021, 07:28:40 PM
I see their point in not wanting to take over 213. I think indot will end up paying for it eventually.
Pixel 5
Pixel 5
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on February 02, 2021, 09:51:10 PM
Post by: I-39 on February 02, 2021, 09:51:10 PM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on February 02, 2021, 07:18:53 PM
I am not that surprised that this happened... :-/
https://www.crossville-chronicle.com/news/tennessee_news/tipton-co-rejects-us-31-division-rd-interchange-plan/article_4878d7be-1fd7-5779-ae87-06a6225f19ba.html
And here they still aren't referring to this segment as a freeway. I don't get it.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on February 06, 2021, 05:34:03 AM
Post by: sparker on February 06, 2021, 05:34:03 AM
Quote from: I-39 on February 02, 2021, 09:51:10 PMQuote from: Great Lakes Roads on February 02, 2021, 07:18:53 PM
I am not that surprised that this happened... :-/
https://www.crossville-chronicle.com/news/tennessee_news/tipton-co-rejects-us-31-division-rd-interchange-plan/article_4878d7be-1fd7-5779-ae87-06a6225f19ba.html
And here they still aren't referring to this segment as a freeway. I don't get it.
It's pretty simple, really -- INDOT doesn't want to publicly commit to full-"freewayization" of US 31 from Indy to Kokomo, at least in the near term. Within their own ranks, it's probably been decided that eventually it'll be all freeway, but even hinting as to when that'll occur isn't in the cards right now for any number of reasons fiscal and even political. Although a sizeable portion of the route has already been raised to freeway standards, these days publicly stating that long-range freeway plans are forthcoming often results in pointed criticism from some quarters (usually the usual suspect in that regard such as die-hard urbanists and their supporters) or, alternately, continued pressure from those who benefit from deployment of new freeways; more often than not local residents. Thus more than a few DOT's keep the addition of freeway miles largely "on the down low", deploying a mile or two here and there until a full new facility is up & running.
An educated guess -- INDOT's preference would have been the "midwest corridor" concept -- freeway bypasses of the major towns along route along with deployment of interchanges at major intersecting routes, with controlled-access expressway for as much of the remainder of the route could be deployed, but tolerating private access if such was longstanding, the usual result of route "twinning". However, both internal policy differences -- which "roller-coaster" between support for a full freeway between Indy and South Bend and the abject realization that there's little in the way of funds to support such a concept -- and today's political atmosphere have rendered such plans DOA. Since the whole corridor was built out to 4 lanes, but with the retention of full private access along much of the length, any upgrades will come at some cost of continued good will between INDOT and the public arena along the corridor. Private homes and farms along the route will at some point be inconvenienced by said upgrades, even if simply limited to access to one's side of the road via RIRO's and/or median barriers. The "J-turn" concept was an attempt by INDOT to effectively "have it all" with minimal expense of both construction funds and public good will -- but it backfired; the locals saw the attempt to technically maintain US 31 traffic as "free flowing" but with a high level of inconvenience to cross-traffic from intersecting highways and roads.
At this point it appears that the local residents have come to the realization that a full freeway, with all the by-products of somewhat lessened immediate access to parties immediately along the original route, is likely to be the final outcome, so they're in favor of INDOT building out to this standard ASAP -- but the agency just lacks the funds to do so near-term, positing "stop-gap" measures such as the aforementioned J-turns for safety purposes. But when confronted with this local push-back, the agency, lacking a cohesive "plan B", proposes interim measures within its budgetary guidelines, resulting in even more negative local reaction. I for one suspect that eventually INDOT will commence planning to elevate the entire route to a full freeway, likely Interstate-grade, but at a decidedly leisurely pace that reflects financial limitations.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: LM117 on February 06, 2021, 11:42:00 AM
Post by: LM117 on February 06, 2021, 11:42:00 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 15, 2021, 08:08:48 AMQuote from: I-39 on January 14, 2021, 09:44:21 AMNCDOT recently constructed two interchanges along US-70 that are not up to interstate standards, and will soon be going back to reconstruct them to have longer ramps and wider loops to accommodate Interstate 42 which was designated in 2016, after the initial interchanges were designed. Oddly enough, long term freeway upgrades were for many years prior envisioned, so why they built what they did is beyond me.Quote from: theline on January 14, 2021, 01:07:18 AMQuote from: hbelkins on January 13, 2021, 07:29:16 PMAs a South Bend resident, I can attest that this city has had a long bi-partisan interest in raising US-31 between here and Indianapolis to full freeway status, with or without putting an Interstate number on it. While Pete will no doubt have his focus on the big picture, he still has planty of friends in South Bend, including his successor as mayor. If slapping an "I" on the route might help getting funding, then that might happen.Quote from: skluth on January 13, 2021, 07:08:02 PMQuote from: ibthebigd on January 13, 2021, 06:45:50 PM
Does anyone know Mayor Pete's stance on US 31 becoming an interstate? If Congress ever gets a transportation bill going could he influence US 31 becoming I-67 to Grand Rapids?
SM-G950U
You're right that it won't be by itself. I'm guessing Biden will want to do some infrastructure projects; they look good politically by creating jobs and generally make proponents of said infrastructure (including many voters) happy. A highway that is nearly to interstate standards could be considered an easy-to-attain project so it wouldn't surprise me. I wouldn't expect it to connect directly with I-196 at its north end because of the endangered species issue and Michigan is already working on the workaround (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9625_21539_53226-496149--,00.html). An new infrastructure bill should at least spur the completion of the I-94 connection. I don't know if either the Keystone Parkway or Meridian St could be upgraded to interstate standards, so that may hold back an I-67 regardless.
I'm going to guess that there might be more luck with BUILD grants (or whatever they will be called). Kentucky got a few of them because Elaine Chao is married to Mitch McConnell. Buttgieg, being from Indiana, might be more inclined to award grants to his home state.
If a future Interstate route is to continue north from the US-20 interchange on the south side, it's true that some improvement would be needed to bring the route up to standards. The main improvement would be to that interchange, a sub-standard cloverleaf. Many other improvements to the South Bend bypass have accomplished in recent years.
The issue is, the improvements InDOT is planning north of Kokomo are not to interstate standards, including the proposed "interchanges" (as proposed, the interchanges proposed along this segment really aren't proper freeway interchanges). If they want to get a freeway along the corridor, perhaps the congressional delegation will need to take a page from Arkansas and designate the route as "Future I-67" like Arkansas did with "Future I-57". That will guarantee any upgrades will need to be done to Interstate standards.
Probably because even though upgrading US-70 to a freeway was a long-term goal, locals in eastern NC didn't start pushing for an interstate designation until 2013, so interstate standards didn't come into play until recent years.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on February 06, 2021, 05:40:58 PM
Post by: I-39 on February 06, 2021, 05:40:58 PM
Quote from: sparker on February 06, 2021, 05:34:03 AMQuote from: I-39 on February 02, 2021, 09:51:10 PMQuote from: Great Lakes Roads on February 02, 2021, 07:18:53 PM
I am not that surprised that this happened... :-/
https://www.crossville-chronicle.com/news/tennessee_news/tipton-co-rejects-us-31-division-rd-interchange-plan/article_4878d7be-1fd7-5779-ae87-06a6225f19ba.html
And here they still aren't referring to this segment as a freeway. I don't get it.
It's pretty simple, really -- INDOT doesn't want to publicly commit to full-"freewayization" of US 31 from Indy to Kokomo, at least in the near term. Within their own ranks, it's probably been decided that eventually it'll be all freeway, but even hinting as to when that'll occur isn't in the cards right now for any number of reasons fiscal and even political. Although a sizeable portion of the route has already been raised to freeway standards, these days publicly stating that long-range freeway plans are forthcoming often results in pointed criticism from some quarters (usually the usual suspect in that regard such as die-hard urbanists and their supporters) or, alternately, continued pressure from those who benefit from deployment of new freeways; more often than not local residents. Thus more than a few DOT's keep the addition of freeway miles largely "on the down low", deploying a mile or two here and there until a full new facility is up & running.
An educated guess -- INDOT's preference would have been the "midwest corridor" concept -- freeway bypasses of the major towns along route along with deployment of interchanges at major intersecting routes, with controlled-access expressway for as much of the remainder of the route could be deployed, but tolerating private access if such was longstanding, the usual result of route "twinning". However, both internal policy differences -- which "roller-coaster" between support for a full freeway between Indy and South Bend and the abject realization that there's little in the way of funds to support such a concept -- and today's political atmosphere have rendered such plans DOA. Since the whole corridor was built out to 4 lanes, but with the retention of full private access along much of the length, any upgrades will come at some cost of continued good will between INDOT and the public arena along the corridor. Private homes and farms along the route will at some point be inconvenienced by said upgrades, even if simply limited to access to one's side of the road via RIRO's and/or median barriers. The "J-turn" concept was an attempt by INDOT to effectively "have it all" with minimal expense of both construction funds and public good will -- but it backfired; the locals saw the attempt to technically maintain US 31 traffic as "free flowing" but with a high level of inconvenience to cross-traffic from intersecting highways and roads.
At this point it appears that the local residents have come to the realization that a full freeway, with all the by-products of somewhat lessened immediate access to parties immediately along the original route, is likely to be the final outcome, so they're in favor of INDOT building out to this standard ASAP -- but the agency just lacks the funds to do so near-term, positing "stop-gap" measures such as the aforementioned J-turns for safety purposes. But when confronted with this local push-back, the agency, lacking a cohesive "plan B", proposes interim measures within its budgetary guidelines, resulting in even more negative local reaction. I for one suspect that eventually INDOT will commence planning to elevate the entire route to a full freeway, likely Interstate-grade, but at a decidedly leisurely pace that reflects financial limitations.
I agree about it becoming a full freeway eventually. It doesn't make sense to have every corner of the state connected by a freeway EXCEPT South Bend.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on March 23, 2021, 09:42:09 AM
Post by: monty on March 23, 2021, 09:42:09 AM
Looks like the 236th St interchange construction is soon to commence: https://www.in.gov/indot/files/US%2031%20and%20236th%20Fact%20Sheet.jpg
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: bmeiser on March 23, 2021, 09:45:57 AM
Post by: bmeiser on March 23, 2021, 09:45:57 AM
Went through there this weekend and the Speedway is closed and some demolition was going on on the west side of 31 just north of the intersection.
Also looked to be some demo going on around the railroad crossing just south of Division Rd in Tipton county.
Also looked to be some demo going on around the railroad crossing just south of Division Rd in Tipton county.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on March 30, 2021, 10:11:17 PM
Post by: monty on March 30, 2021, 10:11:17 PM
Back to the drawing board in Tipton County: https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/local_news/indot-goes-back-to-drawing-board-for-u-s-31-plans-in-tipton-county/article_ec648f1c-90c1-11eb-b510-9f365416515d.html?fbclid=IwAR0AyNQAQtjowIEB75KRi9x6BnzgQSwqxGH7elJkKKfokuK7bIIdtQq-nh0#utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on March 30, 2021, 10:21:50 PM
Post by: I-39 on March 30, 2021, 10:21:50 PM
Quote from: monty on March 30, 2021, 10:11:17 PM
Back to the drawing board in Tipton County: https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/local_news/indot-goes-back-to-drawing-board-for-u-s-31-plans-in-tipton-county/article_ec648f1c-90c1-11eb-b510-9f365416515d.html?fbclid=IwAR0AyNQAQtjowIEB75KRi9x6BnzgQSwqxGH7elJkKKfokuK7bIIdtQq-nh0#utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
Oh my gosh, this is getting ridiculous. InDOT needs to make up their mind!
Even if the whole corridor ultimately ends up not being so, the section between SR 38 and Kokomo needs to be fully access controlled freeway, period end of discussion.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on March 30, 2021, 11:35:25 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on March 30, 2021, 11:35:25 PM
Question... what is stopping InDOT from increasing the speed limit on the US-31 freeway between I-465 and SH-38 from 55 mph to 65 mph? Every other freeway (I-65, I-74, I-70, I-69) outside the beltway immediately bumps to 65 mph, but US-31 stays 55 mph and doesn't increase to 60 mph until it becomes a non-limited access highway.
Assuming speed limit laws did not discriminate between interstate highway (70 mph) and limited access highway (65 mph), US-31 should be 65 mph up until SH-38, then 70 mph on an upgraded corridor north to Kokomo.
Assuming speed limit laws did not discriminate between interstate highway (70 mph) and limited access highway (65 mph), US-31 should be 65 mph up until SH-38, then 70 mph on an upgraded corridor north to Kokomo.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-55 on March 30, 2021, 11:37:01 PM
Post by: I-55 on March 30, 2021, 11:37:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 30, 2021, 11:35:25 PM
Question... what is stopping InDOT from increasing the speed limit on the US-31 freeway between I-465 and SH-38 from 55 mph to 65 mph? Every other freeway (I-65, I-74, I-70, I-69) outside the beltway immediately bumps to 65 mph, but US-31 stays 55 mph and doesn't increase to 60 mph until it becomes a non-limited access highway.
I always thought this was due to a noise ordinance in Carmel but could never confirm. I've done 75 easy on that stretch with traffic so the limit is certainly too low imho.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on March 31, 2021, 07:27:47 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on March 31, 2021, 07:27:47 AM
Quote from: I-55 on March 30, 2021, 11:37:01 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on March 30, 2021, 11:35:25 PM
Question... what is stopping InDOT from increasing the speed limit on the US-31 freeway between I-465 and SH-38 from 55 mph to 65 mph? Every other freeway (I-65, I-74, I-70, I-69) outside the beltway immediately bumps to 65 mph, but US-31 stays 55 mph and doesn't increase to 60 mph until it becomes a non-limited access highway.
I always thought this was due to a noise ordinance in Carmel but could never confirm. I've done 75 easy on that stretch with traffic so the limit is certainly too low imho.
In a different thread, someone was suggesting that I-465 needs to have some or all of its speed limit upgraded to 65. Nearly 100% of my driving in the Indy area is at times other than rush hour, so I don't feel qualified to comment on whether or not the speed limits are too low. On just about any freeway it's going to be fine to do 15+ over the speed limit during off-peak times.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on March 31, 2021, 09:30:51 AM
Post by: tdindy88 on March 31, 2021, 09:30:51 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 30, 2021, 11:35:25 PM
Question... what is stopping InDOT from increasing the speed limit on the US-31 freeway between I-465 and SH-38 from 55 mph to 65 mph? Every other freeway (I-65, I-74, I-70, I-69) outside the beltway immediately bumps to 65 mph, but US-31 stays 55 mph and doesn't increase to 60 mph until it becomes a non-limited access highway.
I could guess that the closeness of some of the exits from I-465 to Keystone Parkway might "necessitate" a lower limit. The cynical person in me would suggest it's a way to improve Carmel's coffers. Those roundabouts aren't going to pay for themselves after all .
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on March 31, 2021, 09:37:55 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on March 31, 2021, 09:37:55 AM
The reason is state law, INDOT's hands are tied. State law says 55 in urban areas. 69 in Ham Co was placed at 65 well before this area was urban so they never lowered it.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on March 31, 2021, 09:45:35 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on March 31, 2021, 09:45:35 AM
I'm willing to bet INDOT is going to come up with the obvious answer from this 2-3 study. Overpasses at all the previously planned roads and cul-de-sacs and a full interchange at division road.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on March 31, 2021, 11:58:00 AM
Post by: I-39 on March 31, 2021, 11:58:00 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on March 31, 2021, 09:45:35 AM
I'm willing to bet INDOT is going to come up with the obvious answer from this 2-3 study. Overpasses at all the previously planned roads and cul-de-sacs and a full interchange at division road.
That is what they had proposed. Why are they changing this?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on March 31, 2021, 12:03:53 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on March 31, 2021, 12:03:53 PM
Quote from: I-39 on March 31, 2021, 11:58:00 AMQuote from: silverback1065 on March 31, 2021, 09:45:35 AM
I'm willing to bet INDOT is going to come up with the obvious answer from this 2-3 study. Overpasses at all the previously planned roads and cul-de-sacs and a full interchange at division road.
That is what they had proposed. Why are they changing this?
they took out the division road interchange due to money. then brought it back if the county took over 213 county refused. i think they will realize that they will need to go back to their original idea.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on April 05, 2021, 07:12:28 PM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on April 05, 2021, 07:12:28 PM
The original website on the US 31 limited-access upgrade between SR 38 in Westfield to SR 931 in Kokomo has since been upgraded to... the U.S. 31 Limited-Access Upgrade between SR 38 to 286th Street in northern Hamilton County.
https://www.in.gov/indot/4277.htm
Interchanges will be located at 236th and 276th Streets with a right-in, right-out (RIRO) configuration at 286th Street.
Overpasses will be located at 226th and 266th Streets with cul-del-sacs at 216th, 241st, 246th, 256th, and 281st Streets.
Construction should start in late 2021 with the 236th Street interchange with phases to start in FY 2022.
Timeline (my prediction):
2021-2022: 236th Street Interchange
2022-2023: 276th Street Interchange and upgrades on 31 between the 276th Street interchange to 286th Street intersection
2023-2024: Upgrades on 31 between SR 38 and 236th Street interchanges
2024-2025: Upgrades on 31 between 236th Street and 276th Street interchages
https://www.in.gov/indot/4277.htm
Interchanges will be located at 236th and 276th Streets with a right-in, right-out (RIRO) configuration at 286th Street.
Overpasses will be located at 226th and 266th Streets with cul-del-sacs at 216th, 241st, 246th, 256th, and 281st Streets.
Construction should start in late 2021 with the 236th Street interchange with phases to start in FY 2022.
Timeline (my prediction):
2021-2022: 236th Street Interchange
2022-2023: 276th Street Interchange and upgrades on 31 between the 276th Street interchange to 286th Street intersection
2023-2024: Upgrades on 31 between SR 38 and 236th Street interchanges
2024-2025: Upgrades on 31 between 236th Street and 276th Street interchages
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on April 05, 2021, 08:39:07 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on April 05, 2021, 08:39:07 PM
Why the RIRO for 286th Street? Couldn't that just be a cul-de-sac or an overpass.I still think 276th is stupid for an interchange. There should be one at 266th instead for a straighter shot to Arcadia and one at 296th for Atlanta. That plus the one at Division Road should be perfect enough for US 31 up to Kokomo.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on April 05, 2021, 08:52:35 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on April 05, 2021, 08:52:35 PM
If the discussed corridor is ultimately to be completely upgraded to freeway standards, there should be no RIRO intersections, or any at-grade intersections period.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on April 05, 2021, 09:14:00 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on April 05, 2021, 09:14:00 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on April 05, 2021, 08:39:07 PM
Why the RIRO for 286th Street? Couldn't that just be a cul-de-sac or an overpass.I still think 276th is stupid for an interchange. There should be one at 266th instead for a straighter shot to Arcadia and one at 296th for Atlanta. That plus the one at Division Road should be perfect enough for US 31 up to Kokomo.
I agree, but it's there because Hamilton County considers 276th St. a major cooridor. It also leads to a large business east of 31.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on April 05, 2021, 09:14:24 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on April 05, 2021, 09:14:24 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on April 05, 2021, 08:39:07 PM
Why the RIRO for 286th Street? Couldn't that just be a cul-de-sac or an overpass.I still think 276th is stupid for an interchange. There should be one at 266th instead for a straighter shot to Arcadia and one at 296th for Atlanta. That plus the one at Division Road should be perfect enough for US 31 up to Kokomo.
one word, MONEY :-D
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on April 05, 2021, 09:48:23 PM
Post by: monty on April 05, 2021, 09:48:23 PM
Really, all that has changed is a speedier completion for the Hamilton County segment while waiting for the three year study and delaying major work in Tipton County. If you read the entire document, you can anticipate closure of the median in Tipton County where deemed necessary during the interim study period.
I suppose this also delays (yet again) the NS RR overpass project, which has been rated the number one or two highest rated safety project along this corridor for many years. I could write a book on all the INDOT changes along this corridor. I'm not going to state that the conversion is an easy or inexpensive thing to do, but the constant changes sows so much public confusion.
I suppose this also delays (yet again) the NS RR overpass project, which has been rated the number one or two highest rated safety project along this corridor for many years. I could write a book on all the INDOT changes along this corridor. I'm not going to state that the conversion is an easy or inexpensive thing to do, but the constant changes sows so much public confusion.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on April 05, 2021, 10:19:41 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on April 05, 2021, 10:19:41 PM
I believe the railroad bridge is still a go. The rest of the Tipton County part is now delayed.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on April 06, 2021, 03:39:50 AM
Post by: sparker on April 06, 2021, 03:39:50 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 05, 2021, 09:14:24 PMQuote from: tdindy88 on April 05, 2021, 08:39:07 PM
Why the RIRO for 286th Street? Couldn't that just be a cul-de-sac or an overpass.I still think 276th is stupid for an interchange. There should be one at 266th instead for a straighter shot to Arcadia and one at 296th for Atlanta. That plus the one at Division Road should be perfect enough for US 31 up to Kokomo.
one word, MONEY :-D
It looks like 286th Street marks the north limits of the upgrades, limited in scope as they are. The RIRO set there is likely a "stop-gap measure to render the whole section in Hamilton County as "free-flow"; if a decision to pursue a full-freeway option occurs down the line, that could be readily turned into a folded diamond with an overpass for 286th. At least there aren't any J-turns proposed for this section -- INDOT has apparently taken the hand-slapping they got for that concept in Miami County to heart and has adjusted their planning efforts accordingly.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on April 06, 2021, 12:21:34 PM
Post by: monty on April 06, 2021, 12:21:34 PM
I agree with Sparker. Drive south beyond 286th St after this phase and speed limit jumps to 65 for seven miles. North of there, we will see reduced crossovers and ad hoc measures until the study is over and we learn what is newly planned for Tipton County.
I am interested in seeing how a new proposed J turn is received in Miami County at US 24 & IN 19.
I am interested in seeing how a new proposed J turn is received in Miami County at US 24 & IN 19.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on April 06, 2021, 12:22:21 PM
Post by: monty on April 06, 2021, 12:22:21 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on April 05, 2021, 10:19:41 PM
I believe the railroad bridge is still a go. The rest of the Tipton County part is now delayed.
Sure hope so!
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on April 06, 2021, 05:52:08 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on April 06, 2021, 05:52:08 PM
296th is going to be interesting. there's a sizable cemetery really close to the intersection and a church.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on April 06, 2021, 07:57:47 PM
Post by: monty on April 06, 2021, 07:57:47 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 06, 2021, 05:52:08 PMYes it is! I suspect that is why the phase 1 Hamilton Co project stops at 286th. That's also the Tipton County line, so technically it's part of the Tipton plan. I anticipate a bridge-over pushed north away from the church and cemetery. But that doesn't alleviate how close the southbound lanes are to the cemetery. There may be some room to bump the highway a bit east without getting too close to the church building.
296th is going to be interesting. there's a sizable cemetery really close to the intersection and a church.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: roadman65 on June 30, 2021, 06:38:12 PM
Post by: roadman65 on June 30, 2021, 06:38:12 PM
According to INDOT they are just creating what they call a free flow highway which in their minds is equal to travel on a freeway.
https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
Considering Indiana law only allows a posted speed limit of 60 mph on expressways and freeways in the Hoosier State can have a 70 mph max if it's an interstate and a 65 mph speed zone if it's state or US designated, the freeway has an advantage still over a free flow.
So their logic is twisted.
https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
Considering Indiana law only allows a posted speed limit of 60 mph on expressways and freeways in the Hoosier State can have a 70 mph max if it's an interstate and a 65 mph speed zone if it's state or US designated, the freeway has an advantage still over a free flow.
So their logic is twisted.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on June 30, 2021, 07:11:14 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on June 30, 2021, 07:11:14 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 30, 2021, 06:38:12 PM
According to INDOT they are just creating what they call a free flow highway which in their minds is equal to travel on a freeway.
https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
Considering Indiana law only allows a posted speed limit of 60 mph on expressways and freeways in the Hoosier State can have a 70 mph max if it's an interstate and a 65 mph speed zone if it's state or US designated, the freeway has an advantage still over a free flow.
So their logic is twisted.
They're just saying that to get themselves out of making it an interstate and saving money.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on June 30, 2021, 07:40:28 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 30, 2021, 07:40:28 PM
^ They just need to change the law to permit 65 mph on divided highways, and 70 mph on non-interstate freeways. It would be in line with neighboring states.
But regardless of speeds, the ultimate goal for US-31 between Indianapolis and South Bend should be a 70 mph limited access highway.
But regardless of speeds, the ultimate goal for US-31 between Indianapolis and South Bend should be a 70 mph limited access highway.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on June 30, 2021, 07:42:38 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on June 30, 2021, 07:42:38 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 30, 2021, 07:40:28 PM
^ They just need to change the law to permit 65 mph on divided highways, and 70 mph on non-interstate freeways. It would be in line with neighboring states.
everyone already does it anyway :-D
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on June 30, 2021, 07:47:05 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 30, 2021, 07:47:05 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 30, 2021, 07:42:38 PMTrue. And probably much faster, 75-80 mph. Same situation with the 60 mph restriction here in Virginia. But the speed limit should at least be closer to reality, and 65 mph is more reasonable. 70 mph would be ideal even on the non limited access segments, but 65 mph stands more of a political chance.Quote from: sprjus4 on June 30, 2021, 07:40:28 PM
^ They just need to change the law to permit 65 mph on divided highways, and 70 mph on non-interstate freeways. It would be in line with neighboring states.
everyone already does it anyway :-D
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 08:01:11 PM
Post by: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 08:01:11 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 30, 2021, 07:11:14 PMQuote from: roadman65 on June 30, 2021, 06:38:12 PM
According to INDOT they are just creating what they call a free flow highway which in their minds is equal to travel on a freeway.
https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
Considering Indiana law only allows a posted speed limit of 60 mph on expressways and freeways in the Hoosier State can have a 70 mph max if it's an interstate and a 65 mph speed zone if it's state or US designated, the freeway has an advantage still over a free flow.
So their logic is twisted.
They're just saying that to get themselves out of making it an interstate and saving money.
At this point, it's only fair to upgrade US 31 into an Interstate. They let the cat out of the bag by building I-69. Not that I'm necessarily in support of it, but why should South Bend be the only corner of Indians without an Interstate?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on June 30, 2021, 08:05:40 PM
Post by: sparker on June 30, 2021, 08:05:40 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 30, 2021, 06:38:12 PM
According to INDOT they are just creating what they call a free flow highway which in their minds is equal to travel on a freeway.
https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
Considering Indiana law only allows a posted speed limit of 60 mph on expressways and freeways in the Hoosier State can have a 70 mph max if it's an interstate and a 65 mph speed zone if it's state or US designated, the freeway has an advantage still over a free flow.
So their logic is twisted.
According to the INDOT blurb, the aim is (a) to have a functional freeway north from Indy to Kokomo, done in phases (up to 286th first; north of there later), but (b) from that point north a mixed facility with some sort of either J-turn, Michigan Lefts, or similar methods to address cross traffic from major arteries and feeders. The document as supplied basically reiterates what they were proposing back in 2018, particularly in the segment from Kokomo north to US 24 (Grissom Field territory), where "intersection treatment" is rife (and no indication that they're going to limit private access along this stretch). Now -- from previous posts here, it seemed like there had been serious "blowback" in Miami County regarding the addition of intersection convolutions, and that the residents there preferred either maintaining the status quo or constructing a full freeway -- no interim "solutions" -- but if the document is both correct and current, INDOT has basically ignored the protestations and pushed forward with plans resembling the original configurations. As they have freely admitted that the "free flow" plans they plan to implement are being done so primarily for the cost savings over a full freeway, it's likely that these plans are far from a fait accompli; equally likely is the possibility that the local residents affected by these plans will complain to their local state representatives, which could well place said plans back up in the air.
There are quite a few parties that have in the past few decades pressed for a full freeway from Indy to South Bend, but INDOT has seen fit to keep pushing interim measures instead, opting for a "quick fix" rather than the alternate approach of making full upgrades section by section until it's done once and for all, even if over a longer developmental horizon. Maybe the I-69 projects south of Indy are all they can handle, cost-wise, for the present -- but putting money into facility configurations that may turn out to be quite temporary due to political and user complaints just doesn't seem to be the wisest deployment of resources. It leads me to wonder just who within or connected to INDOT is pushing for this short-term "free flow" solution; it doesn't seem to come from any parties along the corridor itself.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on June 30, 2021, 08:11:59 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on June 30, 2021, 08:11:59 PM
Quote from: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 08:01:11 PMQuote from: silverback1065 on June 30, 2021, 07:11:14 PMQuote from: roadman65 on June 30, 2021, 06:38:12 PM
According to INDOT they are just creating what they call a free flow highway which in their minds is equal to travel on a freeway.
https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
Considering Indiana law only allows a posted speed limit of 60 mph on expressways and freeways in the Hoosier State can have a 70 mph max if it's an interstate and a 65 mph speed zone if it's state or US designated, the freeway has an advantage still over a free flow.
So their logic is twisted.
They're just saying that to get themselves out of making it an interstate and saving money.
At this point, it's only fair to upgrade US 31 into an Interstate. They let the cat out of the bag by building I-69. Not that I'm necessarily in support of it, but why should South Bend be the only corner of Indians without an Interstate?
South Bend does have Interstates 80 and 90, they are tolled of course but still interstates.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 08:14:34 PM
Post by: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 08:14:34 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on June 30, 2021, 08:11:59 PMQuote from: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 08:01:11 PMQuote from: silverback1065 on June 30, 2021, 07:11:14 PMQuote from: roadman65 on June 30, 2021, 06:38:12 PM
According to INDOT they are just creating what they call a free flow highway which in their minds is equal to travel on a freeway.
https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
Considering Indiana law only allows a posted speed limit of 60 mph on expressways and freeways in the Hoosier State can have a 70 mph max if it's an interstate and a 65 mph speed zone if it's state or US designated, the freeway has an advantage still over a free flow.
So their logic is twisted.
They're just saying that to get themselves out of making it an interstate and saving money.
At this point, it's only fair to upgrade US 31 into an Interstate. They let the cat out of the bag by building I-69. Not that I'm necessarily in support of it, but why should South Bend be the only corner of Indians without an Interstate?
South Bend does have Interstates 80 and 90, they are tolled of course but still interstates.
I'm sorry, I meant a N/S interstate to the state capitol. Every corner of the state will have one when I-69 is completed except the North central/South Bend region.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on June 30, 2021, 08:50:07 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on June 30, 2021, 08:50:07 PM
Quote from: sparker on June 30, 2021, 08:05:40 PMQuote from: roadman65 on June 30, 2021, 06:38:12 PM
According to INDOT they are just creating what they call a free flow highway which in their minds is equal to travel on a freeway.
https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm
Considering Indiana law only allows a posted speed limit of 60 mph on expressways and freeways in the Hoosier State can have a 70 mph max if it's an interstate and a 65 mph speed zone if it's state or US designated, the freeway has an advantage still over a free flow.
So their logic is twisted.
According to the INDOT blurb, the aim is (a) to have a functional freeway north from Indy to Kokomo, done in phases (up to 286th first; north of there later), but (b) from that point north a mixed facility with some sort of either J-turn, Michigan Lefts, or similar methods to address cross traffic from major arteries and feeders. The document as supplied basically reiterates what they were proposing back in 2018, particularly in the segment from Kokomo north to US 24 (Grissom Field territory), where "intersection treatment" is rife (and no indication that they're going to limit private access along this stretch). Now -- from previous posts here, it seemed like there had been serious "blowback" in Miami County regarding the addition of intersection convolutions, and that the residents there preferred either maintaining the status quo or constructing a full freeway -- no interim "solutions" -- but if the document is both correct and current, INDOT has basically ignored the protestations and pushed forward with plans resembling the original configurations. As they have freely admitted that the "free flow" plans they plan to implement are being done so primarily for the cost savings over a full freeway, it's likely that these plans are far from a fait accompli; equally likely is the possibility that the local residents affected by these plans will complain to their local state representatives, which could well place said plans back up in the air.
There are quite a few parties that have in the past few decades pressed for a full freeway from Indy to South Bend, but INDOT has seen fit to keep pushing interim measures instead, opting for a "quick fix" rather than the alternate approach of making full upgrades section by section until it's done once and for all, even if over a longer developmental horizon. Maybe the I-69 projects south of Indy are all they can handle, cost-wise, for the present -- but putting money into facility configurations that may turn out to be quite temporary due to political and user complaints just doesn't seem to be the wisest deployment of resources. It leads me to wonder just who within or connected to INDOT is pushing for this short-term "free flow" solution; it doesn't seem to come from any parties along the corridor itself.
I've driven US 31 from Plymouth to Indy many times in my life. Way too many. The section from Plymouth to just north of Peru is fine as is. Maybe a couple J turns at the busiest intersections is all it needs. Peru to Kokomo and Kokomo to Tipton could certainly benefit from a full freeway upgrade.
Do I think it would be cool to have an interstate running from Indy-South Bend? Yes. Do I think it's necessary, or at least more important than 6-laning the rest of I-65 and I-70? Absolutely not.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on June 30, 2021, 09:10:44 PM
Post by: sparker on June 30, 2021, 09:10:44 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
From US 24 north to Peru would arguably be the most readily upgradable segment; the geometry's there, and what private access there is could either be dealt with by frontage roads or shunted to the nearest local road. It's north and south of Kokomo that's problematic due to uncontrolled access and the fact that the present facility was simply either laid atop the original 2-lane highway or is the product of twinning. INDOT seems more than willing to, with a few projects over a short time span, build a full freeway from Indy to Kokomo; connecting that city to the state capital by freeway appears to have been prioritized if not expedited. But either north or south of there, particularly in Miami County, the projects simply won't be cheap nor easy; a lot of property would have to be acquired (which the "free flow" non-freeway method would mostly circumvent) and the construction would probably be disruptive to both local and US 31 traffic. And that's probably more than INDOT can stomach right now -- hence, why unpopular interim measures are still in process. Maybe they should tackle the "low-lying-fruit" first; complete things north to Kokomo, since that was already in the works, then address Peru-Plymouth, leaving the Miami County mess for last.
From US 24 north to Peru would arguably be the most readily upgradable segment; the geometry's there, and what private access there is could either be dealt with by frontage roads or shunted to the nearest local road. It's north and south of Kokomo that's problematic due to uncontrolled access and the fact that the present facility was simply either laid atop the original 2-lane highway or is the product of twinning. INDOT seems more than willing to, with a few projects over a short time span, build a full freeway from Indy to Kokomo; connecting that city to the state capital by freeway appears to have been prioritized if not expedited. But either north or south of there, particularly in Miami County, the projects simply won't be cheap nor easy; a lot of property would have to be acquired (which the "free flow" non-freeway method would mostly circumvent) and the construction would probably be disruptive to both local and US 31 traffic. And that's probably more than INDOT can stomach right now -- hence, why unpopular interim measures are still in process. Maybe they should tackle the "low-lying-fruit" first; complete things north to Kokomo, since that was already in the works, then address Peru-Plymouth, leaving the Miami County mess for last.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 10:07:02 PM
Post by: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 10:07:02 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on June 30, 2021, 08:50:07 PM
Do I think it would be cool to have an interstate running from Indy-South Bend? Yes. Do I think it's necessary, or at least more important than 6-laning the rest of I-65 and I-70? Absolutely not.
I agree, but with the construction of I-69, I guarantee you Kokomo, South Bend and the communities along US 31 are going to get cranky with InDOT over their unwillingness to make US 31 fully Interstate-grade when they have Interstates going in every other direction from Indianapolis. It's kind of hypocritical if you ask me.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on June 30, 2021, 10:10:51 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on June 30, 2021, 10:10:51 PM
Quote from: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 10:07:02 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on June 30, 2021, 08:50:07 PM
Do I think it would be cool to have an interstate running from Indy-South Bend? Yes. Do I think it's necessary, or at least more important than 6-laning the rest of I-65 and I-70? Absolutely not.
I agree, but with the construction of I-69, I guarantee you Kokomo, South Bend and the communities along US 31 are going to get cranky with InDOT over their unwillingness to make US 31 fully Interstate-grade when they have Interstates going in every other direction from Indianapolis. It's kind of hypocritical if you ask me.
Except that Bloomington-Evansville didn't have a 4 lane highway at all, so when they built it from scratch, might as well make it a freeway. South Bend-Kokomo already has a 4 lane highway, so the need isn't as urgent.
Other than the 7 Saturdays a year that Notre Dame has home games, I've never, ever been unable to set my cruise at 10 over going between South Bend and Kokomo. Going between Merrillville and Lafayette on I-65, you're lucky if you can go 10 over for more than a couple miles before coming up on a truck in the left lane passing a truck in the right lane.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 10:27:43 PM
Post by: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 10:27:43 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on June 30, 2021, 10:10:51 PMQuote from: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 10:07:02 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on June 30, 2021, 08:50:07 PM
Do I think it would be cool to have an interstate running from Indy-South Bend? Yes. Do I think it's necessary, or at least more important than 6-laning the rest of I-65 and I-70? Absolutely not.
I agree, but with the construction of I-69, I guarantee you Kokomo, South Bend and the communities along US 31 are going to get cranky with InDOT over their unwillingness to make US 31 fully Interstate-grade when they have Interstates going in every other direction from Indianapolis. It's kind of hypocritical if you ask me.
Except that Bloomington-Evansville didn't have a 4 lane highway at all, so when they built it from scratch, might as well make it a freeway. South Bend-Kokomo already has a 4 lane highway, so the need isn't as urgent.
Other than the 7 Saturdays a year that Notre Dame has home games, I've never, ever been unable to set my cruise at 10 over going between South Bend and Kokomo. Going between Merrillville and Lafayette on I-65, you're lucky if you can go 10 over for more than a couple miles before coming up on a truck in the left lane passing a truck in the right lane.
Yes, but was an Interstate needed between Evansville and Bloomington over a predominately rural area? Not really. I agree upgrading 31 to an Interstate is not really needed, but I-69 really wasn't needed either, yet they built it. So it's kind of hypocritical to deny South Bend an Interstate connection to Indianapolis when you gave every other area of the state one.
You are absolutely correct about I-65, it should have been 6 laned throughout the state before ANY work was done on either I-69 or US 31. It is an absolute mess. Finishing it should be the top priority for InDOT for this decade.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on June 30, 2021, 11:16:29 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 30, 2021, 11:16:29 PM
Quote from: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 10:27:43 PMExcept unlike Indianapolis and South Bend, not even a 4 lane divided highway existed between the two cities (Bloomington and Evansville), let alone any adequate routes. The construction of a four lane divided highway between the cities was warranted at minimum, and because it was apart of this I-69 corridor concept, why not just simply build it to interstate standards? And there came I-69 in southern Indiana.
Yes, but was an Interstate needed between Evansville and Bloomington over a predominately rural area? Not really.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on July 19, 2021, 02:43:43 PM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on July 19, 2021, 02:43:43 PM
Starting on or after July 26th, work will begin on the bridge over the Norfolk-Southern Railroad in Tipton County. Construction on the actual bridge won't start until Spring 2022, and the completion date is Fall 2023.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: hbelkins on July 19, 2021, 02:51:31 PM
Post by: hbelkins on July 19, 2021, 02:51:31 PM
Quote from: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 10:27:43 PM
Yes, but was an Interstate needed between Evansville and Bloomington over a predominately rural area?
Were the conversions of the I-24/Purchase Parkway and WK Parkway/Pennyrile Parkway interchanges really needed? No, but they were not Kentucky-specific projects, just as the construction of I-69 was not an Indiana-specific project. Same could be said of Union City, Tenn. Does that town need a third bypass? This is to be a multi-state corridor.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 04:17:09 PM
Post by: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 04:17:09 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 19, 2021, 02:51:31 PMQuote from: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 10:27:43 PM
Yes, but was an Interstate needed between Evansville and Bloomington over a predominately rural area?
Were the conversions of the I-24/Purchase Parkway and WK Parkway/Pennyrile Parkway interchanges really needed? No, but they were not Kentucky-specific projects, just as the construction of I-69 was not an Indiana-specific project. Same could be said of Union City, Tenn. Does that town need a third bypass? This is to be a multi-state corridor.
I know, but I-69 wasn't needed period. It's the biggest political pork project out there today.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 19, 2021, 04:50:53 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 19, 2021, 04:50:53 PM
Quote from: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 04:17:09 PMQuote from: hbelkins on July 19, 2021, 02:51:31 PMQuote from: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 10:27:43 PM
Yes, but was an Interstate needed between Evansville and Bloomington over a predominately rural area?
Were the conversions of the I-24/Purchase Parkway and WK Parkway/Pennyrile Parkway interchanges really needed? No, but they were not Kentucky-specific projects, just as the construction of I-69 was not an Indiana-specific project. Same could be said of Union City, Tenn. Does that town need a third bypass? This is to be a multi-state corridor.
I know, but I-69 wasn't needed period. It's the biggest political pork project out there today.
I think we're all saying different things.
Indiana needed a new terrain four lane highway from Bloomington to Evansville, so it might as well have been a freeway. As to whether it needed to be called I-69 or whether the other freeway sections needed to get built is a separate issue.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on July 19, 2021, 09:41:32 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on July 19, 2021, 09:41:32 PM
Quote from: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 04:17:09 PMSorry, but nope.Quote from: hbelkins on July 19, 2021, 02:51:31 PMQuote from: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 10:27:43 PM
Yes, but was an Interstate needed between Evansville and Bloomington over a predominately rural area?
Were the conversions of the I-24/Purchase Parkway and WK Parkway/Pennyrile Parkway interchanges really needed? No, but they were not Kentucky-specific projects, just as the construction of I-69 was not an Indiana-specific project. Same could be said of Union City, Tenn. Does that town need a third bypass? This is to be a multi-state corridor.
I know, but I-69 wasn't needed period. It's the biggest political pork project out there today.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Terry Shea on July 19, 2021, 10:13:02 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on July 19, 2021, 10:13:02 PM
Quote from: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 04:17:09 PMApparently you don't know your pork! :)Quote from: hbelkins on July 19, 2021, 02:51:31 PMQuote from: I-39 on June 30, 2021, 10:27:43 PM
Yes, but was an Interstate needed between Evansville and Bloomington over a predominately rural area?
Were the conversions of the I-24/Purchase Parkway and WK Parkway/Pennyrile Parkway interchanges really needed? No, but they were not Kentucky-specific projects, just as the construction of I-69 was not an Indiana-specific project. Same could be said of Union City, Tenn. Does that town need a third bypass? This is to be a multi-state corridor.
I know, but I-69 wasn't needed period. It's the biggest political pork project out there today.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on July 19, 2021, 10:33:03 PM
Post by: monty on July 19, 2021, 10:33:03 PM
At a US 31 Coalition function early in Gov. Holcomb's first term the president of the Coalition spoke that he is looking forward to the day that he can set his cruise control between Indy and South Bend and never stop the entire distance. The governor took that to heart, but his state highway commissioner(s) took the initiative to eliminate the corridor's stoplights and railroads but INDOT never committed to interstate standard design for the full corridor. Certainly cost savings have played a large role in eliminating "stop points" cheaply during a time when highway funds are tight, thus honoring the governor's reciprocal pledge without breaking the highway budget. Neither INDOT nor the Coalition have promoted the corridor as a designated interstate corridor. The Coalition's mission is for the entire corridor to South Bend be upgraded to freeway quality.
The conversion to full freeway from I465 through Hamilton County appears readily apparent by INDOT public action and active projects. Tipton County is going back to yet another INDOT study but also seems likely to attain upgrades to freeway status in the foreseeable future. Beyond that, there is much to debate.
The conversion to full freeway from I465 through Hamilton County appears readily apparent by INDOT public action and active projects. Tipton County is going back to yet another INDOT study but also seems likely to attain upgrades to freeway status in the foreseeable future. Beyond that, there is much to debate.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 10:44:29 PM
Post by: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 10:44:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 19, 2021, 09:41:32 PMQuote from: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 04:17:09 PMSorry, but nope.
I know, but I-69 wasn't needed period. It's the biggest political pork project out there today.
Sorry, but yes. I-69 is incredibly redundant with existing interstates, it serves no purpose.
Quote from: cabiness42 on July 19, 2021, 04:50:53 PM
Indiana needed a new terrain four lane highway from Bloomington to Evansville, so it might as well have been a freeway.
No they didn't. No offense, but Evansville is not important enough to justify a full fledged freeway/interstate. I suppose a four lane would have been ok, but if South Bend is not worthy of an Interstate connection to Indianapolis, then Evansville isn't either.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on July 19, 2021, 10:48:22 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on July 19, 2021, 10:48:22 PM
Quote from: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 10:44:29 PMMore direct than existing interstates, and provides redundancy to a very busy corridor. It definitely serves a purpose, at least once fully complete.
Sorry, but yes. I-69 is incredibly redundant with existing interstates, it serves no purpose.
Either way, regardless of your opinion, it's being built and mostly already has been complete. Sorry to break it to you :-|
It's more useful than I-39, for the record.
QuoteNo corridor existed between Evansville and Bloomington. They built a new terrain route, and simply built it to full freeway standards. It wasn't much more of an expense to construct it to interstate standards vs. divided highway when it's all new alignment. South Bend to Indianapolis, on the other hand, already exists as a four lane divided highway.
No they didn't. No offense, but Evansville is not important enough to justify a full fledged freeway/interstate. I suppose a four lane would have been ok, but if South Bend is not worthy of an Interstate connection to Indianapolis, then Evansville isn't either.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: roadman65 on July 19, 2021, 10:53:54 PM
Post by: roadman65 on July 19, 2021, 10:53:54 PM
Just follow US 101 between San Fran and Eureka and you can have a non interstate freeway with stoplights.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-55 on July 19, 2021, 10:56:41 PM
Post by: I-55 on July 19, 2021, 10:56:41 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 19, 2021, 10:53:54 PM
Just follow US 101 between San Fran and Eureka and you can have a non interstate freeway with stoplights.
Or much closer to IN, US-33 east of Columbus.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 10:57:51 PM
Post by: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 10:57:51 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 19, 2021, 10:48:22 PM
More direct than existing interstates, and provides redundancy to a very busy corridor. It definitely serves a purpose, at least once fully complete.
Either way, regardless of your opinion, it's being built and mostly already has been complete. Sorry to break it to you :-|
Direct to what?
I know it's virtually complete in Indiana, but hardly any of it has been completed outside of Indiana and Kentucky. And it will be decades before it is completed.
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 19, 2021, 10:48:22 PM
It's more useful than I-39, for the record.
Not sure how this is relevant, but nevertheless, that is laughable to say the least
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on July 19, 2021, 11:30:57 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on July 19, 2021, 11:30:57 PM
Quote from: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 10:57:51 PMMemphis to Indianapolis.
Direct to what?
Indiana and Kentucky is virtually complete, and Tennessee is about half way. It's definitely making progress. The remainder south of I-155 is certainly needed, not only for Memphis to Indianapolis, but also Memphis to Louisville and other connections via the Parkway system.
Texas I-69 is certainly a viable corridor, with the possible exception of I-69W. But the mainline north of Victoria, and I-69E / I-69C are all useful. And they're not redundant.
QuoteNot sure how this is relevant, but nevertheless, that is laughable to say the leastBased off of your username. I-39 is just as "useless" as I-69. And unlike I-69, doesn't even serve long haul freight traffic in as important of a manner that a corridor like I-69 would.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on July 20, 2021, 12:14:17 AM
Post by: sparker on July 20, 2021, 12:14:17 AM
I'd say the last few previous posts should be directed at the I-69/Indiana thread in Ohio Valley rather than clog up a thread dealing with another IN corridor decidedly not I-69! And seeing as how the whole I-69 corridor has threads devoted to its sections in those regional boards through which it travels criticism of the corridor as a whole or in part should go there. Apples & oranges, you know! Upgrades of US 31 need to be discussed on their own merits rather than in comparison with other state corridors. There's no national coalition, loose as it is, backing an Interstate from Indy to Benton Harbor; just a series of statements by IN luminaries plus others by INDOT regarding just what the plans are for US 31 and, lo and behold, they don't always match! My prediction: for the next 10-15 years US 31 will be a mix of facility types: freeway from Indy/I-465 to just beyond Kokomo; "experimental" (meaning J-turns, RIRO's, etc.) up to US 24, with the existing expressway remaining north of there to Plymouth with the occasional upgrade to crossing road grade separation/interchanges as funding allows (and local politics demands), and, of course, the existing freeway north from there to US 20. Miami County is the tricky spot -- a full freeway through there, with the requisite amount of interchanges and local-road truncations, would be both controversial and expensive -- so that section will likely have its proverbial can kicked down the road for decades. Despite the current plans for J-turn modifications; it wouldn't be at all surprising if the near-term decision for that section is "no build"; leaving it in its current state until funding can be found for a solution that pleases as many parties as possible -- likely a full freeway with a lot of interchanges and crossings (at that point the controversy goes away but the expense remains).
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ilpt4u on July 20, 2021, 12:15:34 AM
Post by: ilpt4u on July 20, 2021, 12:15:34 AM
I-39 has good utility - combined with I-57 and/or I-74 it is the Far Out Chicago Bypass, and the Truck/Freight traffic maps show it
Dream world would have I-39 actually continue due south to meet up with I-57 near Salem, IL (to essentially upgrade the US 51 corridor to Interstate Standard in Illinois fully), but I think those dreams have come and gone. The jog east to Effingham and Champaign alas is part of the Bypass cooridor
On point with US 31 upgrades, tho:I-39US 51 between Bloomington/Normal and Decatur is what those not quite Interstate Standard upgrades look like, including traffic signals around small towns like Clinton, IL
Dream world would have I-39 actually continue due south to meet up with I-57 near Salem, IL (to essentially upgrade the US 51 corridor to Interstate Standard in Illinois fully), but I think those dreams have come and gone. The jog east to Effingham and Champaign alas is part of the Bypass cooridor
On point with US 31 upgrades, tho:
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 20, 2021, 07:28:02 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 20, 2021, 07:28:02 AM
Quote from: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 10:44:29 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on July 19, 2021, 04:50:53 PM
Indiana needed a new terrain four lane highway from Bloomington to Evansville, so it might as well have been a freeway.
No they didn't. No offense, but Evansville is not important enough to justify a full fledged freeway/interstate. I suppose a four lane would have been ok, but if South Bend is not worthy of an Interstate connection to Indianapolis, then Evansville isn't either.
It isn't a matter of comparison between South Bend and Evansville. South Bend already had a four lane highway to Indy. Evansville didn't, so it had to be built. If you're already building a road from scratch, it doesn't cost that much more to make it a freeway.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on July 20, 2021, 12:39:55 PM
Post by: sparker on July 20, 2021, 12:39:55 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on July 20, 2021, 07:28:02 AMQuote from: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 10:44:29 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on July 19, 2021, 04:50:53 PM
Indiana needed a new terrain four lane highway from Bloomington to Evansville, so it might as well have been a freeway.
No they didn't. No offense, but Evansville is not important enough to justify a full fledged freeway/interstate. I suppose a four lane would have been ok, but if South Bend is not worthy of an Interstate connection to Indianapolis, then Evansville isn't either.
It isn't a matter of comparison between South Bend and Evansville. South Bend already had a four lane highway to Indy. Evansville didn't, so it had to be built. If you're already building a road from scratch, it doesn't cost that much more to make it a freeway.
Besides, the Evansville-based backers had the foresight (and moxie) to go out and cobble up a multiregional corridor in which to embed their section; this brought national attention to the project. As it turned out, with KY and TN electing to improve existing corridors for their section (assuming it'll get to Memphis but stall past that), IN had the sole completely new-terrain segment SW of Bloomington. As a nationally publicized new Interstate corridor, there was no choice but to build it to those standards -- but they built the totally new segments first, leaving the existing-route modifications to the end, a process designed to ensure that most of the Indy-Evansville corridor would actually be constructed; connecting it at the ends could come later. Given the various controversies regarding alignment and environmental concerns, that strategy proved valid.
But comparisons to US 31 are sketchy at best; the latter is all modification/upgrades; existing access patterns and the treatment of adjacent housing and facilities are concerns for pretty much the whole corridor. Addressing those simply adds to the cost of whatever facility configuration is planned, so mile for mile more individual problems accumulate -- unlike I-69, which could tackle the new-terrain issues on a wholesale basis. Those who look at an existing facility, even a divided (often twinned) highway like US 31, and see an easy row to hoe when it comes to upgrades are often mistaken; those modifications more often than not entail dealing with individual aggrieved parties which in sum are more problematic than terrain and fully new construction.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on July 20, 2021, 12:44:35 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on July 20, 2021, 12:44:35 PM
Interesting fact I learned about i-69. The bridge over the patoka river is the longest bridge in Indiana! It's that long due to environmental concerns and bad soils.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: triplemultiplex on July 20, 2021, 03:26:56 PM
Post by: triplemultiplex on July 20, 2021, 03:26:56 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 20, 2021, 12:44:35 PMAnd due to Kentucky claiming the far bank of the Ohio River as its border back in the day. :P
Interesting fact I learned about i-69. The bridge over the patoka river is the longest bridge in Indiana! It's that long due to environmental concerns and bad soils.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: hbelkins on July 20, 2021, 10:10:42 PM
Post by: hbelkins on July 20, 2021, 10:10:42 PM
I've long said that a full freeway from South Bend to Indy is not necessary. Now that the Kokomo bypass is finished, existing US 31 isn't exactly a signal-plagued corridor. Traffic moves well on the four-lane that has at-grades and the occasional signals aren't problematic.
I'm not sure how many of you were around when the MTR flame wars over I-69 were common. There was a certain segment of the population who advocated upgrading existing US 41 between Evansville and Terre Haute and routing I-69 west of Indy as a concurrency with I-70. Their arguments in favor were that the route would only be a handful of miles longer and wouldn't require a lot of new construction and disruptions such as what was done around Bloomington. Some of those discussions got pretty heated.
And I always got flamed when I said there was no need to turn US 31 into an interstate, that it was fine as it was (kind of like when I make that argument about US 220 between Martinsville and Roanoke :-D .)
I'm not sure how many of you were around when the MTR flame wars over I-69 were common. There was a certain segment of the population who advocated upgrading existing US 41 between Evansville and Terre Haute and routing I-69 west of Indy as a concurrency with I-70. Their arguments in favor were that the route would only be a handful of miles longer and wouldn't require a lot of new construction and disruptions such as what was done around Bloomington. Some of those discussions got pretty heated.
And I always got flamed when I said there was no need to turn US 31 into an interstate, that it was fine as it was (kind of like when I make that argument about US 220 between Martinsville and Roanoke :-D .)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: bmeiser on July 20, 2021, 10:59:44 PM
Post by: bmeiser on July 20, 2021, 10:59:44 PM
I agree that traffic moves pretty well on 31 as is, but there are some dangerous spots that definitely need some attention in the near future. As somebody that frequents US 31 between Indy and Rochester, the most dangerous segment, IMO is between the 2 freeway segments in Hamilton County and Kokomo. I'm happy to see actual plans for Hamilton County and that INDOT is buying up property in Tipton County. If only the latter could come to some sort of agreement with INDOT and somehow get those at-grade intersections removed, I think the whole corridor from Indy to South Bend will be good for the foreseeable future.
As for north of Kokomo to the northern freeway segment, J-turns, RIRO, whatever you want to call them are a complete waste of time and money and just sound terrifying to me. I'd rather slow down briefly for a semi crossing the road at an inopportune time than slam on my brakes as one merges into the fast lane to get over to some BS U-turn lane, only to cause the same danger on the other side of the road. Right now that whole section is pretty tame and easy going. No need to make it worse. I think the plans that INDOT currently has in place for this segment (https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm), aside from the aforementioned BS U-turn lanes, seem adequate for me for now.
As for north of Kokomo to the northern freeway segment, J-turns, RIRO, whatever you want to call them are a complete waste of time and money and just sound terrifying to me. I'd rather slow down briefly for a semi crossing the road at an inopportune time than slam on my brakes as one merges into the fast lane to get over to some BS U-turn lane, only to cause the same danger on the other side of the road. Right now that whole section is pretty tame and easy going. No need to make it worse. I think the plans that INDOT currently has in place for this segment (https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm), aside from the aforementioned BS U-turn lanes, seem adequate for me for now.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on July 21, 2021, 07:39:52 AM
Post by: monty on July 21, 2021, 07:39:52 AM
Construction for the bridge over NS RR tracks in Tipton County begins July 26.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: US 41 on July 21, 2021, 09:01:16 AM
Post by: US 41 on July 21, 2021, 09:01:16 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on July 20, 2021, 07:28:02 AMQuote from: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 10:44:29 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on July 19, 2021, 04:50:53 PM
Indiana needed a new terrain four lane highway from Bloomington to Evansville, so it might as well have been a freeway.
No they didn't. No offense, but Evansville is not important enough to justify a full fledged freeway/interstate. I suppose a four lane would have been ok, but if South Bend is not worthy of an Interstate connection to Indianapolis, then Evansville isn't either.
It isn't a matter of comparison between South Bend and Evansville. South Bend already had a four lane highway to Indy. Evansville didn't, so it had to be built. If you're already building a road from scratch, it doesn't cost that much more to make it a freeway.
Evansville did have a 4 lane highway to Indy. US 41 to I-70. 641 was proposed for a long time and was finally complete when it was no longer as useful as it could have been. Still if you live in Vincennes, 41/641/70 is the fastest way to Indianapolis, and it was before they closed 37 in Martinsville.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on July 21, 2021, 09:03:55 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on July 21, 2021, 09:03:55 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 20, 2021, 10:10:42 PM
I've long said that a full freeway from South Bend to Indy is not necessary. Now that the Kokomo bypass is finished, existing US 31 isn't exactly a signal-plagued corridor. Traffic moves well on the four-lane that has at-grades and the occasional signals aren't problematic.
I'm not sure how many of you were around when the MTR flame wars over I-69 were common. There was a certain segment of the population who advocated upgrading existing US 41 between Evansville and Terre Haute and routing I-69 west of Indy as a concurrency with I-70. Their arguments in favor were that the route would only be a handful of miles longer and wouldn't require a lot of new construction and disruptions such as what was done around Bloomington. Some of those discussions got pretty heated.
And I always got flamed when I said there was no need to turn US 31 into an interstate, that it was fine as it was (kind of like when I make that argument about US 220 between Martinsville and Roanoke :-D .)
I think that's reasonable, i would remove all signals and i think that would work.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on July 21, 2021, 09:05:35 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on July 21, 2021, 09:05:35 AM
Quote from: US 41 on July 21, 2021, 09:01:16 AMQuote from: cabiness42 on July 20, 2021, 07:28:02 AMQuote from: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 10:44:29 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on July 19, 2021, 04:50:53 PM
Indiana needed a new terrain four lane highway from Bloomington to Evansville, so it might as well have been a freeway.
No they didn't. No offense, but Evansville is not important enough to justify a full fledged freeway/interstate. I suppose a four lane would have been ok, but if South Bend is not worthy of an Interstate connection to Indianapolis, then Evansville isn't either.
It isn't a matter of comparison between South Bend and Evansville. South Bend already had a four lane highway to Indy. Evansville didn't, so it had to be built. If you're already building a road from scratch, it doesn't cost that much more to make it a freeway.
Evansville did have a 4 lane highway to Indy. US 41 to I-70. 641 was proposed for a long time and was finally complete when it was no longer as useful as it could have been. Still if you live in Vincennes, 41/641/70 is the fastest way to Indianapolis, and it was before they closed 37 in Martinsville.
I think 641 is supposed to eventually tie into SR 63 NW of Terre Haute. if this ever happens INDOT will almost certainly remove all state highways inside terre haute and through them all on the 641 bypass.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: SEWIGuy on July 21, 2021, 09:09:47 AM
Post by: SEWIGuy on July 21, 2021, 09:09:47 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 21, 2021, 09:05:35 AMQuote from: US 41 on July 21, 2021, 09:01:16 AMQuote from: cabiness42 on July 20, 2021, 07:28:02 AMQuote from: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 10:44:29 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on July 19, 2021, 04:50:53 PM
Indiana needed a new terrain four lane highway from Bloomington to Evansville, so it might as well have been a freeway.
No they didn't. No offense, but Evansville is not important enough to justify a full fledged freeway/interstate. I suppose a four lane would have been ok, but if South Bend is not worthy of an Interstate connection to Indianapolis, then Evansville isn't either.
It isn't a matter of comparison between South Bend and Evansville. South Bend already had a four lane highway to Indy. Evansville didn't, so it had to be built. If you're already building a road from scratch, it doesn't cost that much more to make it a freeway.
Evansville did have a 4 lane highway to Indy. US 41 to I-70. 641 was proposed for a long time and was finally complete when it was no longer as useful as it could have been. Still if you live in Vincennes, 41/641/70 is the fastest way to Indianapolis, and it was before they closed 37 in Martinsville.
I think 641 is supposed to eventually tie into SR 63 NW of Terre Haute. if this ever happens INDOT will almost certainly remove all state highways inside terre haute and through them all on the 641 bypass.
They would have to swing that road so far east, and then cut back west over the river to the point where I am not sure it would actually be quicker than simply going through town.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 21, 2021, 09:13:51 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 21, 2021, 09:13:51 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 21, 2021, 09:05:35 AMQuote from: US 41 on July 21, 2021, 09:01:16 AMQuote from: cabiness42 on July 20, 2021, 07:28:02 AMQuote from: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 10:44:29 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on July 19, 2021, 04:50:53 PM
Indiana needed a new terrain four lane highway from Bloomington to Evansville, so it might as well have been a freeway.
No they didn't. No offense, but Evansville is not important enough to justify a full fledged freeway/interstate. I suppose a four lane would have been ok, but if South Bend is not worthy of an Interstate connection to Indianapolis, then Evansville isn't either.
It isn't a matter of comparison between South Bend and Evansville. South Bend already had a four lane highway to Indy. Evansville didn't, so it had to be built. If you're already building a road from scratch, it doesn't cost that much more to make it a freeway.
Evansville did have a 4 lane highway to Indy. US 41 to I-70. 641 was proposed for a long time and was finally complete when it was no longer as useful as it could have been. Still if you live in Vincennes, 41/641/70 is the fastest way to Indianapolis, and it was before they closed 37 in Martinsville.
I think 641 is supposed to eventually tie into SR 63 NW of Terre Haute. if this ever happens INDOT will almost certainly remove all state highways inside terre haute and through them all on the 641 bypass.
Is that realistic though? If you tie it in south of the 63/41 interchange, you have a cemetery, high school and hospital to work around. If you tie it in north of there, you're building a new bridge over the Wabash River.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on July 21, 2021, 09:16:18 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on July 21, 2021, 09:16:18 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on July 21, 2021, 09:13:51 AMQuote from: silverback1065 on July 21, 2021, 09:05:35 AMQuote from: US 41 on July 21, 2021, 09:01:16 AMQuote from: cabiness42 on July 20, 2021, 07:28:02 AMQuote from: I-39 on July 19, 2021, 10:44:29 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on July 19, 2021, 04:50:53 PM
Indiana needed a new terrain four lane highway from Bloomington to Evansville, so it might as well have been a freeway.
No they didn't. No offense, but Evansville is not important enough to justify a full fledged freeway/interstate. I suppose a four lane would have been ok, but if South Bend is not worthy of an Interstate connection to Indianapolis, then Evansville isn't either.
It isn't a matter of comparison between South Bend and Evansville. South Bend already had a four lane highway to Indy. Evansville didn't, so it had to be built. If you're already building a road from scratch, it doesn't cost that much more to make it a freeway.
Evansville did have a 4 lane highway to Indy. US 41 to I-70. 641 was proposed for a long time and was finally complete when it was no longer as useful as it could have been. Still if you live in Vincennes, 41/641/70 is the fastest way to Indianapolis, and it was before they closed 37 in Martinsville.
I think 641 is supposed to eventually tie into SR 63 NW of Terre Haute. if this ever happens INDOT will almost certainly remove all state highways inside terre haute and through them all on the 641 bypass.
Is that realistic though? If you tie it in south of the 63/41 interchange, you have a cemetery, high school and hospital to work around. If you tie it in north of there, you're building a new bridge over the Wabash River.
Those are all the reasons why it may never happen :-D. i just remember seeing maps of the corridor and they all involved the road ending at 63.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: US 41 on July 21, 2021, 09:16:58 AM
Post by: US 41 on July 21, 2021, 09:16:58 AM
I live in Terre Haute and we are not a priority at all in this state. A NE bypass will never happen. There's too much buildup on the north side of town, Rose Hulman is in the way, etc. If they ever build anything it would probably be a bypass around West Terre Haute connecting SR 63 to I-70.
Frankly I think INDOT will eventually just connect US 150 to SR 63 north of the city and call it a day. Then they can hand over 150 through West TH to the county. I don't see us getting any sort of bypass and I question if it's even needed anymore. The area by the mall was the worst part and now our mall is almost dead.
Frankly I think INDOT will eventually just connect US 150 to SR 63 north of the city and call it a day. Then they can hand over 150 through West TH to the county. I don't see us getting any sort of bypass and I question if it's even needed anymore. The area by the mall was the worst part and now our mall is almost dead.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Life in Paradise on July 21, 2021, 01:40:46 PM
Post by: Life in Paradise on July 21, 2021, 01:40:46 PM
Quote from: US 41 on July 21, 2021, 09:16:58 AM
I live in Terre Haute and we are not a priority at all in this state. A NE bypass will never happen. There's too much buildup on the north side of town, Rose Hulman is in the way, etc. If they ever build anything it would probably be a bypass around West Terre Haute connecting SR 63 to I-70.
Frankly I think INDOT will eventually just connect US 150 to SR 63 north of the city and call it a day. Then they can hand over 150 through West TH to the county. I don't see us getting any sort of bypass and I question if it's even needed anymore. The area by the mall was the worst part and now our mall is almost dead.
I can agree with that assessment. My standing joke was when we traveled from the Evansville area to Indianapolis while my kids were in band, show choir, etc in the early 2010s that INDOT had one person working all of the equipment on the IN-641 project, and he just jumped from one piece to another. INDOT didn't want to put more people on the job, and that is why it took forever (5-10 years construction?) to complete. I don't see a completion of the bypass of Terre Haute to IN-63, although the Wabash River bridge wouldn't be as big of a problem as some of the development. It's not like that river is the size of the Ohio.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: SEWIGuy on July 21, 2021, 02:57:30 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on July 21, 2021, 02:57:30 PM
Quote from: US 41 on July 21, 2021, 09:16:58 AM
I live in Terre Haute and we are not a priority at all in this state. A NE bypass will never happen. There's too much buildup on the north side of town, Rose Hulman is in the way, etc. If they ever build anything it would probably be a bypass around West Terre Haute connecting SR 63 to I-70.
Frankly I think INDOT will eventually just connect US 150 to SR 63 north of the city and call it a day. Then they can hand over 150 through West TH to the county. I don't see us getting any sort of bypass and I question if it's even needed anymore. The area by the mall was the worst part and now our mall is almost dead.
I used to live in Terre Haute, and there is a perfectly good reason why it isn't a priority. It is a smallish city in a part of the state declining in population. Bypassing the city north and south would be helpful to those who currently drive through it, but how many people actually do that? I am glad that IN-641 was done, and getting that traffic off US-41 helped, but it always seemed to me that most of that traffic down by the mall was local in nature.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Finrod on July 21, 2021, 03:30:37 PM
Post by: Finrod on July 21, 2021, 03:30:37 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on July 20, 2021, 03:26:56 PM
And due to Kentucky claiming the far bank of the Ohio River as its border back in the day. :P
Technically, Virginia is to blame for that. Kentucky (and West Virginia) used to be part of Virginia before becoming a separate state.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: hbelkins on July 21, 2021, 09:36:15 PM
Post by: hbelkins on July 21, 2021, 09:36:15 PM
Quote from: Finrod on July 21, 2021, 03:30:37 PMQuote from: triplemultiplex on July 20, 2021, 03:26:56 PM
And due to Kentucky claiming the far bank of the Ohio River as its border back in the day. :P
Technically, Virginia is to blame for that. Kentucky (and West Virginia) used to be part of Virginia before becoming a separate state.
Which is also why West Virginia gets to claim the Big Sandy River and its Tug Fork that constitutes the state line between Kentucky and West Virginia. WV was part of VA when KY got statehood, so VA kept the Big Sandy.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: SSR_317 on July 24, 2021, 02:57:26 PM
Post by: SSR_317 on July 24, 2021, 02:57:26 PM
Quote from: Finrod on July 21, 2021, 03:30:37 PMThanks for the history lesson, I never knew that the north bank claim pre-dated Kentucky's statehood (technically, Commonwealthhood)!Quote from: triplemultiplex on July 20, 2021, 03:26:56 PM
And due to Kentucky claiming the far bank of the Ohio River as its border back in the day. :P
Technically, Virginia is to blame for that. Kentucky (and West Virginia) used to be part of Virginia before becoming a separate state.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on August 16, 2021, 05:14:21 PM
Post by: ITB on August 16, 2021, 05:14:21 PM
Don't think this has been mentioned yet. Earlier this month, INDOT let the contract for the Baker's Corner interchange at 236th Street in Hamilton County. HIS Constructors Inc., an Indianapolis firm, with a bid of $20,988,109, was awarded the contract, beating out Milestone Contractors and Rieth Riley Construction, among others.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 16, 2021, 05:48:47 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 16, 2021, 05:48:47 PM
Quote from: ITB on August 16, 2021, 05:14:21 PM
Don't think this has been mentioned yet. Earlier this month, INDOT let the contract for the Baker's Corner interchange at 236th Street in Hamilton County. HIS Constructors Inc., an Indianapolis firm, with a bid of $20,988,109, was awarded the contract, beating out Milestone Contractors and Rieth Riley Construction, among others.
Last time I went that way, I noticed the Speedway/Burger King had been closed. I spent a lot of money at that place over the years.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: bmeiser on August 17, 2021, 01:18:58 PM
Post by: bmeiser on August 17, 2021, 01:18:58 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on August 16, 2021, 05:48:47 PMLast time I went by there, everything but the sign had been demolished. I'll be passing by this weekend. Curious to see if anything else is demolished at that intersection.Quote from: ITB on August 16, 2021, 05:14:21 PM
Don't think this has been mentioned yet. Earlier this month, INDOT let the contract for the Baker's Corner interchange at 236th Street in Hamilton County. HIS Constructors Inc., an Indianapolis firm, with a bid of $20,988,109, was awarded the contract, beating out Milestone Contractors and Rieth Riley Construction, among others.
Last time I went that way, I noticed the Speedway/Burger King had been closed. I spent a lot of money at that place over the years.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: westerninterloper on August 17, 2021, 02:24:18 PM
Post by: westerninterloper on August 17, 2021, 02:24:18 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 21, 2021, 02:57:30 PMQuote from: US 41 on July 21, 2021, 09:16:58 AM
I live in Terre Haute and we are not a priority at all in this state. A NE bypass will never happen. There's too much buildup on the north side of town, Rose Hulman is in the way, etc. If they ever build anything it would probably be a bypass around West Terre Haute connecting SR 63 to I-70.
Frankly I think INDOT will eventually just connect US 150 to SR 63 north of the city and call it a day. Then they can hand over 150 through West TH to the county. I don't see us getting any sort of bypass and I question if it's even needed anymore. The area by the mall was the worst part and now our mall is almost dead.
I used to live in Terre Haute, and there is a perfectly good reason why it isn't a priority. It is a smallish city in a part of the state declining in population. Bypassing the city north and south would be helpful to those who currently drive through it, but how many people actually do that? I am glad that IN-641 was done, and getting that traffic off US-41 helped, but it always seemed to me that most of that traffic down by the mall was local in nature.
I grew up in Terre Haute and remember hearing ideas about a northeast bypass connecting 46 and 63. I don't remember if a new Wabash River bridge was in the cards, or whether the bypass would connect north of Ft Harrison Rd, then back south on 41 to North 63, using the existing bridge.
In the 1980s, the state offered TH money to construct a west-side bypass, from 41/150 near Ivy Tech to 63 North. I recall that the cost of the Wabash River bridge, and Mayor Chalos' concerns about lost business in the city with the bypass ended that idea, but that the railroad overpass on North 3rd street built in the 1980s was one response to the need for traffic to move more quickly through the city.
As for I-69, Terre Haute officials were strongly behind the US 41-I-70 alternative, which would have built a bypass (now 641) and made US 41 limited access to Evansville, not too hard to do. My folks did not like this plan because they live just off US 41 and would have to use access roads and alternative routes to get around or onto the highway. Early in the process, the scope of I-69 was to connect Indianapolis and Evansville, but in the late 1980s, i think, the state recalibrated to only look at connecting Bloomington to Evansville, which sealed the fate of the Terre Haute route.
Terre Haute probably does not need a NE bypass; the through traffic between SR 63 North and I-70 East is probably very small. And there's really nothing on the NE side of Terre Haute that needs a limited access bypass; Fruitridge and Ft. Harrison serve the industrial area well as a NE bypass as it is.
TH has seen a lot of investment in its roads since the mid-1980s; I remember as a kid hearing that there were almost no traffic improvements in the city between the 1940s and 1980s. Since that time, several railroad overpasses, the Brown Ext, SR 641, changes to the Maple Ave/41 interchange, First Street, and Margaret Ave are some of the major developments and reconstructions. most of those are city projects, but I wonder what other investments the city needs from INDOT - a third lane on I-70 would do wonders.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Life in Paradise on August 18, 2021, 12:49:41 PM
Post by: Life in Paradise on August 18, 2021, 12:49:41 PM
Quote from: westerninterloper on August 17, 2021, 02:24:18 PMI would agree that the third lane on I-70 is long, long overdue. It almost could be six lanes all the way to Indianapolis. With the construction of I-69 as well as the final completion of IN-641, I've noticed anytime that I have driven to Terre Haute that the traffic on US41 south of I-70 has been much more bearable. Sounds like the mayor of Terre Haute had a bit of the spirit of the city fathers of Evansville back in the 60s when US 41 was planned with traffic lights so travelers could easily get on and off the road to spend money in Stoplight City (construction phase in early 70s).Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 21, 2021, 02:57:30 PMQuote from: US 41 on July 21, 2021, 09:16:58 AM
I live in Terre Haute and we are not a priority at all in this state. A NE bypass will never happen. There's too much buildup on the north side of town, Rose Hulman is in the way, etc. If they ever build anything it would probably be a bypass around West Terre Haute connecting SR 63 to I-70.
Frankly I think INDOT will eventually just connect US 150 to SR 63 north of the city and call it a day. Then they can hand over 150 through West TH to the county. I don't see us getting any sort of bypass and I question if it's even needed anymore. The area by the mall was the worst part and now our mall is almost dead.
I used to live in Terre Haute, and there is a perfectly good reason why it isn't a priority. It is a smallish city in a part of the state declining in population. Bypassing the city north and south would be helpful to those who currently drive through it, but how many people actually do that? I am glad that IN-641 was done, and getting that traffic off US-41 helped, but it always seemed to me that most of that traffic down by the mall was local in nature.
I grew up in Terre Haute and remember hearing ideas about a northeast bypass connecting 46 and 63. I don't remember if a new Wabash River bridge was in the cards, or whether the bypass would connect north of Ft Harrison Rd, then back south on 41 to North 63, using the existing bridge.
In the 1980s, the state offered TH money to construct a west-side bypass, from 41/150 near Ivy Tech to 63 North. I recall that the cost of the Wabash River bridge, and Mayor Chalos' concerns about lost business in the city with the bypass ended that idea, but that the railroad overpass on North 3rd street built in the 1980s was one response to the need for traffic to move more quickly through the city.
As for I-69, Terre Haute officials were strongly behind the US 41-I-70 alternative, which would have built a bypass (now 641) and made US 41 limited access to Evansville, not too hard to do. My folks did not like this plan because they live just off US 41 and would have to use access roads and alternative routes to get around or onto the highway. Early in the process, the scope of I-69 was to connect Indianapolis and Evansville, but in the late 1980s, i think, the state recalibrated to only look at connecting Bloomington to Evansville, which sealed the fate of the Terre Haute route.
Terre Haute probably does not need a NE bypass; the through traffic between SR 63 North and I-70 East is probably very small. And there's really nothing on the NE side of Terre Haute that needs a limited access bypass; Fruitridge and Ft. Harrison serve the industrial area well as a NE bypass as it is.
TH has seen a lot of investment in its roads since the mid-1980s; I remember as a kid hearing that there were almost no traffic improvements in the city between the 1940s and 1980s. Since that time, several railroad overpasses, the Brown Ext, SR 641, changes to the Maple Ave/41 interchange, First Street, and Margaret Ave are some of the major developments and reconstructions. most of those are city projects, but I wonder what other investments the city needs from INDOT - a third lane on I-70 would do wonders.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on August 18, 2021, 10:30:21 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on August 18, 2021, 10:30:21 PM
INDOT wants to widen it to 6 lanes throughout the whole state. 65 and 70 are the only 2 that they plan on doing this to (80, 90, and 94 I am not counting on this list) 74 and 69 will never likely need that kind of widening.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Terry Shea on August 18, 2021, 10:38:41 PM
Post by: Terry Shea on August 18, 2021, 10:38:41 PM
What does any of this have to do with US-31 upgrades?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: SEWIGuy on August 19, 2021, 05:39:44 AM
Post by: SEWIGuy on August 19, 2021, 05:39:44 AM
Quote from: westerninterloper on August 17, 2021, 02:24:18 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on July 21, 2021, 02:57:30 PMQuote from: US 41 on July 21, 2021, 09:16:58 AM
I live in Terre Haute and we are not a priority at all in this state. A NE bypass will never happen. There's too much buildup on the north side of town, Rose Hulman is in the way, etc. If they ever build anything it would probably be a bypass around West Terre Haute connecting SR 63 to I-70.
Frankly I think INDOT will eventually just connect US 150 to SR 63 north of the city and call it a day. Then they can hand over 150 through West TH to the county. I don't see us getting any sort of bypass and I question if it's even needed anymore. The area by the mall was the worst part and now our mall is almost dead.
I used to live in Terre Haute, and there is a perfectly good reason why it isn't a priority. It is a smallish city in a part of the state declining in population. Bypassing the city north and south would be helpful to those who currently drive through it, but how many people actually do that? I am glad that IN-641 was done, and getting that traffic off US-41 helped, but it always seemed to me that most of that traffic down by the mall was local in nature.
I grew up in Terre Haute and remember hearing ideas about a northeast bypass connecting 46 and 63. I don't remember if a new Wabash River bridge was in the cards, or whether the bypass would connect north of Ft Harrison Rd, then back south on 41 to North 63, using the existing bridge.
In the 1980s, the state offered TH money to construct a west-side bypass, from 41/150 near Ivy Tech to 63 North. I recall that the cost of the Wabash River bridge, and Mayor Chalos' concerns about lost business in the city with the bypass ended that idea, but that the railroad overpass on North 3rd street built in the 1980s was one response to the need for traffic to move more quickly through the city.
As for I-69, Terre Haute officials were strongly behind the US 41-I-70 alternative, which would have built a bypass (now 641) and made US 41 limited access to Evansville, not too hard to do. My folks did not like this plan because they live just off US 41 and would have to use access roads and alternative routes to get around or onto the highway. Early in the process, the scope of I-69 was to connect Indianapolis and Evansville, but in the late 1980s, i think, the state recalibrated to only look at connecting Bloomington to Evansville, which sealed the fate of the Terre Haute route.
Terre Haute probably does not need a NE bypass; the through traffic between SR 63 North and I-70 East is probably very small. And there's really nothing on the NE side of Terre Haute that needs a limited access bypass; Fruitridge and Ft. Harrison serve the industrial area well as a NE bypass as it is.
TH has seen a lot of investment in its roads since the mid-1980s; I remember as a kid hearing that there were almost no traffic improvements in the city between the 1940s and 1980s. Since that time, several railroad overpasses, the Brown Ext, SR 641, changes to the Maple Ave/41 interchange, First Street, and Margaret Ave are some of the major developments and reconstructions. most of those are city projects, but I wonder what other investments the city needs from INDOT - a third lane on I-70 would do wonders.
Thank you for this! Not only informative, but made me smile recognizing some of the street names from my time there over 25 years ago. And Mayor Chalos!
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-55 on August 19, 2021, 12:23:28 PM
Post by: I-55 on August 19, 2021, 12:23:28 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on August 18, 2021, 10:38:41 PM
What does any of this have to do with US-31 upgrades?
Places INDOT is likely to spend their money before making more significant upgrades (like making it a freeway) to US-31. INDOT has expressed more interest in those projects than 31.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on August 19, 2021, 06:15:01 PM
Post by: sparker on August 19, 2021, 06:15:01 PM
Quote from: I-55 on August 19, 2021, 12:23:28 PMQuote from: Terry Shea on August 18, 2021, 10:38:41 PM
What does any of this have to do with US-31 upgrades?
Places INDOT is likely to spend their money before making more significant upgrades (like making it a freeway) to US-31. INDOT has expressed more interest in those projects than 31.
But yet they continue to eke out freeway mileage from Indy to Kokomo. It's the sections with a lot of intersections and private access between Kokomo and Plymouth that are putting INDOT in a tight spot -- their smaller-scale fixes (the J-turn approach in particular) don't seem to be flying with the locals; it seems that either going all-out as a full freeway or simply leaving it as is for the time being may be the only options here. If, as you suggest, INDOT has priorities lying elsewhere, then it's likely that internal pressures for some type of "free flow" (hence the problematic J-turn/RIRO option) will simply dissipate and things north of Kokomo will remain static until there's sufficient funds -- and agency bandwidth -- to fully build out US 31 as a full freeway.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: bmeiser on August 19, 2021, 10:10:59 PM
Post by: bmeiser on August 19, 2021, 10:10:59 PM
Quote from: sparker on August 19, 2021, 06:15:01 PMI would MUCH rather things stay the way they are now than money be wasted on a temporary "fix" . Prioritize intersections that need interchanges by traffic counts / safety concerns, etc and build as funds allow. Buy up properties with driveways along the route as they go up for sale, like in Tipton county.Quote from: I-55 on August 19, 2021, 12:23:28 PMQuote from: Terry Shea on August 18, 2021, 10:38:41 PM
What does any of this have to do with US-31 upgrades?
Places INDOT is likely to spend their money before making more significant upgrades (like making it a freeway) to US-31. INDOT has expressed more interest in those projects than 31.
But yet they continue to eke out freeway mileage from Indy to Kokomo. It's the sections with a lot of intersections and private access between Kokomo and Plymouth that are putting INDOT in a tight spot -- their smaller-scale fixes (the J-turn approach in particular) don't seem to be flying with the locals; it seems that either going all-out as a full freeway or simply leaving it as is for the time being may be the only options here. If, as you suggest, INDOT has priorities lying elsewhere, then it's likely that internal pressures for some type of "free flow" (hence the problematic J-turn/RIRO option) will simply dissipate and things north of Kokomo will remain static until there's sufficient funds -- and agency bandwidth -- to fully build out US 31 as a full freeway.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-55 on August 20, 2021, 04:22:36 PM
Post by: I-55 on August 20, 2021, 04:22:36 PM
Quote from: sparker on August 19, 2021, 06:15:01 PMQuote from: I-55 on August 19, 2021, 12:23:28 PMQuote from: Terry Shea on August 18, 2021, 10:38:41 PM
What does any of this have to do with US-31 upgrades?
Places INDOT is likely to spend their money before making more significant upgrades (like making it a freeway) to US-31. INDOT has expressed more interest in those projects than 31.
But yet they continue to eke out freeway mileage from Indy to Kokomo. It's the sections with a lot of intersections and private access between Kokomo and Plymouth that are putting INDOT in a tight spot -- their smaller-scale fixes (the J-turn approach in particular) don't seem to be flying with the locals; it seems that either going all-out as a full freeway or simply leaving it as is for the time being may be the only options here. If, as you suggest, INDOT has priorities lying elsewhere, then it's likely that internal pressures for some type of "free flow" (hence the problematic J-turn/RIRO option) will simply dissipate and things north of Kokomo will remain static until there's sufficient funds -- and agency bandwidth -- to fully build out US 31 as a full freeway.
The J-turns were so unpopular that they ruled them out for US-30 upgrades (in Allen County at least).
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 23, 2021, 08:49:52 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 23, 2021, 08:49:52 AM
Quote from: sparker on August 19, 2021, 06:15:01 PMQuote from: I-55 on August 19, 2021, 12:23:28 PMQuote from: Terry Shea on August 18, 2021, 10:38:41 PM
What does any of this have to do with US-31 upgrades?
Places INDOT is likely to spend their money before making more significant upgrades (like making it a freeway) to US-31. INDOT has expressed more interest in those projects than 31.
But yet they continue to eke out freeway mileage from Indy to Kokomo. It's the sections with a lot of intersections and private access between Kokomo and Plymouth that are putting INDOT in a tight spot -- their smaller-scale fixes (the J-turn approach in particular) don't seem to be flying with the locals; it seems that either going all-out as a full freeway or simply leaving it as is for the time being may be the only options here. If, as you suggest, INDOT has priorities lying elsewhere, then it's likely that internal pressures for some type of "free flow" (hence the problematic J-turn/RIRO option) will simply dissipate and things north of Kokomo will remain static until there's sufficient funds -- and agency bandwidth -- to fully build out US 31 as a full freeway.
"Doesn't fly with the locals" is not high on my list of reasons not to do something. The J-turns are fine. They accomplish the goal of making a non-stop trip possible without diverting funds from projects that are more necessary than having a full freeway between Plymouth and Kokomo.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on August 23, 2021, 09:57:55 AM
Post by: sparker on August 23, 2021, 09:57:55 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on August 23, 2021, 08:49:52 AMQuote from: sparker on August 19, 2021, 06:15:01 PMQuote from: I-55 on August 19, 2021, 12:23:28 PMQuote from: Terry Shea on August 18, 2021, 10:38:41 PM
What does any of this have to do with US-31 upgrades?
Places INDOT is likely to spend their money before making more significant upgrades (like making it a freeway) to US-31. INDOT has expressed more interest in those projects than 31.
But yet they continue to eke out freeway mileage from Indy to Kokomo. It's the sections with a lot of intersections and private access between Kokomo and Plymouth that are putting INDOT in a tight spot -- their smaller-scale fixes (the J-turn approach in particular) don't seem to be flying with the locals; it seems that either going all-out as a full freeway or simply leaving it as is for the time being may be the only options here. If, as you suggest, INDOT has priorities lying elsewhere, then it's likely that internal pressures for some type of "free flow" (hence the problematic J-turn/RIRO option) will simply dissipate and things north of Kokomo will remain static until there's sufficient funds -- and agency bandwidth -- to fully build out US 31 as a full freeway.
"Doesn't fly with the locals" is not high on my list of reasons not to do something. The J-turns are fine. They accomplish the goal of making a non-stop trip possible without diverting funds from projects that are more necessary than having a full freeway between Plymouth and Kokomo.
OK, INDOT is in the process of making 31 a full freeway from Indy to Kokomo; they did so Plymouth-South Bend years ago. Why should those residing in between not be afforded equal treatment? From one who has endured J-turns and/or Michigan Lefts in various venues, they are at minimum a PITA and at worst a dangerous proposition -- two instances of having to pull out into traffic, one into a left lane, plus a stop and a hard right (all right, a little ameliorated if a dedicated RH turn lane is provided!) -- all to provide through traffic from Indy to South Bend a "free flow" experience sans those signals which provided safe passage across the corridor to those "locals". Obviously, the only way to actually solve the issues is to do what was originally stated years ago as the plans for the 31 corridor -- an Interstate-grade freeway for the full distance. Yeah, it'll take a bit more time than slapping a "band-aid" on the problem and declaring it solved, but absent an influx of dollars that would allow multiple statewide projects to be tackled simultaneously (or even within the same STIP period!), it's the rational way to do things. Sometime going into overtime is a better approach than constantly moving the goalposts just to give the impression that one is actually addressing the problems. I'll use CA's approach with CA (formerly US) 99 as an example -- the first actual freeway section from greater L.A. to Sacramento, the Manteca bypass, was built in 1952 -- but while originally the selected route for I-5, that status was removed with that Interstate's relocation to a new-alignment freeway in 1957; by then, only a few towns (Delano, Tulare, Chowchilla, etc.) had freeway bypasses -- and that precious 90% federal share was shifted westward to the new facility. So the 99 improvements proceeded one by one until 66 years after originally started -- with the 2018 full opening of the south Merced County section -- the freeway was completed (the parallel I-5 was done through the region by 1981). A decidedly long haul -- but for 299 miles the local populations have safe -- and frequent -- passage across and onto the 99 corridor. The question arises -- do the folks between Kokomo and Plymouth deserve less?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 23, 2021, 10:37:26 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 23, 2021, 10:37:26 AM
Quote from: sparker on August 23, 2021, 09:57:55 AMQuote from: cabiness42 on August 23, 2021, 08:49:52 AMQuote from: sparker on August 19, 2021, 06:15:01 PMQuote from: I-55 on August 19, 2021, 12:23:28 PMQuote from: Terry Shea on August 18, 2021, 10:38:41 PM
What does any of this have to do with US-31 upgrades?
Places INDOT is likely to spend their money before making more significant upgrades (like making it a freeway) to US-31. INDOT has expressed more interest in those projects than 31.
But yet they continue to eke out freeway mileage from Indy to Kokomo. It's the sections with a lot of intersections and private access between Kokomo and Plymouth that are putting INDOT in a tight spot -- their smaller-scale fixes (the J-turn approach in particular) don't seem to be flying with the locals; it seems that either going all-out as a full freeway or simply leaving it as is for the time being may be the only options here. If, as you suggest, INDOT has priorities lying elsewhere, then it's likely that internal pressures for some type of "free flow" (hence the problematic J-turn/RIRO option) will simply dissipate and things north of Kokomo will remain static until there's sufficient funds -- and agency bandwidth -- to fully build out US 31 as a full freeway.
"Doesn't fly with the locals" is not high on my list of reasons not to do something. The J-turns are fine. They accomplish the goal of making a non-stop trip possible without diverting funds from projects that are more necessary than having a full freeway between Plymouth and Kokomo.
OK, INDOT is in the process of making 31 a full freeway from Indy to Kokomo; they did so Plymouth-South Bend years ago. Why should those residing in between not be afforded equal treatment? From one who has endured J-turns and/or Michigan Lefts in various venues, they are at minimum a PITA and at worst a dangerous proposition -- two instances of having to pull out into traffic, one into a left lane, plus a stop and a hard right (all right, a little ameliorated if a dedicated RH turn lane is provided!) -- all to provide through traffic from Indy to South Bend a "free flow" experience sans those signals which provided safe passage across the corridor to those "locals". Obviously, the only way to actually solve the issues is to do what was originally stated years ago as the plans for the 31 corridor -- an Interstate-grade freeway for the full distance. Yeah, it'll take a bit more time than slapping a "band-aid" on the problem and declaring it solved, but absent an influx of dollars that would allow multiple statewide projects to be tackled simultaneously (or even within the same STIP period!), it's the rational way to do things. Sometime going into overtime is a better approach than constantly moving the goalposts just to give the impression that one is actually addressing the problems. I'll use CA's approach with CA (formerly US) 99 as an example -- the first actual freeway section from greater L.A. to Sacramento, the Manteca bypass, was built in 1952 -- but while originally the selected route for I-5, that status was removed with that Interstate's relocation to a new-alignment freeway in 1957; by then, only a few towns (Delano, Tulare, Chowchilla, etc.) had freeway bypasses -- and that precious 90% federal share was shifted westward to the new facility. So the 99 improvements proceeded one by one until 66 years after originally started -- with the 2018 full opening of the south Merced County section -- the freeway was completed (the parallel I-5 was done through the region by 1981). A decidedly long haul -- but for 299 miles the local populations have safe -- and frequent -- passage across and onto the 99 corridor. The question arises -- do the folks between Kokomo and Plymouth deserve less?
You're talking about a limited pie of highway dollars and diverting a substantial share of it to an area with lower traffic volumes and accident rates compared to things like expanding 65 and 70 to six lanes in spots with much higher traffic volumes and accident rates, so it's not about what people of one particular area deserve, it's about what creates the most safety with the money that's available.
Now, if J-turns are truly less safe than stoplights, then I would agree let's not do them and wait until it can be done better.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on August 23, 2021, 10:56:56 AM
Post by: tdindy88 on August 23, 2021, 10:56:56 AM
At the very minimum something should be done with US 31 from Kokomo to Peru. From just north of US 24 to Plymouth could remain exactly as it is for a long time. Just bump up the speed limit. There's almost nothing along that stretch that even needs a J-turn intersection, let alone an interchange. Maybe an exit at SR 10 and a bridge over the railroad near Plymouth, that's it.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 11:03:31 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 11:03:31 AM
^ First, the legislature needs to amend state law to permit 65 mph or 70 mph posted speed limits on non-limited-access highways, and 70 mph on limited access highways not designated interstate highways.
Which, IMO, needs to happen regardless. There's no excuse to still be sticking with artificially low, slogging 60 mph limits that currently exist.
That would improve the situation though, in the short term. Upgrade areas that need it (high volume intersections) with true interchange / freeway designs, then leave the rural, non-problematic areas be for the time being, with a freeway speed limit in place.
Which, IMO, needs to happen regardless. There's no excuse to still be sticking with artificially low, slogging 60 mph limits that currently exist.
That would improve the situation though, in the short term. Upgrade areas that need it (high volume intersections) with true interchange / freeway designs, then leave the rural, non-problematic areas be for the time being, with a freeway speed limit in place.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sparker on August 23, 2021, 12:54:12 PM
Post by: sparker on August 23, 2021, 12:54:12 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on August 23, 2021, 10:37:26 AM
You're talking about a limited pie of highway dollars and diverting a substantial share of it to an area with lower traffic volumes and accident rates compared to things like expanding 65 and 70 to six lanes in spots with much higher traffic volumes and accident rates, so it's not about what people of one particular area deserve, it's about what creates the most safety with the money that's available.
Now, if J-turns are truly less safe than stoplights, then I would agree let's not do them and wait until it can be done better.
That's more or less what I was saying -- don't do anything with 31 beyond what's in the Indy-Kokomo hopper immediately -- but don't spend money on half-assed solutions either! Unless there's pressing safety issues, just leave the corridor as is until there's available money to provide a final and permanent configuration. If I-65 and I-70 need to be expanded to 6 lanes, then by all means do that first -- then address upgrading US 31 to a freeway as funding allows; if that's a piece at a time, then that's what needs to occur. But IMO the most difficult (Kokomo to US 24) section should be prioritized if for no reason than to minimize inflation-related construction cost increases for the segment requiring the more comprehensive treatment; the northern sections with less private access issues and better geometry can be addressed down the road.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on August 23, 2021, 05:34:52 PM
Post by: I-39 on August 23, 2021, 05:34:52 PM
Quote from: sparker on August 23, 2021, 12:54:12 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on August 23, 2021, 10:37:26 AM
You're talking about a limited pie of highway dollars and diverting a substantial share of it to an area with lower traffic volumes and accident rates compared to things like expanding 65 and 70 to six lanes in spots with much higher traffic volumes and accident rates, so it's not about what people of one particular area deserve, it's about what creates the most safety with the money that's available.
Now, if J-turns are truly less safe than stoplights, then I would agree let's not do them and wait until it can be done better.
That's more or less what I was saying -- don't do anything with 31 beyond what's in the Indy-Kokomo hopper immediately -- but don't spend money on half-assed solutions either! Unless there's pressing safety issues, just leave the corridor as is until there's available money to provide a final and permanent configuration. If I-65 and I-70 need to be expanded to 6 lanes, then by all means do that first -- then address upgrading US 31 to a freeway as funding allows; if that's a piece at a time, then that's what needs to occur. But IMO the most difficult (Kokomo to US 24) section should be prioritized if for no reason than to minimize inflation-related construction cost increases for the segment requiring the more comprehensive treatment; the northern sections with less private access issues and better geometry can be addressed down the road.
Excellent point. InDOT is being incredibly hypocritical here. I'm by no means gung ho about upgrading US 31 between South Bend and Indianapolis, but I'll ask again, why should they deny South Bend a freeway link when the other corners of the state have them?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 23, 2021, 05:52:22 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 23, 2021, 05:52:22 PM
Quote from: I-39 on August 23, 2021, 05:34:52 PMQuote from: sparker on August 23, 2021, 12:54:12 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on August 23, 2021, 10:37:26 AM
You're talking about a limited pie of highway dollars and diverting a substantial share of it to an area with lower traffic volumes and accident rates compared to things like expanding 65 and 70 to six lanes in spots with much higher traffic volumes and accident rates, so it's not about what people of one particular area deserve, it's about what creates the most safety with the money that's available.
Now, if J-turns are truly less safe than stoplights, then I would agree let's not do them and wait until it can be done better.
That's more or less what I was saying -- don't do anything with 31 beyond what's in the Indy-Kokomo hopper immediately -- but don't spend money on half-assed solutions either! Unless there's pressing safety issues, just leave the corridor as is until there's available money to provide a final and permanent configuration. If I-65 and I-70 need to be expanded to 6 lanes, then by all means do that first -- then address upgrading US 31 to a freeway as funding allows; if that's a piece at a time, then that's what needs to occur. But IMO the most difficult (Kokomo to US 24) section should be prioritized if for no reason than to minimize inflation-related construction cost increases for the segment requiring the more comprehensive treatment; the northern sections with less private access issues and better geometry can be addressed down the road.
Excellent point. InDOT is being incredibly hypocritical here. I'm by no means gung ho about upgrading US 31 between South Bend and Indianapolis, but I'll ask again, why should they deny South Bend a freeway link when the other corners of the state have them?
I don't think most people care about freeway vs non-freeway. Your average driver driving south from South Bend probably doesn't notice a significant change to the highway once they pass Plymouth. There is a very good 4 lane highway that for the most part is not unsafe and not slowing down traffic.
INDOT isn't being hypocritical if they're focusing their money where most accidents occur.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on August 23, 2021, 05:56:56 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on August 23, 2021, 05:56:56 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 11:03:31 AMThere should be no state law. Let indot figure it out.
^ First, the legislature needs to amend state law to permit 65 mph or 70 mph posted speed limits on non-limited-access highways, and 70 mph on limited access highways not designated interstate highways.
Which, IMO, needs to happen regardless. There's no excuse to still be sticking with artificially low, slogging 60 mph limits that currently exist.
That would improve the situation though, in the short term. Upgrade areas that need it (high volume intersections) with true interchange / freeway designs, then leave the rural, non-problematic areas be for the time being, with a freeway speed limit in place.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 08:00:15 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 08:00:15 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on August 23, 2021, 05:52:22 PMI've said it before, a big difference would be made if motorists were allowed to travel the same speed as on the interstate. 70 mph. Freeway or non-freeway.Quote from: I-39 on August 23, 2021, 05:34:52 PMQuote from: sparker on August 23, 2021, 12:54:12 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on August 23, 2021, 10:37:26 AM
You're talking about a limited pie of highway dollars and diverting a substantial share of it to an area with lower traffic volumes and accident rates compared to things like expanding 65 and 70 to six lanes in spots with much higher traffic volumes and accident rates, so it's not about what people of one particular area deserve, it's about what creates the most safety with the money that's available.
Now, if J-turns are truly less safe than stoplights, then I would agree let's not do them and wait until it can be done better.
That's more or less what I was saying -- don't do anything with 31 beyond what's in the Indy-Kokomo hopper immediately -- but don't spend money on half-assed solutions either! Unless there's pressing safety issues, just leave the corridor as is until there's available money to provide a final and permanent configuration. If I-65 and I-70 need to be expanded to 6 lanes, then by all means do that first -- then address upgrading US 31 to a freeway as funding allows; if that's a piece at a time, then that's what needs to occur. But IMO the most difficult (Kokomo to US 24) section should be prioritized if for no reason than to minimize inflation-related construction cost increases for the segment requiring the more comprehensive treatment; the northern sections with less private access issues and better geometry can be addressed down the road.
Excellent point. InDOT is being incredibly hypocritical here. I'm by no means gung ho about upgrading US 31 between South Bend and Indianapolis, but I'll ask again, why should they deny South Bend a freeway link when the other corners of the state have them?
I don't think most people care about freeway vs non-freeway. Your average driver driving south from South Bend probably doesn't notice a significant change to the highway once they pass Plymouth. There is a very good 4 lane highway that for the most part is not unsafe and not slowing down traffic.
INDOT isn't being hypocritical if they're focusing their money where most accidents occur.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: cjw2001 on September 21, 2021, 02:37:02 PM
Post by: cjw2001 on September 21, 2021, 02:37:02 PM
INDOT to Host Public Meeting on U.S. 31 project in Hamilton County
HAMILTON COUNTY, Ind. - The Indiana Department of Transportation will host a public meeting on the Limited Access Project on U.S. 31 in Hamilton County.
The project is on U.S. 31 from State Road 38 to 286th Street.
The meeting will be held on Tuesday, September 28th at the Remnant Coffee Shop (101 W. Main Street, Arcadia, IN). There will be an open house from 5-6 p.m. with a formal presentation from 6-6:30 p.m. The public will have a chance to provide public comment after the formal presentation.
The purpose of the public hearing is to offer all interested persons an opportunity to comment on the environmental document, the 800.11(e) documentation for Section 106, and the current preliminary design plans for the U.S. 31 Limited Access Project in Hamilton County.
The purpose of this project is to reduce traffic accidents along US 31 while maintaining local access by providing interchanges and overpasses at select locations.
https://www.in.gov/indot/projects/us-31-project/us-31-limited-access-upgrade-from-sr-38-to-286th-street/
HAMILTON COUNTY, Ind. - The Indiana Department of Transportation will host a public meeting on the Limited Access Project on U.S. 31 in Hamilton County.
The project is on U.S. 31 from State Road 38 to 286th Street.
The meeting will be held on Tuesday, September 28th at the Remnant Coffee Shop (101 W. Main Street, Arcadia, IN). There will be an open house from 5-6 p.m. with a formal presentation from 6-6:30 p.m. The public will have a chance to provide public comment after the formal presentation.
The purpose of the public hearing is to offer all interested persons an opportunity to comment on the environmental document, the 800.11(e) documentation for Section 106, and the current preliminary design plans for the U.S. 31 Limited Access Project in Hamilton County.
The purpose of this project is to reduce traffic accidents along US 31 while maintaining local access by providing interchanges and overpasses at select locations.
https://www.in.gov/indot/projects/us-31-project/us-31-limited-access-upgrade-from-sr-38-to-286th-street/
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on September 21, 2021, 02:40:15 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on September 21, 2021, 02:40:15 PM
Quote from: cjw2001 on September 21, 2021, 02:37:02 PM
INDOT to Host Public Meeting on U.S. 31 project in Hamilton County
HAMILTON COUNTY, Ind. - The Indiana Department of Transportation will host a public meeting on the Limited Access Project on U.S. 31 in Hamilton County.
The project is on U.S. 31 from State Road 38 to 286th Street.
The meeting will be held on Tuesday, September 28th at the Remnant Coffee Shop (101 W. Main Street, Arcadia, IN). There will be an open house from 5-6 p.m. with a formal presentation from 6-6:30 p.m. The public will have a chance to provide public comment after the formal presentation.
The purpose of the public hearing is to offer all interested persons an opportunity to comment on the environmental document, the 800.11(e) documentation for Section 106, and the current preliminary design plans for the U.S. 31 Limited Access Project in Hamilton County.
The purpose of this project is to reduce traffic accidents along US 31 while maintaining local access by providing interchanges and overpasses at select locations.
https://www.in.gov/indot/projects/us-31-project/us-31-limited-access-upgrade-from-sr-38-to-286th-street/
Interested in what will happen at 296th St. that cemetery will make things difficult. don't like the idea of a RIRO at 286th, but I bet that is temporary.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on September 21, 2021, 06:45:29 PM
Post by: I-39 on September 21, 2021, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on September 21, 2021, 02:40:15 PMQuote from: cjw2001 on September 21, 2021, 02:37:02 PM
INDOT to Host Public Meeting on U.S. 31 project in Hamilton County
HAMILTON COUNTY, Ind. - The Indiana Department of Transportation will host a public meeting on the Limited Access Project on U.S. 31 in Hamilton County.
The project is on U.S. 31 from State Road 38 to 286th Street.
The meeting will be held on Tuesday, September 28th at the Remnant Coffee Shop (101 W. Main Street, Arcadia, IN). There will be an open house from 5-6 p.m. with a formal presentation from 6-6:30 p.m. The public will have a chance to provide public comment after the formal presentation.
The purpose of the public hearing is to offer all interested persons an opportunity to comment on the environmental document, the 800.11(e) documentation for Section 106, and the current preliminary design plans for the U.S. 31 Limited Access Project in Hamilton County.
The purpose of this project is to reduce traffic accidents along US 31 while maintaining local access by providing interchanges and overpasses at select locations.
https://www.in.gov/indot/projects/us-31-project/us-31-limited-access-upgrade-from-sr-38-to-286th-street/
Interested in what will happen at 296th St. that cemetery will make things difficult. don't like the idea of a RIRO at 286th, but I bet that is temporary.
The never ending saga of the US 31 upgrade continues.
Seriously, just finish the freeway between Indianapolis and Kokomo and leave the rest alone for now. They need to finish widening I-65 between Indianapolis and Kentucky.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on September 21, 2021, 07:00:10 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on September 21, 2021, 07:00:10 PM
Oh it should be just another year or so until they finally get around to planning the rest of US 31 up to Kokomo. They're just "studying" it until they somehow find the money to build the exit at Division Road. Considering that INDOT was already thinking of building that exit if Tipton County took over one of their state highways (which they didn't) the movement is there to complete the corridor.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on September 25, 2021, 06:29:04 PM
Post by: I-39 on September 25, 2021, 06:29:04 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on September 21, 2021, 07:00:10 PM
Oh it should be just another year or so until they finally get around to planning the rest of US 31 up to Kokomo. They're just "studying" it until they somehow find the money to build the exit at Division Road. Considering that INDOT was already thinking of building that exit if Tipton County took over one of their state highways (which they didn't) the movement is there to complete the corridor.
I'll believe it when I see it.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: SSR_317 on November 06, 2021, 03:35:50 PM
Post by: SSR_317 on November 06, 2021, 03:35:50 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 18, 2021, 10:30:21 PMI respectfully disagree with the opinion you express in the second sentence.
INDOT wants to widen it to 6 lanes throughout the whole state. 65 and 70 are the only 2 that they plan on doing this to (80, 90, and 94 I am not counting on this list) 74 and 69 will never likely need that kind of widening.
I-69 (Classic) between Anderson and Fort Wayne certainly needs to be 6 lanes wide, as soon as possible, though finishing the statewide 6-laning of I-65 and I-70 should rightfully take precedence. North of the Summit City, it MIGHT need an extension of the existing 6-lane segment, at least as far as Auburn. "New" I-69 (southern IN) will likely never need 6-laning (or at least not for several decades), beyond what is already planned for the south side of Indy.
As for I-74, it might need full 6-laning between Indy & Ohio (Cincy) at some point in the future, though not in the near-term.
But to bring this back on topic, yes, I am of the opinion that US 31 needs to be built, as a FULL FREEWAY (and designated as I-67) all the way from Carmel to Michigan, and this should be done ASAP. It is the "missing link" in Indiana's freeway system, now that I-69 is about to be completed to KY.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on November 06, 2021, 10:56:09 PM
Post by: mukade on November 06, 2021, 10:56:09 PM
Quote from: SSR_317 on November 06, 2021, 03:35:50 PMQuote from: silverback1065 on August 18, 2021, 10:30:21 PMI respectfully disagree with the opinion you express in the second sentence.
INDOT wants to widen it to 6 lanes throughout the whole state. 65 and 70 are the only 2 that they plan on doing this to (80, 90, and 94 I am not counting on this list) 74 and 69 will never likely need that kind of widening.
I-69 (Classic) between Anderson and Fort Wayne certainly needs to be 6 lanes wide, as soon as possible, though finishing the statewide 6-laning of I-65 and I-70 should rightfully take precedence. North of the Summit City, it MIGHT need an extension of the existing 6-lane segment, at least as far as Auburn. "New" I-69 (southern IN) will likely never need 6-laning (or at least not for several decades), beyond what is already planned for the south side of Indy.
Rather than saying I-65 and I-70 should get widened to 6 lanes before any other freeways, I would prioritize by traffic volume - and what the busiest sections are might surprise you. The top 15 busiest 4 lane sections include five on I-265, three on I-69 and one on I-74 as shown in the top 25 table below.
| Rank | Location | AADT |
| 1 | I-265 between Grant Line Rd and Charlestown Rd | 63,118 |
| 2 | I-265 between I-64 and State St (New Albany) | 61,532 |
| 3 | I-265 between Charlestown Rd and I-65 (Clarksville) | 59,997 |
| 4 | I-265 between State St and Grant Line Rd (New Albany) | 56,431 |
| 5 | I-70 between SR 39 and SR 267 (Plainfield-Monrovia) | 48,934 |
| 6 | SR-265 between I-65 and SR 62 (Jeffersonville) | 47,876 |
| 7 | I-65 between 71st St and I-465 (Indianapolis) | 46,632 |
| 8 | I-65 between SR 252 and SR 44 | 44,992 |
| 9 | I-65 between US 31 and SR 252 | 43,614 |
| 10 | I-69 between SR 1 and Union Chapel (Fort Wayne) | 43,004 |
| 11 | I-65 between Memphis and SR 160 | 42,003 |
| 12 | I-69 between SR 9/SR 109 and Daleville | 41,701 |
| 13 | I-65 between SR 10 and SR 2 | 39,527 |
| 14 | I-74 between Post Rd and I-465 (Indianapolis) | 39,089 |
| 15 | I-69 between Airport Expy and Jefferson St. (Fort Wayne) | 38,921 |
| 16 | I-65 between SR 47 and SR 28 | 38,787 |
| 17 | I-70 between SR 46 and US 41 (Terre Haute) | 38,655 |
| 18 | I-70 between SR 109 and SR 3 | 37,989 |
| 19 | I-65 between SR 28 and SR 38 | 37,885 |
| 20 | I-70 between Centerville exit and US 35 | 37,661 |
| 21 | I-70 between SR 9 and SR 109 | 37,584 |
| 22 | I-65 between SR 160 and US 31 | 37,384 |
| 23 | I-70 between US 27 and SR 227 (Richmond) | 37,332 |
| 24 | I-70 between US 231 and SR 39 | 36,650 |
| 25 | I-65 between SR 114 and SR 14 | 36,441 |
I-64 between SR 64 and I-265 is three lanes westbound and two lanes eastbound (assuming Google Maps is current). The section from US 150 to I-265 carries a volume of 66,571 (which would rank it #1) and the section from SR 64 to US 150 carries a volume of 39,059.
On the comment on the need for 6 lanes on the extension of I-69, remember that through Bloomington it already has six lanes.
Quote
As for I-74, it might need full 6-laning between Indy & Ohio (Cincy) at some point in the future, though not in the near-term.
Actually, the traffic volume is pretty low on I-74.
Quote
But to bring this back on topic, yes, I am of the opinion that US 31 needs to be built, as a FULL FREEWAY (and designated as I-67) all the way from Carmel to Michigan, and this should be done ASAP. It is the "missing link" in Indiana's freeway system, now that I-69 is about to be completed to KY.
I am a proponent of the US 31 (I-67) freeway, but the traffic volume on US 31 is a lot lower than these Interstate sections I documented. Given a finite amount of funding and a lot of highway improvement needs, I think only making incremental improvements on US 31 in Tipton County plus building the previously announced interchanges between Galveston and Argos probably make the most sense.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 06, 2021, 11:06:55 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 06, 2021, 11:06:55 PM
I used to live right off I-265 and yes, they're very busy, but they're very short, and not with nearly the number of trucks as I-65.
The I-69 sections near the top of the list are short as well.
In terms of mileage, the biggest need are those segments on 65 and 70.
The I-69 sections near the top of the list are short as well.
In terms of mileage, the biggest need are those segments on 65 and 70.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on November 06, 2021, 11:35:14 PM
Post by: mukade on November 06, 2021, 11:35:14 PM
I-69 from Anderson to Daleville is 8 miles. The other two I-69 sections are short, but all three would extend current 6 lane sections.
I-265/SR 265, as a whole, is 10 miles. I am guessing that the tolling of the bridges in Louisville may have increased traffic on I-265 and on the the I-64 Sherman Minton Bridge over the Ohio River - just a theory. Nonetheless, that is a significant difference in volume over the next sections.
I actually I forgot to include I-469 and Cline Avenue (SR 912) in the list.
Cline Avenue would be a very expensive upgrade.
I-265/SR 265, as a whole, is 10 miles. I am guessing that the tolling of the bridges in Louisville may have increased traffic on I-265 and on the the I-64 Sherman Minton Bridge over the Ohio River - just a theory. Nonetheless, that is a significant difference in volume over the next sections.
I actually I forgot to include I-469 and Cline Avenue (SR 912) in the list.
- I-469 between Maplecrest Ave. and I-69: 47,978
- SR 912 between 165th St. and the Borman: 56,095 (making it #5)
- SR 912 between US 20 and 165th St.: 49,298
- SR 912 between the Toll Road interchange and US 20: 39,322
Cline Avenue would be a very expensive upgrade.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on November 06, 2021, 11:49:26 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on November 06, 2021, 11:49:26 PM
Quote from: mukade on November 06, 2021, 10:56:09 PMOne thing this fails to look at, as well, is the truck percentages on each segment, as well as length and urban vs. rural.
Rather than saying I-65 and I-70 should get widened to 6 lanes before any other freeways, I would prioritize by traffic volume - and what the busiest sections are might surprise you. The top 15 busiest 4 lane sections include five on I-265, three on I-69 and one on I-74 as shown in the top 25 table below.
A long distance, rural highway with high truck volumes with lower AADT overall is still going to have more demand for a 6 lane widening project than a local, urban highway with low truck volumes with a somewhat higher AADT.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on November 06, 2021, 11:53:52 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on November 06, 2021, 11:53:52 PM
Quote from: mukade on November 06, 2021, 11:35:14 PMWith cline ave being a 9 series route I doubt indot cares about it. They probably forgot they own it
I-69 from Anderson to Daleville is 8 miles. The other two I-69 sections are short, but all three would extend current 6 lane sections.
I-265/SR 265, as a whole, is 10 miles. I am guessing that the tolling of the bridges in Louisville may have increased traffic on I-265 and on the the I-64 Sherman Minton Bridge over the Ohio River - just a theory. Nonetheless, that is a significant difference in volume over the next sections.
I actually I forgot to include I-469 and Cline Avenue (SR 912) in the list.
- I-469 between Maplecrest Ave. and I-69: 47,978
- SR 912 between 165th St. and the Borman: 56,095 (making it #5)
- SR 912 between US 20 and 165th St.: 49,298
- SR 912 between the Toll Road interchange and US 20: 39,322
Cline Avenue would be a very expensive upgrade.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on November 06, 2021, 11:58:24 PM
Post by: mukade on November 06, 2021, 11:58:24 PM
It was built as a 9xx in the 1960s and did not replace an old alignment of US 12 unlike the recent 9xx routes.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on November 07, 2021, 12:09:26 AM
Post by: mukade on November 07, 2021, 12:09:26 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on November 06, 2021, 11:49:26 PMQuote from: mukade on November 06, 2021, 10:56:09 PMOne thing this fails to look at, as well, is the truck percentages on each segment, as well as length and urban vs. rural.
Rather than saying I-65 and I-70 should get widened to 6 lanes before any other freeways, I would prioritize by traffic volume - and what the busiest sections are might surprise you. The top 15 busiest 4 lane sections include five on I-265, three on I-69 and one on I-74 as shown in the top 25 table below.
A long distance, rural highway with high truck volumes with lower AADT overall is still going to have more demand for a 6 lane widening project than a local, urban highway with low truck volumes with a somewhat higher AADT.
Yes, but I-69 (classic) also definitely has very heavy truck traffic. I-74 a little bit less so, but Indiana is a manufacturing state so truck volume applies to all intercity highways other than the I-69 extension. I haven't driven I-265 during rush hour so I can't comment, but Cline Avenue has a lot of trucks from the steel mills and is not fun to drive.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 07, 2021, 08:35:00 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 07, 2021, 08:35:00 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 06, 2021, 11:53:52 PMQuote from: mukade on November 06, 2021, 11:35:14 PMWith cline ave being a 9 series route I doubt indot cares about it. They probably forgot they own it
I-69 from Anderson to Daleville is 8 miles. The other two I-69 sections are short, but all three would extend current 6 lane sections.
I-265/SR 265, as a whole, is 10 miles. I am guessing that the tolling of the bridges in Louisville may have increased traffic on I-265 and on the the I-64 Sherman Minton Bridge over the Ohio River - just a theory. Nonetheless, that is a significant difference in volume over the next sections.
I actually I forgot to include I-469 and Cline Avenue (SR 912) in the list.
- I-469 between Maplecrest Ave. and I-69: 47,978
- SR 912 between 165th St. and the Borman: 56,095 (making it #5)
- SR 912 between US 20 and 165th St.: 49,298
- SR 912 between the Toll Road interchange and US 20: 39,322
Cline Avenue would be a very expensive upgrade.
They don't own the bridge. The new bridge was built as a private company, and it's only 2 lanes.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on November 07, 2021, 09:30:55 PM
Post by: I-39 on November 07, 2021, 09:30:55 PM
The priority for six laning needs to be I-65. It is arguably the most important Interstate in the state as it connects the Chicagoland area, a major transportation hub, with the Southeastern US. Kentucky has already six laned their entire portion of the highway and Tennessee is now beginning to fill the gap to Nashville.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Buck87 on November 07, 2021, 09:35:04 PM
Post by: Buck87 on November 07, 2021, 09:35:04 PM
Quote from: I-39 on November 07, 2021, 09:30:55 PM
The priority for six laning needs to be I-65. It is arguably the most important Interstate in the state as it connects the Chicagoland area, a major transportation hub, with the Southeastern US. Kentucky has already six laned their entire portion of the highway and Tennessee is now beginning to fill the gap to Nashville.
How much of it is left to do?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ilpt4u on November 07, 2021, 09:41:52 PM
Post by: ilpt4u on November 07, 2021, 09:41:52 PM
Quote from: I-39 on November 07, 2021, 09:30:55 PMIts too bad that US 41 will almost certainly never be upgraded to I-41 in Indiana. The US 41 corridor would be the more "ideal" Chicago-Nashville Interstate routing. The I-65 route has more urban choke points, and the I-57/24 route is a little more out of the way (not too much, tho)
The priority for six laning needs to be I-65. It is arguably the most important Interstate in the state as it connects the Chicagoland area, a major transportation hub, with the Southeastern US. Kentucky has already six laned their entire portion of the highway and Tennessee is now beginning to fill the gap to Nashville.
Almost certainly not worth the $$$Billions investment to make I-41 as the "I-57" -style Indy/Louisville bypass for Chicago<->Nashville traffic
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 07, 2021, 09:45:51 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 07, 2021, 09:45:51 PM
Quote from: Buck87 on November 07, 2021, 09:35:04 PMQuote from: I-39 on November 07, 2021, 09:30:55 PM
The priority for six laning needs to be I-65. It is arguably the most important Interstate in the state as it connects the Chicagoland area, a major transportation hub, with the Southeastern US. Kentucky has already six laned their entire portion of the highway and Tennessee is now beginning to fill the gap to Nashville.
How much of it is left to do?
Memphis-Seymour 31 miles
Walesboro-Franklin 26 miles
Pike Twp-Zionsville 6 miles
Lebanon-Throntown 5 miles (in progress)
Thorntown-Dayton 23 miles
Lafayette-West Lafayette 3 miles (in progress)
West Lafayette-Lowell 62 miles
So a total of 156 miles with 8 of those miles in progress.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 07, 2021, 09:48:00 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 07, 2021, 09:48:00 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 07, 2021, 09:41:52 PMQuote from: I-39 on November 07, 2021, 09:30:55 PMIts too bad that US 41 will almost certainly never be upgraded to I-41 in Indiana. The US 41 corridor would be the more "ideal" Chicago-Nashville Interstate routing. The I-65 route has more urban choke points, and the I-57/24 route is a little more out of the way (not too much, tho)
The priority for six laning needs to be I-65. It is arguably the most important Interstate in the state as it connects the Chicagoland area, a major transportation hub, with the Southeastern US. Kentucky has already six laned their entire portion of the highway and Tennessee is now beginning to fill the gap to Nashville.
Almost certainly not worth the $$$Billions investment to make I-41 as the "I-57" -style Indy/Louisville bypass for Chicago<->Nashville traffic
So I've driven US 41/IN63 quite a bit as a part of road-clinching trips. The section from IN 2 up to I-80/94 and the section around Terre Haute could use an upgrade, but the rest of it is fine as a 4 lane divided highway with minimal stop lights.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on November 08, 2021, 05:52:20 PM
Post by: mukade on November 08, 2021, 05:52:20 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on November 07, 2021, 09:45:51 PMQuote from: Buck87 on November 07, 2021, 09:35:04 PM
How much of it is left to do?
Memphis-Seymour 31 miles
Walesboro-Franklin 26 miles
Pike Twp-Zionsville 6 miles
Lebanon-Throntown 5 miles (in progress)
Thorntown-Dayton 23 miles
Lafayette-West Lafayette 3 miles (in progress)
West Lafayette-Lowell 62 miles
So a total of 156 miles with 8 of those miles in progress.
SR 58 at Walesboro to US 31 at Taylorsville/Edinburgh is also under construction
Quote from: I-39 on November 07, 2021, 09:30:55 PM
The priority for six laning needs to be I-65. It is arguably the most important Interstate in the state as it connects the Chicagoland area, a major transportation hub, with the Southeastern US. Kentucky has already six laned their entire portion of the highway and Tennessee is now beginning to fill the gap to Nashville.
I disagree. INDOT has already completed four sections on I-69 (two in Fort Wayne and two from Fishers to Anderson), and one section of I-70 from Mt. Comfort Rd to SR 9 is currently under construction. Building the areas with the greatest need beats widening one highway.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 08, 2021, 05:58:05 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 08, 2021, 05:58:05 PM
I would argue that the entirety of I-65 is the area of greatest need. I get stuck behind trucks in the left lane on I-65 on a regular basis. It almost never happens on I-69 or I-70.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on November 08, 2021, 06:17:36 PM
Post by: mukade on November 08, 2021, 06:17:36 PM
That is anecdotal. I drove down to Louisville in September, and it was smooth sailing the entire way. Granted, other times have been less than ideal, but it is not always bad. I can remember some of the worst drives with respect to getting stuck behind trucks have been on I-70 between Richmond and Greenfield. I-70 has hills as well, and that exacerbates the problem.
When my daughter lived in Fort Wayne, I can remember several very frustrating and exhausting drives on I-69. I think the traffic volume numbers speak for themselves. I am glad that INDOT has spread the wealth, at least to some extent, so far.
When my daughter lived in Fort Wayne, I can remember several very frustrating and exhausting drives on I-69. I think the traffic volume numbers speak for themselves. I am glad that INDOT has spread the wealth, at least to some extent, so far.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on November 08, 2021, 07:35:28 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on November 08, 2021, 07:35:28 PM
Quote from: mukade on November 08, 2021, 05:52:20 PM
SR 58 at Walesboro to US 31 at Taylorsville/Edinburgh is also under construction
Well, only I-65 from SR 58 to SR 46 in Columbus. I've seen nothing about any planned widening of I-65 up to US 31 in Taylorsville. There aren't even any plans for the I-65 overpass over SR 46 which may be a unique undertaking. Though I'd be happy to see it, the rest of I-65 from SR 46 to SR 44 should be done as soon as possible.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on November 08, 2021, 07:55:00 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on November 08, 2021, 07:55:00 PM
i bet 46 will be the last piece, that bridge has got to be expensive to widen!
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on November 08, 2021, 09:02:25 PM
Post by: mukade on November 08, 2021, 09:02:25 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on November 08, 2021, 07:35:28 PMQuote from: mukade on November 08, 2021, 05:52:20 PM
SR 58 at Walesboro to US 31 at Taylorsville/Edinburgh is also under construction
Well, only I-65 from SR 58 to SR 46 in Columbus. I've seen nothing about any planned widening of I-65 up to US 31 in Taylorsville. There aren't even any plans for the I-65 overpass over SR 46 which may be a unique undertaking. Though I'd be happy to see it, the rest of I-65 from SR 46 to SR 44 should be done as soon as possible.
Yes, it is SR 58 to SR 46 that is being widened - not to US 31. The work from SR 46 to US 31 is just "resurfacing all travel lanes to the north from the Driftwood River Bridge near Columbus to U.S. 31 at Taylorsville".
http://tribtown.com/2021/03/15/i65_lanes_to_close_for_road_work/ (http://tribtown.com/2021/03/15/i65_lanes_to_close_for_road_work/) has this additional information about future projects that is somewhat interesting (italics and bold are mine):
I-70/I-65 INDOT construction projects scheduled over the next 5 years:
- I-70 from Mt. Comfort Road to SR 9 Greenfield
- I-65 from US 52/SR 32 Lebanon to SR 47
- I-65 from SR 58 to SR 46 Columbus
- I-65/I-70 North Split interchange overhaul in downtown Indy
- I-65 from Exit #16 (Memphis Road/Blue Lick Road) to SR 56 Scottsburg
- I-65 from Wabash River near Lafayette to SR 43
- I-70 from SR 267 Plainfield to Ameriplex Parkway/Reagan Parkway (in active construction)
- I-70 from SR 1 Cambridge City to US 35 Richmond
- I-65 from US 50 Seymour to SR 58 (in active construction)
This article is written from a Terre Haute perspective. It indicates that most are future projects, but obviously, some are currently underway.
Another article: https://benefits.transportation.org/heavy-haul-transportation-corridor-expansion-in-clark-county/ (https://benefits.transportation.org/heavy-haul-transportation-corridor-expansion-in-clark-county/) shows a project underway in Clark County that would seem to indicate truck traffic will increase on I-265 - at least to some extent. So as the traffic volume numbers would also indicate, I wouldn't write off the need on widening that highway. I actually remember the last time I drove I-265, traffic was backed up for at least half a mile approaching I-64. So again, I think the "widen I-65 or bust" attitude isn't the best strategy unless you're a Chicagoland or Wisconsin driver headed south.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Terry Shea on November 13, 2021, 02:15:42 AM
Post by: Terry Shea on November 13, 2021, 02:15:42 AM
Sure would be nice to find posts in this forum that stay on topic.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: bmeiser on November 14, 2021, 09:25:25 AM
Post by: bmeiser on November 14, 2021, 09:25:25 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on November 13, 2021, 02:15:42 AM
Sure would be nice to find posts in this forum that stay on topic.
I'm a member of other forums where you'll get temporarily banned (after proper warning) for going off topic. Definitely not the case here.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: westerninterloper on November 14, 2021, 02:15:10 PM
Post by: westerninterloper on November 14, 2021, 02:15:10 PM
Quote from: bmeiser on November 14, 2021, 09:25:25 AMQuote from: Terry Shea on November 13, 2021, 02:15:42 AM
Sure would be nice to find posts in this forum that stay on topic.
At least the topic is about highway upgrades in Indiana...not like it's about frozen corn or intergalactic communication.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: SSR_317 on November 14, 2021, 04:26:42 PM
Post by: SSR_317 on November 14, 2021, 04:26:42 PM
Quote from: mukade on November 06, 2021, 10:56:09 PM
Rather than saying I-65 and I-70 should get widened to 6 lanes before any other freeways, I would prioritize by traffic volume - and what the busiest sections are might surprise you. The top 15 busiest 4 lane sections include five on I-265, three on I-69 and one on I-74 as shown in the top 25 table below.(I did not see a traffic count from I-865 to 71st St)
Rank Location AADT 1 I-265 between Grant Line Rd and Charlestown Rd 63,118 2 I-265 between I-64 and State St (New Albany) 61,532 3 I-265 between Charlestown Rd and I-65 (Clarksville) 59,997 4 I-265 between State St and Grant Line Rd (New Albany) 56,431 5 I-70 between SR 39 and SR 267 (Plainfield-Monrovia) 48,934 6 SR-265 between I-65 and SR 62 (Jeffersonville) 47,876 7 I-65 between 71st St and I-465 (Indianapolis) 46,632 8 I-65 between SR 252 and SR 44 44,992 9 I-65 between US 31 and SR 252 43,614 10 I-69 between SR 1 and Union Chapel (Fort Wayne) 43,004 11 I-65 between Memphis and SR 160 42,003 12 I-69 between SR 9/SR 109 and Daleville 41,701 13 I-65 between SR 10 and SR 2 39,527 14 I-74 between Post Rd and I-465 (Indianapolis) 39,089 15 I-69 between Airport Expy and Jefferson St. (Fort Wayne) 38,921 16 I-65 between SR 47 and SR 28 38,787 17 I-70 between SR 46 and US 41 (Terre Haute) 38,655 18 I-70 between SR 109 and SR 3 37,989 19 I-65 between SR 28 and SR 38 37,885 20 I-70 between Centerville exit and US 35 37,661 21 I-70 between SR 9 and SR 109 37,584 22 I-65 between SR 160 and US 31 37,384 23 I-70 between US 27 and SR 227 (Richmond) 37,332 24 I-70 between US 231 and SR 39 36,650 25 I-65 between SR 114 and SR 14 36,441
...
No disrespect intended, but what was your source for those figures? They seem to exclude I-465 (which, of course, has almost no 4-lanes sections remaining). And I know that I-465 was excluded from the topic originally addressed (as were I-80, I-90, and I-94 in NW Indiana), but other roads (e.g., I-265) were included in the above figures which we were also not specifically talking about. By excluding any route, its gives many out-of-state readers a very skewed idea of what are actually Indiana's busiest freeway segments. Better (IMHO) to have included the figures for all routes in the state and then highlighted those on segments of routes we were actually talking about (though I know that would've been a lot of work).
I agree with the subsequent comments about the percentage of commercial vehicle (truck) volume on any segment being an important component of which areas to prioritize for widening from 4 to 6 overall lanes. Together with AADT, that would provide a better statistical discussion point than AADT alone.
Also, I agree that we need to get this thread back on topic, which is "More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend". Perhaps this particular discussion belongs on another (or its own) thread, though having the State of Indiana divided between two separate discussion boards here is a serious hindrance to that goal.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on November 14, 2021, 05:29:13 PM
Post by: mukade on November 14, 2021, 05:29:13 PM
I am sure it makes sense to move the relevant posts into a new thread about the program to widen the major freeways in Indiana (which is/was called Major Moves 2020). Just like any conversation, other topics come up during a discussion. I think you will find multiple such diversions in this and most other threads. That said, the traffic volume numbers in the INDOT database are highly relevant to the the US 31 upgrade discussion - the volumes posted far exceed those on US 31 so we need to be realistic about a lot happening on US 31 north of US 24.
But, for the record, I have numerous specific posts on the US 31 upgrade.
The numbers cited come from the INDOT Traffic Count DB (https://indot.public.ms2soft.com/tcds/tsearch.asp?loc=Indot&mod (https://indot.public.ms2soft.com/tcds/tsearch.asp?loc=Indot&mod)). The numbers I posted show the highest traffic counts for four lane sections of freeway. Unless you count the interchange with I-865 at the northwest corner, I-465 has no four lane sections - it is all six or eight lanes. I-865 itself has four lanes, but the counts were not sufficient to make the list. Moreover, INDOT already has active plans to upgrade that interchange as well as the two I-69 interchanges on I-465.
Of course there are multiple factors. I posted traffic counts, but it would be great for someone to post truck volume and accident statistics in whatever thread this ends up in.
But, for the record, I have numerous specific posts on the US 31 upgrade.
The numbers cited come from the INDOT Traffic Count DB (https://indot.public.ms2soft.com/tcds/tsearch.asp?loc=Indot&mod (https://indot.public.ms2soft.com/tcds/tsearch.asp?loc=Indot&mod)). The numbers I posted show the highest traffic counts for four lane sections of freeway. Unless you count the interchange with I-865 at the northwest corner, I-465 has no four lane sections - it is all six or eight lanes. I-865 itself has four lanes, but the counts were not sufficient to make the list. Moreover, INDOT already has active plans to upgrade that interchange as well as the two I-69 interchanges on I-465.
Quote from: SSR_317 on November 14, 2021, 04:26:42 PM
I agree with the subsequent comments about the percentage of commercial vehicle (truck) volume on any segment being an important component of which areas to prioritize for widening from 4 to 6 overall lanes. Together with AADT, that would provide a better statistical discussion point than AADT alone.
Of course there are multiple factors. I posted traffic counts, but it would be great for someone to post truck volume and accident statistics in whatever thread this ends up in.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on November 25, 2021, 10:22:16 PM
Post by: monty on November 25, 2021, 10:22:16 PM
I deliberated posting this between US 31 upgrades and the general Indiana thread but settled here because the US 31 upgrade is the influencing factor.
According to the Nov 23 Tipton Tribune, INDOT is offering to relocate SR 19 away from its current Tipton downtown routing to Park Road east to Ash Street (known locally as "the bypass" ) where it continues north out of town. This eliminates the SR 28 concurrency along Jefferson St. through downtown Tipton.
Then the offer gets more interesting. INDOT is proposing to hand over SR 28 to the county at CR 560 W, just east of the US 31 interchange. The county would take over the some three miles to the city limits wherein the city gets all of Jefferson St (currently controlled by the state). It is not noted where / if SR 28 resumes east of Tipton. My guess is at the SR 19 intersection.
Discussion at the board of commissioners meeting quipped that truck traffic would be required to avoid downtown Tipton in favor of Division Road. Which then, would encourage/ require an interchange to be built at US 31 and Division Road. An estimated 4,000 - 5,000 trucks a day may be diverted around Tipton on this route.
Apparently the offer has been on the table since August. INDOT would pay the city $7.5 million and the county $1.5 million.
Recall that INDOT offered an exchange of SR 213 in eastern Tipton County for a Division Road interchange at US 31 in an earlier offer turned down by the county. After that, INDOT stated they'd "study" Tipton County US 31 improvements (again). Local Officials have pushed for the Division Road interchange, in part because SR 28 was the only state-planned interchange.
According to the Nov 23 Tipton Tribune, INDOT is offering to relocate SR 19 away from its current Tipton downtown routing to Park Road east to Ash Street (known locally as "the bypass" ) where it continues north out of town. This eliminates the SR 28 concurrency along Jefferson St. through downtown Tipton.
Then the offer gets more interesting. INDOT is proposing to hand over SR 28 to the county at CR 560 W, just east of the US 31 interchange. The county would take over the some three miles to the city limits wherein the city gets all of Jefferson St (currently controlled by the state). It is not noted where / if SR 28 resumes east of Tipton. My guess is at the SR 19 intersection.
Discussion at the board of commissioners meeting quipped that truck traffic would be required to avoid downtown Tipton in favor of Division Road. Which then, would encourage/ require an interchange to be built at US 31 and Division Road. An estimated 4,000 - 5,000 trucks a day may be diverted around Tipton on this route.
Apparently the offer has been on the table since August. INDOT would pay the city $7.5 million and the county $1.5 million.
Recall that INDOT offered an exchange of SR 213 in eastern Tipton County for a Division Road interchange at US 31 in an earlier offer turned down by the county. After that, INDOT stated they'd "study" Tipton County US 31 improvements (again). Local Officials have pushed for the Division Road interchange, in part because SR 28 was the only state-planned interchange.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on November 25, 2021, 10:30:50 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on November 25, 2021, 10:30:50 PM
Quote from: monty on November 25, 2021, 10:22:16 PMWhy the hell would indot propose this? Are they just going to have gaps in all their routes and expect people to know where they're going?
I deliberated posting this between US 31 upgrades and the general Indiana thread but settled here because the US 31 upgrade is the influencing factor.
According to the Nov 23 Tipton Tribune, INDOT is offering to relocate SR 19 away from its current Tipton downtown routing to Park Road east to Ash Street (known locally as "the bypass" ) where it continues north out of town. This eliminates the SR 28 concurrency along Jefferson St. through downtown Tipton.
Then the offer gets more interesting. INDOT is proposing to hand over SR 28 to the county at CR 560 W, just east of the US 31 interchange. The county would take over the some three miles to the city limits wherein the city gets all of Jefferson St (currently controlled by the state). It is not noted where / if SR 28 resumes east of Tipton. My guess is at the SR 19 intersection.
Discussion at the board of commissioners meeting quipped that truck traffic would be required to avoid downtown Tipton in favor of Division Road. Which then, would encourage/ require an interchange to be built at US 31 and Division Road. An estimated 4,000 - 5,000 trucks a day may be diverted around Tipton on this route.
Apparently the offer has been on the table since August. INDOT would pay the city $7.5 million and the county $1.5 million.
Recall that INDOT offered an exchange of SR 213 in eastern Tipton County for a Division Road interchange at US 31 in an earlier offer turned down by the county. After that, INDOT stated they'd "study" Tipton County US 31 improvements (again). Local Officials have pushed for the Division Road interchange, in part because SR 28 was the only state-planned interchange.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Interstate 69 Fan on November 25, 2021, 11:15:53 PM
Post by: Interstate 69 Fan on November 25, 2021, 11:15:53 PM
Quote from: monty on November 25, 2021, 10:22:16 PMYay for more unnecessary decommissioned routes inside cities creating unnecessary gaps. Been happening way too much recently.
Then the offer gets more interesting. INDOT is proposing to hand over SR 28 to the county at CR 560 W, just east of the US 31 interchange.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on November 25, 2021, 11:17:53 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on November 25, 2021, 11:17:53 PM
Just build the damn interchange, throw 28 onto it from 31 to 19 and boom it makes sense.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on November 25, 2021, 11:23:56 PM
Post by: monty on November 25, 2021, 11:23:56 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 25, 2021, 11:17:53 PMAgreed. The route will still land in Tipton at a logical place. Truck route achieved.
Just build the damn interchange, throw 28 onto it from 31 to 19 and boom it makes sense.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on November 26, 2021, 12:58:49 AM
Post by: tdindy88 on November 26, 2021, 12:58:49 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 25, 2021, 11:17:53 PM
Just build the damn interchange, throw 28 onto it from 31 to 19 and boom it makes sense.
But then INDOT would have to maintain the Division Rd-turned SR 28. Seriously though is INDOT really hurting for money that they have to bargain with Tipton County to maintain one of their highways to build the interchange? It's a bridge, four ramps and presumably two roundabouts. With the new infrastructure bill plus a decent funding for INDOT already there should be enough to build a freaking small exit.
Just leave SR 28 where it is. Reroute SR 19 on that bypass route, that's actually not a bad idea. And then just build the damn Division Road exit. Only reroute SR 28 if Tipton actually wants to do it. I know in places like Lafayette and Franklin the local communities wanted to do their own thing to the roadways through town, if Tipton desires this then okay, reroute SR 28 via Division Rd. If not then don't worry about it.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on November 26, 2021, 09:08:55 AM
Post by: mukade on November 26, 2021, 09:08:55 AM
CR 560W is the eastern edge of the Stellantis transmission plant so it sounds like the starting proposal from INDOT is to have a gap in SR 28 rather than a bypass. If the state were proposing re-routing SR 28, I don't think they would offer $9M in exchange for relinquishing control. The ball is apparently in Tipton's and Tipton County's court to come up with a counter-offer.
If SR 28 would be moved to Division Rd from US 31 to SR 19, it would be similar to what INDOT did in Bluffton over ten years ago. For that matter, the US 50 bypass in North Vernon and SR 38 re-routed on to I-69 in Pendleton also are about removing state highways through the center of these smaller cities.
Personally, I would favor them asking for a re-routing of SR 28 on to Division Rd. Overall, that wouldn't all bad because:
- It lessens heavy truck traffic from these downtowns
- It places full control of the the cities' main streets where it really should be (local)
- Although Division Rd was rebuilt (presumably to state highway standards) several years ago, additional safety improvements such as turn lanes or roundabouts would be more likely under INDOT control over time. I doubt that current SR 28 would get any such improvements
- It promotes growth where the relocated state route would be
All that said, I definitely favor having the interchange on US 31 at Division Rd, but INDOT could also be wanting to use CR 560W and Division road as the bypass. Wasn't CR 560W just improved a few years ago (with state funding)? If that were the case, the interchange still would not be required.
I also would have taken the offer from the state to relinquish control of SR 213 because you know traffic counts don't warrant any big investment on that road from the state - ever. As a former resident of eastern Howard County and frequent user of SR 213, the worst part of that plan for the people would be with the quality of plowing in the winter. INDOT does a good job, and most counties do not. Anyway, that part of the deal still might be required in order to get the interchange.
As for INDOT hurting for money, my guess is that it is more that they really wants to get out of the business of maintaining city streets anywhere other than where it has to.
If SR 28 would be moved to Division Rd from US 31 to SR 19, it would be similar to what INDOT did in Bluffton over ten years ago. For that matter, the US 50 bypass in North Vernon and SR 38 re-routed on to I-69 in Pendleton also are about removing state highways through the center of these smaller cities.
Personally, I would favor them asking for a re-routing of SR 28 on to Division Rd. Overall, that wouldn't all bad because:
- It lessens heavy truck traffic from these downtowns
- It places full control of the the cities' main streets where it really should be (local)
- Although Division Rd was rebuilt (presumably to state highway standards) several years ago, additional safety improvements such as turn lanes or roundabouts would be more likely under INDOT control over time. I doubt that current SR 28 would get any such improvements
- It promotes growth where the relocated state route would be
All that said, I definitely favor having the interchange on US 31 at Division Rd, but INDOT could also be wanting to use CR 560W and Division road as the bypass. Wasn't CR 560W just improved a few years ago (with state funding)? If that were the case, the interchange still would not be required.
I also would have taken the offer from the state to relinquish control of SR 213 because you know traffic counts don't warrant any big investment on that road from the state - ever. As a former resident of eastern Howard County and frequent user of SR 213, the worst part of that plan for the people would be with the quality of plowing in the winter. INDOT does a good job, and most counties do not. Anyway, that part of the deal still might be required in order to get the interchange.
As for INDOT hurting for money, my guess is that it is more that they really wants to get out of the business of maintaining city streets anywhere other than where it has to.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on November 26, 2021, 09:22:16 AM
Post by: monty on November 26, 2021, 09:22:16 AM
CR 560W was built to support Stellantis. All trucks entering the factory is routed onto CR 560. It is a quality road. Future plan is to develop industry along it. It is currently an adequate bypass route connecting SR 28 and Division Road. As development occurs, it'll be more of an industrial service corridor.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 26, 2021, 09:31:49 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 26, 2021, 09:31:49 AM
What about just designating CR 560 W, Division Rd, and SR 19 as Truck SR 28? I think the other Truck routes in the state are still locally maintained even though they're signed, but they direct the truck traffic off the mainline route.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on November 26, 2021, 09:32:51 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on November 26, 2021, 09:32:51 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on November 26, 2021, 09:31:49 AMThat makes sense, hence indot won't do it
What about just designating CR 560 W, Division Rd, and SR 19 as Truck SR 28? I think the other Truck routes in the state are still locally maintained even though they're signed, but they direct the truck traffic off the mainline route.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on November 26, 2021, 10:25:28 AM
Post by: mukade on November 26, 2021, 10:25:28 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on November 26, 2021, 09:31:49 AM
What about just designating CR 560 W, Division Rd, and SR 19 as Truck SR 28? I think the other Truck routes in the state are still locally maintained even though they're signed, but they direct the truck traffic off the mainline route.
The only signed two "truck routes" I am aware of are 1) for SR 9 in Shelbyville, and that uses I-74 and SR 44 and 2) for SR 15 in Wabash which zig-zags for about 6 blocks over local streets. These two truck routes both have a parallel regular route for cars. Probably there are several others, but none are coming to mind. Giving CR 560W and Division Rd the "truck" SR 28 designation would mean a very long locally maintained alternate. Business routes in Indiana are all locally maintained, AFAIK.
Anyway, only doing that suggestion wouldn't help the state meet its goal of decommissioning existing SR 28 in and west of Tipton. If control of current SR 28 were relinquished to the county and city, that would result in a truck route without a non-truck alternate.
Doesn't all this sort of go back to the distinction between "state roads" and "state routes" - the latter could be locally maintained while still aiding motorists.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Life in Paradise on November 26, 2021, 10:40:00 AM
Post by: Life in Paradise on November 26, 2021, 10:40:00 AM
Quote from: mukade on November 26, 2021, 10:25:28 AMQuote from: cabiness42 on November 26, 2021, 09:31:49 AM
What about just designating CR 560 W, Division Rd, and SR 19 as Truck SR 28? I think the other Truck routes in the state are still locally maintained even though they're signed, but they direct the truck traffic off the mainline route.
The only signed two "truck routes" I am aware of are 1) for SR 9 in Shelbyville, and that uses I-74 and SR 44 and 2) for SR 15 in Wabash which zig-zags for about 6 blocks over local streets. These two truck routes both have a parallel regular route for cars. Probably there are several others, but none are coming to mind. Giving CR 560W and Division Rd the "truck" SR 28 designation would mean a very long locally maintained alternate. Business routes in Indiana are all locally maintained, AFAIK.
Anyway, only doing that suggestion wouldn't help the state meet its goal of decommissioning existing SR 28 in and west of Tipton. If control of current SR 28 were relinquished to the county and city, that would result in a truck route without a non-truck alternate.
Doesn't all this sort of go back to the distinction between "state roads" and "state routes" - the latter could be locally maintained while still aiding motorists.
Unless you get rid of most of the idiots at INDOT that are pushing these "gaps", the best alternative is to push legislators to mandate that the former state route is still marked in some way that directs traffic even if the state is not maintaining it.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on November 26, 2021, 11:52:34 AM
Post by: mukade on November 26, 2021, 11:52:34 AM
Yeah. I think it is perfectly fine to move a state road from the center of a town, but somehow everything should be logically connected when a road is decommissioned. That could be by improving signage or by creating some sort of bypass.
For Tipton, specifically, the state holds the winning cards. Just ask Bloomington. The state has to approve any MPO spending so they can in effect suspend any transportation funding. Hence, Tipton needs to seek the best deal they can realizing that they will not get everything they're asking for. I think the three things Tipton and Tipton County most want are:
- To have the US 31 - Division Road interchange
- To not have to take responsibility for a lot of miles of poorly maintained roads
- To reduce heavy truck traffic on downtown streets
The state wants:
- To shed miles of state roads with low traffic volumes (i.e. SR 213)
- To not maintain streets in towns (especially through the center like Jefferson St. on SR 28)
Everything else is pretty insignificant. It seems to me that both sides can get what they most want.
For Tipton, specifically, the state holds the winning cards. Just ask Bloomington. The state has to approve any MPO spending so they can in effect suspend any transportation funding. Hence, Tipton needs to seek the best deal they can realizing that they will not get everything they're asking for. I think the three things Tipton and Tipton County most want are:
- To have the US 31 - Division Road interchange
- To not have to take responsibility for a lot of miles of poorly maintained roads
- To reduce heavy truck traffic on downtown streets
The state wants:
- To shed miles of state roads with low traffic volumes (i.e. SR 213)
- To not maintain streets in towns (especially through the center like Jefferson St. on SR 28)
Everything else is pretty insignificant. It seems to me that both sides can get what they most want.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on November 26, 2021, 12:09:17 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on November 26, 2021, 12:09:17 PM
Quote from: mukade on November 26, 2021, 11:52:34 AMI have an easy one to solve the low traffic state road problem. Get rid of SR 16.
Yeah. I think it is perfectly fine to move a state road from the center of a town, but somehow everything should be logically connected when a road is decommissioned. That could be by improving signage or by creating some sort of bypass.
For Tipton, specifically, the state holds the winning cards. Just ask Bloomington. The state has to approve any MPO spending so they can in effect suspend any transportation funding. Hence, Tipton needs to seek the best deal they can realizing that they will not get everything they're asking for. I think the three things Tipton and Tipton County most want are:
- To have the US 31 - Division Road interchange
- To not have to take responsibility for a lot of miles of poorly maintained roads
- To reduce heavy truck traffic on downtown streets
The state wants:
- To shed miles of state roads with low traffic volumes (i.e. SR 213)
- To not maintain streets in towns (especially through the center like Jefferson St. on SR 28)
Everything else is pretty insignificant. It seems to me that both sides can get what they most want.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on November 26, 2021, 01:48:15 PM
Post by: mukade on November 26, 2021, 01:48:15 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 26, 2021, 12:09:17 PM
I have an easy one to solve the low traffic state road problem. Get rid of SR 16.
Haha. My first thought was that this really would be a great one one to look at, but....
Unlike SR 213 which has a parallel state highway about four miles west and six miles east, SR 16 doesn't have that and removing it would leave 20 miles with no state road in places. So that is one factor to consider.
I did a very quick check of the traffic count map: SR 213 ranges from 1376 to 2053, and SR 16 is < 1000 east of US 35 and generally low across the state except around Monon.
The lowest I saw were:
- SR 71 in Benton County has a few locations where it is less than 100 with the lowest points being 70 and 76
- SR 18 at the Illinois state line is 99
- SR 352 a mile north of SR 26 is 90
- There are a ton of locations around the state with traffic volumes of less than 500
So I would guess more cuts will be coming.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on November 26, 2021, 01:54:50 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on November 26, 2021, 01:54:50 PM
Quote from: mukade on November 26, 2021, 01:48:15 PMBenton county is the least populated county in the state. None of the roads in that county get any traffic but us 52. You could take a nap in the middle of SR 71 and not be worried about getting hit.Quote from: silverback1065 on November 26, 2021, 12:09:17 PM
I have an easy one to solve the low traffic state road problem. Get rid of SR 16.
Haha. My first thought was that this really would be a great one one to look at, but....
Unlike SR 213 which has a parallel state highway about four miles west and six miles east, SR 16 doesn't have that and removing it would leave 20 miles with no state road in places. So that is one factor to consider.
I did a very quick check of the traffic count map: SR 213 ranges from 1376 to 2053, and SR 16 is < 1000 east of US 35 and generally low across the state except around Monon.
The lowest I saw were:
- SR 71 in Benton County has a few locations where it is less than 100 with the lowest points being 70 and 76
- SR 18 at the Illinois state line is 99
- SR 352 a mile north of SR 26 is 90
- There are a ton of locations around the state with traffic volumes of less than 500
So I would guess more cuts will be coming.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 26, 2021, 04:02:17 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 26, 2021, 04:02:17 PM
Quote from: mukade on November 26, 2021, 10:25:28 AMQuote from: cabiness42 on November 26, 2021, 09:31:49 AM
What about just designating CR 560 W, Division Rd, and SR 19 as Truck SR 28? I think the other Truck routes in the state are still locally maintained even though they're signed, but they direct the truck traffic off the mainline route.
The only signed two "truck routes" I am aware of are 1) for SR 9 in Shelbyville, and that uses I-74 and SR 44 and 2) for SR 15 in Wabash which zig-zags for about 6 blocks over local streets. These two truck routes both have a parallel regular route for cars. Probably there are several others, but none are coming to mind. Giving CR 560W and Division Rd the "truck" SR 28 designation would mean a very long locally maintained alternate. Business routes in Indiana are all locally maintained, AFAIK.
Anyway, only doing that suggestion wouldn't help the state meet its goal of decommissioning existing SR 28 in and west of Tipton. If control of current SR 28 were relinquished to the county and city, that would result in a truck route without a non-truck alternate.
Doesn't all this sort of go back to the distinction between "state roads" and "state routes" - the latter could be locally maintained while still aiding motorists.
Albany has a Truck 28, one segment of which is not also a state highway.
I agree that INDOT should drop the practice of removing signage from roads that get turned over to local control. They've set a precedent by signing the new Cline Ave bridge as IN 912 even though it's not state-owned.
Also, if we're talking about INDOT ditching lightly traveled roads, 111 south of 211 should be at the top of the list.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on November 26, 2021, 06:19:03 PM
Post by: mukade on November 26, 2021, 06:19:03 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on November 26, 2021, 04:02:17 PM
I agree that INDOT should drop the practice of removing signage from roads that get turned over to local control. They've set a precedent by signing the new Cline Ave bridge as IN 912 even though it's not state-owned.
Also, if we're talking about INDOT ditching lightly traveled roads, 111 south of 211 should be at the top of the list.
The East End Crossing and the Indiana Toll Road are also operated by private consortiums and are part of the state highway system.
SR 111 has one point with an AADT of 52. It is a strange area. SR 166 at the south terminus has an AADT of 47.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 26, 2021, 07:17:36 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 26, 2021, 07:17:36 PM
Quote from: mukade on November 26, 2021, 06:19:03 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on November 26, 2021, 04:02:17 PM
I agree that INDOT should drop the practice of removing signage from roads that get turned over to local control. They've set a precedent by signing the new Cline Ave bridge as IN 912 even though it's not state-owned.
Also, if we're talking about INDOT ditching lightly traveled roads, 111 south of 211 should be at the top of the list.
The East End Crossing and the Indiana Toll Road are also operated by private consortiums and are part of the state highway system.
SR 111 has one point with an AADT of 52. It is a strange area. SR 166 at the south terminus has an AADT of 47.
So at the far south end of 111, right at the Ohio River, there is what I would describe as a "gated compound" of a half dozen or so houses, and all I can figure is that someone who does or used to live there has some clout because there's no other reason that segment of road should be a state highway.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on November 30, 2021, 08:20:18 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on November 30, 2021, 08:20:18 AM
it's official 28 is gone. but the article i saw in the kokomo tribune made it sound 28 might be signed on the county roads.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 30, 2021, 08:53:42 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 30, 2021, 08:53:42 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 30, 2021, 08:20:18 AM
it's official 28 is gone. but the article i saw in the kokomo tribune made it sound 28 might be signed on the county roads.
I'd prefer they just leave 28 discontinuous. For thru traffic that isn't trucks, continuing straight through town on what was 28 until yesterday is still the fastest route. Signing 28 up 560 to Division Rd and back down 19 only serves to frustrate/confuse people who aren't familiar with the area.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on November 30, 2021, 08:55:00 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on November 30, 2021, 08:55:00 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on November 30, 2021, 08:53:42 AMQuote from: silverback1065 on November 30, 2021, 08:20:18 AM
it's official 28 is gone. but the article i saw in the kokomo tribune made it sound 28 might be signed on the county roads.
I'd prefer they just leave 28 discontinuous. For thru traffic that isn't trucks, continuing straight through town on what was 28 until yesterday is still the fastest route. Signing 28 up 560 to Division Rd and back down 19 only serves to frustrate/confuse people who aren't familiar with the area.
since it's a straight shot you may not even notice 28 ended :-D.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Mapmikey on November 30, 2021, 09:08:12 AM
Post by: Mapmikey on November 30, 2021, 09:08:12 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on November 26, 2021, 07:17:36 PMQuote from: mukade on November 26, 2021, 06:19:03 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on November 26, 2021, 04:02:17 PM
I agree that INDOT should drop the practice of removing signage from roads that get turned over to local control. They've set a precedent by signing the new Cline Ave bridge as IN 912 even though it's not state-owned.
Also, if we're talking about INDOT ditching lightly traveled roads, 111 south of 211 should be at the top of the list.
The East End Crossing and the Indiana Toll Road are also operated by private consortiums and are part of the state highway system.
SR 111 has one point with an AADT of 52. It is a strange area. SR 166 at the south terminus has an AADT of 47.
So at the far south end of 111, right at the Ohio River, there is what I would describe as a "gated compound" of a half dozen or so houses, and all I can figure is that someone who does or used to live there has some clout because there's no other reason that segment of road should be a state highway.
July 2021 GMSV shows 111 and 211 ending at each other now...
https://goo.gl/maps/TjMQRRJwAi73z9Lw9
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on November 30, 2021, 09:12:07 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on November 30, 2021, 09:12:07 AM
Quote from: Mapmikey on November 30, 2021, 09:08:12 AMQuote from: cabiness42 on November 26, 2021, 07:17:36 PMQuote from: mukade on November 26, 2021, 06:19:03 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on November 26, 2021, 04:02:17 PM
I agree that INDOT should drop the practice of removing signage from roads that get turned over to local control. They've set a precedent by signing the new Cline Ave bridge as IN 912 even though it's not state-owned.
Also, if we're talking about INDOT ditching lightly traveled roads, 111 south of 211 should be at the top of the list.
The East End Crossing and the Indiana Toll Road are also operated by private consortiums and are part of the state highway system.
SR 111 has one point with an AADT of 52. It is a strange area. SR 166 at the south terminus has an AADT of 47.
So at the far south end of 111, right at the Ohio River, there is what I would describe as a "gated compound" of a half dozen or so houses, and all I can figure is that someone who does or used to live there has some clout because there's no other reason that segment of road should be a state highway.
July 2021 GMSV shows 111 and 211 ending at each other now...
https://goo.gl/maps/TjMQRRJwAi73z9Lw9
interesting. now 111 goes from 211 up to 64 and it gets weird once it's in New Albany, not exactly clear what it's routing is up there. it appears SB it starts right off 64 using 5th st then turns right at main. NB it looks like it turns left from main on state then left on spring to 64. found an article about the transfer, it happened in 2020 no idea what the details were, article is behind a paywall :banghead: if anyone has access, please post.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 30, 2021, 09:16:04 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 30, 2021, 09:16:04 AM
Quote from: Mapmikey on November 30, 2021, 09:08:12 AMQuote from: cabiness42 on November 26, 2021, 07:17:36 PMQuote from: mukade on November 26, 2021, 06:19:03 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on November 26, 2021, 04:02:17 PM
I agree that INDOT should drop the practice of removing signage from roads that get turned over to local control. They've set a precedent by signing the new Cline Ave bridge as IN 912 even though it's not state-owned.
Also, if we're talking about INDOT ditching lightly traveled roads, 111 south of 211 should be at the top of the list.
The East End Crossing and the Indiana Toll Road are also operated by private consortiums and are part of the state highway system.
SR 111 has one point with an AADT of 52. It is a strange area. SR 166 at the south terminus has an AADT of 47.
So at the far south end of 111, right at the Ohio River, there is what I would describe as a "gated compound" of a half dozen or so houses, and all I can figure is that someone who does or used to live there has some clout because there's no other reason that segment of road should be a state highway.
July 2021 GMSV shows 111 and 211 ending at each other now...
https://goo.gl/maps/TjMQRRJwAi73z9Lw9
Indeed it does. I submitted this change and the change to 28 to the travelmapping admin for Indiana.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 30, 2021, 09:19:59 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 30, 2021, 09:19:59 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 30, 2021, 09:12:07 AMQuote from: Mapmikey on November 30, 2021, 09:08:12 AMQuote from: cabiness42 on November 26, 2021, 07:17:36 PMQuote from: mukade on November 26, 2021, 06:19:03 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on November 26, 2021, 04:02:17 PM
I agree that INDOT should drop the practice of removing signage from roads that get turned over to local control. They've set a precedent by signing the new Cline Ave bridge as IN 912 even though it's not state-owned.
Also, if we're talking about INDOT ditching lightly traveled roads, 111 south of 211 should be at the top of the list.
The East End Crossing and the Indiana Toll Road are also operated by private consortiums and are part of the state highway system.
SR 111 has one point with an AADT of 52. It is a strange area. SR 166 at the south terminus has an AADT of 47.
So at the far south end of 111, right at the Ohio River, there is what I would describe as a "gated compound" of a half dozen or so houses, and all I can figure is that someone who does or used to live there has some clout because there's no other reason that segment of road should be a state highway.
July 2021 GMSV shows 111 and 211 ending at each other now...
https://goo.gl/maps/TjMQRRJwAi73z9Lw9
interesting. now 111 goes from 211 up to 64 and it gets weird once it's in New Albany, not exactly clear what it's routing is up there. it appears SB it starts right off 64 using 5th st then turns right at main. NB it looks like it turns left from main on state then left on spring to 64. found an article about the transfer, it happened in 2020 no idea what the details were, article is behind a paywall :banghead: if anyone has access, please post.
Yes, that's what it is now since the segment of 111 from downtown New Albany out to 60 via Grant Line Rd got decommissioned around 2012.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on November 30, 2021, 09:23:22 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on November 30, 2021, 09:23:22 AM
i wonder if the reason why 111 went down there was because they were going to build a bridge but changed their mind. or maybe there used to be a ferry. :hmmm:
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 30, 2021, 09:43:57 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 30, 2021, 09:43:57 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 30, 2021, 09:23:22 AM
i wonder if the reason why 111 went down there was because they were going to build a bridge but changed their mind. or maybe there used to be a ferry. :hmmm:
So I went down there once in order to clinch 111. Right at the end along the river there is a small "gated compound" of a half dozen or so houses. I don't know if maybe someone there had political pull or whatever and got that road designated a state highway.
There's nothing on the other side of the river to suggest that a bridge or ferry was ever a factor.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: seicer on November 30, 2021, 10:30:14 AM
Post by: seicer on November 30, 2021, 10:30:14 AM
It connected to Lock and Dam No. 43 at New Boston.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Mapmikey on November 30, 2021, 12:07:12 PM
Post by: Mapmikey on November 30, 2021, 12:07:12 PM
Quote from: seicer on November 30, 2021, 10:30:14 AM
It connected to Lock and Dam No. 43 at New Boston.
Sometime between 1937-50 the south end of the original route, IN 133, was moved from the intersection in New Boston the short distance to the dam.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on November 30, 2021, 06:35:36 PM
Post by: mukade on November 30, 2021, 06:35:36 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 30, 2021, 08:20:18 AM
it's official 28 is gone. but the article i saw in the kokomo tribune made it sound 28 might be signed on the county roads.
That article had a quite a bit of interesting information, but it also seemed to have some errors. For example, it says SR 28 will be relinquished to local control from CR 560W to SR 19, but then it says local truck traffic would be able to drive on SR 28 through the city limits. I assume they mean Jefferson St.
Some sort of signage will direct truck traffic down CR 560W or US 31 (it does not specify) and SR 19 to Division Rd. It also doesn't say how that truck route will be signed.
But the most interesting part to me was that the city and county seemed to welcome the change in these specific ways:
- "It was the city administration that initially came to INDOT with the proposal of the state agency relinquishing Indiana 28"
- the local governments use the words "it's a great opportunity"
- the city will have the freedom to do what it wants with Jefferson St in terms of redevelopment and revitalization
- moving the truck traffic to Division Rd will allow for a better downtown experience
- even though not guaranteed, it will make it more likely that the state will build the US 31/Division Rd interchange
Additionally, they get these perks:
- the state will reconstruct the rerouted SR 19 on the east side of town adding curbs and gutters
- the local governments plan to take advantage of matching grant programs for road and improvements projects to make the ~$9M transferred from INDOT to go further
- INDOT will continue plowing for most of the county's portion of old SR 28 "for the indefinite future"
Usually it seems the local government feels like they're getting something dumped on them, but this clearly was not the case in Tipton. Personally, I think it is a great deal for them.
I am still not a huge fan of all these gaps, but most people use navigation anyway. Two of my three kids have no idea what street names or highway numbers are. I am resigned to this reality.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on November 30, 2021, 10:24:25 PM
Post by: monty on November 30, 2021, 10:24:25 PM
Unless you're a "through" commercial truck on SR 28, there really isn't much to not like about the Tipton deal. The "local" trucks permitted through the city are likely farm rigs. Even a commercial vehicle detouring to Division Road isn't a great big issue. About four miles added but avoids the slow speeds and stoplights in town on a good roadway. If you're a commercial or farm truck entering Tipton along SR 19 from the south, you can now use what was the locally controlled 19 bypass that prohibited all trucks and avoid downtown. And the big local win is cooperation with INDOT that may lead to a Division Road US 31 interchange. Perhaps the cash may be used to contribute to said interchange if need be.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on November 30, 2021, 10:45:17 PM
Post by: monty on November 30, 2021, 10:45:17 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 30, 2021, 08:20:18 AMTo clarify... Decommissioned SR 28 from CR 560W (just east of the US 31 interchange at the Tipton Transmission plant) through downtown Tipton to the east junction with SR 19, where SR 28 resumes its normal routing towards Elwood. This is about 4.5 miles in length.
it's official 28 is gone. but the article i saw in the kokomo tribune made it sound 28 might be signed on the county roads.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on December 01, 2021, 04:39:46 PM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on December 01, 2021, 04:39:46 PM
https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/miami-co-asks-indot-to-accelerate-us-31-construction/article_18ba2238-52bf-11ec-b9dc-3f5de2ce6731.html
Miami County wants INDOT to accelerate on new interchanges on US 31 at SR 18, 800 S, and SR 218 West. It also wants overpasses at 900 S in Miami County and 600 N in Howard County.
Miami County wants INDOT to accelerate on new interchanges on US 31 at SR 18, 800 S, and SR 218 West. It also wants overpasses at 900 S in Miami County and 600 N in Howard County.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on December 01, 2021, 06:06:54 PM
Post by: mukade on December 01, 2021, 06:06:54 PM
Those requests from Miami County are pretty sensible, but they also need an overpass at Division Rd (Blair Pike Rd). What do they have to lose? The state also needs to get the SR 10 interchange in Argos built.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: abqtraveler on December 01, 2021, 08:20:04 PM
Post by: abqtraveler on December 01, 2021, 08:20:04 PM
Quote from: monty on November 30, 2021, 10:45:17 PMWell, SR-28 through Tipton isn't necessarily going to go away. According to the article at the link below, INDOT is rerouting SR-28 to create a bypass of Tipton's town center. When all said and done, SR-28 will still be there, but will not go through the middle of Tipton.Quote from: silverback1065 on November 30, 2021, 08:20:18 AMTo clarify... Decommissioned SR 28 from CR 560W (just east of the US 31 interchange at the Tipton Transmission plant) through downtown Tipton to the east junction with SR 19, where SR 28 resumes its normal routing towards Elwood. This is about 4.5 miles in length.
it's official 28 is gone. but the article i saw in the kokomo tribune made it sound 28 might be signed on the county roads.
https://www.wishtv.com/news/i-team-8/indot-to-reroute-state-road-28-around-tipton/
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on December 01, 2021, 08:26:44 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on December 01, 2021, 08:26:44 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on December 01, 2021, 08:20:04 PMGood! But they should just kill 28 from 31 to 19, have it go up 31 and onto division at a new interchange. No need to take the 560 road.Quote from: monty on November 30, 2021, 10:45:17 PMWell, SR-28 through Tipton isn't necessarily going to go away. According to the article at the link below, INDOT is rerouting SR-28 to create a bypass of Tipton's town center. When all said and done, SR-28 will still be there, but will not go through the middle of Tipton.Quote from: silverback1065 on November 30, 2021, 08:20:18 AMTo clarify... Decommissioned SR 28 from CR 560W (just east of the US 31 interchange at the Tipton Transmission plant) through downtown Tipton to the east junction with SR 19, where SR 28 resumes its normal routing towards Elwood. This is about 4.5 miles in length.
it's official 28 is gone. but the article i saw in the kokomo tribune made it sound 28 might be signed on the county roads.
https://www.wishtv.com/news/i-team-8/indot-to-reroute-state-road-28-around-tipton/
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on December 01, 2021, 08:48:47 PM
Post by: mukade on December 01, 2021, 08:48:47 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on December 01, 2021, 08:20:04 PM
Well, SR-28 through Tipton isn't necessarily going to go away. According to the article at the link below, INDOT is rerouting SR-28 to create a bypass of Tipton's town center. When all said and done, SR-28 will still be there, but will not go through the middle of Tipton.
https://www.wishtv.com/news/i-team-8/indot-to-reroute-state-road-28-around-tipton/
I don't think that is true. First, why would the state give the local governments $9M if it is a swap? Second, two of the local politicians said the funding is inadequate given the fact Division Rd (a county road) would see an increase in heavy semi-truck traffic. That was in the KT article. So the way it reads to me, what was SR 28 thru Tipton will simply be Jefferson St and Division Rd will be a bypass route for trucks that will be maintained by Tipton County.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on December 01, 2021, 09:04:26 PM
Post by: monty on December 01, 2021, 09:04:26 PM
Hmm. Either Wish tv or the Kokomo Tribune is wrong. I think it may be Wish. The "bypass" is in regard to SR 19. That is what INDOT is taking control of - what the city and county now own (that is locally called "the 19 bypass" ) to re-route SR 19 away from downtown over to the east side of town to the current stoplight at SR 28 & 19.
SR 28 Truck traffic will be diverted to Division Road. There isn't any new road building going in this deal. A few already noted planned street improvements to the new SR 19 segment near Tipton High School (Park Road) and signage on current - old SR 28 to redirect through trucks. I don't believe INDOT plans to take over Division Road. That's inconsistent with all of the other releases. The majority of downtown truck traffic originates via SR 28.
It'd be very cool if the state would sign this section of Division Road "Truck 28" even though it is a county maintained road. Even better to leave up the SR 28 signs from US 31 through Tipton on that soon-to-be local road.
SR 28 Truck traffic will be diverted to Division Road. There isn't any new road building going in this deal. A few already noted planned street improvements to the new SR 19 segment near Tipton High School (Park Road) and signage on current - old SR 28 to redirect through trucks. I don't believe INDOT plans to take over Division Road. That's inconsistent with all of the other releases. The majority of downtown truck traffic originates via SR 28.
It'd be very cool if the state would sign this section of Division Road "Truck 28" even though it is a county maintained road. Even better to leave up the SR 28 signs from US 31 through Tipton on that soon-to-be local road.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: hockeyjohn on December 02, 2021, 10:04:26 AM
Post by: hockeyjohn on December 02, 2021, 10:04:26 AM
Quote from: monty on December 01, 2021, 09:04:26 PM
It’d be very cool if the state would sign this section of Division Road “Truck 28” even though it is a county maintained road. Even better to leave up the SR 28 signs from US 31 through Tipton on that soon-to-be local road.
Understanding that some rely solely on navigation devices and do not pay attention to route numbers, others do not and I wish Indiana would develop an approach on these local turnbacks to maintain signing continuity. An example could be simply putting a "TO" banner on the existing sign posts after ensuring the appropriate truck route is marked (if indeed trucks are prohibited on the former state maintained roadway). Another approach would be to use the pentagonal blue/gold sign with the name of the government entity (county, city, etc.) - similar to situations in Florida where a state route becomes a county route (and in a few cases resumes being a state route again or vice versa). This doesn't have to occur where disconnected segments are far apart (as is often the case in Indiana), but I'd recommend it in cases like Tipton (SR 28), Kokomo (SR 22), Frankfort (SR 38), Franklin (SR 44), and Lafayette (SR 25 and 26).
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on December 02, 2021, 10:08:51 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on December 02, 2021, 10:08:51 AM
Quote from: hockeyjohn on December 02, 2021, 10:04:26 AMQuote from: monty on December 01, 2021, 09:04:26 PM
It'd be very cool if the state would sign this section of Division Road "Truck 28" even though it is a county maintained road. Even better to leave up the SR 28 signs from US 31 through Tipton on that soon-to-be local road.
Understanding that some rely solely on navigation devices and do not pay attention to route numbers, others do not and I wish Indiana would develop an approach on these local turnbacks to maintain signing continuity. An example could be simply putting a "TO" banner on the existing sign posts after ensuring the appropriate truck route is marked (if indeed trucks are prohibited on the former state maintained roadway). Another approach would be to use the pentagonal blue/gold sign with the name of the government entity (county, city, etc.) - similar to situations in Florida where a state route becomes a county route (and in a few cases resumes being a state route again or vice versa). This doesn't have to occur where disconnected segments are far apart (as is often the case in Indiana), but I'd recommend for cases like Tipton (SR 28), Kokomo (SR 22), Frankfort (SR 38), Franklin (SR 44), and Lafayette (SR 26).
38 used to be signed in frankfort. no idea why they stopped. also franklin and SR 44 seems to be exactly what will happen with 28 and tipton. a gap with a truck bypass the state doesnt own.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on December 05, 2021, 08:06:46 PM
Post by: monty on December 05, 2021, 08:06:46 PM
After reading the Nov 30 Tipton Tribune article, I want to share a few added points about the SR 28 decommission & SR 19 re-routing & US 31 impacts.
"INDOT will install all truck route signage along Ind 19, Ind 28, US 31 and at necessary intersections directing all through trucks to utilize Division Road."
INDOT will upgrade the signals at the junction of 28 & 19 on the eastern edge of Tipton to provide left turning operations.
INDOT was planning a major Jefferson St upgrade to accommodate the growing heavy truck traffic on SR 28. This project will become null now.
INDOT improvements to Park Road and Ash St to alter the current city - county streets to new SR 19 state highway standards in an urban roadway design standard with a 26' curbed roadway.
Increased truck traffic on Division Road increases the chance for a US 31 & Division Road interchange.
"INDOT will install all truck route signage along Ind 19, Ind 28, US 31 and at necessary intersections directing all through trucks to utilize Division Road."
INDOT will upgrade the signals at the junction of 28 & 19 on the eastern edge of Tipton to provide left turning operations.
INDOT was planning a major Jefferson St upgrade to accommodate the growing heavy truck traffic on SR 28. This project will become null now.
INDOT improvements to Park Road and Ash St to alter the current city - county streets to new SR 19 state highway standards in an urban roadway design standard with a 26' curbed roadway.
Increased truck traffic on Division Road increases the chance for a US 31 & Division Road interchange.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on December 05, 2021, 08:14:22 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on December 05, 2021, 08:14:22 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 02, 2021, 10:08:51 AMQuote from: hockeyjohn on December 02, 2021, 10:04:26 AMQuote from: monty on December 01, 2021, 09:04:26 PM
It'd be very cool if the state would sign this section of Division Road "Truck 28" even though it is a county maintained road. Even better to leave up the SR 28 signs from US 31 through Tipton on that soon-to-be local road.
Understanding that some rely solely on navigation devices and do not pay attention to route numbers, others do not and I wish Indiana would develop an approach on these local turnbacks to maintain signing continuity. An example could be simply putting a "TO" banner on the existing sign posts after ensuring the appropriate truck route is marked (if indeed trucks are prohibited on the former state maintained roadway). Another approach would be to use the pentagonal blue/gold sign with the name of the government entity (county, city, etc.) - similar to situations in Florida where a state route becomes a county route (and in a few cases resumes being a state route again or vice versa). This doesn't have to occur where disconnected segments are far apart (as is often the case in Indiana), but I'd recommend for cases like Tipton (SR 28), Kokomo (SR 22), Frankfort (SR 38), Franklin (SR 44), and Lafayette (SR 26).
38 used to be signed in frankfort. no idea why they stopped. also franklin and SR 44 seems to be exactly what will happen with 28 and tipton. a gap with a truck bypass the state doesnt own.
Signing 38 concurrently with 421 implies that following 38 is the fastest way to get to Lafayette when it really isn't.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on December 11, 2021, 03:19:57 PM
Post by: mukade on December 11, 2021, 03:19:57 PM
The 2022-2026 Draft STIP was released this past week, and it includes US 31 interchanges at SR 10 and business US 31 going into Peru. These are also in the 2020-2024 STIP. The 2020-2024 STIP also has an item for the the US 31/SR 18 interchange, but I do not see that in the 2022-2026 document. I guess that means it has been pushed back.
There are also these new items in the new draft STIP:
The INDOT letting schedule already has items for the interchange at 276th St (February letting) and the new 226th St overpass over US 31 (July letting). Contracts have been awarded for the 236th St interchange and the new overpass eliminating the railroad crossing in Tipton.
There are also these new items in the new draft STIP:
"Access Control at Division Rd, 1.92 miles N of SR 28" estimated at $21M- "Access Control from 3.0 miles N of SR 38 to SR 931" also estimated at $21M
- "Access Control US 31 Indy to South Bend - Corridor Access Control - Limiting Access" across multiple districts for $12M
- New bridge over the Elkhart Western Railroad in Marshall County
The INDOT letting schedule already has items for the interchange at 276th St (February letting) and the new 226th St overpass over US 31 (July letting). Contracts have been awarded for the 236th St interchange and the new overpass eliminating the railroad crossing in Tipton.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on December 11, 2021, 04:43:07 PM
Post by: monty on December 11, 2021, 04:43:07 PM
"Access Control at Division Rd, 1.92 miles N of SR 28" estimated at $21M
Will $21M be enough to build a full interchange?
Or is “access control” simply a method like RIRO?
Will $21M be enough to build a full interchange?
Or is “access control” simply a method like RIRO?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: mukade on December 11, 2021, 05:23:00 PM
Post by: mukade on December 11, 2021, 05:23:00 PM
I am pretty sure $21M is not enough for an interchange, but it sounds like there is a $54M bucket of money. Not that it should or would all be used for one interchange, but there is probably more than $21M that could be.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on December 19, 2021, 10:21:47 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on December 19, 2021, 10:21:47 PM
Quote from: dlovechio on December 19, 2021, 08:57:24 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on July 17, 2019, 07:33:03 AM
The section between Plymouth and Peru would be fine without being upgraded to freeway. Less traffic than the rest of the highway, at least it always seems that way, and very few high volume intersections. I would hate to see money going to converting the Plymouth-Peru stretch before money in committed to six-laning the rest of I-65 and I-70.
I would agree except for I know many people who go to Lafayette for college from South Bend and it would be nice if that segment was freeway so you could get to the hoosier heartland highway without railroads and stoplights. (as us 24 has none of those from 31-i69)
I've always used 31->25 to get between northern Indiana and Lafayette, with a shortcut through Logansport via Miami and Cicott streets. Not sure that a freeway upgrade on 31 will suddenly make 31->24->25 faster.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-55 on December 23, 2021, 10:54:21 AM
Post by: I-55 on December 23, 2021, 10:54:21 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on December 19, 2021, 10:21:47 PMQuote from: dlovechio on December 19, 2021, 08:57:24 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on July 17, 2019, 07:33:03 AM
The section between Plymouth and Peru would be fine without being upgraded to freeway. Less traffic than the rest of the highway, at least it always seems that way, and very few high volume intersections. I would hate to see money going to converting the Plymouth-Peru stretch before money in committed to six-laning the rest of I-65 and I-70.
I would agree except for I know many people who go to Lafayette for college from South Bend and it would be nice if that segment was freeway so you could get to the hoosier heartland highway without railroads and stoplights. (as us 24 has none of those from 31-i69)
I've always used 31->25 to get between northern Indiana and Lafayette, with a shortcut through Logansport via Miami and Cicott streets. Not sure that a freeway upgrade on 31 will suddenly make 31->24->25 faster.
Google Maps shows 25 from Rochester as only 2 minutes shorter than 31 to Peru. The 20 miles to Peru would make up about 2 minutes if the speed limit increases to 65, and if we can correct the whole 65 mph on non interstate freeways law, 70 mph cuts 3-4 minutes.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on February 09, 2022, 01:47:43 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on February 09, 2022, 01:47:43 PM
Quote from: monty on December 05, 2021, 08:06:46 PM
After reading the Nov 30 Tipton Tribune article, I want to share a few added points about the SR 28 decommission & SR 19 re-routing & US 31 impacts.
"INDOT will install all truck route signage along Ind 19, Ind 28, US 31 and at necessary intersections directing all through trucks to utilize Division Road."
INDOT will upgrade the signals at the junction of 28 & 19 on the eastern edge of Tipton to provide left turning operations.
INDOT was planning a major Jefferson St upgrade to accommodate the growing heavy truck traffic on SR 28. This project will become null now.
INDOT improvements to Park Road and Ash St to alter the current city - county streets to new SR 19 state highway standards in an urban roadway design standard with a 26' curbed roadway.
Increased truck traffic on Division Road increases the chance for a US 31 & Division Road interchange.
I'm just following up to see if any new signage has been installed. Whenever that happens, please post it here so I can let the travelmapping admins know to make the appropriate changes on their site.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on February 09, 2022, 02:33:51 PM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on February 09, 2022, 02:33:51 PM
I found this interesting in the latest STIP for US 31 at Division Road: Mobility ROW for $2 million for this year and access control to go into mobility construction in 2024 for $17 million. Does that mean that there will be a full interchange with a bridge? :hmmm:
Also, they are currently working on the bridge column in the median just south of the 236th Street intersection. Work on that intersection should be in full effect sometime next month!
Also, they are currently working on the bridge column in the median just south of the 236th Street intersection. Work on that intersection should be in full effect sometime next month!
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on February 10, 2022, 10:17:02 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on February 10, 2022, 10:17:02 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on February 09, 2022, 01:47:43 PMi'll drive up and check it out this weekend.Quote from: monty on December 05, 2021, 08:06:46 PM
After reading the Nov 30 Tipton Tribune article, I want to share a few added points about the SR 28 decommission & SR 19 re-routing & US 31 impacts.
"INDOT will install all truck route signage along Ind 19, Ind 28, US 31 and at necessary intersections directing all through trucks to utilize Division Road."
INDOT will upgrade the signals at the junction of 28 & 19 on the eastern edge of Tipton to provide left turning operations.
INDOT was planning a major Jefferson St upgrade to accommodate the growing heavy truck traffic on SR 28. This project will become null now.
INDOT improvements to Park Road and Ash St to alter the current city - county streets to new SR 19 state highway standards in an urban roadway design standard with a 26' curbed roadway.
Increased truck traffic on Division Road increases the chance for a US 31 & Division Road interchange.
I'm just following up to see if any new signage has been installed. Whenever that happens, please post it here so I can let the travelmapping admins know to make the appropriate changes on their site.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on April 06, 2022, 10:01:53 PM
Post by: monty on April 06, 2022, 10:01:53 PM
US 31 Bridge Work over the NSRR in Tipton County is about to commence. According to INDOT releases to Tipton officials, Division Road will be RIRO only for the next 621 days.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on April 07, 2022, 12:41:16 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on April 07, 2022, 12:41:16 PM
Quote from: monty on April 06, 2022, 10:01:53 PM
US 31 Bridge Work over the NSRR in Tipton County is about to commence. According to INDOT releases to Tipton officials, Division Road will be RIRO only for the next 621 days.
:-D only
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: SignGeniusPTOE on April 20, 2022, 09:54:21 PM
Post by: SignGeniusPTOE on April 20, 2022, 09:54:21 PM
Meanwhile, US 30 between the Chicago metro and Fort Wayne gets nothing.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: abqtraveler on April 21, 2022, 03:37:59 PM
Post by: abqtraveler on April 21, 2022, 03:37:59 PM
Quote from: SignGeniusPTOE on April 20, 2022, 09:54:21 PMINDOT deliberately avoids making significant upgrades to US-30 so it doesn't become a route for truckers to shunpike the Toll Road.
Meanwhile, US 30 between the Chicago metro and Fort Wayne gets nothing.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on April 21, 2022, 03:40:54 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on April 21, 2022, 03:40:54 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on April 21, 2022, 03:37:59 PMQuote from: SignGeniusPTOE on April 20, 2022, 09:54:21 PMINDOT deliberately avoids making significant upgrades to US-30 so it doesn't become a route for truckers to shunpike the Toll Road.
Meanwhile, US 30 between the Chicago metro and Fort Wayne gets nothing.
INDOT doesn't operate the ITR so they wouldn't care.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-55 on April 21, 2022, 04:04:32 PM
Post by: I-55 on April 21, 2022, 04:04:32 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 21, 2022, 03:40:54 PMQuote from: abqtraveler on April 21, 2022, 03:37:59 PMQuote from: SignGeniusPTOE on April 20, 2022, 09:54:21 PMINDOT deliberately avoids making significant upgrades to US-30 so it doesn't become a route for truckers to shunpike the Toll Road.
Meanwhile, US 30 between the Chicago metro and Fort Wayne gets nothing.
INDOT doesn't operate the ITR so they wouldn't care.
And based off the number of trucks we get it basically is already a shunpike route, just a more deadly one.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on April 21, 2022, 04:09:11 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on April 21, 2022, 04:09:11 PM
they are doing a study of 30 for possible upgrades.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-55 on April 21, 2022, 04:14:57 PM
Post by: I-55 on April 21, 2022, 04:14:57 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 21, 2022, 04:09:11 PM
they are doing a study of 30 for possible upgrades.
I attended the INDOT open house for the interchange project near Sweetwater and the new Amazon center. Based off what they wanted to do near that area (bunch of RIROs) the general tone was that they didn't want to make any serious upgrades beyond what was necessary at the time (eliminating the traffic light at Kroemer). I feel like I've been hearing about US-30 studies for years and nothing's ever really come out of it.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: abqtraveler on April 21, 2022, 04:38:33 PM
Post by: abqtraveler on April 21, 2022, 04:38:33 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 21, 2022, 03:40:54 PMQuote from: abqtraveler on April 21, 2022, 03:37:59 PMQuote from: SignGeniusPTOE on April 20, 2022, 09:54:21 PMINDOT deliberately avoids making significant upgrades to US-30 so it doesn't become a route for truckers to shunpike the Toll Road.
Meanwhile, US 30 between the Chicago metro and Fort Wayne gets nothing.
INDOT doesn't operate the ITR so they wouldn't care.
Actually, INDOT would care since they are using the ITR as their cash cow for other road projects around the state. Additionally, there's a clause in the ITR lease agreement that bars INDOT from constructing a parallel route within a certain distance of the ITR. Upgrading US-30 to either freeway or to expressway with no traffic lights, may put INDOT in violation of that clause in the lease agreement.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on April 21, 2022, 05:03:39 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on April 21, 2022, 05:03:39 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on April 21, 2022, 04:38:33 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on April 21, 2022, 03:40:54 PMQuote from: abqtraveler on April 21, 2022, 03:37:59 PMQuote from: SignGeniusPTOE on April 20, 2022, 09:54:21 PMINDOT deliberately avoids making significant upgrades to US-30 so it doesn't become a route for truckers to shunpike the Toll Road.
Meanwhile, US 30 between the Chicago metro and Fort Wayne gets nothing.
INDOT doesn't operate the ITR so they wouldn't care.
Actually, INDOT would care since they are using the ITR as their cash cow for other road projects around the state. Additionally, there's a clause in the ITR lease agreement that bars INDOT from constructing a parallel route within a certain distance of the ITR. Upgrading US-30 to either freeway or to expressway with no traffic lights, may put INDOT in violation of that clause in the lease agreement.
INDOT got the money up front. There is no benefit to INDOT if more people use the ITR. I don't know the exact distance on the freeway ban, but whatever it is US 30 has to be outside that range east of Plymouth at the very least.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: dvferyance on April 21, 2022, 06:05:40 PM
Post by: dvferyance on April 21, 2022, 06:05:40 PM
Quote from: SignGeniusPTOE on April 20, 2022, 09:54:21 PMWhy should it? Ever heard of something called the toll road?
Meanwhile, US 30 between the Chicago metro and Fort Wayne gets nothing.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on April 21, 2022, 06:41:59 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on April 21, 2022, 06:41:59 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on April 21, 2022, 06:05:40 PMThat would add over 30 minutes and 40 miles to a trip to Fort Wayne from Chicago.Quote from: SignGeniusPTOE on April 20, 2022, 09:54:21 PMWhy should it? Ever heard of something called the toll road?
Meanwhile, US 30 between the Chicago metro and Fort Wayne gets nothing.
The toll road is irrelevant in that context.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: SignGeniusPTOE on April 26, 2022, 02:40:34 PM
Post by: SignGeniusPTOE on April 26, 2022, 02:40:34 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on April 21, 2022, 06:05:40 PMQuote from: SignGeniusPTOE on April 20, 2022, 09:54:21 PMWhy should it? Ever heard of something called the toll road?
Meanwhile, US 30 between the Chicago metro and Fort Wayne gets nothing.
Why was US 31 upgraded? Simply use I-65 and the Toll Road to go from Indy to South Bend. :sombrero:
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on April 26, 2022, 04:15:41 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on April 26, 2022, 04:15:41 PM
US 31 is the direct route from Indianapolis to South Bend. Interstate 65 is more for Chicago-bound traffic. Some want to make the US 31 Indianapolis-to-South Bend Corridor Interstate 67, but I digress.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on April 26, 2022, 05:29:43 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on April 26, 2022, 05:29:43 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 26, 2022, 04:15:41 PMIt was sarcasm.
US 31 is the direct route from Indianapolis to South Bend. Interstate 65 is more for Chicago-bound traffic. Some want to make the US 31 Indianapolis-to-South Bend Corridor Interstate 67, but I digress.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-55 on April 26, 2022, 08:25:55 PM
Post by: I-55 on April 26, 2022, 08:25:55 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 26, 2022, 05:29:43 PMWith such a low post count he's gonna get the Angelo treatment.Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 26, 2022, 04:15:41 PMIt was sarcasm.
US 31 is the direct route from Indianapolis to South Bend. Interstate 65 is more for Chicago-bound traffic. Some want to make the US 31 Indianapolis-to-South Bend Corridor Interstate 67, but I digress.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: dvferyance on April 26, 2022, 09:20:21 PM
Post by: dvferyance on April 26, 2022, 09:20:21 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 26, 2022, 04:15:41 PMThen what would be a better corridor for a futire I-67? I think it makes sense it connects Indianapolis with South Bend and Grand Rapids. Although I will agree it will be awhile before it will all be freeway.
US 31 is the direct route from Indianapolis to South Bend. Interstate 65 is more for Chicago-bound traffic. Some want to make the US 31 Indianapolis-to-South Bend Corridor Interstate 67, but I digress.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on April 26, 2022, 10:25:04 PM
Post by: monty on April 26, 2022, 10:25:04 PM
INDOT to begin removing homes with driveways that access US 31 in Miami County: https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/indot-to-demolish-homes-along-us-31-in-miami-co/article_17f94016-c585-11ec-b094-c7a6b2192c61.html?utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR3iuQHoNozDFyzVsPke24sTlnTaAyyeCgcUIQB-ehR8khhe9jmxFasX0Ug
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: JREwing78 on April 27, 2022, 02:52:16 AM
Post by: JREwing78 on April 27, 2022, 02:52:16 AM
Quote from: monty on April 26, 2022, 10:25:04 PM
INDOT to begin removing homes with driveways that access US 31 in Miami County: https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/indot-to-demolish-homes-along-us-31-in-miami-co/article_17f94016-c585-11ec-b094-c7a6b2192c61.html?utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR3iuQHoNozDFyzVsPke24sTlnTaAyyeCgcUIQB-ehR8khhe9jmxFasX0Ug (https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/indot-to-demolish-homes-along-us-31-in-miami-co/article_17f94016-c585-11ec-b094-c7a6b2192c61.html?utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR3iuQHoNozDFyzVsPke24sTlnTaAyyeCgcUIQB-ehR8khhe9jmxFasX0Ug)
That should be a standing policy of INDOT along all of the sections of US-31 north of Indianapolis that have properties with driveway access.
In lieu of having the funds to remove driveway access entirely, INDOT should take advantage of every opportunity it gets to have property owners give up that access voluntarily. The more they can get done now, the safer US-31 becomes and the cheaper it will be to go fully limited-access later.
They should have a similar policy along US-30 and IN-63/US-41 where these roads are not fully limited access.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on April 27, 2022, 07:23:28 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on April 27, 2022, 07:23:28 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 27, 2022, 02:52:16 AMQuote from: monty on April 26, 2022, 10:25:04 PM
INDOT to begin removing homes with driveways that access US 31 in Miami County: https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/indot-to-demolish-homes-along-us-31-in-miami-co/article_17f94016-c585-11ec-b094-c7a6b2192c61.html?utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR3iuQHoNozDFyzVsPke24sTlnTaAyyeCgcUIQB-ehR8khhe9jmxFasX0Ug (https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/indot-to-demolish-homes-along-us-31-in-miami-co/article_17f94016-c585-11ec-b094-c7a6b2192c61.html?utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR3iuQHoNozDFyzVsPke24sTlnTaAyyeCgcUIQB-ehR8khhe9jmxFasX0Ug)
That should be a standing policy of INDOT along all of the sections of US-31 north of Indianapolis that have properties with driveway access.
In lieu of having the funds to remove driveway access entirely, INDOT should take advantage of every opportunity it gets to have property owners give up that access voluntarily. The more they can get done now, the safer US-31 becomes and the cheaper it will be to go fully limited-access later.
They should have a similar policy along US-30 and IN-63/US-41 where these roads are not fully limited access.
US 30 is almost entirely a different road than the Old Lincoln Highway where homes were built. There are very few homes on it. Off the top of my head, I can't even think of one.
63/41 just doesn't have the traffic volumes to justify this.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: hbelkins on April 27, 2022, 12:57:27 PM
Post by: hbelkins on April 27, 2022, 12:57:27 PM
US 31 between Indy and South Bend is fine as it is and doesn't need any "upgrades." It serves traffic just fine without the need to be a full freeway.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on April 27, 2022, 01:01:46 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on April 27, 2022, 01:01:46 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 27, 2022, 12:57:27 PM
US 31 between Indy and South Bend is fine as it is and doesn't need any "upgrades." It serves traffic just fine without the need to be a full freeway.
The section from Plymouth to Peru is fine as is. South of Peru, it does need at least the upgrades that are currently slated and a full freeway would not be unwarranted.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: theline on May 07, 2022, 02:50:05 AM
Post by: theline on May 07, 2022, 02:50:05 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on April 27, 2022, 02:52:16 AMQuote from: monty on April 26, 2022, 10:25:04 PM
INDOT to begin removing homes with driveways that access US 31 in Miami County: https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/indot-to-demolish-homes-along-us-31-in-miami-co/article_17f94016-c585-11ec-b094-c7a6b2192c61.html?utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR3iuQHoNozDFyzVsPke24sTlnTaAyyeCgcUIQB-ehR8khhe9jmxFasX0Ug (https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/indot-to-demolish-homes-along-us-31-in-miami-co/article_17f94016-c585-11ec-b094-c7a6b2192c61.html?utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR3iuQHoNozDFyzVsPke24sTlnTaAyyeCgcUIQB-ehR8khhe9jmxFasX0Ug)
That should be a standing policy of INDOT along all of the sections of US-31 north of Indianapolis that have properties with driveway access.
In lieu of having the funds to remove driveway access entirely, INDOT should take advantage of every opportunity it gets to have property owners give up that access voluntarily. The more they can get done now, the safer US-31 becomes and the cheaper it will be to go fully limited-access later.
They should have a similar policy along US-30 and IN-63/US-41 where these roads are not fully limited access.
The Voluntary Property Purchase Program, mentioned in the article, seems to be INDOT's policy for the whole of US-31. According to the INDOT US-31 page (https://www.in.gov/indot/projects/us-31-project/) homeowners along the route can voluntarily surrender their property:
QuoteVoluntary Property Purchase ProgramWhile driving the route recently, I've noticed many boarded-up properties in areas where the state has not announced any construction and not mentioned in the article. I presume that these have been acquired under this program.
A component of INDOT's long-term plan to improve safety and mobility along U.S. 31 north of Indianapolis includes reducing the number of, and in some areas eliminating private driveways which connect to the highway. To deliver on this component, INDOT is offering a voluntary property purchase program. This program gives property owners along the corridor with driveway access to U.S. 31 the opportunity to approach INDOT to discuss a potential sale of their property to the agency for the purpose of eliminating driveway access. This program is open to all property owners, commercial and residential, with driveway access to U.S. 31.
For property owners that have no access other than U.S. 31, INDOT would negotiate purchase of the entire property, remove the U.S. 31 driveway and make the balance of the property available for sale. For property owners with access to other routes, such as a state highway or local road, INDOT would negotiate to purchase only the property containing the U.S. 31 driveway, leaving the balance of the property to be retained by the owner.
Interested property owners must contact INDOT to discuss participating in the voluntary purchase program. INDOT is not actively soliciting for property purchases along the U.S. 31 corridor with the exception of property needed for planned access control projects. Property owners impacted by planned U.S. 31 access control projects will be contacted by INDOT or a contracted consultant.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on May 15, 2022, 11:43:09 PM
Post by: I-39 on May 15, 2022, 11:43:09 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 27, 2022, 01:01:46 PMQuote from: hbelkins on April 27, 2022, 12:57:27 PM
US 31 between Indy and South Bend is fine as it is and doesn't need any "upgrades." It serves traffic just fine without the need to be a full freeway.
The section from Plymouth to Peru is fine as is. South of Peru, it does need at least the upgrades that are currently slated and a full freeway would not be unwarranted.
I'd say even between Kokomo and Peru is good, just remove the stoplights. A full freeway is only warranted between Indy and Kokomo at this time.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-55 on May 16, 2022, 09:18:51 PM
Post by: I-55 on May 16, 2022, 09:18:51 PM
Quote from: I-39 on May 15, 2022, 11:43:09 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on April 27, 2022, 01:01:46 PMQuote from: hbelkins on April 27, 2022, 12:57:27 PM
US 31 between Indy and South Bend is fine as it is and doesn't need any "upgrades." It serves traffic just fine without the need to be a full freeway.
The section from Plymouth to Peru is fine as is. South of Peru, it does need at least the upgrades that are currently slated and a full freeway would not be unwarranted.
I'd say even between Kokomo and Peru is good, just remove the stoplights. A full freeway is only warranted between Indy and Kokomo at this time.
I'd beg to differ, usually about 70% of the traffic I'm with when I go to Purdue on 24 WB exits to 31 SB. In my experience 31 between Peru and Kokomo could use the freeway upgrade (AADT over 20k). I've only gone Plymouth-Peru twice and neither time did I think it needed to be a freeway then and there (AADT slightly over 10k).
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on May 16, 2022, 09:44:32 PM
Post by: I-39 on May 16, 2022, 09:44:32 PM
Quote from: I-55 on May 16, 2022, 09:18:51 PMQuote from: I-39 on May 15, 2022, 11:43:09 PMQuote from: cabiness42 on April 27, 2022, 01:01:46 PMQuote from: hbelkins on April 27, 2022, 12:57:27 PM
US 31 between Indy and South Bend is fine as it is and doesn't need any "upgrades." It serves traffic just fine without the need to be a full freeway.
The section from Plymouth to Peru is fine as is. South of Peru, it does need at least the upgrades that are currently slated and a full freeway would not be unwarranted.
I'd say even between Kokomo and Peru is good, just remove the stoplights. A full freeway is only warranted between Indy and Kokomo at this time.
I'd beg to differ, usually about 70% of the traffic I'm with when I go to Purdue on 24 WB exits to 31 SB. In my experience 31 between Peru and Kokomo could use the freeway upgrade (AADT over 20k). I've only gone Plymouth-Peru twice and neither time did I think it needed to be a freeway then and there (AADT slightly over 10k).
Let me be clear, I do think the whole corridor should be a full freeway at some point. The current "free flow" plan makes no sense, there are way too many access points along the corridor that will cause hazards, particularly south of Peru. They already made South Bend to Plymouth, the Kokomo bypass and SR 38 to Indy freeway, why not fill in the gaps? Every other corner of the state has an Interstate link, why can't South Bend?
That said, I do believe there are bigger priorities InDOT needs to focus on, such as widening I-65 and I-70 to 6+ lanes statewide. And the Plymouth to Peru segment is not urgently needed at this time as many have pointed out. As such, my suggestion is the priority right now should be converting the gap between SR 38 and Kokomo to full freeway. Finish the widening on I-65/70 and then come back and do the Kokomo to Peru and lastly, the Peru to Plymouth.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 17, 2022, 09:09:10 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 17, 2022, 09:09:10 PM
I agree that US 31 will eventually be completely freeway between Indianapolis and South Bend. If one has enough patience, it will likely happen within the next 20-30 years (that could be optimistic, though).
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on June 03, 2022, 09:33:39 PM
Post by: monty on June 03, 2022, 09:33:39 PM
Work set to begin on 276th St interchange on June 6:
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/31aaad4?fbclid=IwAR2LjPtKikEg4_loYU5j03cyFnb4U0DjjvsbPM0zWNIdza24ibOfqICpJc4&fs=e&s=cl
Looks to be complete by Thanksgiving.
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/31aaad4?fbclid=IwAR2LjPtKikEg4_loYU5j03cyFnb4U0DjjvsbPM0zWNIdza24ibOfqICpJc4&fs=e&s=cl
Looks to be complete by Thanksgiving.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on June 03, 2022, 09:36:27 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on June 03, 2022, 09:36:27 PM
Quote from: monty on June 03, 2022, 09:33:39 PMCompletion is in August 2023.
Work set to begin on 276th St interchange on June 6:
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/31aaad4?fbclid=IwAR2LjPtKikEg4_loYU5j03cyFnb4U0DjjvsbPM0zWNIdza24ibOfqICpJc4&fs=e&s=cl
Looks to be complete by Thanksgiving.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on June 04, 2022, 11:01:22 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on June 04, 2022, 11:01:22 PM
o wow that's fast! maybe 31 in hamilton co will be fully limited access soon.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on June 05, 2022, 03:27:55 AM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on June 05, 2022, 03:27:55 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 04, 2022, 11:01:22 PM
o wow that's fast! maybe 31 in hamilton co will be fully limited access soon.
Yes, and the 276th Street interchange is part of the US 31 Limited-Access Upgrade from SR 38 to 286th Street.
Here's a breakdown of the construction schedule on this project:
FY 2022- 236th Street interchange (part of a separate study)- Completion date is July 2023
FY 2022- 276th Street interchange, 281st Street cul-del-sac, and 286th Street right-in, right-out (RIRO)- Completion date is August 2023
FY 2023- 216th Street cul-del-sac and 226th Street overpass
FY 2024- 241st, 246th, & 256th Street cul-del-sac and 266th Street overpass
Link to the project's website: https://www.in.gov/indot/projects/us-31-project/us-31-limited-access-upgrade-from-sr-38-to-286th-street/
While the 296th Street intersection is the county line, that will actually be a part of a separate planning and environmental linkages (PEL) study to upgrade US 31 within Tipton County.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on June 06, 2022, 09:59:21 PM
Post by: I-39 on June 06, 2022, 09:59:21 PM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 05, 2022, 03:27:55 AMQuote from: silverback1065 on June 04, 2022, 11:01:22 PM
o wow that's fast! maybe 31 in hamilton co will be fully limited access soon.
Yes, and the 276th Street interchange is part of the US 31 Limited-Access Upgrade from SR 38 to 286th Street.
Here's a breakdown of the construction schedule on this project:
FY 2022- 236th Street interchange (part of a separate study)- Completion date is July 2023
FY 2022- 276th Street interchange, 281st Street cul-del-sac, and 286th Street right-in, right-out (RIRO)- Completion date is August 2023
FY 2023- 216th Street cul-del-sac and 226th Street overpass
FY 2024- 241st, 246th, & 256th Street cul-del-sac and 266th Street overpass
Link to the project's website: https://www.in.gov/indot/projects/us-31-project/us-31-limited-access-upgrade-from-sr-38-to-286th-street/
While the 296th Street intersection is the county line, that will actually be a part of a separate planning and environmental linkages (PEL) study to upgrade US 31 within Tipton County.
Why are they doing a RIRO at 286th street and not fully closing the intersection?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on June 06, 2022, 10:05:23 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on June 06, 2022, 10:05:23 PM
Quote from: I-39 on June 06, 2022, 09:59:21 PMQuote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 05, 2022, 03:27:55 AMQuote from: silverback1065 on June 04, 2022, 11:01:22 PM
o wow that's fast! maybe 31 in hamilton co will be fully limited access soon.
Yes, and the 276th Street interchange is part of the US 31 Limited-Access Upgrade from SR 38 to 286th Street.
Here's a breakdown of the construction schedule on this project:
FY 2022- 236th Street interchange (part of a separate study)- Completion date is July 2023
FY 2022- 276th Street interchange, 281st Street cul-del-sac, and 286th Street right-in, right-out (RIRO)- Completion date is August 2023
FY 2023- 216th Street cul-del-sac and 226th Street overpass
FY 2024- 241st, 246th, & 256th Street cul-del-sac and 266th Street overpass
Link to the project's website: https://www.in.gov/indot/projects/us-31-project/us-31-limited-access-upgrade-from-sr-38-to-286th-street/
While the 296th Street intersection is the county line, that will actually be a part of a separate planning and environmental linkages (PEL) study to upgrade US 31 within Tipton County.
Why are they doing a RIRO at 286th street and not fully closing the intersection?
I don't know, doesn't make sense to me. Bigger question is why does the farm equipment supplier at 276th get an interchange over the entire town of Arcadia at 266th?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on June 06, 2022, 10:12:00 PM
Post by: I-39 on June 06, 2022, 10:12:00 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on June 06, 2022, 10:05:23 PMQuote from: I-39 on June 06, 2022, 09:59:21 PMQuote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 05, 2022, 03:27:55 AMQuote from: silverback1065 on June 04, 2022, 11:01:22 PM
o wow that's fast! maybe 31 in hamilton co will be fully limited access soon.
Yes, and the 276th Street interchange is part of the US 31 Limited-Access Upgrade from SR 38 to 286th Street.
Here's a breakdown of the construction schedule on this project:
FY 2022- 236th Street interchange (part of a separate study)- Completion date is July 2023
FY 2022- 276th Street interchange, 281st Street cul-del-sac, and 286th Street right-in, right-out (RIRO)- Completion date is August 2023
FY 2023- 216th Street cul-del-sac and 226th Street overpass
FY 2024- 241st, 246th, & 256th Street cul-del-sac and 266th Street overpass
Link to the project's website: https://www.in.gov/indot/projects/us-31-project/us-31-limited-access-upgrade-from-sr-38-to-286th-street/
While the 296th Street intersection is the county line, that will actually be a part of a separate planning and environmental linkages (PEL) study to upgrade US 31 within Tipton County.
Why are they doing a RIRO at 286th street and not fully closing the intersection?
I don't know, doesn't make sense to me. Bigger question is why does the farm equipment supplier at 276th get an interchange over the entire town of Arcadia at 266th?
Yeah, that doesn't make sense either. It's not a true freeway if there are still at-grade access points.
Seriously, it's time for InDOT to pull a page from WisDOT and upgrade US 31 like the latter did with US 41 in the 1990s. Start at IN 38 and work north.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on June 07, 2022, 08:02:13 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on June 07, 2022, 08:02:13 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on June 06, 2022, 10:05:23 PMQuote from: I-39 on June 06, 2022, 09:59:21 PMQuote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 05, 2022, 03:27:55 AMQuote from: silverback1065 on June 04, 2022, 11:01:22 PM
o wow that's fast! maybe 31 in hamilton co will be fully limited access soon.
Yes, and the 276th Street interchange is part of the US 31 Limited-Access Upgrade from SR 38 to 286th Street.
Here's a breakdown of the construction schedule on this project:
FY 2022- 236th Street interchange (part of a separate study)- Completion date is July 2023
FY 2022- 276th Street interchange, 281st Street cul-del-sac, and 286th Street right-in, right-out (RIRO)- Completion date is August 2023
FY 2023- 216th Street cul-del-sac and 226th Street overpass
FY 2024- 241st, 246th, & 256th Street cul-del-sac and 266th Street overpass
Link to the project's website: https://www.in.gov/indot/projects/us-31-project/us-31-limited-access-upgrade-from-sr-38-to-286th-street/
While the 296th Street intersection is the county line, that will actually be a part of a separate planning and environmental linkages (PEL) study to upgrade US 31 within Tipton County.
Why are they doing a RIRO at 286th street and not fully closing the intersection?
I don't know, doesn't make sense to me. Bigger question is why does the farm equipment supplier at 276th get an interchange over the entire town of Arcadia at 266th?
I think the reason for 276th is because Hamilton County considers it one of their major county highways, it also has some major businesses on it (this is just my guess looking at google maps). as for the RIRO it's simple, it probably needed an interchange but they ran out of money for a proper one! :-D maybe a full one will come once traffic really justifies one, again just a guess on my part. Maybe it will be a good RIRO too like the one for SR 37 and 135th in Fishers. who knows.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tosa on June 07, 2022, 10:40:53 AM
Post by: tosa on June 07, 2022, 10:40:53 AM
Quote from: I-39 on June 06, 2022, 10:12:00 PMQuote from: NWI_Irish96 on June 06, 2022, 10:05:23 PMQuote from: I-39 on June 06, 2022, 09:59:21 PMQuote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 05, 2022, 03:27:55 AMQuote from: silverback1065 on June 04, 2022, 11:01:22 PM
o wow that's fast! maybe 31 in hamilton co will be fully limited access soon.
Yes, and the 276th Street interchange is part of the US 31 Limited-Access Upgrade from SR 38 to 286th Street.
Here's a breakdown of the construction schedule on this project:
FY 2022- 236th Street interchange (part of a separate study)- Completion date is July 2023
FY 2022- 276th Street interchange, 281st Street cul-del-sac, and 286th Street right-in, right-out (RIRO)- Completion date is August 2023
FY 2023- 216th Street cul-del-sac and 226th Street overpass
FY 2024- 241st, 246th, & 256th Street cul-del-sac and 266th Street overpass
Link to the project's website: https://www.in.gov/indot/projects/us-31-project/us-31-limited-access-upgrade-from-sr-38-to-286th-street/
While the 296th Street intersection is the county line, that will actually be a part of a separate planning and environmental linkages (PEL) study to upgrade US 31 within Tipton County.
Why are they doing a RIRO at 286th street and not fully closing the intersection?
I don't know, doesn't make sense to me. Bigger question is why does the farm equipment supplier at 276th get an interchange over the entire town of Arcadia at 266th?
Yeah, that doesn't make sense either. It's not a true freeway if there are still at-grade access points.
Seriously, it's time for InDOT to pull a page from WisDOT and upgrade US 31 like the latter did with US 41 in the 1990s. Start at IN 38 and work north.
Most midsized Wisconsin towns have 4 lane roads connecting to a major interstate, not to mention many of these roads are interstate level. The gas price is higher in Indiana but the road infrastructure is much worse. Just don't understand where the tax money goes.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on June 07, 2022, 11:01:46 AM
Post by: tdindy88 on June 07, 2022, 11:01:46 AM
I'm also not a fan of 276th Street being an interchange instead of 266th Street. However, given the presence of the 236th Street interchange I would have placed exits at 266th and then 296th Streets. 266th Street has direct access to Arcadia and 296th Street has direct access to Atlanta. I'm guessing INDOT wanted to do one exit in that part of the county and not two so they settled on 276th as a compromise between the two. Plus they can serve those apparently important businesses along that road.
As for the RIRO at 286th Street, I am almost certain that will only be temporary. Everything from 296th Street north through Tipton County is still being "studied," though mainly the Division Road stuff I'm guessing. More than likely 296th Street will eventually be an overpass and 286th will become cul-de-sacs at some point. But until they get serious on making US 31 a freeway through Tipton County they'll settle on 286th being a RIRO and marking that as the official end of the freeway.
As for the RIRO at 286th Street, I am almost certain that will only be temporary. Everything from 296th Street north through Tipton County is still being "studied," though mainly the Division Road stuff I'm guessing. More than likely 296th Street will eventually be an overpass and 286th will become cul-de-sacs at some point. But until they get serious on making US 31 a freeway through Tipton County they'll settle on 286th being a RIRO and marking that as the official end of the freeway.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on June 07, 2022, 01:25:54 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on June 07, 2022, 01:25:54 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on June 07, 2022, 11:01:46 AM
I'm also not a fan of 276th Street being an interchange instead of 266th Street. However, given the presence of the 236th Street interchange I would have placed exits at 266th and then 296th Streets. 266th Street has direct access to Arcadia and 296th Street has direct access to Atlanta. I'm guessing INDOT wanted to do one exit in that part of the county and not two so they settled on 276th as a compromise between the two. Plus they can serve those apparently important businesses along that road.
As for the RIRO at 286th Street, I am almost certain that will only be temporary. Everything from 296th Street north through Tipton County is still being "studied," though mainly the Division Road stuff I'm guessing. More than likely 296th Street will eventually be an overpass and 286th will become cul-de-sacs at some point. But until they get serious on making US 31 a freeway through Tipton County they'll settle on 286th being a RIRO and marking that as the official end of the freeway.
that cemetary complicates matters, it's pretty close to the road, would be tough to do anything there. (296th and 31)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on June 07, 2022, 03:49:43 PM
Post by: I-39 on June 07, 2022, 03:49:43 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 07, 2022, 01:25:54 PMQuote from: tdindy88 on June 07, 2022, 11:01:46 AM
I'm also not a fan of 276th Street being an interchange instead of 266th Street. However, given the presence of the 236th Street interchange I would have placed exits at 266th and then 296th Streets. 266th Street has direct access to Arcadia and 296th Street has direct access to Atlanta. I'm guessing INDOT wanted to do one exit in that part of the county and not two so they settled on 276th as a compromise between the two. Plus they can serve those apparently important businesses along that road.
As for the RIRO at 286th Street, I am almost certain that will only be temporary. Everything from 296th Street north through Tipton County is still being "studied," though mainly the Division Road stuff I'm guessing. More than likely 296th Street will eventually be an overpass and 286th will become cul-de-sacs at some point. But until they get serious on making US 31 a freeway through Tipton County they'll settle on 286th being a RIRO and marking that as the official end of the freeway.
that cemetary complicates matters, it's pretty close to the road, would be tough to do anything there. (296th and 31)
But then there would be too much of a gap between overpasses.
Also, not only does the IN-38 to Kokomo segment need urgent freeway conversion, it may need to be six lanes shortly thereafter.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on June 07, 2022, 03:51:48 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on June 07, 2022, 03:51:48 PM
Quote from: I-39 on June 07, 2022, 03:49:43 PMQuote from: silverback1065 on June 07, 2022, 01:25:54 PMQuote from: tdindy88 on June 07, 2022, 11:01:46 AM
I'm also not a fan of 276th Street being an interchange instead of 266th Street. However, given the presence of the 236th Street interchange I would have placed exits at 266th and then 296th Streets. 266th Street has direct access to Arcadia and 296th Street has direct access to Atlanta. I'm guessing INDOT wanted to do one exit in that part of the county and not two so they settled on 276th as a compromise between the two. Plus they can serve those apparently important businesses along that road.
As for the RIRO at 286th Street, I am almost certain that will only be temporary. Everything from 296th Street north through Tipton County is still being "studied," though mainly the Division Road stuff I'm guessing. More than likely 296th Street will eventually be an overpass and 286th will become cul-de-sacs at some point. But until they get serious on making US 31 a freeway through Tipton County they'll settle on 286th being a RIRO and marking that as the official end of the freeway.
that cemetary complicates matters, it's pretty close to the road, would be tough to do anything there. (296th and 31)
But then there would be too much of a gap between overpasses.
Also, not only does the IN-38 to Kokomo segment need urgent freeway conversion, it may need to be six lanes shortly thereafter.
:hmmm: not sure about 6 lanes but freeway yes, it will eventually happen. I bet Tipton Co. will get 2 exits and everything else will be overpasses or cul de sacs.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on June 07, 2022, 08:23:05 PM
Post by: monty on June 07, 2022, 08:23:05 PM
Take a short drive east of US 31 on 276th St and you'll find a newly built road all the way to IN 19. Plus Beck's Hybrids, a very large local employer has a CAMPUS located there. It is a Hamilton County master planning feature.
I agree that 286th St RIRO will likely be changed after the Tipton County segment study is determined.
Even though it's not "written" - I wonder if the signals at Division Road will ever be turned back on. IF you read all the existing Tipton County language, INDOT states that they may put in a cable barrier and eliminate all crossing traffic and force RIRO if conditions warrant.
The SR 28 decommissioning seems to be leveraging a deal towards a full interchange at Division Road. However, the northern part of the county (Sharpsville area) are concerned about locked off the freeway with no access. Hopefully the study will shed some light and offer good solutions.
The cemetery at the Tipton - Hamilton County line is an interesting issue. The road there is worthy of an overpass. Even though there won't be a lot of new construction in Tipton County to finish the freeway, where a second interchange and overpasses are located remain a big deal.
I've been watching this project for a long time. I once reviewed a study that showed six lanes all the way to the US 31 & IN 931 split. The traffic growth through the Westfield area has been large. Westfield was the fastest growing community in the state last year at 7%. Commuting traffic goes heavy both ways between Carmel and Kokomo.
I agree that 286th St RIRO will likely be changed after the Tipton County segment study is determined.
Even though it's not "written" - I wonder if the signals at Division Road will ever be turned back on. IF you read all the existing Tipton County language, INDOT states that they may put in a cable barrier and eliminate all crossing traffic and force RIRO if conditions warrant.
The SR 28 decommissioning seems to be leveraging a deal towards a full interchange at Division Road. However, the northern part of the county (Sharpsville area) are concerned about locked off the freeway with no access. Hopefully the study will shed some light and offer good solutions.
The cemetery at the Tipton - Hamilton County line is an interesting issue. The road there is worthy of an overpass. Even though there won't be a lot of new construction in Tipton County to finish the freeway, where a second interchange and overpasses are located remain a big deal.
I've been watching this project for a long time. I once reviewed a study that showed six lanes all the way to the US 31 & IN 931 split. The traffic growth through the Westfield area has been large. Westfield was the fastest growing community in the state last year at 7%. Commuting traffic goes heavy both ways between Carmel and Kokomo.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on June 07, 2022, 10:57:44 PM
Post by: ITB on June 07, 2022, 10:57:44 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 07, 2022, 01:25:54 PMQuote from: tdindy88 on June 07, 2022, 11:01:46 AM
I'm also not a fan of 276th Street being an interchange instead of 266th Street. However, given the presence of the 236th Street interchange I would have placed exits at 266th and then 296th Streets. 266th Street has direct access to Arcadia and 296th Street has direct access to Atlanta. I'm guessing INDOT wanted to do one exit in that part of the county and not two so they settled on 276th as a compromise between the two. Plus they can serve those apparently important businesses along that road.
As for the RIRO at 286th Street, I am almost certain that will only be temporary. Everything from 296th Street north through Tipton County is still being "studied," though mainly the Division Road stuff I'm guessing. More than likely 296th Street will eventually be an overpass and 286th will become cul-de-sacs at some point. But until they get serious on making US 31 a freeway through Tipton County they'll settle on 286th being a RIRO and marking that as the official end of the freeway.
that cemetary complicates matters, it's pretty close to the road, would be tough to do anything there. (296th and 31)
Probably the easiest solution to building an interchange would be to simply shift 296th to the north, similar to how Southport Road was slightly relocated north to facilitate the future I-69 interchange.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on June 08, 2022, 09:07:00 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on June 08, 2022, 09:07:00 AM
Quote from: monty on June 07, 2022, 08:23:05 PM
Take a short drive east of US 31 on 276th St and you'll find a newly built road all the way to IN 19. Plus Beck's Hybrids, a very large local employer has a CAMPUS located there. It is a Hamilton County master planning feature.
I agree that 286th St RIRO will likely be changed after the Tipton County segment study is determined.
Even though it's not "written" - I wonder if the signals at Division Road will ever be turned back on. IF you read all the existing Tipton County language, INDOT states that they may put in a cable barrier and eliminate all crossing traffic and force RIRO if conditions warrant.
The SR 28 decommissioning seems to be leveraging a deal towards a full interchange at Division Road. However, the northern part of the county (Sharpsville area) are concerned about locked off the freeway with no access. Hopefully the study will shed some light and offer good solutions.
The cemetery at the Tipton - Hamilton County line is an interesting issue. The road there is worthy of an overpass. Even though there won't be a lot of new construction in Tipton County to finish the freeway, where a second interchange and overpasses are located remain a big deal.
I've been watching this project for a long time. I once reviewed a study that showed six lanes all the way to the US 31 & IN 931 split. The traffic growth through the Westfield area has been large. Westfield was the fastest growing community in the state last year at 7%. Commuting traffic goes heavy both ways between Carmel and Kokomo.
the signal at division is off? :hmmm:
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on June 08, 2022, 09:34:32 PM
Post by: monty on June 08, 2022, 09:34:32 PM
The signal at Division Road is out for about the next two years due to the nearby construction activity of building the bridge over the NS RR. That project moves the southbound lanes to the west (new terrain) and the northbound lanes onto the former southbound lanes. The old northbound lanes will become a frontage road north of the tracks. Division Road is currently in RIRO with no crossing traffic.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-55 on June 11, 2022, 06:46:09 PM
Post by: I-55 on June 11, 2022, 06:46:09 PM
Quote from: monty on June 03, 2022, 09:33:39 PM
Work set to begin on 276th St interchange on June 6:
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/31aaad4?fbclid=IwAR2LjPtKikEg4_loYU5j03cyFnb4U0DjjvsbPM0zWNIdza24ibOfqICpJc4&fs=e&s=cl
Looks to be complete by Thanksgiving.
Having driven through today I find it hard to believe this project started just five days ago. Already the center bridge support is in and earthwork is extensive. I would've guessed this was ongoing for over a month or two if it weren't for this.
(EDIT): I might be confusing this with 236th street. But if it's supposed to be done in August it's possible.
Quote from: I-39 on June 07, 2022, 03:49:43 PM
...
Also, not only does the IN-38 to Kokomo segment need urgent freeway conversion, it may need to be six lanes shortly thereafter.
Quote from: monty on June 07, 2022, 08:23:05 PM
I've been watching this project for a long time. I once reviewed a study that showed six lanes all the way to the US 31 & IN 931 split. The traffic growth through the Westfield area has been large. Westfield was the fastest growing community in the state last year at 7%. Commuting traffic goes heavy both ways between Carmel and Kokomo.
Currently AADT from MM 136 and MM 156 is 30k. Considering the changes I've seen in Westfield since my last visit (brother plays multiple travel baseball tournaments at Grand Park each year) it's clear Westfield will grow more and grow rapidly (and Kokomo will probably grow faster with Grand Park opening a satellite location (Championship Park)). Grand Park was without a doubt the main stimulus for Westfield's growth, and the city has already made back the $50 million they invested in the facility (and I hear they're looking to sell). I imagine they'll start another project of some sort in the next few years which will likely invite more growth. Based off population growth, I certainly think this will need 6 lanes in ~10 years at most.
I also wouldn't be surprised if when the freeway is completed Kokomo begs INDOT for an interstate designation (assuming RIROs are all removed, etc.) (probably wouldn't be I-67, more likely an x65). This would at least allow the freeway to be posted at 70 mph.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on June 11, 2022, 08:12:49 PM
Post by: monty on June 11, 2022, 08:12:49 PM
Add that Kokomo has been chosen by Stellantis to be their North American EV battery manufacturer. 1400 jobs and $2.5 Billion investment. https://fox59.com/indiana-news/stellantis-samsung-electric-car-battery-plant-to-bring-1400-jobs-to-kokomo/amp/
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on June 12, 2022, 10:44:13 PM
Post by: I-39 on June 12, 2022, 10:44:13 PM
Quote from: I-55 on June 11, 2022, 06:46:09 PMI also wouldn't be surprised if when the freeway is completed Kokomo begs INDOT for an interstate designation (assuming RIROs are all removed, etc.) (probably wouldn't be I-67, more likely an x65). This would at least allow the freeway to be posted at 70 mph.
I doubt InDOT would do an Interstate designation until the whole corridor to South Bend is freeway.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on June 12, 2022, 11:15:17 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on June 12, 2022, 11:15:17 PM
Quote from: I-39 on June 12, 2022, 10:44:13 PMQuote from: I-55 on June 11, 2022, 06:46:09 PMI also wouldn't be surprised if when the freeway is completed Kokomo begs INDOT for an interstate designation (assuming RIROs are all removed, etc.) (probably wouldn't be I-67, more likely an x65). This would at least allow the freeway to be posted at 70 mph.
I doubt InDOT would do an Interstate designation until the whole corridor to South Bend is freeway.
Converting the Peru-Plymouth segment to freeway seems to be a long way off, so I could see the state pushing for an Indy-Kokomo freeway to get designated as I-165.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 13, 2022, 01:53:51 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 13, 2022, 01:53:51 PM
I don't think the US 31 corridor needs an Interstate designation. I support leaving the corridor with its existing designation.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: hbelkins on June 13, 2022, 03:12:23 PM
Post by: hbelkins on June 13, 2022, 03:12:23 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 13, 2022, 01:53:51 PM
I don't think the US 31 corridor needs an Interstate designation. I support leaving the corridor with its existing designation.
I don't think the US 31 corridor needs to be a full freeway. (Unpopular opinion, I know). But if it does become a full freeway, it should get an Interstate number.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on June 26, 2022, 07:56:34 PM
Post by: ITB on June 26, 2022, 07:56:34 PM
Not yet noted is the increasing importance of US 31 between Indianapolis and the Grand Rapids metropolitan area. Grand Rapids is Michigan's second largest city. It's growing. The metropolitan area now has a population of over one million. With the upgrades in Indiana, US 31 is likely to become the preferred travel corridor, if it isn't already, from western and northern Michigan to points south, and vice versa.
Indianapolis Metropolitan Area (11 counties)
1980 1,208,115 +5.4%
1990 1,294,217 +7.1%
2000 1,525,104 +17.8%
2010 1,887,877 +23.8%
2020 2,111,040 +11.8%
Grand Rapids Metropolitan Area (4 counties)
1980 701,050 +12.2%
1990 798,482 +13.9%
2000 935,393 +17.1%
2010 993,670 +6.2%
2020 1,087,592 +9.5%
Source: Wikipedia
Considering the steady population growth of both regions, it's only a matter of time (and money) until US 31 becomes a freeway north of Indianapolis. As others have pointed out, it's doubtful Indiana (and Michigan) would pursue an interstate designation until the corridor is full freeway. And even then, there may be significant additional costs, which may prove to be prohibitive, to achieve interstate designation.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on June 29, 2022, 06:20:57 PM
Post by: ITB on June 29, 2022, 06:20:57 PM
There was a major crash (https://www.wishtv.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county-sheriff-fatal-crash-at-us-31-226th-street/) today, with at least one fatality, at the intersection of US 31 and 226th Street in Hamilton County.
Late this year in December, the contract for an overpass at this location is expected to be let. Can't happen soon enough.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on June 29, 2022, 06:34:13 PM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on June 29, 2022, 06:34:13 PM
Quote from: ITB on June 29, 2022, 06:20:57 PM
There was a major crash (https://www.wishtv.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county-sheriff-fatal-crash-at-us-31-226th-street/) today, with at least one fatality, at the intersection of US 31 and 226th Street in Hamilton County.
Late this year in December, the contract for an overpass at this location is expected to be let. Can't happen soon enough.
I drove by this crash on my way back from Indy, and it was pretty bad... This section of US 31 needed an upgrade right after they were done with improving the Hamilton County stretch from I-465 to SR 38, especially within Tipton County!
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: cjw2001 on June 29, 2022, 07:33:41 PM
Post by: cjw2001 on June 29, 2022, 07:33:41 PM
Quote from: ITB on June 29, 2022, 06:20:57 PMI often have the Hamilton County EMS dispatch radio playing in the background while I work, and these accidents are very very frequent in this area. Today's was a truck vs motorcycle with fatal results. The loss of life in this corridor is terrible and all too frequent.
There was a major crash (https://www.wishtv.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county-sheriff-fatal-crash-at-us-31-226th-street/) today, with at least one fatality, at the intersection of US 31 and 226th Street in Hamilton County.
Late this year in December, the contract for an overpass at this location is expected to be let. Can't happen soon enough.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on July 01, 2022, 11:37:13 PM
Post by: ITB on July 01, 2022, 11:37:13 PM
I paged through the discussion again and then took a hard look at Google maps and GSV. As many of you are aware, there's several thorny areas along the corridor that will be difficult and expensive to upgrade. Most of these have been identified previously in the thread, and, in a few instances, possible solutions were put forward.
From my vantage point, it's difficult to see the corridor becoming "free flowing" by 2026 if the proposed J-turns north of Kokomo are ultimately not agreed to. Considering the vehement reaction to them good chance they won't be proposed again. That means the lights will remain until replaced with either overpasses, interchanges, or sealed off. The J-turns were, of course, half measures designed to buy time until additional funding could be found. It's not an intolerable situation, by any means. All INDOT needs to do is reframe the discourse by saying it is "moving toward" a free flowing US 31, toss the 2026 deadline, and continue to build as funding becomes available. Eventually, in time, US 31 will become "free flowing," and more likely sooner rather than later.
Perhaps the segment that presents the most challenge to upgrade will be at Grissom Air Reserve Base and the Miami Correctional Center. According to INDOT's US 31 Corridor Map, only intersection upgrades are scheduled in this vicinity. No overpasses, no interchange. That was the plan, but is no longer, I believe, because the area is once again under study. At some point, an interchange will have to be constructed in this area, particularly if AADT bumps up, which it will eventually. Unfortunately, there's no obvious location for an interchange. Moreover, the base is federal property, and the air museum is smack tight adjacent to 31, so the implementation of any proposed changes to US 31 may be tricky and time consuming. One solution – an expensive one – is to construct a segment of new terrain US 31 between the town of Bunker Hill and present US 31, with partial interchanges both south and north of the base. Present US 31 alongside the base could then be repurposed as a local road.
To hazard a guess, it looks like another $100-200 million may be necessary to make US 31 "free flowing" if J-turns aren't utilized to eliminate the lights. There may some funds freed up due to the additional funding provided by the 2021 Infrastructure Bill. But maybe not. Upgrading US 31 is a priority for the state, then again, there's a lot of projects, both big and small, that need funding.
Finally, as I meandered through this thread earlier, I was impressed time and again by the in-depth knowledge, insights and expertise of many contributors. Sparker, I noticed, who was quite active earlier, hasn't logged on since mid-September. Does anyone know if anything has happened? Is he OK?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 02, 2022, 10:03:19 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 02, 2022, 10:03:19 AM
Quote from: ITB on July 01, 2022, 11:37:13 PM
Perhaps the segment that presents the most challenge to upgrade will be at Grissom Air Reserve Base and the Miami Correctional Center. According to INDOT's US 31 Corridor Map, only intersection upgrades are scheduled in this vicinity. No overpasses, no interchange. That was the plan, but is no longer, I believe, because the area is once again under study. At some point, an interchange will have to be constructed in this area, particularly if AADT bumps up, which it will eventually. Unfortunately, there's no obvious location for an interchange. Moreover, the base is federal property, and the air museum is smack tight adjacent to 31, so the implementation of any proposed changes to US 31 may be tricky and time consuming. One solution – an expensive one – is to construct a segment of new terrain US 31 between the town of Bunker Hill and present US 31, with partial interchanges both south and north of the base. Present US 31 alongside the base could then be repurposed as a local road.
Yeah, there are two real problems with the Grissom/Bunker Hill area.
One is that there are three points within 2.5 miles that need access: 218 west, 218 east/Bunker Hill, and the correctional facility.
The second problem is that Pipe Creek directly to the east of 31 makes the terrain challenging to build either new roadway or interchanges.
Looks like you can do an interchange between the correctional facility and 218 east that can serve both, but 218 west is right at Pipe Creek, so that one may have to be a J-turn or no access at all. If they go with no access at all, perhaps 218 can get routed around the south end of Grissom.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on July 06, 2022, 04:34:26 PM
Post by: ITB on July 06, 2022, 04:34:26 PM
BigRigSteve (https://bigrigtravels.com/) drove north on US 31 today, as part of a run from Greenwood, IN, to Elkhart. That portion of the video begins at 1:31:15.
And, from Elkhart, after picking up a load, he went south, again on US 31, and ultimately delivered near Monrovia, IN.
And, from Elkhart, after picking up a load, he went south, again on US 31, and ultimately delivered near Monrovia, IN.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on August 22, 2022, 08:15:21 AM
Post by: monty on August 22, 2022, 08:15:21 AM
As per today's Kokomo Tribune: The takeover of a stretch of Indiana 28 to Tipton County and the city of Tipton is expected to happen no sooner than Oct. 1. There isn't anything new to report from the story https://www.facebook.com/100064008129559/posts/pfbid0HZBE3WvTurYhcnaR6r7Y1UeccBJ6oaGzvRb48zXAh9v7bMADatzrpL9TPvcnMw7Bl/?d=n
Meanwhile, the three major US 31 projects - two interchanges and the rail overpass are in full swing.
Meanwhile, the three major US 31 projects - two interchanges and the rail overpass are in full swing.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on August 22, 2022, 08:54:45 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on August 22, 2022, 08:54:45 AM
Quote from: monty on August 22, 2022, 08:15:21 AM
As per today's Kokomo Tribune: The takeover of a stretch of Indiana 28 to Tipton County and the city of Tipton is expected to happen no sooner than Oct. 1. There isn't anything new to report from the story https://www.facebook.com/100064008129559/posts/pfbid0HZBE3WvTurYhcnaR6r7Y1UeccBJ6oaGzvRb48zXAh9v7bMADatzrpL9TPvcnMw7Bl/?d=n
Meanwhile, the three major US 31 projects - two interchanges and the rail overpass are in full swing.
Last sentence pretty much guarantees a gap in 28 now. Why would the county be resurfacing 560 if the state was supposed to take over that section (i believe the original story said this)?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on August 22, 2022, 01:08:42 PM
Post by: monty on August 22, 2022, 01:08:42 PM
There will be a IN 28 gap from 560 W (1/2 mile east of US 31) to SR 19 on the east side of Tipton. 560 W needs paving by the county. I'm interested in how the signage will be informing trucks on US 31 of the "Tipton truck route." Tipton officials are hoping this participation will assist in influencing a Division Road interchange with US 31.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on August 22, 2022, 01:23:55 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on August 22, 2022, 01:23:55 PM
Quote from: monty on August 22, 2022, 01:08:42 PM
There will be a IN 28 gap from 560 W (1/2 mile east of US 31) to SR 19 on the east side of Tipton. 560 W needs paving by the county. I'm interested in how the signage will be informing trucks on US 31 of the "Tipton truck route." Tipton officials are hoping this participation will assist in influencing a Division Road interchange with US 31.
they probably wont sign it at all, other than having a no trucks sign at 560. indot should just put an interchange at division, take over maintance of division from 31 to 19 and through 28 onto it. continuity, and interchange, problem solved.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on August 23, 2022, 08:46:45 PM
Post by: monty on August 23, 2022, 08:46:45 PM
https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/fancy_images/INDOT/2022/08/6333220/4287229/capture256_crop.png
236th Street interchange - bridge construction. 236th Street will be closed to traffic across US 31.
236th Street interchange - bridge construction. 236th Street will be closed to traffic across US 31.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on August 23, 2022, 09:39:19 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on August 23, 2022, 09:39:19 PM
Quote from: monty on August 23, 2022, 08:46:45 PM
https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/fancy_images/INDOT/2022/08/6333220/4287229/capture256_crop.png
236th Street interchange - bridge construction. 236th Street will be closed to traffic across US 31.
is this supposed to be done this year?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: cjw2001 on August 24, 2022, 12:11:46 PM
Post by: cjw2001 on August 24, 2022, 12:11:46 PM
new study announcement https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/3294ef1
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: cjw2001 on August 24, 2022, 12:13:29 PM
Post by: cjw2001 on August 24, 2022, 12:13:29 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 23, 2022, 09:39:19 PMThis page says July 2023 https://www.in.gov/indot/about-indot/central-office/welcome-to-the-greenfield-district/interchange-project-at-us-31-and-236th-street/Quote from: monty on August 23, 2022, 08:46:45 PM
https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/fancy_images/INDOT/2022/08/6333220/4287229/capture256_crop.png
236th Street interchange - bridge construction. 236th Street will be closed to traffic across US 31.
is this supposed to be done this year?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-39 on August 24, 2022, 10:07:54 PM
Post by: I-39 on August 24, 2022, 10:07:54 PM
Quote from: cjw2001 on August 24, 2022, 12:11:46 PM
new study announcement https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/3294ef1
Lol. How many times to they need to study this?
Just make the road a freeway already........
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on August 24, 2022, 11:53:21 PM
Post by: monty on August 24, 2022, 11:53:21 PM
Quote from: cjw2001 on August 24, 2022, 12:13:29 PMThe interchange is heavy into construction. 236th has stayed open and the stoplight maintained. Bridge girders are being erected for the new overpass.Quote from: silverback1065 on August 23, 2022, 09:39:19 PMThis page says July 2023 https://www.in.gov/indot/about-indot/central-office/welcome-to-the-greenfield-district/interchange-project-at-us-31-and-236th-street/Quote from: monty on August 23, 2022, 08:46:45 PM
https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/fancy_images/INDOT/2022/08/6333220/4287229/capture256_crop.png
236th Street interchange - bridge construction. 236th Street will be closed to traffic across US 31.
is this supposed to be done this year?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on August 24, 2022, 11:57:42 PM
Post by: monty on August 24, 2022, 11:57:42 PM
Quote from: I-39 on August 24, 2022, 10:07:54 PMShrugs shoulders. Interesting. A coordinated attack on two major US corridors. Didn't see this coming.Quote from: cjw2001 on August 24, 2022, 12:11:46 PM
new study announcement https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/3294ef1
Lol. How many times to they need to study this?
Just make the road a freeway already........
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Terry Shea on August 25, 2022, 05:43:03 AM
Post by: Terry Shea on August 25, 2022, 05:43:03 AM
Quote from: monty on August 24, 2022, 11:57:42 PMHuh?Quote from: I-39 on August 24, 2022, 10:07:54 PMShrugs shoulders. Interesting. A coordinated attack on two major US corridors. Didn't see this coming.Quote from: cjw2001 on August 24, 2022, 12:11:46 PMLol. How many times to they need to study this?
new study announcement https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/3294ef1 (https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/3294ef1)
Just make the road a freeway already........
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 25, 2022, 07:26:05 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 25, 2022, 07:26:05 AM
Quote from: cjw2001 on August 24, 2022, 12:11:46 PM
new study announcement https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/3294ef1
Fine if they study it, but please, please get I-65 and I-70 six-laned before worrying about US 31 between Plymouth and Peru or US 30 between Plymouth and Valpo.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on August 25, 2022, 09:55:11 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on August 25, 2022, 09:55:11 AM
This was done because INDOT originally wanted to do J-Turns at a lot of the remaining cross streets. the people along the corridor hated this idea, causing INDOT to go back to the drawing board. I think we all know the end result of this study will be: Make it a freeway :-D
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on August 27, 2022, 10:41:22 AM
Post by: monty on August 27, 2022, 10:41:22 AM
Yesterday's INDOT announcement states they are starting a new US 31 study with a "clean slate."
US 30 is included in the same study. https://www.lakeshorepublicradio.org/2022-08-26/indot-to-launch-studies-of-u-s-30-and-u-s-31?_amp=true
Two year process with public input driven by the coalitions of each corridor.
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/329a652
US 30 is included in the same study. https://www.lakeshorepublicradio.org/2022-08-26/indot-to-launch-studies-of-u-s-30-and-u-s-31?_amp=true
Two year process with public input driven by the coalitions of each corridor.
https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/329a652
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on August 30, 2022, 10:58:34 AM
Post by: monty on August 30, 2022, 10:58:34 AM
Kokomo Tribune article: https://www.kokomotribune.com/news/local_news/indot-launches-us-31-corridor-improvement-study/article_0c4ede4a-2711-11ed-bbfc-8f31d9296990.html?utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR2hpieNiMnNQIUR5BJHVyG4oCVx_ySYDc0pXtgFHaRahi4O0_-U6x2xCJI
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: JREwing78 on September 05, 2022, 09:55:22 PM
Post by: JREwing78 on September 05, 2022, 09:55:22 PM
Some random notes from a trip up US-31 from Indianapolis this afternoon:
- The overpass construction at the railroad tracks just north of IN-28 was causing about a 4-mile backup in the southbound lanes, since right now the construction zone chokes down traffic to one lane in each direction. They certainly can't get that part finished fast enough.
- Otherwise, the upgrades between IN-38 and Kokomo to remove stoplights seem to be working well. I didn't have to make any stops on my way north until I got to IN-218 west just north of Grissom Air Base. It helps that traffic northbound was relatively lighter than southbound, which was basically bumper to bumper.
- Not bypassing Cassville while building out the Kokomo bypass seems short-sighted. Now InDOT has to figure out how to eliminate direct access to US-31 at some future point without completely isolating Cassville. Maybe it's ultimately cheaper than extending the bypass another mile or two, but it makes for a bit of a jarring re-entry into surface 4-lane from the fully limited access freeway bypass.
- At this point, the stoplights between Kokomo and Plymouth are going to stand out more and more as safety issues, as the lights farther south get removed. North of Grissom the wider ROW and limited driveway and side-road access makes it feel safer, but then *SURPRISE* here's a stoplight! I didn't time the yellow light duration, but coming down from full speed they feel a bit short. If not being forced to stop by other traffic, I notice truckers tend to blow through yellows even after a second or two after turning red.
- Besides removing stoplights, I would like InDOT to prioritize eliminating any side road/driveway access within at least 1/2 mile of the US-30 and US-24 interchanges. The US-24 interchange has a lot going on at each end, and US-30's interchange comes with relatively little warning coming northbound.
- The overpass construction at the railroad tracks just north of IN-28 was causing about a 4-mile backup in the southbound lanes, since right now the construction zone chokes down traffic to one lane in each direction. They certainly can't get that part finished fast enough.
- Otherwise, the upgrades between IN-38 and Kokomo to remove stoplights seem to be working well. I didn't have to make any stops on my way north until I got to IN-218 west just north of Grissom Air Base. It helps that traffic northbound was relatively lighter than southbound, which was basically bumper to bumper.
- Not bypassing Cassville while building out the Kokomo bypass seems short-sighted. Now InDOT has to figure out how to eliminate direct access to US-31 at some future point without completely isolating Cassville. Maybe it's ultimately cheaper than extending the bypass another mile or two, but it makes for a bit of a jarring re-entry into surface 4-lane from the fully limited access freeway bypass.
- At this point, the stoplights between Kokomo and Plymouth are going to stand out more and more as safety issues, as the lights farther south get removed. North of Grissom the wider ROW and limited driveway and side-road access makes it feel safer, but then *SURPRISE* here's a stoplight! I didn't time the yellow light duration, but coming down from full speed they feel a bit short. If not being forced to stop by other traffic, I notice truckers tend to blow through yellows even after a second or two after turning red.
- Besides removing stoplights, I would like InDOT to prioritize eliminating any side road/driveway access within at least 1/2 mile of the US-30 and US-24 interchanges. The US-24 interchange has a lot going on at each end, and US-30's interchange comes with relatively little warning coming northbound.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Alps on September 06, 2022, 07:53:19 PM
Post by: Alps on September 06, 2022, 07:53:19 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on September 05, 2022, 09:55:22 PMthat's cause in Illinois you have red light cameras many places but never in Indiana, so safe to keep going
- At this point, the stoplights between Kokomo and Plymouth are going to stand out more and more as safety issues, as the lights farther south get removed. North of Grissom the wider ROW and limited driveway and side-road access makes it feel safer, but then *SURPRISE* here's a stoplight! I didn't time the yellow light duration, but coming down from full speed they feel a bit short. If not being forced to stop by other traffic, I notice truckers tend to blow through yellows even after a second or two after turning red.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on October 02, 2022, 07:33:50 PM
Post by: monty on October 02, 2022, 07:33:50 PM
Norfolk Southern is replacing rail through the US 31 Tipton area. US 31 will be completely closed for periods over the next three days. So will parallel county roads. That'll be messy.
Good news is that the rail bridge project is coming along. At least one overhead span is up.
Meanwhile the two new Hamilton County interchanges are also well under way.
Good news is that the rail bridge project is coming along. At least one overhead span is up.
Meanwhile the two new Hamilton County interchanges are also well under way.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: JREwing78 on October 02, 2022, 11:44:57 PM
Post by: JREwing78 on October 02, 2022, 11:44:57 PM
Quote from: monty on October 02, 2022, 07:33:50 PM
Norfolk Southern is replacing rail through the US 31 Tipton area. US 31 will be completely closed for periods over the next three days. So will parallel county roads. That'll be messy.
Good news is that the rail bridge project is coming along. At least one overhead span is up.
NS couldn't have waited for the SBD US-31 overpass to open up before replacing that section of track? It's literally within a month or two of opening up!
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on October 03, 2022, 01:11:34 AM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on October 03, 2022, 01:11:34 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 02, 2022, 11:44:57 PMQuote from: monty on October 02, 2022, 07:33:50 PM
Norfolk Southern is replacing rail through the US 31 Tipton area. US 31 will be completely closed for periods over the next three days. So will parallel county roads. That'll be messy.
Good news is that the rail bridge project is coming along. At least one overhead span is up.
NS couldn't have waited for the SBD US-31 overpass to open up before replacing that section of track? It's literally within a month or two of opening up!
The crossing itself was really rough the last time I drove over it a few weeks ago, particularly heading southbound. We slowed down to around 10-15 mph to go over the bump.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on November 23, 2022, 05:05:43 PM
Post by: monty on November 23, 2022, 05:05:43 PM
Tipton County- The new bridge over the NS RR is now open for southbound US 31 traffic. The northbound traffic will continue on the old alignment this winter. One lane is open in each direction. Project completion perhaps a year out.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on November 23, 2022, 05:37:39 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on November 23, 2022, 05:37:39 PM
Quote from: monty on November 23, 2022, 05:05:43 PM
Tipton County- The new bridge over the NS RR is now open for southbound US 31 traffic. The northbound traffic will continue on the old alignment this winter. One lane is open in each direction. Project completion perhaps a year out.
I was up there and can confirm this. I also drove 28 and it is still signed in Tipton
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on November 25, 2022, 12:50:25 AM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on November 25, 2022, 12:50:25 AM
Looking at INDOT's construction map, here are the projects that will be happening on the US 31 corridor within the next few years (2023-2027) other than preservation maintenance (bridge deck overlay, concrete pavement restoration, etc.).
2023:
2024:
2025-2026: no major projects are currently scheduled
2027:
2023:
- Access Control from .46 mile North of State Route 38 to .6 mile south of 236th St
- New Bridge over US 31 at 226th Street
- New Interchange Construction at US 31 Business south of Peru? (not 100% sure/confirmed if this project is breaking ground next year)
- New Bridges Construction over Elkhart Western Railroad north of Argos
2024:
- Access Control from 3.0 miles N of SR 38 to SR 931
2025-2026: no major projects are currently scheduled
2027:
- New Bridge Construction at 700 N in Fulton County
- New Interchange Construction at SR 110 on the Fulton/Marshall County Line
- Access Control between 1.47mi S of SR 110 to 0.31mi S of SR 10 in Fulton and Marshall Counties
- New Interchange Construction at SR 10 in Argos
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: roadman65 on November 25, 2022, 02:43:00 AM
Post by: roadman65 on November 25, 2022, 02:43:00 AM
I was noticing that north of the intersections leaving Indy the mileage sign going NB that once read:
KOKOMO 29
SOUTH BEND 119
was never reinstalled.
I am guessing that engineers didn't think it was important enough to keep even though it could have been relocated.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4107/5042549163_71ecd32ef7_c.jpg)
KOKOMO 29
SOUTH BEND 119
was never reinstalled.
I am guessing that engineers didn't think it was important enough to keep even though it could have been relocated.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4107/5042549163_71ecd32ef7_c.jpg)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on November 25, 2022, 08:46:41 AM
Post by: tdindy88 on November 25, 2022, 08:46:41 AM
When US 31 was rebuilt in Hamilton County it was during INDOT's phase where they didn't include much mileage signs (see the US 31 bypass around Kokomo and most of I-69 south of Bloomington.) There's also a lot going on with exits close to each other and little room for the mileage signs anyway. One should have gone up north of SR 38 though. The upcoming interchange project at 236th Street will feature mileage signs and likely the first one heading north of Indianapolis. Kokomo and South Bend will be the destinations on that sign.
The first actual mileage sign is now found north of the SR 28 interchange in Tipton.
https://goo.gl/maps/CRiC3Suru4txuGZq6
The first actual mileage sign is now found north of the SR 28 interchange in Tipton.
https://goo.gl/maps/CRiC3Suru4txuGZq6
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on November 28, 2022, 10:06:14 PM
Post by: monty on November 28, 2022, 10:06:14 PM
Tipton County US 31 Public Information Meeting Dec 7 from 5-7 pm at the Tipton County Fairgrounds.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on November 29, 2022, 07:25:05 PM
Post by: monty on November 29, 2022, 07:25:05 PM
Link for ProPel US 31 meetings: https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/3395ece?mibextid=Zxz2cZ
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on November 30, 2022, 10:35:57 PM
Post by: monty on November 30, 2022, 10:35:57 PM
Please be prepared to allow more time for your travels through the City of Tipton as traffic patterns will be changing with the benefits of the State Road 28 relinquishment. We are taking measures to make our community a much safer place.
Within the next 90-120 days there should be a significant reduction in the non-local truck traffic utilizing Jefferson Street as it passes through our community.
Our goal of making the City of Tipton a much more inviting and pedestrian friendly community is making a huge leap forward with the removal of pass-through traffic on Jefferson Street and Main Street. Please continue to demonstrate the patience and courtesy that have always made Tipton a wonderful place to live and raise a family.
Source: Tipton Mayor and county sheriff office
Within the next 90-120 days there should be a significant reduction in the non-local truck traffic utilizing Jefferson Street as it passes through our community.
Our goal of making the City of Tipton a much more inviting and pedestrian friendly community is making a huge leap forward with the removal of pass-through traffic on Jefferson Street and Main Street. Please continue to demonstrate the patience and courtesy that have always made Tipton a wonderful place to live and raise a family.
Source: Tipton Mayor and county sheriff office
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on December 06, 2022, 10:15:47 PM
Post by: monty on December 06, 2022, 10:15:47 PM
US 31 Construction Traffic Update (Tipton County Sheriff)
Construction will continue however, all four lanes (both northbound and southbound) of US31 are now open! The intersection at Division Road is also open.
Division stoplight is active. - A bit of a surprise.
Construction will continue however, all four lanes (both northbound and southbound) of US31 are now open! The intersection at Division Road is also open.
Division stoplight is active. - A bit of a surprise.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on December 07, 2022, 09:04:59 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on December 07, 2022, 09:04:59 AM
Quote from: monty on December 06, 2022, 10:15:47 PM
US 31 Construction Traffic Update (Tipton County Sheriff)
Construction will continue however, all four lanes (both northbound and southbound) of US31 are now open! The intersection at Division Road is also open.
Division stoplight is active. - A bit of a surprise.
is SB on the bridge and NB on the old alignment?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: JREwing78 on December 07, 2022, 11:23:51 AM
Post by: JREwing78 on December 07, 2022, 11:23:51 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 07, 2022, 09:04:59 AMQuote from: monty on December 06, 2022, 10:15:47 PM
US 31 Construction Traffic Update (Tipton County Sheriff)
Construction will continue however, all four lanes (both northbound and southbound) of US31 are now open! The intersection at Division Road is also open.
Division stoplight is active. - A bit of a surprise.
is SB on the bridge and NB on the old alignment?
That would be the case. I'm assuming this is just temporary for the winter, and that next spring one lane each way will use the SBD bridge while the NBD bridge is constructed. Google street view on the NBD side at the railroad crossing shows imagery from earlier this summer showing the construction.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on February 22, 2023, 09:56:33 AM
Post by: ITB on February 22, 2023, 09:56:33 AM
The construction contract for the bridge that will take US 31 over the Elkhart Western RR in Marshall County has been awarded.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52703881042_93a94f5851_k.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52704924123_5236c2d6bc_k.jpg)
Google Maps/Streetview
This is the last at-grade railroad crossing on US 31 between Indianapolis and the Michigan state line. The new bridge will be a significant safety upgrade.
Phend & Brown, Inc., a longtime north central Indiana construction firm, was acquired (https://buildingindiana.com/rieth-riley-construction-acquires-phend-brown-inc/) by Rieth-Riley Construction Co., Inc., in December 2021.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on March 20, 2023, 04:09:10 PM
Post by: monty on March 20, 2023, 04:09:10 PM
Lane Restrictions and Shifts on U.S. 31 near Tetersburg
TIPTON COUNTY, Ind. - The Indiana Department of Transportation contractor Gradex Inc. announces lane restrictions and shifts on U.S. 31 near Tetersburg.
Beginning on or after, Monday, April 3, crews will place lane restrictions and shifts on U.S. 31 in both directions between S.R. 28 and Division Rd. through late September. The NB U.S. 31 traffic will decrease to a single lane and shift to the newly constructed SB passing lane. This traffic shift will start just north of S.R. 28 to Division Rd. The NB U.S. 31 traffic will then shift back to the existing NB lanes after Division Rd. The SB traffic will decrease to a single lane and shift to the newly constructed SB driving lane.
Division Rd. cross traffic will not be permitted to travel from east to west, but will be able to make right turns on to and off of U.S. 31.
TIPTON COUNTY, Ind. - The Indiana Department of Transportation contractor Gradex Inc. announces lane restrictions and shifts on U.S. 31 near Tetersburg.
Beginning on or after, Monday, April 3, crews will place lane restrictions and shifts on U.S. 31 in both directions between S.R. 28 and Division Rd. through late September. The NB U.S. 31 traffic will decrease to a single lane and shift to the newly constructed SB passing lane. This traffic shift will start just north of S.R. 28 to Division Rd. The NB U.S. 31 traffic will then shift back to the existing NB lanes after Division Rd. The SB traffic will decrease to a single lane and shift to the newly constructed SB driving lane.
Division Rd. cross traffic will not be permitted to travel from east to west, but will be able to make right turns on to and off of U.S. 31.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: someone17 on March 27, 2023, 06:52:51 PM
Post by: someone17 on March 27, 2023, 06:52:51 PM
It would be cool to see 31 as compliant with Interstate standards.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on April 01, 2023, 10:25:46 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on April 01, 2023, 10:25:46 AM
Quote from: someone17 on March 27, 2023, 06:52:51 PM
It would be cool to see 31 as compliant with Interstate standards.
The traffic counts between Plymouth and Peru really don't warrant it compared to the need to finish 6-laning I-65 and I-70.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: JREwing78 on April 02, 2023, 11:14:43 PM
Post by: JREwing78 on April 02, 2023, 11:14:43 PM
Quote from: someone17 on March 27, 2023, 06:52:51 PM
It would be cool to see 31 as compliant with Interstate standards.
InDOT's tiptoeing it's way to that eventuality, but it's going to take decades before it becomes reality. The biggest things they can do to improve safety is to keep eliminating stoplights and side-road access wherever they exist. Well, unless there's another Toll Road they can lease off to gullible investors.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on September 06, 2023, 04:53:47 AM
Post by: monty on September 06, 2023, 04:53:47 AM
Eminent domain being exercised on US 31 Hamilton County corridor: https://fox59.com/indiana-news/more-people-forced-to-move-as-indot-claims-eminent-domain-on-land-on-us-31/
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on September 06, 2023, 10:58:18 AM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on September 06, 2023, 10:58:18 AM
Quote from: monty on September 06, 2023, 04:53:47 AM
Eminent domain being exercised on US 31 Hamilton County corridor: https://fox59.com/indiana-news/more-people-forced-to-move-as-indot-claims-eminent-domain-on-land-on-us-31/
Not surprised that this is happening as INDOT is (slowly) upgrading US 31 to freeway standards, especially between Westfield and Kokomo where the traffic counts are higher than the rest of the corridor.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 06, 2023, 11:44:24 AM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 06, 2023, 11:44:24 AM
Relocations are always a part of highway improvements. One part of the story that caught my attention was the owner of Wilson Farm Market's understandable displeasure with having to relocate. If the 256th St. intersection was replaced with an underpass, would that still require the store to be relocated?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: cjw2001 on September 06, 2023, 01:39:58 PM
Post by: cjw2001 on September 06, 2023, 01:39:58 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 06, 2023, 11:44:24 AMDefinitely opinionated:
Relocations are always a part of highway improvements. One part of the story that caught my attention was the owner of Wilson Farm Market's understandable displeasure with having to relocate. If the 256th St. intersection was replaced with an underpass, would that still require the store to be relocated?
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1605537,-86.1278773,3a,15y,51.05h,88.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0iAbXyCLZrrnBIUtGm3m9Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?entry=ttu
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1609542,-86.1278763,3a,15y,138.31h,101.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szYbrXmlbzkqdxoOjgtg6Uw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?entry=ttu
It's not like he isn't being compensated for having to relocate. If the amount of compensation is inadequate to cover the relocation costs he has an argument - otherwise assuming the compensation is adequate I don't have much sympathy.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: JREwing78 on September 06, 2023, 09:33:51 PM
Post by: JREwing78 on September 06, 2023, 09:33:51 PM
Quote from: cjw2001 on September 06, 2023, 01:39:58 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on September 06, 2023, 11:44:24 AMDefinitely opinionated:
Relocations are always a part of highway improvements. One part of the story that caught my attention was the owner of Wilson Farm Market's understandable displeasure with having to relocate. If the 256th St. intersection was replaced with an underpass, would that still require the store to be relocated?
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1605537,-86.1278773,3a,15y,51.05h,88.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0iAbXyCLZrrnBIUtGm3m9Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?entry=ttu
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1609542,-86.1278763,3a,15y,138.31h,101.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szYbrXmlbzkqdxoOjgtg6Uw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?entry=ttu
It's not like he isn't being compensated for having to relocate. If the amount of compensation is inadequate to cover the relocation costs he has an argument - otherwise assuming the compensation is adequate I don't have much sympathy.
Smartest thing he could do is move two miles south or north to one of the new interchanges - let InDOT help him build a bigger store with a parking lot that doesn't require customers to cross the street when it's busy. It looks like he's courting public opinion to try to leverage a bigger payout - more power to him. Paying the owner to relocate was the cheaper option for InDOT v.s. giving him an interchange, and leaving it alone is not a tenable option, particularly after spending the money to cul-de-sac or overpass every other crossroad.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: bmeiser on September 06, 2023, 10:35:14 PM
Post by: bmeiser on September 06, 2023, 10:35:14 PM
The Wilson's own land on the other side of 31 and the other side of 256th street they can build on. They have loyal customers that will follow them wherever they go. They will be fine. All of their arguments in these articles are pointless. Start telling your customers you are moving and where you are going. They will follow you. The golf cart place, they will probably have a harder time relocating with the cost of land. Maybe instead of bitching, the Wilson's could work with these small businesses in the same boat and share some of their land. Rent it out to them for what they're paying now. I don't have any sympathy for them either. We drove by there earlier this summer and saw a pretty nasty crash at their intersection with a car flipped over. I think the safety of your customers is more important than a relocation. The longer you wait to start that process, the harder it's going to be.
Pixel 7
Pixel 7
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 06, 2023, 10:41:44 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 06, 2023, 10:41:44 PM
After the 236th St. and 276th St. interchanges are built, how many more signaled intersections would remain between Indianapolis and South Bend?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: bmeiser on September 06, 2023, 11:25:56 PM
Post by: bmeiser on September 06, 2023, 11:25:56 PM
If Division Rd continues to be RIRO, there will be 0 until you get north of Kokomo. North of there you have:
SR 18
SR 218 WB
Business 31
Miami CR 100N
So only 4 :-o
There are still a number of at-grade intersections with relatively busy roads, especially north of Rochester, but that will be all of the stoplights!
SR 18
SR 218 WB
Business 31
Miami CR 100N
So only 4 :-o
There are still a number of at-grade intersections with relatively busy roads, especially north of Rochester, but that will be all of the stoplights!
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on September 07, 2023, 12:52:59 AM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on September 07, 2023, 12:52:59 AM
Quote from: bmeiser on September 06, 2023, 11:25:56 PM
If Division Rd continues to be RIRO, there will be 0 until you get north of Kokomo. North of there you have:
SR 18
SR 218 WB
Business 31
Miami CR 100N
So only 4 :-o
There are still a number of at-grade intersections with relatively busy roads, especially north of Rochester, but that will be all of the stoplights!
The Division Road traffic light will be reactivated once the overpass at the railroad is fully completed and open to 4 lanes within the next couple of months... 1 stoplight between Indy and Kokomo + 4 stoplights north of Kokomo = 5 stoplights between Indy and South Bend.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: bmeiser on September 07, 2023, 01:42:08 AM
Post by: bmeiser on September 07, 2023, 01:42:08 AM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on September 07, 2023, 12:52:59 AMUgh, I hope INDOT and the county can come to an agreement on that damn intersection.Quote from: bmeiser on September 06, 2023, 11:25:56 PM
If Division Rd continues to be RIRO, there will be 0 until you get north of Kokomo. North of there you have:
SR 18
SR 218 WB
Business 31
Miami CR 100N
So only 4 :-o
There are still a number of at-grade intersections with relatively busy roads, especially north of Rochester, but that will be all of the stoplights!
The Division Road traffic light will be reactivated once the overpass at the railroad is fully completed and open to 4 lanes within the next couple of months... 1 stoplight between Indy and Kokomo + 4 stoplights north of Kokomo = 5 stoplights between Indy and South Bend.
Pixel 7
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: westerninterloper on September 07, 2023, 01:19:17 PM
Post by: westerninterloper on September 07, 2023, 01:19:17 PM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on September 07, 2023, 12:52:59 AMQuote from: bmeiser on September 06, 2023, 11:25:56 PM
If Division Rd continues to be RIRO, there will be 0 until you get north of Kokomo. North of there you have:
SR 18
SR 218 WB
Business 31
Miami CR 100N
So only 4 :-o
There are still a number of at-grade intersections with relatively busy roads, especially north of Rochester, but that will be all of the stoplights!
The Division Road traffic light will be reactivated once the overpass at the railroad is fully completed and open to 4 lanes within the next couple of months... 1 stoplight between Indy and Kokomo + 4 stoplights north of Kokomo = 5 stoplights between Indy and South Bend.
In some sense I think this becomes more dangerous at the grade crossings and traffic intersections as they become fewer - drivers become accustomed to freeway-type traffic and forget they are on an expressway. Hopefully all the at-grade crossings and traffic lights will be removed very soon. Similar situation on US 24 between Fort Wayne and Toledo, and US 23 between Toledo and Columbus.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: JREwing78 on September 07, 2023, 07:14:45 PM
Post by: JREwing78 on September 07, 2023, 07:14:45 PM
Quote from: westerninterloper on September 07, 2023, 01:19:17 PMQuote from: Great Lakes Roads on September 07, 2023, 12:52:59 AMQuote from: bmeiser on September 06, 2023, 11:25:56 PM
If Division Rd continues to be RIRO, there will be 0 until you get north of Kokomo. North of there you have:
SR 18
SR 218 WB
Business 31
Miami CR 100N
So only 4 :o
There are still a number of at-grade intersections with relatively busy roads, especially north of Rochester, but that will be all of the stoplights!
The Division Road traffic light will be reactivated once the overpass at the railroad is fully completed and open to 4 lanes within the next couple of months... 1 stoplight between Indy and Kokomo + 4 stoplights north of Kokomo = 5 stoplights between Indy and South Bend.
In some sense I think this becomes more dangerous at the grade crossings and traffic intersections as they become fewer - drivers become accustomed to freeway-type traffic and forget they are on an expressway. Hopefully all the at-grade crossings and traffic lights will be removed very soon. Similar situation on US 24 between Fort Wayne and Toledo, and US 23 between Toledo and Columbus.
You're absolutely correct. At the bare minimum, InDOT's focus should be on eliminating stoplights. If traffic is heavy enough, build an overpass. If it's not, convert the offending crossroad to a RIRO or cul-de-sac. No new stoplights, period.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Moose on September 08, 2023, 01:52:48 PM
Post by: Moose on September 08, 2023, 01:52:48 PM
If one was thinking right, and planning right.. US-31 north out of Indianapolis would cease to exist and become I-67, connecting it right to I-196...
I hear rumors that Indiana/INDOT once it isn't chasing so much I-69 construction past 2025, may turn their eye to bigger upgrades on the South Bend corridor.
No idea if Michigan would play ball on that idea.
I hear rumors that Indiana/INDOT once it isn't chasing so much I-69 construction past 2025, may turn their eye to bigger upgrades on the South Bend corridor.
No idea if Michigan would play ball on that idea.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on September 08, 2023, 03:02:24 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on September 08, 2023, 03:02:24 PM
Quote from: Moose on September 08, 2023, 01:52:48 PM
If one was thinking right, and planning right.. US-31 north out of Indianapolis would cease to exist and become I-67, connecting it right to I-196...
I hear rumors that Indiana/INDOT once it isn't chasing so much I-69 construction past 2025, may turn their eye to bigger upgrades on the South Bend corridor.
No idea if Michigan would play ball on that idea.
Upgrades between Plymouth and Kokomo are low priority compared to expanding I-65 and I-70 to six lanes.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on September 08, 2023, 06:47:13 PM
Post by: ITB on September 08, 2023, 06:47:13 PM
"Improvements to U.S. Highway 31 remain a priority for INDOT."
That's the headline for an commentary article (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/improvements-u-highway-31-remain-101858111.html) that appeared yesterday in the South Bend Tribune.
Edit: The piece in the Tribune is more advocacy and opinion, rather than a news report. So I've added the word "commentary."
That's the headline for an commentary article (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/improvements-u-highway-31-remain-101858111.html) that appeared yesterday in the South Bend Tribune.
Edit: The piece in the Tribune is more advocacy and opinion, rather than a news report. So I've added the word "commentary."
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 08, 2023, 08:31:46 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 08, 2023, 08:31:46 PM
Are they ever going to add exit numbers to the US 31 (and US 20) segments of the St. Joseph Valley Parkway? Since all the exits on 31 have been given exit numbers between Indianapolis and South Bend, they should also give exit numbers to the SJVP. After all, the exit numbers on the SJVP in Michigan are numbered.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on September 08, 2023, 09:16:15 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on September 08, 2023, 09:16:15 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 08, 2023, 08:31:46 PM
Are they ever going to add exit numbers to the US 31 (and US 20) segments of the St. Joseph Valley Parkway? Since all the exits on 31 have been given exit numbers between Indianapolis and South Bend, they should also give exit numbers to the SJVP. After all, the exit numbers on the SJVP in Michigan are numbered.
that segment is actually US 20 (since the lower number generally takes mileage priority) so it would get 20's mileage until 20 leaves on the west side of town.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on September 09, 2023, 02:07:10 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on September 09, 2023, 02:07:10 AM
Quote from: ITB on September 08, 2023, 06:47:13 PMIsn't priority referring to removing all the traffic signals, and improving Kokomo and Indianapolis to limited access?
"Improvements to U.S. Highway 31 remain a priority for INDOT."
That's the headline for an commentary article (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/improvements-u-highway-31-remain-101858111.html) that appeared yesterday in the South Bend Tribune.
Edit: The piece in the Tribune is more advocacy and opinion, rather than a news report. So I've added the word "commentary."
I imagine the rural stretches in between Kokomo and Plymouth are lower priority.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on September 09, 2023, 08:46:39 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on September 09, 2023, 08:46:39 PM
I think US 31 will look a lot like US 127 in Michigan. full freeway with a gap that has no signals that doesn't seem to impede with through traffic.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on September 09, 2023, 10:43:10 PM
Post by: monty on September 09, 2023, 10:43:10 PM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on September 07, 2023, 12:52:59 AMQuote from: bmeiser on September 06, 2023, 11:25:56 PM
If Division Rd continues to be RIRO, there will be 0 until you get north of Kokomo. North of there you have:
SR 18
SR 218 WB
Business 31
Miami CR 100N
So only 4 :-o
There are still a number of at-grade intersections with relatively busy roads, especially north of Rochester, but that will be all of the stoplights!
The Division Road traffic light will be reactivated once the overpass at the railroad is fully completed and open to 4 lanes within the next couple of months... 1 stoplight between Indy and Kokomo + 4 stoplights north of Kokomo = 5 stoplights between Indy and South Bend.
Tipton County is going through the PEL study and we should see some results in 2024. https://propelus31.com/ With Hamilton County section to be completely freeway to the Tipton County line by 2025, the PEL study should dictate the next steps in Tipton County and the Division Road stoplight. I'd bet that any upgrades through Tipton County to Howard County will be essentially completed by 2028 - 2030 with a minimum expressway standard of no stops and no crossing traffic.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on September 10, 2023, 12:08:17 AM
Post by: ITB on September 10, 2023, 12:08:17 AM
Public meetings were held in June for the ProPel US 31 study. The are actually two study areas: (1) US 31 North, from the Eel River in Miami County to just south of Fulton/Marshal County line, and (2) US 31 South, 276th Street in Hamilton County to just south of the Eel River.
Here's video of the public meeting presentation for US 31 North:
And for US 31 South:
And, for those interested in delving deeper in the US 31 Propel study, here are links to the Draft Purpose & Need Reports for US 31 North (https://propelus31.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/US31NPEL_DraftPurposeAndNeed_RP_WEB.pdf) and for US 31 South (https://propelus31.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/US31SPEL_DraftPurposeAndNeed_RP_WEB.pdf), both issued in early June.
Comments are still being accepted for the study. Right now is the time to submit suggestions for interchange and overpass locations, local access roads, and so on. Here's the link to submit comments. (https://propelus31.com/#GetInvolved) If you feel you have something to contribute by all means do so.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on September 10, 2023, 03:33:22 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on September 10, 2023, 03:33:22 PM
the Hamilton co section ends at 286th right? the 296th intersection has a cemetery that will be an issue to work around. Division between 31 and 19 should just be 28 to avoid the weird route it has now going up to 26 and down 19
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on September 10, 2023, 05:14:51 PM
Post by: ITB on September 10, 2023, 05:14:51 PM
Food for thought. Instead of building an interchange at Division Road in Tipton County, build it two miles to the north at 200N. 200N could then be upgraded to an arterial, serving the central area of the county. Moreover, it would eliminate the large access gap to 31 between the interchange at US 28 and the Kokomo bypass. Division Road could then be sealed off, with future consideration given for an overpass.
At 296th Street, to avoid the cemetery, 296th Street will likely be shifted to the north. Either a folded diamond interchange or a parclo would seem to work there. Roundabouts? Probably, considering the current mania.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on September 10, 2023, 07:50:30 PM
Post by: monty on September 10, 2023, 07:50:30 PM
Division Road from US 31 to IN 19 has been signed as Truck 28 - just a few months ago in a city - county - state agreement. While parallel to IN 28, Division Road carries a good amount of traffic from Frankfort to Elwood. It's by far Tipton County's most improved road. It traverses the entire county with an asphalt or concrete surface carrying about 2500 vehicles per day and probably more as the Tipton truck ban becomes enforced. INDOT proposed a RIRO and would also allow sn interchange if the county paid for most of it. The county can't afford that large of an investment. RIRO is a disadvantage to local companies with truck traffic. Thus yet another study. Tipton County has only 15,000 citizens.
I hope the Propel study will identify a northern Tipton County exchange of some sort. At the public Propel meeting this summer, preliminary results revealed a lot of interest in the Sharpsville area (450N - 550N). Traffic studies indicated current issues in that area ranking among the top in the non-improved corridor.
I hope the Propel study will identify a northern Tipton County exchange of some sort. At the public Propel meeting this summer, preliminary results revealed a lot of interest in the Sharpsville area (450N - 550N). Traffic studies indicated current issues in that area ranking among the top in the non-improved corridor.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 10, 2023, 07:58:40 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 10, 2023, 07:58:40 PM
On Google Maps, IN 28 is listed as both W. Old Route 28 and W. Route 28 (as well as W. 200 S.) east of the US 31 interchange. Why would they list the roadway as old Route 28 and Route 28 simultaneously?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on September 10, 2023, 08:18:06 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on September 10, 2023, 08:18:06 PM
Quote from: ITB on September 10, 2023, 05:14:51 PM
Food for thought. Instead of building an interchange at Division Road in Tipton County, build it two miles to the north at 200N. 200N could then be upgraded to an arterial, serving the central area of the county. Moreover, it would eliminate the large access gap to 31 between the interchange at US 28 and the Kokomo bypass. Division Road could then be sealed off, with future consideration given for an overpass.
At 296th Street, to avoid the cemetery, 296th Street will likely be shifted to the north. Either a folded diamond interchange or a parclo would seem to work there. Roundabouts? Probably, considering the current mania.
Honestly, there should have been interchanges at 296th and 266th Streets. Which would have provided direct links from US 31 to Atlanta and Arcadia respectively. Instead we get to have one at 276th Street because Reynolds Farm Equipment is apparently that important. No wonder the Wilson's people are furious, INDOT IS favoring some businesses.
Point is, they'll probably skip the 296th interchange and see 276th as serving both 266th and 296th Streets. I get the feeling that the 276th Street exit will end up being the only one between 236th and SR 28. I mean it shouldn't, but that's what I think will ultimately happen.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on September 10, 2023, 08:54:18 PM
Post by: monty on September 10, 2023, 08:54:18 PM
Beck's Hybrids is on 276th. They have a huge company campus complex, generating a lot of employees, and a lot of truck traffic. The road has been totally rebuilt in anticipation of US 31 improvements. Beck's Hybrids
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EP31j4VLBs93oeTJA?g_st=ic
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EP31j4VLBs93oeTJA?g_st=ic
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on September 10, 2023, 09:23:01 PM
Post by: ITB on September 10, 2023, 09:23:01 PM
Quote from: monty on September 10, 2023, 07:50:30 PM
Division Road from US 31 to IN 19 has been signed as Truck 28 - just a few months ago in a city - county - state agreement. While parallel to IN 28, Division Road carries a good amount of traffic from Frankfort to Elwood. It's by far Tipton County's most improved road. It traverses the entire county with an asphalt or concrete surface carrying about 2500 vehicles per day and probably more as the Tipton truck ban becomes enforced. INDOT proposed a RIRO and would also allow sn interchange if the county paid for most of it. The county can't afford that large of an investment. RIRO is a disadvantage to local companies with truck traffic. Thus yet another study. Tipton County has only 15,000 citizens.
I hope the Propel study will identify a northern Tipton County exchange of some sort. At the public Propel meeting this summer, preliminary results revealed a lot of interest in the Sharpsville area (450N - 550N). Traffic studies indicated current issues in that area ranking among the top in the non-improved corridor.
Thanks for this informed response. I wasn't aware Division Road had been designated a truck corridor. The AADT of 2500 also was an eye opener. Given those facts, sealing off Division Road is a non-starter. So, going forward, the US 31/Division intersection will need to be upgraded to either an interchange or a grade-separated overpass.
To increase local and regional mobility, Tipton County needs two US 31 interchanges. The interchange at SR 28 alone will not suffice. If the second interchange is built at Division Road, both interchanges will be the southern part of the county, and worse, very close together. The second interchange needs to be in either the central or northern sector of the county. An interchange at 200N may be a more equitable solution, all the more so if 200N is upgraded to an arterial. Being located in the center of the county, an interchange at 200N will draw traffic from areas to the east and west, as well as the northern sector of the county. Possible interchange locations further north are more problematic. County Road 550N is perhaps too close to the Kokomo bypass, while 450N doesn't extend completely through the county. Neither does 200N, for that matter, but, of significance, 200N extends east to SR 213 and beyond. If 200N is upgraded to an arterial, it will significantly enhance cross-county mobility, complementing Division Road. At the same time, an overpass at Division is necessary, too, to maintain mobility and boost equity.
So, an equitable solution that provides increased local and regional mobility is to construct an overpass at Division and an interchange at 200N.
With robust growth continuing to the south in Hamilton County, it is only a matter of time before development begins to spill over into Tipton County. It might be 10 years out or, perhaps, 20. But the development is coming. At this time, almost all of Indiana's population growth is occurring in the Indianapolis metropolitan region. Development has boomed in the north and northwest sectors of the region – to be specific, in Hamilton and Boone counties. Tipton County is on the border of this growing north side sector. Soon it may be in it.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on September 10, 2023, 09:26:40 PM
Post by: ITB on September 10, 2023, 09:26:40 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on September 10, 2023, 08:18:06 PM
Honestly, there should have been interchanges at 296th and 266th Streets. Which would have provided direct links from US 31 to Atlanta and Arcadia respectively. Instead we get to have one at 276th Street because Reynolds Farm Equipment is apparently that important. No wonder the Wilson's people are furious, INDOT IS favoring some businesses.
Point is, they'll probably skip the 296th interchange and see 276th as serving both 266th and 296th Streets. I get the feeling that the 276th Street exit will end up being the only one between 236th and SR 28. I mean it shouldn't, but that's what I think will ultimately happen.
Development is continuing to push north in Hamilton. That makes me think an interchange at 296th is more likely than not.
Update: On second thought, you'll probably right. The ProPEL study, in all likelihood, won't find a need for an interchange at 296th. An overpass is more likely to be recommended. But, but, but ... the northward growth that is underway in Hamilton County may make an interchange at 296th a necessity in the not too distant future, particularly if development begins to creep into Tipton. Give it 10 years.
Edit: Added update.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on September 11, 2023, 08:33:02 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on September 11, 2023, 08:33:02 AM
Quote from: ITB on September 10, 2023, 09:26:40 PMQuote from: tdindy88 on September 10, 2023, 08:18:06 PM
Honestly, there should have been interchanges at 296th and 266th Streets. Which would have provided direct links from US 31 to Atlanta and Arcadia respectively. Instead we get to have one at 276th Street because Reynolds Farm Equipment is apparently that important. No wonder the Wilson's people are furious, INDOT IS favoring some businesses.
Point is, they'll probably skip the 296th interchange and see 276th as serving both 266th and 296th Streets. I get the feeling that the 276th Street exit will end up being the only one between 236th and SR 28. I mean it shouldn't, but that's what I think will ultimately happen.
Development is continuing to push north in Hamilton. That makes me think an interchange at 296th is more likely than not.
Update: On second thought, you'll probably right. The ProPEL study, in all likelihood, won't find a need for an interchange at 296th. An overpass is more likely to be recommended. But, but, but ... the northward growth that is underway in Hamilton County may make an interchange at 296th a necessity in the not too distant future, particularly if development begins to creep into Tipton. Give it 10 years.
Edit: Added update.
I don't know if any traffic studies got done on all the roads between 256th and 296th to see which ones had the highest counts. The fact that 276th doesn't even go all the way over to IN 19 suggests that traffic counts weren't a factor in deciding where to put an interchange.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on September 11, 2023, 06:16:41 PM
Post by: monty on September 11, 2023, 06:16:41 PM
The US 31 Propel study doesn't include Hamilton County. The Hamilton County plan is already set. The Propel study covers the corridor from the Tipton -Hamilton County line north to Tipton County 550 N and then again from The completed Kokomo segment north to Plymouth.
I believe Hamilton County invested heavily into the last two interchanges currently under construction.
I believe Hamilton County invested heavily into the last two interchanges currently under construction.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on September 11, 2023, 06:49:13 PM
Post by: ITB on September 11, 2023, 06:49:13 PM
Actually, according to the ProPEL 31 website, the northern part of Hamilton County is included.
"The ProPEL US 31 south study area extends from 276th street in Hamilton County to just south of Eel River in Miami County."
https://propelus31.com/us-31-south/
And in more detail:
"This Purpose and Need Report is being prepared for the ProPEL US 31 South study. The ProPEL US 31 South study
area includes US 31 from approximately 276 th Street in Hamilton County north to the State Route (SR) 931 south
junction in Tipton County, and from the SR 931 north junction in Howard County north to County Road (CR) West
300 North in Miami County. As previously mentioned, the US 31 Kokomo bypass is excluded from the ProPEL US 31
South study."
https://propelus31.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/US31SPEL_DraftPurposeAndNeed_RP_WEB.pdf
"The ProPEL US 31 south study area extends from 276th street in Hamilton County to just south of Eel River in Miami County."
https://propelus31.com/us-31-south/
And in more detail:
"This Purpose and Need Report is being prepared for the ProPEL US 31 South study. The ProPEL US 31 South study
area includes US 31 from approximately 276 th Street in Hamilton County north to the State Route (SR) 931 south
junction in Tipton County, and from the SR 931 north junction in Howard County north to County Road (CR) West
300 North in Miami County. As previously mentioned, the US 31 Kokomo bypass is excluded from the ProPEL US 31
South study."
https://propelus31.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/US31SPEL_DraftPurposeAndNeed_RP_WEB.pdf
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on September 11, 2023, 09:20:16 PM
Post by: monty on September 11, 2023, 09:20:16 PM
Thanks for clarifying. So really the last 1.5 - 2.0 miles of northern Hamilton County is still in play with the ProPEL US 31 study. It will be interesting to see what happens at county line / 296th / 600 S with the church building and cemetery there. Since it's a county line road, Tipton County is responsible for the maintenance. I doubt Hamilton County will invest as they have elsewhere. Thinking an over pass pushed north to avoid the cemetery makes sense or a RIRO if INDOT decides to stop the interstate standard near that area.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: cjw2001 on October 03, 2023, 07:20:05 PM
Post by: cjw2001 on October 03, 2023, 07:20:05 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on September 06, 2023, 09:33:51 PMQuote from: cjw2001 on September 06, 2023, 01:39:58 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on September 06, 2023, 11:44:24 AMDefinitely opinionated:
Relocations are always a part of highway improvements. One part of the story that caught my attention was the owner of Wilson Farm Market's understandable displeasure with having to relocate. If the 256th St. intersection was replaced with an underpass, would that still require the store to be relocated?
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1605537,-86.1278773,3a,15y,51.05h,88.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0iAbXyCLZrrnBIUtGm3m9Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?entry=ttu
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1609542,-86.1278763,3a,15y,138.31h,101.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szYbrXmlbzkqdxoOjgtg6Uw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?entry=ttu
It's not like he isn't being compensated for having to relocate. If the amount of compensation is inadequate to cover the relocation costs he has an argument - otherwise assuming the compensation is adequate I don't have much sympathy.
Smartest thing he could do is move two miles south or north to one of the new interchanges - let InDOT help him build a bigger store with a parking lot that doesn't require customers to cross the street when it's busy. It looks like he's courting public opinion to try to leverage a bigger payout - more power to him. Paying the owner to relocate was the cheaper option for InDOT v.s. giving him an interchange, and leaving it alone is not a tenable option, particularly after spending the money to cul-de-sac or overpass every other crossroad.
Well in the careful what you ask for department - it looks like INDOT has withdrawn their intent to take the property via eminent domain. Instead of being able to relocate with financial assistance he will likely be stuck with no direct easy access to the untouched business.
https://fox59-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/fox59.com/news/indot-withdraws-eminent-domain-in-hamilton-county-wilson-farm-market-building-to-stay-put/amp/?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQGsAEggAID#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16963748658186&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Ffox59.com%2Fnews%2Findot-withdraws-eminent-domain-in-hamilton-county-wilson-farm-market-building-to-stay-put%2F
https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-news/wilsons-farm-market-building-to-stay-put-after-indot-withdraws-eminent-domain
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on October 03, 2023, 07:50:52 PM
Post by: ITB on October 03, 2023, 07:50:52 PM
Quote from: cjw2001 on October 03, 2023, 07:20:05 PMQuote from: JREwing78 on September 06, 2023, 09:33:51 PMQuote from: cjw2001 on September 06, 2023, 01:39:58 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on September 06, 2023, 11:44:24 AMDefinitely opinionated:
Relocations are always a part of highway improvements. One part of the story that caught my attention was the owner of Wilson Farm Market's understandable displeasure with having to relocate. If the 256th St. intersection was replaced with an underpass, would that still require the store to be relocated?
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1605537,-86.1278773,3a,15y,51.05h,88.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0iAbXyCLZrrnBIUtGm3m9Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?entry=ttu
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1609542,-86.1278763,3a,15y,138.31h,101.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szYbrXmlbzkqdxoOjgtg6Uw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?entry=ttu
It's not like he isn't being compensated for having to relocate. If the amount of compensation is inadequate to cover the relocation costs he has an argument - otherwise assuming the compensation is adequate I don't have much sympathy.
Smartest thing he could do is move two miles south or north to one of the new interchanges - let InDOT help him build a bigger store with a parking lot that doesn't require customers to cross the street when it's busy. It looks like he's courting public opinion to try to leverage a bigger payout - more power to him. Paying the owner to relocate was the cheaper option for InDOT v.s. giving him an interchange, and leaving it alone is not a tenable option, particularly after spending the money to cul-de-sac or overpass every other crossroad.
Well in the careful what you ask for department - it looks like INDOT has withdrawn their intent to take the property via eminent domain. Instead of being able to relocate with financial assistance he will likely be stuck with no direct easy access to the untouched business.
https://fox59-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/fox59.com/news/indot-withdraws-eminent-domain-in-hamilton-county-wilson-farm-market-building-to-stay-put/amp/?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQGsAEggAID#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16963748658186&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Ffox59.com%2Fnews%2Findot-withdraws-eminent-domain-in-hamilton-county-wilson-farm-market-building-to-stay-put%2F
https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-news/wilsons-farm-market-building-to-stay-put-after-indot-withdraws-eminent-domain
Indeed, as soon as 256th Street is sealed off from US 31, it's going to be struggle for this business to remain viable. In the commercial real estate industry, holdouts who refuse to sell to an entity that is putting together an assemblage are known as "spikes." Sometimes it gets pretty crazy. In the end, however, the spikes tend to lose out as their property falls in value because it can't be developed fully. Not exactly the same case with the Wilson Family Market, but by refusing to work with INDOT the future doesn't look particularly bright for this business. Maybe the end of the eminent domain process is the first step toward a compromise deal.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on October 03, 2023, 08:26:54 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on October 03, 2023, 08:26:54 PM
his business may stay open, but business will suffer when the road closes perminately.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on October 04, 2023, 12:52:54 PM
Post by: monty on October 04, 2023, 12:52:54 PM
All three current US 31 projects in Tipton and Hamilton counties are making great progress. Noticed yesterday the the northbound lanes over the NS RR are complete with pavement markings and soon to open. Crews sewing grass seed and working on the frontage road.
Bakers Corner interchange is mostly complete with the exception of the drainage ditch and the northbound on ramp.
Bakers Corner interchange is mostly complete with the exception of the drainage ditch and the northbound on ramp.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Moose on October 04, 2023, 01:10:38 PM
Post by: Moose on October 04, 2023, 01:10:38 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 03, 2023, 08:26:54 PM
his business may stay open, but business will suffer when the road closes perminately.
He wants an exit there, and seems willing to sell if Indot will put an exit there.
In the end, I think they will design around it and leave him on a road with a dead end/overpass with no connection to 31. Perhaps even go to the expense of one of the ones with retaining walls to minimize the footprint, since he owns land on both sides and does have INDOT hemmed in.
He bit the hand that was going to feed him, and Indot will just work around him to spite him.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on October 04, 2023, 04:35:25 PM
Post by: monty on October 04, 2023, 04:35:25 PM
A little more detail on the Wilson's saga here: https://www.insideindianabusiness.com/articles/indot-reverses-us-31-farm-market-eminent-domain-owner-says-fight-not-over?utm_source=inside-edge-midday-report&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=2023-10-04
"Now the shackles are off," Wilson said in the Facebook Live. "We're not going anywhere, and I'm going to keep raising all kinds of hell."
"Now the shackles are off," Wilson said in the Facebook Live. "We're not going anywhere, and I'm going to keep raising all kinds of hell."
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 04, 2023, 05:18:12 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 04, 2023, 05:18:12 PM
Maybe they could build frontage roads along US 31 between the new interchanges. They will need to build some kind of local road connectors to link the various homes and businesses that will no longer be able to be directly accessed from US 31 itself.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on October 04, 2023, 05:55:00 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on October 04, 2023, 05:55:00 PM
You could just go one mile east to Anthony Road and take that either north to 276th Street or south to 236th Street. It's a little out of the way but for access to US 31 in the future that's what people who live in that area are going to have to do. Just as people in Morgan County have gotten used to using various roads to access various exits along the new I-69. Dude needs to understand that there is never or ever was going to be an exit at 256th.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: JREwing78 on October 04, 2023, 11:04:17 PM
Post by: JREwing78 on October 04, 2023, 11:04:17 PM
Quote from: monty on October 04, 2023, 04:35:25 PM
A little more detail on the Wilson's saga here: https://www.insideindianabusiness.com/articles/indot-reverses-us-31-farm-market-eminent-domain-owner-says-fight-not-over?utm_source=inside-edge-midday-report&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=2023-10-04 (https://www.insideindianabusiness.com/articles/indot-reverses-us-31-farm-market-eminent-domain-owner-says-fight-not-over?utm_source=inside-edge-midday-report&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=2023-10-04)
Wilson better hope like hell he gets enough public support to get that interchange put in at 256th. Otherwise, this is a Pyrrhic victory at best.
Wilson (the owner) strikes me as a bit of a knucklehead. His claim that "It was never about the building" is weird and hard to take seriously. Ditto for his claim about not receiving an offer for the property; they can't legally just take the land out from under him without payment. His claim that he only found out about INDOT's intentions at a public meeting and "not given an avenue to give direct feedback". Um, bulls***. The public meeting's purpose is to communicate their intentions and get feedback, and obviously they got it.
Ultimately Wilson wants INDOT to build a new interchange at 256th, with his market right there where it always has been, so he can continue his cash cow and folks won't get lost trying to find him. He's trying to deflect criticism by making it sound like INDOT's being a bully, rallying populist support. But his business is ultimately subsidized by the major highway people's taxes have paid for, and it's profited off of an intersection that's grown more deadly and dangerous by the year. He's not exactly an innocent bystander.
Hopefully INDOT is able to absorb the extra expense of an interchange here without unduly delaying future efforts to improve US-31 north of the market.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on October 04, 2023, 11:22:34 PM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on October 04, 2023, 11:22:34 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 04, 2023, 11:04:17 PMQuote from: monty on October 04, 2023, 04:35:25 PM
A little more detail on the Wilson's saga here: https://www.insideindianabusiness.com/articles/indot-reverses-us-31-farm-market-eminent-domain-owner-says-fight-not-over?utm_source=inside-edge-midday-report&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=2023-10-04 (https://www.insideindianabusiness.com/articles/indot-reverses-us-31-farm-market-eminent-domain-owner-says-fight-not-over?utm_source=inside-edge-midday-report&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=2023-10-04)
Wilson better hope like hell he gets enough public support to get that interchange put in at 256th. Otherwise, this is a Pyrrhic victory at best.
Wilson (the owner) strikes me as a bit of a knucklehead. His claim that "It was never about the building" is weird and hard to take seriously. Ditto for his claim about not receiving an offer for the property; they can't legally just take the land out from under him without payment. His claim that he only found out about INDOT's intentions at a public meeting and "not given an avenue to give direct feedback". Um, bulls***. The public meeting's purpose is to communicate their intentions and get feedback, and obviously they got it.
Ultimately Wilson wants INDOT to build a new interchange at 256th, with his market right there where it always has been, so he can continue his cash cow and folks won't get lost trying to find him. He's trying to deflect criticism by making it sound like INDOT's being a bully, rallying populist support. But his business is ultimately subsidized by the major highway people's taxes have paid for, and it's profited off of an intersection that's grown more deadly and dangerous by the year. He's not exactly an innocent bystander.
Hopefully INDOT is able to absorb the extra expense of an interchange here without unduly delaying future efforts to improve US-31 north of the market.
It's about 4 miles between 236th and 276th Street interchanges... 256th street would be 2 miles between those interchanges, but knowing INDOT, they probably will go with the status quo with some minor changes...
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on October 05, 2023, 08:46:33 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on October 05, 2023, 08:46:33 AM
they won't add an exit at 256th and even if they did they would have to take his property to do it :-D
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: webny99 on October 05, 2023, 09:17:18 AM
Post by: webny99 on October 05, 2023, 09:17:18 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 05, 2023, 08:46:33 AM
they won't add an exit at 256th and even if they did they would have to take his property to do it :-D
Yes, unless it was a folded diamond with the NB on/off ramps located on the south side.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on October 05, 2023, 09:22:49 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on October 05, 2023, 09:22:49 AM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on October 04, 2023, 11:22:34 PMQuote from: JREwing78 on October 04, 2023, 11:04:17 PMQuote from: monty on October 04, 2023, 04:35:25 PM
A little more detail on the Wilson's saga here: https://www.insideindianabusiness.com/articles/indot-reverses-us-31-farm-market-eminent-domain-owner-says-fight-not-over?utm_source=inside-edge-midday-report&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=2023-10-04 (https://www.insideindianabusiness.com/articles/indot-reverses-us-31-farm-market-eminent-domain-owner-says-fight-not-over?utm_source=inside-edge-midday-report&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=2023-10-04)
Wilson better hope like hell he gets enough public support to get that interchange put in at 256th. Otherwise, this is a Pyrrhic victory at best.
Wilson (the owner) strikes me as a bit of a knucklehead. His claim that "It was never about the building" is weird and hard to take seriously. Ditto for his claim about not receiving an offer for the property; they can't legally just take the land out from under him without payment. His claim that he only found out about INDOT's intentions at a public meeting and "not given an avenue to give direct feedback". Um, bulls***. The public meeting's purpose is to communicate their intentions and get feedback, and obviously they got it.
Ultimately Wilson wants INDOT to build a new interchange at 256th, with his market right there where it always has been, so he can continue his cash cow and folks won't get lost trying to find him. He's trying to deflect criticism by making it sound like INDOT's being a bully, rallying populist support. But his business is ultimately subsidized by the major highway people's taxes have paid for, and it's profited off of an intersection that's grown more deadly and dangerous by the year. He's not exactly an innocent bystander.
Hopefully INDOT is able to absorb the extra expense of an interchange here without unduly delaying future efforts to improve US-31 north of the market.
It's about 4 miles between 236th and 276th Street interchanges... 256th street would be 2 miles between those interchanges, but knowing INDOT, they probably will go with the status quo with some minor changes...
266th was the logical choice for an interchange instead of 276th, but apparently the owner of Reynolds Farm Equipment has some pull with INDOT.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on October 05, 2023, 01:09:44 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on October 05, 2023, 01:09:44 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 05, 2023, 09:22:49 AMQuote from: Great Lakes Roads on October 04, 2023, 11:22:34 PMQuote from: JREwing78 on October 04, 2023, 11:04:17 PMQuote from: monty on October 04, 2023, 04:35:25 PM
A little more detail on the Wilson's saga here: https://www.insideindianabusiness.com/articles/indot-reverses-us-31-farm-market-eminent-domain-owner-says-fight-not-over?utm_source=inside-edge-midday-report&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=2023-10-04 (https://www.insideindianabusiness.com/articles/indot-reverses-us-31-farm-market-eminent-domain-owner-says-fight-not-over?utm_source=inside-edge-midday-report&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=2023-10-04)
Wilson better hope like hell he gets enough public support to get that interchange put in at 256th. Otherwise, this is a Pyrrhic victory at best.
Wilson (the owner) strikes me as a bit of a knucklehead. His claim that "It was never about the building" is weird and hard to take seriously. Ditto for his claim about not receiving an offer for the property; they can't legally just take the land out from under him without payment. His claim that he only found out about INDOT's intentions at a public meeting and "not given an avenue to give direct feedback". Um, bulls***. The public meeting's purpose is to communicate their intentions and get feedback, and obviously they got it.
Ultimately Wilson wants INDOT to build a new interchange at 256th, with his market right there where it always has been, so he can continue his cash cow and folks won't get lost trying to find him. He's trying to deflect criticism by making it sound like INDOT's being a bully, rallying populist support. But his business is ultimately subsidized by the major highway people's taxes have paid for, and it's profited off of an intersection that's grown more deadly and dangerous by the year. He's not exactly an innocent bystander.
Hopefully INDOT is able to absorb the extra expense of an interchange here without unduly delaying future efforts to improve US-31 north of the market.
It's about 4 miles between 236th and 276th Street interchanges... 256th street would be 2 miles between those interchanges, but knowing INDOT, they probably will go with the status quo with some minor changes...
266th was the logical choice for an interchange instead of 276th, but apparently the owner of Reynolds Farm Equipment has some pull with INDOT.
276th traverses the entire county (they recently connected 281st to complete this) and has a major company on it. 266th does neither, hence the no exit at 266th.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: SEWIGuy on October 05, 2023, 01:29:29 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on October 05, 2023, 01:29:29 PM
Quote from: monty on October 04, 2023, 04:35:25 PM
A little more detail on the Wilson's saga here: https://www.insideindianabusiness.com/articles/indot-reverses-us-31-farm-market-eminent-domain-owner-says-fight-not-over?utm_source=inside-edge-midday-report&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=2023-10-04
"Now the shackles are off," Wilson said in the Facebook Live. "We're not going anywhere, and I'm going to keep raising all kinds of hell."
LOL....
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 05, 2023, 03:28:08 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 05, 2023, 03:28:08 PM
This Wilson guy has said his piece. I doubt it will change the plans to that segment of the US 31 corridor one bit. Have the owners of the Kasi Cafe and the Indiana Golf Car Club Car Dealer on the east side of the US 31/E. 266th St. intersection raised a similar ruckus about the proposed overpass being constructed over US 31?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: jnewkirk77 on October 05, 2023, 03:32:21 PM
Post by: jnewkirk77 on October 05, 2023, 03:32:21 PM
I don't feel a bit sorry for him. I question how he got the OK to enclose what used to be an open-sided shelter so close to the property line. Most places have setback requirements, but I haven't found what they are in Hamilton County. He's spent a lot of money sprucing up the place knowing full well all along that they've been talking upgrades to 31 for years.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on October 10, 2023, 10:36:37 PM
Post by: monty on October 10, 2023, 10:36:37 PM
One Northbound lane is now open over the NS RR bridge. Looks like the project is wrapping up. It will be interesting to see traffic respond to the re-activated stoplight at Division Road. I can't think it'll be very safe there.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on October 12, 2023, 08:06:45 PM
Post by: ITB on October 12, 2023, 08:06:45 PM
Couple of tidbits to share:
Another Battery Factory Planned for Kokomo
Yesterday, news broke that Stellantis and Samsung SDI plan to build (https://fox59.com/indiana-news/stellantis-samsung-sdi-to-invest-3-2b-for-2nd-kokomo-ev-battery-plant/) a second battery plant in Kokomo. Each facility, when fully built out, is expected to employ 1,400. While these plans do not directly apply to US 31 and its possible upgrades, they have an indirect impact as the population in Howard and Tipton counties is likely to increase if the factories come to fruition. And, of course, a larger population means more traffic, which then leads to road expansions and other mobility improvements.
US31/256th Street and the Wilson Farm Market
In regards to the Wilson Farm Market issue, I came across an interesting news piece (https://www.wishtv.com/news/local-news/arcadia-business-owner-questions-us-31-project/) from October 2020. In it, Hamilton County Commissioner Mark Heirbrandt is reported as noting the county's comprehensive plan shows an "access" at 256th Street. Bear in mind, this news report was from three years ago, so things may have changed since then. Also, it doesn't mention the date of the comprehensive plan, so that, too, might have been a few years old.
Looking again at the PROPel US 31 South Study, Existing Transportation Conditions (https://propelus31.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/US31SPEL_ExistCondRptFull_RP_FINAL.pdf), it notes that the INDOT Access Management Guide classifies the US 31 corridor through Hamilton, Tipton, Howard, and Miami counties as a Tier 1A Mobility Corridor. With the classification, a number a guidelines apply, and those can be viewed on Page 19 of the study. There is no mention when US 31 was designated a Tier 1A Mobility Corridor. But that classification, whenever it was conferred, certainly must be taken into account when putting together a county comprehensive plan.
According to the study, 256th Street is classified by INDOT as a "local road," while 276th Street and 236th Street (Bakers Corner), and 266th Street, are deemed "Major Collector" (Page 7). The reason for the classification grade of 256th Street is probably because it ends at Eagletown Road west of US 31. This indicates that, unless something significant changes, building an interchange or an overpass at 256th Street is unlikely to occur in the years to come. But, having said that, it's difficult to determine the growth of the northern exurbs of Indianapolis, whether it will be slow and steady or simply explode. Development already is rapidly spreading in northern Hamilton County. How far up it will go and how fast it will happen is a tremendous challenge to predict. However, the main development pattern is clear, and that is, it's primarily moving northward. There may come a time, perhaps in 15 or 20 years, or more, when another interchange on US 31 is needed between 236th and 276th Streets. But, for now, don't hold your breath.
Map showing new development in northwest Hamilton County
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53254580733_1fcb8cb4ee_k.jpg)
Google Maps
Satellite view of the town of Sheridan in northern Hamilton County, depicting a major residential housing project under development. Located about four miles west of Bakers Corner, Sheridan's population is beginning to tick up, from 2,665 in 2010 to 3,106 in 2020. When businesses begin to establish their footprint in the LEAP Innovation District in Boone County, both Sheridan and Bakers Corners, and other nearby towns, will likely see significant residential development.
Edit: Added map/minor wording edits
Another Battery Factory Planned for Kokomo
Yesterday, news broke that Stellantis and Samsung SDI plan to build (https://fox59.com/indiana-news/stellantis-samsung-sdi-to-invest-3-2b-for-2nd-kokomo-ev-battery-plant/) a second battery plant in Kokomo. Each facility, when fully built out, is expected to employ 1,400. While these plans do not directly apply to US 31 and its possible upgrades, they have an indirect impact as the population in Howard and Tipton counties is likely to increase if the factories come to fruition. And, of course, a larger population means more traffic, which then leads to road expansions and other mobility improvements.
US31/256th Street and the Wilson Farm Market
In regards to the Wilson Farm Market issue, I came across an interesting news piece (https://www.wishtv.com/news/local-news/arcadia-business-owner-questions-us-31-project/) from October 2020. In it, Hamilton County Commissioner Mark Heirbrandt is reported as noting the county's comprehensive plan shows an "access" at 256th Street. Bear in mind, this news report was from three years ago, so things may have changed since then. Also, it doesn't mention the date of the comprehensive plan, so that, too, might have been a few years old.
Looking again at the PROPel US 31 South Study, Existing Transportation Conditions (https://propelus31.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/US31SPEL_ExistCondRptFull_RP_FINAL.pdf), it notes that the INDOT Access Management Guide classifies the US 31 corridor through Hamilton, Tipton, Howard, and Miami counties as a Tier 1A Mobility Corridor. With the classification, a number a guidelines apply, and those can be viewed on Page 19 of the study. There is no mention when US 31 was designated a Tier 1A Mobility Corridor. But that classification, whenever it was conferred, certainly must be taken into account when putting together a county comprehensive plan.
According to the study, 256th Street is classified by INDOT as a "local road," while 276th Street and 236th Street (Bakers Corner), and 266th Street, are deemed "Major Collector" (Page 7). The reason for the classification grade of 256th Street is probably because it ends at Eagletown Road west of US 31. This indicates that, unless something significant changes, building an interchange or an overpass at 256th Street is unlikely to occur in the years to come. But, having said that, it's difficult to determine the growth of the northern exurbs of Indianapolis, whether it will be slow and steady or simply explode. Development already is rapidly spreading in northern Hamilton County. How far up it will go and how fast it will happen is a tremendous challenge to predict. However, the main development pattern is clear, and that is, it's primarily moving northward. There may come a time, perhaps in 15 or 20 years, or more, when another interchange on US 31 is needed between 236th and 276th Streets. But, for now, don't hold your breath.
Map showing new development in northwest Hamilton County
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53254580733_1fcb8cb4ee_k.jpg)
Google Maps
Satellite view of the town of Sheridan in northern Hamilton County, depicting a major residential housing project under development. Located about four miles west of Bakers Corner, Sheridan's population is beginning to tick up, from 2,665 in 2010 to 3,106 in 2020. When businesses begin to establish their footprint in the LEAP Innovation District in Boone County, both Sheridan and Bakers Corners, and other nearby towns, will likely see significant residential development.
Edit: Added map/minor wording edits
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: cjw2001 on October 14, 2023, 02:01:52 PM
Post by: cjw2001 on October 14, 2023, 02:01:52 PM
Note that Hamilton County is making a major investment to extend utilities to the area, so that may have some impact on growth.
https://readthereporter.com/hamilton-county-announces-transformational-infrastructure-project-for-bakers-corner-area/
https://www.wishtv.com/photo-gallery/hamilton-county-breaks-ground-on-regional-utility-district-in-bakers-corner-indiana/
https://youarecurrent.com/2023/10/15/hamilton-county-to-expand-water-and-sewer-to-bakers-corner/
https://readthereporter.com/hamilton-county-announces-transformational-infrastructure-project-for-bakers-corner-area/
https://www.wishtv.com/photo-gallery/hamilton-county-breaks-ground-on-regional-utility-district-in-bakers-corner-indiana/
https://youarecurrent.com/2023/10/15/hamilton-county-to-expand-water-and-sewer-to-bakers-corner/
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on October 16, 2023, 01:27:25 AM
Post by: ITB on October 16, 2023, 01:27:25 AM
Quote from: cjw2001 on October 14, 2023, 02:01:52 PM
Note that Hamilton County is making a major investment to extend utilities to the area, so that may have some impact on growth.
https://readthereporter.com/hamilton-county-announces-transformational-infrastructure-project-for-bakers-corner-area/
https://www.wishtv.com/photo-gallery/hamilton-county-breaks-ground-on-regional-utility-district-in-bakers-corner-indiana/
Nice find! Big news. This investment in sewer and water infrastructure will prime the areas around the US 31 corridor in northern Hamilton County for development, both residential and commercial. Land values along the corridor just went up. Farmers who haven't sold out yet will probably be taking a harder look at the offers that will soon be forthcoming. At the same time, they'll likely be a little anxious when they open their jacked up property tax bills. And that might be one more reason to sell. Change in underway.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on October 20, 2023, 12:00:26 AM
Post by: ITB on October 20, 2023, 12:00:26 AM
From the INDOT 18-Month Construction Letting List (https://entapps.indot.in.gov/lettings/dashboard/letting/report), as of October 15, 2023.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53269736147_64764a57cf_k.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53271097735_9f42786da5_k.jpg)
Two new bridges, one interchange modification, and "access control" work, all under the umbrella of one contract scheduled to be let in May of 2024.
Please note, for readability, I switched the pages around. The top image is of Page 132.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53269736147_64764a57cf_k.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53271097735_9f42786da5_k.jpg)
Two new bridges, one interchange modification, and "access control" work, all under the umbrella of one contract scheduled to be let in May of 2024.
Please note, for readability, I switched the pages around. The top image is of Page 132.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 20, 2023, 11:13:41 AM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 20, 2023, 11:13:41 AM
Are they planning to convert the section of US 31 between the new 276th St. interchange and the IN 28 interchange to freeway standards in the near future? Or the section between the IN 28 and IN 931 interchanges?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on October 21, 2023, 10:27:27 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on October 21, 2023, 10:27:27 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 20, 2023, 11:13:41 AM
Are they planning to convert the section of US 31 between the new 276th St. interchange and the IN 28 interchange to freeway standards in the near future? Or the section between the IN 28 and IN 931 interchanges?
in short yes
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-55 on October 22, 2023, 05:12:15 PM
Post by: I-55 on October 22, 2023, 05:12:15 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 21, 2023, 10:27:27 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on October 20, 2023, 11:13:41 AM
Are they planning to convert the section of US 31 between the new 276th St. interchange and the IN 28 interchange to freeway standards in the near future? Or the section between the IN 28 and IN 931 interchanges?
in short yes
Presumably the access control portion of the contract is most likely the removal of property access to US-31, and probably all access in Hamilton County with the overpasses that are to be built. Tipton County probably keeps intersections for longer but I'd expect some overpasses and/or interchange work after this round of construction
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on October 24, 2023, 10:06:54 AM
Post by: ITB on October 24, 2023, 10:06:54 AM
Yesterday afternoon in Miami County, there was a crash at a US 31 intersection (https://fox59.com/news/woman-dies-in-miami-county-2-vehicle-crash/) that resulted in a fatality. It happened at State Road 218 in Bunker Hill and involved an elderly driver was trying to cross the northbound lanes to go south on US 31. Looking at Google Streetview, it shows the intersection as being only partially controlled, featuring a stop sign and solid red lights for 218 and yellow warning lights on 31.
This sad incident confirms, once again, the need to upgrade US 31 to a limited access highway, the sooner the better.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on October 24, 2023, 10:12:39 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on October 24, 2023, 10:12:39 AM
Quote from: ITB on October 24, 2023, 10:06:54 AM
Yesterday afternoon in Miami County, there was a crash at a US 31 intersection (https://fox59.com/news/woman-dies-in-miami-county-2-vehicle-crash/) that resulted in a fatality. It happened at State Road 218 in Bunker Hill and involved an elderly driver was trying to cross the northbound lanes to go south on US 31. Looking at Google Streetview, it shows the intersection as being only partially controlled, featuring a stop sign and solid red lights for 218 and yellow warning lights on 31.
This sad incident confirms, once again, the need to upgrade US 31 to a limited access highway, the sooner the better.
that's terrible. i think INDOT really wants to get rid of most flashers in the state that aren't 4 way stops to avoid things like this happening. explains the amount of J-Turns they are doing.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 24, 2023, 02:41:30 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 24, 2023, 02:41:30 PM
Due to its proximity to Grissom Joint Air Reserve Base, I would recommend cul-du-sacing the southern US 31/IN 218 intersection. 218 would then be rerouted northward along a new roadway paralleling US 31 until shifting west to meet 31 at an interchange where the existing US 31/IN 218 northern junction is. Hoosier Blvd. could be grade-separated at US 31 and extended east to terminate at the new IN 218 alignment, which would allow access to the base.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on October 24, 2023, 03:31:34 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on October 24, 2023, 03:31:34 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 24, 2023, 02:41:30 PM
Due to its proximity to Grissom Joint Air Reserve Base, I would recommend cul-du-sacing the southern US 31/IN 218 intersection. 218 would then be rerouted northward along a new roadway paralleling US 31 until shifting west to meet 31 at an interchange where the existing US 31/IN 218 northern junction is. Hoosier Blvd. could be grade-separated at US 31 and extended east to terminate at the new IN 218 alignment, which would allow access to the base.
You've got Pipe Creek immediately east of that northern intersection.
A better idea might be to reroute both legs of 218 and have them meet just north of the Ace Hardware.Or reconfigure the Grissom interchange to connect to both legs of 218.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Moose on October 24, 2023, 04:28:16 PM
Post by: Moose on October 24, 2023, 04:28:16 PM
Quote from: I-55 on October 22, 2023, 05:12:15 PMQuote from: silverback1065 on October 21, 2023, 10:27:27 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on October 20, 2023, 11:13:41 AM
Are they planning to convert the section of US 31 between the new 276th St. interchange and the IN 28 interchange to freeway standards in the near future? Or the section between the IN 28 and IN 931 interchanges?
in short yes
Presumably the access control portion of the contract is most likely the removal of property access to US-31, and probably all access in Hamilton County with the overpasses that are to be built. Tipton County probably keeps intersections for longer but I'd expect some overpasses and/or interchange work after this round of construction
From what I see there are two access control projects that overlap.
One from US 31 and 106 to SR 26. This stretches from way down in Carmel to up in Kokomo (Coverall project for removal of the intersections and cul de sacing anything not getting a bridge/interchange)
Another from near Route 38 to near 236th? (This looks like a separate project for frontage/access roads for people not on a cross street in my opinion)
It looks like the Farm at 256th will get worked around. Too bad, they offered you an olive branch, and now INDOT will spite you for being a pain.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on October 26, 2023, 10:05:17 PM
Post by: monty on October 26, 2023, 10:05:17 PM
US 31 up to 236th Street will be a freeway by the close of 2025. Perhaps even sooner. The remainder of the "incomplete" corridor (sans Kokomo and north of US 30) are undergoing the PEL study, which should be complete next summer. That study should (hopefully) guide the final round of corridor improvements. Most involved will agree that there won't be any stoplights on the highway upon completion of the corridor. What we don't know is exactly to what degree work will be done to modify the highway intersections and other significant trafficked county crossing roads and the timeline of work. This corridor has been a high priority of the current governor and his predecessor administrations for about 19 years. The US 31 Coalition has existed since 2000.
https://www.in.gov/indot/about-indot/central-office/welcome-to-the-greenfield-district/us-31-limited-access-upgrade-from-sr-38-to-286th-street/
https://propelus31.com/
https://www.google.com/gasearch?q=us%2031%20coalition&tbm=&source=sh/x/gs/m2/5
https://www.in.gov/indot/about-indot/central-office/welcome-to-the-greenfield-district/us-31-limited-access-upgrade-from-sr-38-to-286th-street/
https://propelus31.com/
https://www.google.com/gasearch?q=us%2031%20coalition&tbm=&source=sh/x/gs/m2/5
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: TempoNick on October 27, 2023, 02:03:30 PM
Post by: TempoNick on October 27, 2023, 02:03:30 PM
How realistic is anything being done with US 30? From my standpoint, living here in Columbus (Ohio), I think it would be a great alternate route to Chicagoland. Us 30 is a pretty good road into Indiana, but a little bit less of a nice Road between the state line and Fort Wayne. West of Fort Wayne, the alignment isn't horrible, but it doesn't look like they put a lot of money into road repairs. The last time I traveled through there, which was within the last 5 years, it seemed like a very bumpy drive.
US 30 to me looks a lot like many spots along US 40, like it's been forgotten.
US 30 to me looks a lot like many spots along US 40, like it's been forgotten.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on October 27, 2023, 02:39:18 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on October 27, 2023, 02:39:18 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on October 27, 2023, 02:03:30 PM
How realistic is anything being done with US 30? From my standpoint, living here in Columbus (Ohio), I think it would be a great alternate route to Chicagoland. Us 30 is a pretty good road into Indiana, but a little bit less of a nice Road between the state line and Fort Wayne. West of Fort Wayne, the alignment isn't horrible, but it doesn't look like they put a lot of money into road repairs. The last time I traveled through there, which was within the last 5 years, it seemed like a very bumpy drive.
US 30 to me looks a lot like many spots along US 40, like it's been forgotten.
in my opinion they will do nothing major to 30. probably just a ton of j-turns.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: JREwing78 on October 27, 2023, 09:23:22 PM
Post by: JREwing78 on October 27, 2023, 09:23:22 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on October 27, 2023, 02:03:30 PM
How realistic is anything being done with US 30?
There's studies happening for US 30: https://propelus30.com/
It's certainly a long-term goal for InDOT. US 31 just happens to be farther along in its process
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-55 on October 28, 2023, 01:29:13 AM
Post by: I-55 on October 28, 2023, 01:29:13 AM
Quote from: JREwing78 on October 27, 2023, 09:23:22 PMQuote from: TempoNick on October 27, 2023, 02:03:30 PM
How realistic is anything being done with US 30?
There's studies happening for US 30: https://propelus30.com/
It's certainly a long-term goal for InDOT. US 31 just happens to be farther along in its process
US 31 rightfully is getting all of the attention, as it is significantly more traveled and if they wait longer there will be too much development around the corridor. US 30 is seeing minor spot improvements at egregious conflict zones but not to the same degree as US-31. INDOT seems to have made it clear that their primary investments after I-69 and US 31 will be I-465 and I-65, with a little bit of I-70. US 30 is far down the priority list, not to mention there haven't been many major projects in the northeast Indiana region in the last decade or so.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: TempoNick on October 28, 2023, 09:57:55 AM
Post by: TempoNick on October 28, 2023, 09:57:55 AM
Quote from: I-55 on October 28, 2023, 01:29:13 AMQuote from: JREwing78 on October 27, 2023, 09:23:22 PMQuote from: TempoNick on October 27, 2023, 02:03:30 PM
How realistic is anything being done with US 30?
There's studies happening for US 30: https://propelus30.com/
It's certainly a long-term goal for InDOT. US 31 just happens to be farther along in its process
US 31 rightfully is getting all of the attention, as it is significantly more traveled and if they wait longer there will be too much development around the corridor. US 30 is seeing minor spot improvements at egregious conflict zones but not to the same degree as US-31. INDOT seems to have made it clear that their primary investments after I-69 and US 31 will be I-465 and I-65, with a little bit of I-70. US 30 is far down the priority list, not to mention there haven't been many major projects in the northeast Indiana region in the last decade or so.
Speaking of I-70, that's definitely a candidate for three-laneing between the Ohio state line and Indianapolis. I'd personally like to see them upgrade US 30. Between Columbus and Fort Wayne there are a couple of gaps on US 23 and US 33 I would like to see filled. It just makes sense to carrying along with US 30, at least until it meets US 31. It might also make sense for Fort Wayne to have a good feed into I-75 via US 33, but I think US 30 should be adequate.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on October 28, 2023, 11:05:14 AM
Post by: ITB on October 28, 2023, 11:05:14 AM
Here's a link to INDOT's Major Project Delivery's 2022 Industry Day Presentation (https://www.in.gov/indot/files/INDOT-Industry-Day-Presentation-8-24-2022.pdf). This presentation, uploaded in PDF, gives a concise overview of the big projects currently underway and what's on the horizon. Of interest, in addition to Revive I-70 (https://revivei70.com/), the project to upgrade and add travel lanes to I-70 in Wayne County, was a project to add travels lanes to I-70 between SR 267 and SR 39 in Hendricks County. That project, according to the presentation, was given a contract bid number, R-43714. However, searching INDOT's 18 month letting list as well as Google provides no further information about the project. It seems it's been put on the back burner.
I have been unable to find the 2023 Industry Day Presentation, so for now, the 2022 overview will have to suffice.
As for possible US 30 upgrades, the results of the ProPEL 30 study (https://propelus30.com/) will shed some light on what direction INDOT plans to take for the corridor.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2023, 11:42:34 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2023, 11:42:34 AM
If I were to prioritize projects:
1 - Six laning the rest of I-65 between IN 47 and IN 2
2 - Six laning the rest of I-70 between IN 9 and US 35
3 - Upgrading US 30 to remove stoplights
1 - Six laning the rest of I-65 between IN 47 and IN 2
2 - Six laning the rest of I-70 between IN 9 and US 35
3 - Upgrading US 30 to remove stoplights
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on October 28, 2023, 09:17:24 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on October 28, 2023, 09:17:24 PM
:-D apparently INDOT is unaware that they gave up 267 last year!
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: 74/171FAN on October 28, 2023, 09:22:04 PM
Post by: 74/171FAN on October 28, 2023, 09:22:04 PM
I believe that I already posted this sign on I-70 WB in the Erroneous Road Signs Thread. (https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10218771878248557&set=a.10218771940010101)
(https://scontent.fagc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/347846682_638956190966865_4709352613842093917_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=9OC-N4VRKScAX8oQZ9k&_nc_ht=scontent.fagc1-1.fna&oh=00_AfCwkqZUcWHpcAGHVuRk6daTCbqh6mOKha96Faj75W8ATg&oe=65437FDD)
(https://scontent.fagc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/347846682_638956190966865_4709352613842093917_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=9OC-N4VRKScAX8oQZ9k&_nc_ht=scontent.fagc1-1.fna&oh=00_AfCwkqZUcWHpcAGHVuRk6daTCbqh6mOKha96Faj75W8ATg&oe=65437FDD)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: TempoNick on October 28, 2023, 09:44:44 PM
Post by: TempoNick on October 28, 2023, 09:44:44 PM
I like those blue signs in Indiana. I wish Ohio would go to that color. I don't know why, I just like the look. I typically don't like blue signs though but it has a good look there.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Revive 755 on October 28, 2023, 09:54:24 PM
Post by: Revive 755 on October 28, 2023, 09:54:24 PM
Quote from: ITB on October 28, 2023, 11:05:14 AM
Here's a link to INDOT's Major Project Delivery's 2022 Industry Day Presentation (https://www.in.gov/indot/files/INDOT-Industry-Day-Presentation-8-24-2022.pdf). This presentation, uploaded in PDF, gives a concise overview of the big projects currently underway and what's on the horizon.
So according to Page 27 of 56, INDOT is already needing to modify US 31 between I-465 and 116th Street? Didn't think it had been that long since INDOT upgraded that stretch.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Moose on October 29, 2023, 09:56:48 AM
Post by: Moose on October 29, 2023, 09:56:48 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2023, 11:42:34 AM
If I were to prioritize projects:
1 - Six laning the rest of I-65 between IN 47 and IN 2
2 - Six laning the rest of I-70 between IN 9 and US 35
3 - Upgrading US 30 to remove stoplights
In a perfect world US-30 would become part of an extended I-76 from its end in Ohio.
But one reason you haven't and won't see a lot of East West Northern Indiana road projects, is there is still a binding no compete clause in the Indiana Toll Road sale. Indiana can't go and upgrade a competing road. I can't remember though if that would include US-30 or not.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on October 29, 2023, 10:12:20 AM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on October 29, 2023, 10:12:20 AM
Quote from: Moose on October 29, 2023, 09:56:48 AMQuote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2023, 11:42:34 AM
If I were to prioritize projects:
1 - Six laning the rest of I-65 between IN 47 and IN 2
2 - Six laning the rest of I-70 between IN 9 and US 35
3 - Upgrading US 30 to remove stoplights
In a perfect world US-30 would become part of an extended I-76 from its end in Ohio.
But one reason you haven't and won't see a lot of East West Northern Indiana road projects, is there is still a binding no compete clause in the Indiana Toll Road sale. Indiana can't go and upgrade a competing road. I can't remember though if that would include US-30 or not.
No E-W road within a certain distance of the Toll Road can be converted to limited access. I don't know the exact distance, but I know that 30 gets progressively farther away from the ITR as it moves east, so there's some point where that restriction goes away. I think at least the section from Plymouth to Fort Wayne is fair game.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Moose on October 29, 2023, 11:36:23 AM
Post by: Moose on October 29, 2023, 11:36:23 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 29, 2023, 10:12:20 AMQuote from: Moose on October 29, 2023, 09:56:48 AMQuote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2023, 11:42:34 AM
If I were to prioritize projects:
1 - Six laning the rest of I-65 between IN 47 and IN 2
2 - Six laning the rest of I-70 between IN 9 and US 35
3 - Upgrading US 30 to remove stoplights
In a perfect world US-30 would become part of an extended I-76 from its end in Ohio.
But one reason you haven't and won't see a lot of East West Northern Indiana road projects, is there is still a binding no compete clause in the Indiana Toll Road sale. Indiana can't go and upgrade a competing road. I can't remember though if that would include US-30 or not.
No E-W road within a certain distance of the Toll Road can be converted to limited access. I don't know the exact distance, but I know that 30 gets progressively farther away from the ITR as it moves east, so there's some point where that restriction goes away. I think at least the section from Plymouth to Fort Wayne is fair game.
Well in a future potential possible fictional world, such an I-76 road would stay just south of that barrier and connect to the south end of Illinois 394. Or connect end on to the potential Illiana Freeway that was proposed.
I can only imagine that even being out of range of the tollway, such an I-76 would absolutely crater toll road car counts
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: TempoNick on October 29, 2023, 12:55:19 PM
Post by: TempoNick on October 29, 2023, 12:55:19 PM
Quote from: Moose on October 29, 2023, 09:56:48 AMQuote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2023, 11:42:34 AM
If I were to prioritize projects:
1 - Six laning the rest of I-65 between IN 47 and IN 2
2 - Six laning the rest of I-70 between IN 9 and US 35
3 - Upgrading US 30 to remove stoplights
In a perfect world US-30 would become part of an extended I-76 from its end in Ohio.
But one reason you haven't and won't see a lot of East West Northern Indiana road projects, is there is still a binding no compete clause in the Indiana Toll Road sale. Indiana can't go and upgrade a competing road. I can't remember though if that would include US-30 or not.
Interstate 76 would be one goofy alignment though. You're starting at just south of Pittsburgh, going north maybe 60 miles is the crow flies to get to Akron, then 33 miles south to get to Mansfield, then going in a northerly direction again as you drive toward Fort Wayne and Chicago. Not very practical.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Moose on October 29, 2023, 02:42:43 PM
Post by: Moose on October 29, 2023, 02:42:43 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on October 29, 2023, 12:55:19 PMQuote from: Moose on October 29, 2023, 09:56:48 AMQuote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 28, 2023, 11:42:34 AM
If I were to prioritize projects:
1 - Six laning the rest of I-65 between IN 47 and IN 2
2 - Six laning the rest of I-70 between IN 9 and US 35
3 - Upgrading US 30 to remove stoplights
In a perfect world US-30 would become part of an extended I-76 from its end in Ohio.
But one reason you haven't and won't see a lot of East West Northern Indiana road projects, is there is still a binding no compete clause in the Indiana Toll Road sale. Indiana can't go and upgrade a competing road. I can't remember though if that would include US-30 or not.
Interstate 76 would be one goofy alignment though. You're starting at just south of Pittsburgh, going north maybe 60 miles is the crow flies to get to Akron, then 33 miles south to get to Mansfield, then going in a northerly direction again as you drive toward Fort Wayne and Chicago. Not very practical.
About follows some of the railroad alignments that flow east to west. The old EL and PRR comes to mind. B&O not far away.
its also no more weird really then the hard hook the Indiana Toll Road takes to run on the Michigan Border..
Probably need to find the old Toll Road thread and place the US 30 discussion there.
As to the IN-31 corridor. I can't imagine the end goal for now being anything less than interstate standards Indy to Kokomo.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: zzcarp on October 30, 2023, 02:56:56 PM
Post by: zzcarp on October 30, 2023, 02:56:56 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on October 29, 2023, 12:55:19 PMInterstate 76 would be one goofy alignment though. You're starting at just south of Pittsburgh, going north maybe 60 miles is the crow flies to get to Akron, then 33 miles south to get to Mansfield, then going in a northerly direction again as you drive toward Fort Wayne and Chicago. Not very practical.
With the NE-SW trajectory of both the Turnpike and I-71, there's only about 20 miles of true N-S "backtracking", and only 16-ish on I-71 itself. It's not that far out of the way or impractical for a trip of hundreds of miles.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on October 30, 2023, 05:36:06 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on October 30, 2023, 05:36:06 PM
us 30 would make more sense as I-80. but that will Never happen.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on October 30, 2023, 05:38:05 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on October 30, 2023, 05:38:05 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on October 28, 2023, 09:54:24 PMQuote from: ITB on October 28, 2023, 11:05:14 AM
Here's a link to INDOT's Major Project Delivery's 2022 Industry Day Presentation (https://www.in.gov/indot/files/INDOT-Industry-Day-Presentation-8-24-2022.pdf). This presentation, uploaded in PDF, gives a concise overview of the big projects currently underway and what's on the horizon.
So according to Page 27 of 56, INDOT is already needing to modify US 31 between I-465 and 116th Street? Didn't think it had been that long since INDOT upgraded that stretch.
my guess is the flyover ramps are already in need of widening due to increased traffic and in order to accommodate the widening you need to extend the widening north a bit, but that's the only thing I can think of as to why that would need work. I used to live up there and the ramps to us 31 north really could use more lanes.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on October 30, 2023, 08:47:19 PM
Post by: monty on October 30, 2023, 08:47:19 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 30, 2023, 05:38:05 PMQuote from: Revive 755 on October 28, 2023, 09:54:24 PMQuote from: ITB on October 28, 2023, 11:05:14 AM
Here's a link to INDOT's Major Project Delivery's 2022 Industry Day Presentation (https://www.in.gov/indot/files/INDOT-Industry-Day-Presentation-8-24-2022.pdf). This presentation, uploaded in PDF, gives a concise overview of the big projects currently underway and what's on the horizon.
So according to Page 27 of 56, INDOT is already needing to modify US 31 between I-465 and 116th Street? Didn't think it had been that long since INDOT upgraded that stretch.
my guess is the flyover ramps are already in need of widening due to increased traffic and in order to accommodate the widening you need to extend the widening north a bit, but that's the only thing I can think of as to why that would need work. I used to live up there and the ramps to us 31 north really could use more lanes.
That area gets very congested - exiting to and entry from I 465. INDOT made a lane adjustment this summer restricting northbound Meridian to one entry lane to allow two lanes of entry from I 465. It seemed to help some. I 465 east to US 31 north backs up a lot during busy times - even slowing clear back onto eastbound travel lanes on I 465.
Southbound Traffic from US 31 exiting to I 465 backs up often clear back to 116th. The pinch point is the reduction of exit lanes just past the eastbound ramp.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: TempoNick on October 31, 2023, 01:42:30 AM
Post by: TempoNick on October 31, 2023, 01:42:30 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 30, 2023, 05:36:06 PM
us 30 would make more sense as I-80. but that will Never happen.
Now you're talking. Swap 80 and 76 west of Youngstown and just keep going west using US 30. 76 would terminate at I-90.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Life in Paradise on October 31, 2023, 12:24:06 PM
Post by: Life in Paradise on October 31, 2023, 12:24:06 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on October 31, 2023, 01:42:30 AMAnd almost immediately you get rid of a lot of concurrencies.Quote from: silverback1065 on October 30, 2023, 05:36:06 PM
us 30 would make more sense as I-80. but that will Never happen.
Now you're talking. Swap 80 and 76 west of Youngstown and just keep going west using US 30. 76 would terminate at I-90.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-55 on October 31, 2023, 04:14:13 PM
Post by: I-55 on October 31, 2023, 04:14:13 PM
Quote from: Life in Paradise on October 31, 2023, 12:24:06 PMQuote from: TempoNick on October 31, 2023, 01:42:30 AMAnd almost immediately you get rid of a lot of concurrencies.Quote from: silverback1065 on October 30, 2023, 05:36:06 PM
us 30 would make more sense as I-80. but that will Never happen.
Now you're talking. Swap 80 and 76 west of Youngstown and just keep going west using US 30. 76 would terminate at I-90.
- Alternative to the Borman
- US 30 gets significant safety upgrades
- Fort Wayne gets an east-west 2di AND an x0 at that
- Ohio might consider a direct interchange with I-75... (gonna stop here before getting too fictional)
I see this as an absolute win for the 260 gang.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: TempoNick on October 31, 2023, 05:45:35 PM
Post by: TempoNick on October 31, 2023, 05:45:35 PM
Quote from: I-55 on October 31, 2023, 04:14:13 PM
- Fort Wayne gets an east-west 2di AND an x0
Spread the love around. Akron and Mansfield would also get an x0.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: JREwing78 on October 31, 2023, 10:21:18 PM
Post by: JREwing78 on October 31, 2023, 10:21:18 PM
Quote from: Moose on October 29, 2023, 02:42:43 PM
As to the US-31 corridor. I can't imagine the end goal for now being anything less than interstate standards Indy to Kokomo.
That is, indeed, the ultimate plan. Eventually, also for north of Kokomo to US-24, as the traffic counts justify freeway to that point. It's also much like the section south of Kokomo, with 4-lane built out on narrow ROW and too many access points, so it's going to be similarly expensive to upgrade.
The section between US-30 and US-24 will be the last section to go full-freeway, but it's also the lightest in traffic. It's primary problem are the handful of stoplights, which will only grow more dangerous as the sections south of US-24 replace stoplights with interchanges and people grow less accustomed to seeing them on US-31. It has plenty of ROW and access control is much better, so it's a much less daunting task to convert to freeway when needed.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Revive 755 on October 31, 2023, 10:46:40 PM
Post by: Revive 755 on October 31, 2023, 10:46:40 PM
Quote from: I-55 on October 31, 2023, 04:14:13 PM
- Alternative to the Borman
So far all the US 30 upgrades seem to stop at Valparaiso - not far enough west for a Borman alternative. Now if the upgrades would make it to I-65 and be tied in with a revival/extension of the Illiana . . .
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: cjw2001 on November 06, 2023, 02:40:52 PM
Post by: cjw2001 on November 06, 2023, 02:40:52 PM
INDOT put out a new press release today: U.S. 31 Limited Access Upgrade from State Road 38 to 286th Street Project Update (https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/3780176)
(https://www.in.gov/indot/images/US-31-Corridor-Design-Final.jpg)
See the project website for detailed intersection diagrams: https://www.in.gov/indot/about-indot/central-office/welcome-to-the-greenfield-district/us-31-limited-access-upgrade-from-sr-38-to-286th-street/?utm_campaign=&utm_content=&utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery&utm_term=
Looks like the project also includes median cable barrier from 106th Street up to SR 26.
(https://www.in.gov/indot/images/US-31-Corridor-Design-Final.jpg)
See the project website for detailed intersection diagrams: https://www.in.gov/indot/about-indot/central-office/welcome-to-the-greenfield-district/us-31-limited-access-upgrade-from-sr-38-to-286th-street/?utm_campaign=&utm_content=&utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery&utm_term=
Looks like the project also includes median cable barrier from 106th Street up to SR 26.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on November 06, 2023, 04:48:21 PM
Post by: ITB on November 06, 2023, 04:48:21 PM
Grabbed some screenshots from Google Maps/Streetview. They're from June/July, so a bit old, but may be interest to some.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53307913078_7db63ca32e_k.jpg)
Google Maps/Streetview
236th Street overpass and interchange at Bakers Corner; looking southwest.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53307668326_c949ad3534_k.jpg)
Google Maps/Streetview
View from the overpass; looking slightly northwest.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53308992121_1e68d56a58_k.jpg)
Google Maps/Streetview
Pounding piles for the overpass and interchange at 276th Street; looking slightly southwest.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53307912518_f412a8f91a_k.jpg)
Google Maps/Streetview
Earth and paving work at the 276th Street work zone; looking southeast.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on November 06, 2023, 05:55:43 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on November 06, 2023, 05:55:43 PM
I just happened to be looking at that Streetview last night along 236th Street. I was very intrigued to see them putting up mileage signs along 236th Street on both sides of the US 31 interchange. I don't think I've ever heard of INDOT doing that for non state highways as 236th is still very much a Hamilton County road.
To the west of the interchange there's a distance sign for Sheridan (5 miles) and Crawfordsville (45 miles.) Sheridan makes obvious sense but it was interesting to see Crawfordsville mentioned here. It does make sense since 236th Street turns into SR 47 in Sheridan.
And to the east there's a distance sign for Cicero (6 miles) and Anderson (25 miles.) I'm curious to know what they consider the most optimal route to Anderson from here.
To the west of the interchange there's a distance sign for Sheridan (5 miles) and Crawfordsville (45 miles.) Sheridan makes obvious sense but it was interesting to see Crawfordsville mentioned here. It does make sense since 236th Street turns into SR 47 in Sheridan.
And to the east there's a distance sign for Cicero (6 miles) and Anderson (25 miles.) I'm curious to know what they consider the most optimal route to Anderson from here.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 06, 2023, 06:27:25 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 06, 2023, 06:27:25 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on November 06, 2023, 05:55:43 PM
I just happened to be looking at that Streetview last night along 236th Street. I was very intrigued to see them putting up mileage signs along 236th Street on both sides of the US 31 interchange. I don't think I've ever heard of INDOT doing that for non state highways as 236th is still very much a Hamilton County road.
To the west of the interchange there's a distance sign for Sheridan (5 miles) and Crawfordsville (45 miles.) Sheridan makes obvious sense but it was interesting to see Crawfordsville mentioned here. It does make sense since 236th Street turns into SR 47 in Sheridan.
And to the east there's a distance sign for Cicero (6 miles) and Anderson (25 miles.) I'm curious to know what they consider the most optimal route to Anderson from here.
I've never had the need to go to Anderson directly from that spot, but if I did, it would be via 236th (and the other names the road takes along the way). Given the growth in northern Hamilton County, you could argue that 47 should be extended to Anderson.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Life in Paradise on November 07, 2023, 01:04:10 PM
Post by: Life in Paradise on November 07, 2023, 01:04:10 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 06, 2023, 06:27:25 PMApparently IN 47 used to go through Baker's Corner and US31, but was decommissioned and terminated at Sheridan and IN 38. Can't have those state roads going through populated areas, that's for Interstates mostly.Quote from: tdindy88 on November 06, 2023, 05:55:43 PM
I just happened to be looking at that Streetview last night along 236th Street. I was very intrigued to see them putting up mileage signs along 236th Street on both sides of the US 31 interchange. I don't think I've ever heard of INDOT doing that for non state highways as 236th is still very much a Hamilton County road.
To the west of the interchange there's a distance sign for Sheridan (5 miles) and Crawfordsville (45 miles.) Sheridan makes obvious sense but it was interesting to see Crawfordsville mentioned here. It does make sense since 236th Street turns into SR 47 in Sheridan.
And to the east there's a distance sign for Cicero (6 miles) and Anderson (25 miles.) I'm curious to know what they consider the most optimal route to Anderson from here.
I've never had the need to go to Anderson directly from that spot, but if I did, it would be via 236th (and the other names the road takes along the way). Given the growth in northern Hamilton County, you could argue that 47 should be extended to Anderson.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on November 07, 2023, 07:35:12 PM
Post by: monty on November 07, 2023, 07:35:12 PM
Quote from: cjw2001 on November 06, 2023, 02:40:52 PM
INDOT put out a new press release today: U.S. 31 Limited Access Upgrade from State Road 38 to 286th Street Project Update (https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/3780176)
(https://www.in.gov/indot/images/US-31-Corridor-Design-Final.jpg)
See the project website for detailed intersection diagrams: https://www.in.gov/indot/about-indot/central-office/welcome-to-the-greenfield-district/us-31-limited-access-upgrade-from-sr-38-to-286th-street/?utm_campaign=&utm_content=&utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery&utm_term=
Looks like the project also includes median cable barrier from 106th Street up to SR 26.
Interesting to see the RIRO at 286th St. That process was an indot preference for Tipton County as well, including Division Road. Local opposition lead to the Propel study now ongoing. The US 31 Coalition will oppose the RIRO applications in favor of true interstate standards. It's going to be interesting to see the Propel results and to what degree indot will endorse the recommendations. The median cable barrier up to SR 26 was also in the prior strategy and likely will eliminate numerous median crossings.
This newest Hamilton County segment surely will qualify for a 65 mph speed limit. Do RIRO intersections qualify for the 65 limit or must they stay at 60, as is the current case? Comparing the recent Hoosier Heartland corridor RIRO's make me think that 60 will be the max.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on November 07, 2023, 08:01:33 PM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on November 07, 2023, 08:01:33 PM
Quote from: monty on November 07, 2023, 07:35:12 PMQuote from: cjw2001 on November 06, 2023, 02:40:52 PM
INDOT put out a new press release today: U.S. 31 Limited Access Upgrade from State Road 38 to 286th Street Project Update (https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/3780176)
(https://www.in.gov/indot/images/US-31-Corridor-Design-Final.jpg)
See the project website for detailed intersection diagrams: https://www.in.gov/indot/about-indot/central-office/welcome-to-the-greenfield-district/us-31-limited-access-upgrade-from-sr-38-to-286th-street/?utm_campaign=&utm_content=&utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery&utm_term=
Looks like the project also includes median cable barrier from 106th Street up to SR 26.
Interesting to see the RIRO at 286th St. That process was an indot preference for Tipton County as well, including Division Road. Local opposition lead to the Propel study now ongoing. The US 31 Coalition will oppose the RIRO applications in favor of true interstate standards. It's going to be interesting to see the Propel results and to what degree indot will endorse the recommendations. The median cable barrier up to SR 26 was also in the prior strategy and likely will eliminate numerous median crossings.
This newest Hamilton County segment surely will qualify for a 65 mph speed limit. Do RIRO intersections qualify for the 65 limit or must they stay at 60, as is the current case? Comparing the recent Hoosier Heartland corridor RIRO's make me think that 60 will be the max.
I have a feeling that INDOT will stick to 60 mph through the rest of Hamilton County until the segment through Tipton County gets upgraded to freeway standards.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-55 on November 08, 2023, 12:33:40 AM
Post by: I-55 on November 08, 2023, 12:33:40 AM
Quote from: monty on November 07, 2023, 07:35:12 PM
Interesting to see the RIRO at 286th St. That process was an indot preference for Tipton County as well, including Division Road. Local opposition lead to the Propel study now ongoing. The US 31 Coalition will oppose the RIRO applications in favor of true interstate standards. It's going to be interesting to see the Propel results and to what degree indot will endorse the recommendations. The median cable barrier up to SR 26 was also in the prior strategy and likely will eliminate numerous median crossings.
This newest Hamilton County segment surely will qualify for a 65 mph speed limit. Do RIRO intersections qualify for the 65 limit or must they stay at 60, as is the current case? Comparing the recent Hoosier Heartland corridor RIRO's make me think that 60 will be the max.
US-24 east of Fort Wayne has a RIRO at Bruick Rd and a 65 mph limit. Not saying it's INDOT's preferred choice, but they've done it before.
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on November 07, 2023, 08:01:33 PM
I have a feeling that INDOT will stick to 60 mph through the rest of Hamilton County until the segment through Tipton County gets upgraded to freeway standards.
US-24 likely was 65 to match the portion in Ohio, INDOT will probably wait until there's enough freeway to keep a consistent speed on 31.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on November 08, 2023, 05:15:28 AM
Post by: tdindy88 on November 08, 2023, 05:15:28 AM
In any case, the RIRO at 286th is probably a temporary measure anyway. Once the PROPEL study comes back with the "recommendation" that US 31 should be made into a freeway through Tipton County with an interchange at Division Road they will start working on converting the rest to be like a freeway. I would guess that 286th would become a cul-de-sac with nearby 296th being an overpass. After all of that is completed then a uniform 65 MPH can be applied. Or even a 70 MPH if the General Assembly wills it so. :)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: TempoNick on November 08, 2023, 11:46:17 AM
Post by: TempoNick on November 08, 2023, 11:46:17 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 19, 2019, 06:29:14 PM
Well, dvferance, I don't think the corridor needs an Interstate designation, even though the 67 designation would fit the grid. I do think the US 31 corridor between Indianapolis and South Bend should be completely freeway, just keep it US 31. After the Interstate binges North Carolina and Texas have gone on, I don't think other states should follow their lead. Besides, if the Indianapolis-to-South Bend corridor were to get an Interstate designation, such a designation should continue into Michigan (perhaps to Grand Rapids). I don't think that would be illogical.
I'm a big fan of Interstate quality roads and Interstate designations. They are very helpful for travelers. A US shield means nothing. It could be anything from a crappy two-lane road like US 52 in the southern tip of West Virginia, to an interstate style highway. At the very least, they should come up with different colored US shields so that you know what kind of highway you are on. (Blue for true freeway and maybe red for divided four lane rural with at grade intersections.)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 08, 2023, 12:16:15 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 08, 2023, 12:16:15 PM
I stand by my 2019 comment. The US 31 corridor does not need an Interstate designation, even if it is upgraded to freeway standards along its entire length between Indianapolis and South Bend. If I'm not mistaken, the portion of US 31 between IN 38 and IN 931 (southern segment) was also to be upgraded to freeway standards but was pushed back due to the original plans severely restricting access along the existing corridor. That portion will likely be upgraded in the future, but extensive mitigation of impacts would be needed before doing so.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 08, 2023, 12:35:03 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 08, 2023, 12:35:03 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 08, 2023, 12:16:15 PM
I stand by my 2019 comment. The US 31 corridor does not need an Interstate designation, even if it is upgraded to freeway standards along its entire length between Indianapolis and South Bend. If I'm not mistaken, the portion of US 31 between IN 38 and IN 931 (southern segment) was also to be upgraded to freeway standards but was pushed back due to the original plans severely restricting access along the existing corridor. That portion will likely be upgraded in the future, but extensive mitigation of impacts would be needed before doing so.
I don't think the segment between US 30 and US 24 is getting upgraded anytime soon, but if we did end up at the point where you had a full freeway from Indianapolis to Benton Harbor, then it absolutely should receive an interstate designation.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on November 08, 2023, 08:25:20 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on November 08, 2023, 08:25:20 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on November 08, 2023, 05:15:28 AMIf the General Assembly wills it so, the entire corridor between Indianapolis and South Bend could go up to 65 mph or 70 mph as is. The cap of 60 mph due to access control is purely artificial.
In any case, the RIRO at 286th is probably a temporary measure anyway. Once the PROPEL study comes back with the "recommendation" that US 31 should be made into a freeway through Tipton County with an interchange at Division Road they will start working on converting the rest to be like a freeway. I would guess that 286th would become a cul-de-sac with nearby 296th being an overpass. After all of that is completed then a uniform 65 MPH can be applied. Or even a 70 MPH if the General Assembly wills it so. :)
We suffer the same fate here in Virginia.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Moose on November 08, 2023, 08:39:31 PM
Post by: Moose on November 08, 2023, 08:39:31 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on November 08, 2023, 11:46:17 AM
I'm a big fan of Interstate quality roads and Interstate designations. They are very helpful for travelers. A US shield means nothing. It could be anything from a crappy two-lane road like US 52 in the southern tip of West Virginia, to an interstate style highway. At the very least, they should come up with different colored US shields so that you know what kind of highway you are on. (Blue for true freeway and maybe red for divided four lane rural with at grade intersections.)
US-31 as a designation could honestly be endangered in sections north of Louisville.
Its happened before, when US-25 disappeared north of Cinci.
Also 31W disappeared in Indiana too.
I know at times US-31 south of Indianapolis has been deemed rather superfluous. Particularly the section Columbus South.. but the section from Columbus north isn't much better. Except for goofballs like me.. I don't know anyone that really uses US-31 in Southern Indiana as a through route.
I swear I remember proposals to just eliminate the US-31 designation on the existing route south of Indy to Louisville.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: jnewkirk77 on November 08, 2023, 08:59:56 PM
Post by: jnewkirk77 on November 08, 2023, 08:59:56 PM
Quote from: Moose on November 08, 2023, 08:39:31 PMQuote from: TempoNick on November 08, 2023, 11:46:17 AM
I'm a big fan of Interstate quality roads and Interstate designations. They are very helpful for travelers. A US shield means nothing. It could be anything from a crappy two-lane road like US 52 in the southern tip of West Virginia, to an interstate style highway. At the very least, they should come up with different colored US shields so that you know what kind of highway you are on. (Blue for true freeway and maybe red for divided four lane rural with at grade intersections.)
US-31 as a designation could honestly be endangered in sections north of Louisville.
Its happened before, when US-25 disappeared north of Cinci.
Also 31W disappeared in Indiana too.
I know at times US-31 south of Indianapolis has been deemed rather superfluous. Particularly the section Columbus South.. but the section from Columbus north isn't much better. Except for goofballs like me.. I don't know anyone that really uses US-31 in Southern Indiana as a through route.
I swear I remember proposals to just eliminate the US-31 designation on the existing route south of Indy to Louisville.
AASHTO wouldn't go along with deleting 31. Maybe moving it to I-65, but not deleting it.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 08, 2023, 09:02:18 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 08, 2023, 09:02:18 PM
I don't see US 31 being truncated on either end. It will probably always connect Spanish Fort, AL with Mackinaw City, MI for the rest of eternity. I wouldn't mind the 31E/31W combo being eliminated, with one route getting the mainline 31 designation, and the other getting a new designation, such as US 37.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on November 09, 2023, 08:20:53 AM
Post by: silverback1065 on November 09, 2023, 08:20:53 AM
31 is going no where.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Moose on November 09, 2023, 03:02:23 PM
Post by: Moose on November 09, 2023, 03:02:23 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 09, 2023, 08:20:53 AM
31 is going no where.
Never say never, Look how much of 31 is ether made useless by I-65 or I-196..
As I said, happened to US 25.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-55 on November 09, 2023, 05:06:47 PM
Post by: I-55 on November 09, 2023, 05:06:47 PM
Quote from: jnewkirk77 on November 08, 2023, 08:59:56 PMQuote from: Moose on November 08, 2023, 08:39:31 PMQuote from: TempoNick on November 08, 2023, 11:46:17 AM
I'm a big fan of Interstate quality roads and Interstate designations. They are very helpful for travelers. A US shield means nothing. It could be anything from a crappy two-lane road like US 52 in the southern tip of West Virginia, to an interstate style highway. At the very least, they should come up with different colored US shields so that you know what kind of highway you are on. (Blue for true freeway and maybe red for divided four lane rural with at grade intersections.)
US-31 as a designation could honestly be endangered in sections north of Louisville.
Its happened before, when US-25 disappeared north of Cinci.
Also 31W disappeared in Indiana too.
I know at times US-31 south of Indianapolis has been deemed rather superfluous. Particularly the section Columbus South.. but the section from Columbus north isn't much better. Except for goofballs like me.. I don't know anyone that really uses US-31 in Southern Indiana as a through route.
I swear I remember proposals to just eliminate the US-31 designation on the existing route south of Indy to Louisville.
AASHTO wouldn't go along with deleting 31. Maybe moving it to I-65, but not deleting it.
I remember a proposal from maybe 5 or so years ago to move 31 to I-65 between Indy and Louisville. I was unable to find a dedicated thread here (though I know it was discussed, may be buried in the Indiana Notes thread?)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on November 09, 2023, 05:27:44 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on November 09, 2023, 05:27:44 PM
That means giving a lot of INDOT-maintained road back to local counties and cities. While INDOT does love giving away highways, that may be too much. In any case, US 31 serves as a good alternative route in the event of problems along I-65, a good emergency bypass if needed. It is probably better that the state maintains it and not some local agency. Most interstates in Indiana have a local alternative nearby, I-64 has SR 68, I-69 has SR 57 in the south, I-70 has US 40, I-74 has US 136 and SR 46 in the southeast, I-80/90 have US 20 and SR 2. The only sections that have eliminated or moved onto the interstate itself is if it follows the older route exactly, such as US 421 on I-74 or US 52 on I-65.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 09, 2023, 06:02:45 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on November 09, 2023, 06:02:45 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on November 09, 2023, 05:27:44 PM
That means giving a lot of INDOT-maintained road back to local counties and cities. While INDOT does love giving away highways, that may be too much. In any case, US 31 serves as a good alternative route in the event of problems along I-65, a good emergency bypass if needed. It is probably better that the state maintains it and not some local agency. Most interstates in Indiana have a local alternative nearby, I-64 has SR 68, I-69 has SR 57 in the south, I-70 has US 40, I-74 has US 136 and SR 46 in the southeast, I-80/90 have US 20 and SR 2. The only sections that have eliminated or moved onto the interstate itself is if it follows the older route exactly, such as US 421 on I-74 or US 52 on I-65.
Counties/cities aren't going to take back US 31 south of I-465. If AASHTO were to somehow axe US 31 (which I severely doubt ever happens), US 31 south of I-465 would likely become a new iteration of IN 431, or if US 31 were entirely out of the state, it could just be IN 31.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 09, 2023, 07:10:00 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 09, 2023, 07:10:00 PM
Another option, which I think is most likely, is to just leave US 31 on its existing alignment between Louisville, KY and Indianapolis, IN. US 31 passes far enough from parallel Interstate 65 to still be its own route, especially the segment between Seymour and Corn Brook.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Moose on November 09, 2023, 10:01:04 PM
Post by: Moose on November 09, 2023, 10:01:04 PM
Quote from: I-55 on November 09, 2023, 05:06:47 PM
I remember a proposal from maybe 5 or so years ago to move 31 to I-65 between Indy and Louisville. I was unable to find a dedicated thread here (though I know it was discussed, may be buried in the Indiana Notes thread?)
Yeah we discussed it on here, it was a study or something.
From memory
US-31 between Seymour and Jeffersonville was found to be completely superfluous, it has absolutely no through traffic.
It is all low speed 55mph two lane roads with many small towns.
It has two places it crosses I-65, one of which is compromised by tight curves.
Another place with an odd curve is the former 31E/31W split, 31 follows a short section of the former 31E to just north of Jeffersonville, where they force you to get on the I-65 ramp system there to get to the old 31 bridge.
Off all three sections, this has almost no through traffic. It never gets more then 1 mile away from I-65.
Seymour around the back side of Columbus was compared to the now rerouted and now local road former US-52 along Sagamore Parkway in Lafayette. There they recommended turning it to state roads. (Possibly IN 7 and IN 9). Local traffic in Columbus makes trying to use it as a through route very costly time wise. The only large amount through traffic on the section was those headed to Madison IN. INDOT also noted that US-31 from Seymour to Columbus was a duplication of another state route IN-11, which is shorter.
The all four lane section from Taylorsville to Indianapolis was compared to the Lebanon to Lafayette portion of US-52. A four lane road which does see a good bit of Indianapolis bound traffic from the south. The recommendation was to keep this section as a federal Highway. Though they noted mounting delays from Greenwood traffic.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Revive 755 on November 09, 2023, 10:15:09 PM
Post by: Revive 755 on November 09, 2023, 10:15:09 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 09, 2023, 08:20:53 AM
31 is going no where.
I wouldn't be surprised if a section or two gets moved onto I-65 as happened with US 40 being moved onto I-70 around Terre Haute. The section around Clarksville and Jeffersonville seems likely for this, with the section through the southern Indianapolis suburbs south of I-465 being another possibility (maybe Greenwood wants to put a fancy streetscape their section someday).
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Moose on November 09, 2023, 10:23:40 PM
Post by: Moose on November 09, 2023, 10:23:40 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on November 09, 2023, 10:15:09 PMQuote from: silverback1065 on November 09, 2023, 08:20:53 AM
31 is going no where.
I wouldn't be surprised if a section or two gets moved onto I-65 as happened with US 40 being moved onto I-70 around Terre Haute. The section around Clarksville and Jeffersonville seems likely for this, with the section through the southern Indianapolis suburbs south of I-465 being another possibility (maybe Greenwood wants to put a fancy streetscape their section someday).
US-52 was rerouted in Lafayette in 2013 as well.
The worst and weirdest part is the old 31E section from Sellersburg to Jeffersonville.
US31 used to split there. 31W followed a (still intact) alignment down to New Albany. 31 to 31W was the straight route. You had (and still do) to turn to go down 31E from 31 to Jeffersonville. And of late, there is a huge lack of signage for 31 there, instead a sign there points to the Interstate Exit (which is right there) to go to Louisville.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: JREwing78 on November 10, 2023, 01:22:36 PM
Post by: JREwing78 on November 10, 2023, 01:22:36 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on November 09, 2023, 05:27:44 PM
In any case, US 31 serves as a good alternative route in the event of problems along I-65, a good emergency bypass if needed. It is probably better that the state maintains it and not some local agency.
That's probably the best argument for status quo.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 10, 2023, 01:29:54 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 10, 2023, 01:29:54 PM
Maybe they should erect Alternate Interstate 65 signs along US 31. They have them all over the place here in Wisconsin, although I don't know if Indiana has commissioned any. Here is an example here in Madison just north of the US 51/STH 30 interchange: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1076195,-89.3162817,3a,75y,3.21h,80.37t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIMtOqlsrfYc3ewmeMP9uXw!2e0!5s20220801T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu. And another just south of the interchange: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1053642,-89.3166846,3a,75y,188.26h,80.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suVmQGJmMSvRZKqAk7iyPsA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Moose on November 10, 2023, 01:45:46 PM
Post by: Moose on November 10, 2023, 01:45:46 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 10, 2023, 01:29:54 PM
Maybe they should erect Alternate Interstate 65 signs along US 31. They have them all over the place here in Wisconsin, although I don't know if Indiana has commissioned any. Here is an example here in Madison just north of the US 51/STH 30 interchange: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1076195,-89.3162817,3a,75y,3.21h,80.37t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIMtOqlsrfYc3ewmeMP9uXw!2e0!5s20220801T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu. And another just south of the interchange: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1053642,-89.3166846,3a,75y,188.26h,80.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suVmQGJmMSvRZKqAk7iyPsA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu.
Its pretty much the alternate. US 31 signage is sparse south of Seymour.. and at every major highway crossroad where I-65 is close. There are hordes of To I-65 signs. It is also not uncommon to see the road just closed with little to no warning for whatever maintenance project is going on. The maintenance on the route, south of Columbus is the bare minimum Indot can spend.
Entertaining the idea that US-31 is any kind of Alternative to I-65 in Southern Indiana, particularly south of Seymour is frankly a joke.
"In 2010, INDOT figured that lowest traffic levels were the 3,690 personal vehicles and 160 commercial vehicles that used the highway daily near Memphis. (Indiana)"
Yeah I actually use it a good bit myself. But removing the signs won't keep you from using it as a through route if someone really wants. It is acknowledging the starke current reality that US-31 designation in Southern Indiana is almost a complete anachronism, a forgotten through highway that only a few use north of Columbus as a through route.
So removing US 31 in southern Indiana, and giving the Indy north section a different designation.. kind of makes sense. Particularly when US-31 is I-196 in Michigan for a decent part of its length.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: TempoNick on November 10, 2023, 01:59:53 PM
Post by: TempoNick on November 10, 2023, 01:59:53 PM
Quote from: Moose on November 10, 2023, 01:45:46 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on November 10, 2023, 01:29:54 PM
Maybe they should erect Alternate Interstate 65 signs along US 31. They have them all over the place here in Wisconsin, although I don't know if Indiana has commissioned any. Here is an example here in Madison just north of the US 51/STH 30 interchange: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1076195,-89.3162817,3a,75y,3.21h,80.37t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIMtOqlsrfYc3ewmeMP9uXw!2e0!5s20220801T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu. And another just south of the interchange: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1053642,-89.3166846,3a,75y,188.26h,80.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suVmQGJmMSvRZKqAk7iyPsA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu.
Its pretty much the alternate. US 31 signage is sparse south of Seymour.. and at every major highway crossroad where I-65 is close. There are hordes of To I-65 signs. It is also not uncommon to see the road just closed with little to no warning for whatever maintenance project is going on. The maintenance on the route, south of Columbus is the bare minimum Indot can spend.
Entertaining the idea that US-31 is any kind of Alternative to I-65 in Southern Indiana, particularly south of Seymour is frankly a joke.
"In 2010, INDOT figured that lowest traffic levels were the 3,690 personal vehicles and 160 commercial vehicles that used the highway daily near Memphis. (Indiana)"
Yeah I actually use it a good bit myself. But removing the signs won't keep you from using it as a through route if someone really wants. It is acknowledging the starke current reality that US-31 designation in Southern Indiana is almost a complete anachronism, a forgotten through highway that only a few use north of Columbus as a through route.
So removing US 31 in southern Indiana, and giving the Indy north section a different designation.. kind of makes sense. Particularly when US-31 is I-196 in Michigan for a decent part of its length.
Sounds a little like US 40 in central Ohio. However, when there is something going on on I-70 that slows traffic, I have used it before. No, it wouldn't need to be built today, but it's already there, so it doesn't hurt to keep it around as an alternate route if you need it.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Moose on November 10, 2023, 02:03:41 PM
Post by: Moose on November 10, 2023, 02:03:41 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on November 10, 2023, 01:59:53 PMQuote from: Moose on November 10, 2023, 01:45:46 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on November 10, 2023, 01:29:54 PM
Maybe they should erect Alternate Interstate 65 signs along US 31. They have them all over the place here in Wisconsin, although I don't know if Indiana has commissioned any. Here is an example here in Madison just north of the US 51/STH 30 interchange: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1076195,-89.3162817,3a,75y,3.21h,80.37t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIMtOqlsrfYc3ewmeMP9uXw!2e0!5s20220801T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu. And another just south of the interchange: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1053642,-89.3166846,3a,75y,188.26h,80.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suVmQGJmMSvRZKqAk7iyPsA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu.
Its pretty much the alternate. US 31 signage is sparse south of Seymour.. and at every major highway crossroad where I-65 is close. There are hordes of To I-65 signs. It is also not uncommon to see the road just closed with little to no warning for whatever maintenance project is going on. The maintenance on the route, south of Columbus is the bare minimum Indot can spend.
Entertaining the idea that US-31 is any kind of Alternative to I-65 in Southern Indiana, particularly south of Seymour is frankly a joke.
"In 2010, INDOT figured that lowest traffic levels were the 3,690 personal vehicles and 160 commercial vehicles that used the highway daily near Memphis. (Indiana)"
Yeah I actually use it a good bit myself. But removing the signs won't keep you from using it as a through route if someone really wants. It is acknowledging the starke current reality that US-31 designation in Southern Indiana is almost a complete anachronism, a forgotten through highway that only a few use north of Columbus as a through route.
So removing US 31 in southern Indiana, and giving the Indy north section a different designation.. kind of makes sense. Particularly when US-31 is I-196 in Michigan for a decent part of its length.
Sounds a little like US 40 in central Ohio. However, when there is something going on on I-70 that slows traffic, I have used it before. No, it wouldn't need to be built today, but it's already there, so it doesn't hurt to keep it around as an alternate route if you need it.
Similar situation. Only that 31 South of Columbus is all 2 lane blacktop, I remember that much of US-40 is at least four lane there.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: TempoNick on November 10, 2023, 07:28:12 PM
Post by: TempoNick on November 10, 2023, 07:28:12 PM
Quote from: Moose on November 10, 2023, 02:03:41 PM
Similar situation. Only that 31 South of Columbus is all 2 lane blacktop, I remember that much of US-40 is at least four lane there.
Yes, I think US 40 is mostly four-lane highway from about maybe Cambridge, Ohio to Springfield, Ohio. Some two sections, but mostly four lane. Then from Springfield to just west of Richmond, Indiana it's mostly two lane and urban four lane if I remember correctly. Then from Richmond to Indianapolis it's mostly four lane, but maybe not as free-flowing as the Ohio four-lane sections.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Captain Jack on November 11, 2023, 10:25:28 AM
Post by: Captain Jack on November 11, 2023, 10:25:28 AM
Quote from: Moose on November 08, 2023, 08:39:31 PMQuote from: TempoNick on November 08, 2023, 11:46:17 AM
I'm a big fan of Interstate quality roads and Interstate designations. They are very helpful for travelers. A US shield means nothing. It could be anything from a crappy two-lane road like US 52 in the southern tip of West Virginia, to an interstate style highway. At the very least, they should come up with different colored US shields so that you know what kind of highway you are on. (Blue for true freeway and maybe red for divided four lane rural with at grade intersections.)
US-31 as a designation could honestly be endangered in sections north of Louisville.
Its happened before, when US-25 disappeared north of Cinci.
Also 31W disappeared in Indiana too.
I know at times US-31 south of Indianapolis has been deemed rather superfluous. Particularly the section Columbus South.. but the section from Columbus north isn't much better. Except for goofballs like me.. I don't know anyone that really uses US-31 in Southern Indiana as a through route.
I swear I remember proposals to just eliminate the US-31 designation on the existing route south of Indy to Louisville.
Just on Thursday, I had account visits in Franklin, Columbus and Scottsburg. Never set foot on 65. Now admittedly, keeping a designation because a few "goofballs" like us have a thing for them doesn't make a lot of sense. Of course you can argue that 31 doesn't serve as a through route, but that same argument can be made for virtually any US Highway that parallels an interstate. Why not just drop 31 from Indy all the way to Mobile? There's plenty of more examples than what you listed. In Indiana alone, US 27 now ends in Ft. Wayne instead of its original point at Mackinac, and we lost US 460 completely and it never hugged I-64 as closely as most parallel routes.
The appetite for removing US Route designations appears to have slowed considerably in the last few years. I would imagine in large part due to the growth and interest in "Historic Routes". Even in the 60's and 70's, eliminations were more of a state by state thing. Places like California and Illinois had hatchets out while the southern states rarely if ever did anything. Another reason I think 31 is safe for years to come. I don't recall Kentucky or Tennessee eliminating much of anything in the last 50-70 years.
I doubt 31 will be eliminated. The appetite for eliminating routes has appeared to slow down some in recent years.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: TempoNick on November 11, 2023, 11:17:46 AM
Post by: TempoNick on November 11, 2023, 11:17:46 AM
Quote from: Captain Jack on November 11, 2023, 10:25:28 AM
Just on Thursday, I had account visits in Franklin, Columbus and Scottsburg. Never set foot on 65. Now admittedly, keeping a designation because a few "goofballs" like us have a thing for them doesn't make a lot of sense. Of course you can argue that 31 doesn't serve as a through route, but that same argument can be made for virtually any US Highway that parallels an interstate. Why not just drop 31 from Indy all the way to Mobile? There's plenty of more examples than what you listed. In Indiana alone, US 27 now ends in Ft. Wayne instead of its original point at Mackinac, and we lost US 460 completely and it never hugged I-64 as closely as most parallel routes.
The appetite for removing US Route designations appears to have slowed considerably in the last few years. I would imagine in large part due to the growth and interest in "Historic Routes". Even in the 60's and 70's, eliminations were more of a state by state thing. Places like California and Illinois had hatchets out while the southern states rarely if ever did anything. Another reason I think 31 is safe for years to come. I don't recall Kentucky or Tennessee eliminating much of anything in the last 50-70 years.
I doubt 31 will be eliminated. The appetite for eliminating routes has appeared to slow down some in recent years.
It doesn't hurt to have a number to unify these roads. Even if these routes have fallen in disuse, it's still better than a disjointed bunch of road names or even a disjointed bunch of state routes with different numbers from state to state. I don't know what the actual road names would be, but I'm sure it would change from Indianapolis Road, to Columbus Road to Seymour Road or something like that. And what's the point of going from Indiana 931 to Kentucky 436 to Tennessee 822 or whatever random numbers they pick for the former US 31. Just leave the US 31 sign up and keep it unified everywhere.
I know you guys probably don't want to hear too much Ohio stuff, but it serves as a good analogy. US 23 here goes from High Street, to Columbus Road, to Marion - Waldo Road north of here. I don't know what it's called to the South, I'm sure it's something like Columbus-Circleville Road. Having just one number makes things so much simpler.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on November 11, 2023, 04:06:58 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on November 11, 2023, 04:06:58 PM
ok now you guys are making me want to drive this stretch of 31 before it goes away :-D
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 11, 2023, 08:54:38 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 11, 2023, 08:54:38 PM
It isn't going away. I'm sure the odds of US 31 being decommissioned between Louisville and Indianapolis, or having 31 completely moved onto parallel Interstate 65, has as much of a chance becoming a reality as many of the proposals of Fictional Highways coming into fruition.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on November 11, 2023, 09:48:20 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on November 11, 2023, 09:48:20 PM
US 136 seems more useless than 31.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: TempoNick on November 12, 2023, 02:23:58 AM
Post by: TempoNick on November 12, 2023, 02:23:58 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 11, 2023, 09:48:20 PM
US 136 seems more useless than 31.
Same idea. Instead of cornucopia of road names, it's one continuous route identified by a number. It may be useless, but US 136 is easier then remembering the various local road names if you have a destination somewhere along there.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: bmeiser on November 12, 2023, 03:22:53 AM
Post by: bmeiser on November 12, 2023, 03:22:53 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 11, 2023, 09:48:20 PMDepends on who you ask. I live in Pittsboro and use it all the time to go to Brownsburg or Lizton. Nice to avoid the 65/ green street exit if I'm not going to that side of town.
US 136 seems more useless than 31.
Pixel 7
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: jnewkirk77 on November 12, 2023, 07:31:26 PM
Post by: jnewkirk77 on November 12, 2023, 07:31:26 PM
Look. INDOT's own traffic counts show 4,000-10,000 vpd in the smaller cities through which 31 passes south of Columbus. It's 20,000+ through Columbus and north toward Indy, except in a few rural areas.
If I may paraphrase Sheriff Buford T. Justice here, "there is NO WAY, NO WAY this road gets decommissioned."
(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/54/06/ed/5406ed15c6103e46e21e4fc8db57d032.jpg)
Now where's my Diablo sandwich and Dr. Pepper???
If I may paraphrase Sheriff Buford T. Justice here, "there is NO WAY, NO WAY this road gets decommissioned."
(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/54/06/ed/5406ed15c6103e46e21e4fc8db57d032.jpg)
Now where's my Diablo sandwich and Dr. Pepper???
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 13, 2023, 10:01:23 AM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 13, 2023, 10:01:23 AM
Has anyone ever seen Smokey and the Bandit? Or its two sequels? I haven't. In any event, I don't expect US 31 to be decommissioned, as I have stated before.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: TempoNick on November 13, 2023, 11:14:41 AM
Post by: TempoNick on November 13, 2023, 11:14:41 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 13, 2023, 10:01:23 AM
Has anyone ever seen Smokey and the Bandit? Or its two sequels? I haven't. In any event, I don't expect US 31 to be decommissioned, as I have stated before.
It was just on the other night on CMT.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Rothman on November 13, 2023, 02:05:22 PM
Post by: Rothman on November 13, 2023, 02:05:22 PM
I've seen the first two. Stayed away from the third, since that ain't Burt Reynolds...
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: JREwing78 on November 13, 2023, 09:35:30 PM
Post by: JREwing78 on November 13, 2023, 09:35:30 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 13, 2023, 10:01:23 AM
Has anyone ever seen Smokey and the Bandit? Or its two sequels? I haven't.
The sequels can be safely skipped, but the original Smokey and the Bandit is worth watching, if only for the cultural references.
Watching it on TV, however, is kind of a drag; you need the unedited version with all the cussing included.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Moose on November 17, 2023, 02:25:31 PM
Post by: Moose on November 17, 2023, 02:25:31 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=730206225800461&set=a.301374875350267
" U.S. 31 and 236th Street in Hamilton County is back open to traffic"
(https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/401834866_730206222467128_8804076083363299689_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=foHOGXWVmM4AX_6Oj5J&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfDtf_fum_vF0fRhQdipGUb2viUxuZcjB5YK6hQPKom07A&oe=655D3091)
" U.S. 31 and 236th Street in Hamilton County is back open to traffic"
(https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/401834866_730206222467128_8804076083363299689_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=foHOGXWVmM4AX_6Oj5J&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfDtf_fum_vF0fRhQdipGUb2viUxuZcjB5YK6hQPKom07A&oe=655D3091)
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on November 18, 2023, 04:21:55 PM
Post by: monty on November 18, 2023, 04:21:55 PM
🚧🚦🚦TRAFFIC ALERT🚦🚦🚧
DIVISION RD & US 31 TRAFFIC SIGNAL
The traffic signal at Division RD & US 31 will be reactivated in all directions on November 21st. Please use caution in the area due to the change in the traffic pattern and keep a safe follow distance from vehicles in front of you as sudden braking and stopping are to be expected.
Please SHARE this post to help spread the word before it's reactivated. We thank you in advance.
DIVISION RD & US 31 TRAFFIC SIGNAL
The traffic signal at Division RD & US 31 will be reactivated in all directions on November 21st. Please use caution in the area due to the change in the traffic pattern and keep a safe follow distance from vehicles in front of you as sudden braking and stopping are to be expected.
Please SHARE this post to help spread the word before it's reactivated. We thank you in advance.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 18, 2023, 04:59:22 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 18, 2023, 04:59:22 PM
How long before the W. Division Rd. singled intersection is replaced with an interchange, a grade-separation, or a cul-de-sac? The goal, after all, was to remove all signals on US 31 between Indianapolis and South Bend. I know the freeway conversion of that segment of US 31 (IN 38 to IN 931) was pushed back due to more study needed on impacts.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on November 22, 2023, 11:28:27 AM
Post by: monty on November 22, 2023, 11:28:27 AM
Propel study released: https://propelus31.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/US31SPEL_UOAScreeningMemo_RP_WEB.pdf
An interesting read. First release of what "improvement types" may move forward and which ones will not. There are a few tidbits of examples that sneak into this document. Propel is really walking the public through the entire comprehensive exercise.
An interesting read. First release of what "improvement types" may move forward and which ones will not. There are a few tidbits of examples that sneak into this document. Propel is really walking the public through the entire comprehensive exercise.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: JREwing78 on November 27, 2023, 03:00:59 PM
Post by: JREwing78 on November 27, 2023, 03:00:59 PM
Quote from: monty on November 22, 2023, 11:28:27 AM
Propel study released: https://propelus31.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/US31SPEL_UOAScreeningMemo_RP_WEB.pdf
An interesting read. First release of what "improvement types" may move forward and which ones will not. There are a few tidbits of examples that sneak into this document. Propel is really walking the public through the entire comprehensive exercise.
This document's primary purpose is documentation of InDOT's planning process, so that someone can't come back and complain that they were unfairly singled out or denied information, or complain that InDOT didn't do this and that in their planning process. Basically, it gives InDOT license to tell someone complaining that mass transit wasn't considered, for example, to sit down and STFU.
The only thing that puzzles me is the section about signalized intersections; while it doesn't discuss the addition of new signalized intersections (thankfully), it also doesn't really push the idea of actively removing them either. Frankly, leaving any kind of signalized intersection on the table is ridiculous and idiotic, given the substantial safety risks of such intersections on a high-speed divided highway. I'm sure InDOT isn't seriously considering retaining existing signalized intersections, but the document leaving that option on the table is bad planning.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on December 27, 2023, 12:38:24 PM
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on December 27, 2023, 12:38:24 PM
There was no announcement or news, but the US 31 interchange at 276th Street is now open as of December 26th.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 27, 2023, 12:59:58 PM
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 27, 2023, 12:59:58 PM
Google Maps has been updated to show the completed interchange: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1906976,-86.1267159,1038m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: cjw2001 on March 27, 2024, 02:50:04 PM
Post by: cjw2001 on March 27, 2024, 02:50:04 PM
INDOT just published the Level 2 Screening Reports for the US 30 and US 31 studies. (https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/392de0c)
In addition to the specific reports for US 30 (https://propelus30.com/30doclibrary/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery) and US 31 (https://propelus31.com/31doclibrary/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery) there is an interactive map with embedded presentations on each intersection (https://propelus30.com/alternatives/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery).
In addition to the specific reports for US 30 (https://propelus30.com/30doclibrary/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery) and US 31 (https://propelus31.com/31doclibrary/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery) there is an interactive map with embedded presentations on each intersection (https://propelus30.com/alternatives/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery).
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: I-55 on March 28, 2024, 01:56:23 AM
Post by: I-55 on March 28, 2024, 01:56:23 AM
Quote from: cjw2001 on March 27, 2024, 02:50:04 PMINDOT just published the Level 2 Screening Reports for the US 30 and US 31 studies. (https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/INDOT/bulletins/392de0c)
In addition to the specific reports for US 30 (https://propelus30.com/30doclibrary/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery) and US 31 (https://propelus31.com/31doclibrary/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery) there is an interactive map with embedded presentations on each intersection (https://propelus30.com/alternatives/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery).
Great, now I'm gonna be up all night :coffee:
Reading through US 30 (East) first and it seems that the public generally wants freeway type improvements, and said improvements are the primary focus of the study.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on March 28, 2024, 02:48:43 AM
Post by: ITB on March 28, 2024, 02:48:43 AM
For those who don't want to wade through the draft Level Two Screening Report, here's a summary of the US 31 South study area and the suggested alternatives for various intersections, interchanges, and other crossings. The South study area extends from 276th Street in Hamilton County to just south of the Eel River in Miami County.
Hamilton County
• 276th Street
— no additional improvement warranted
• 296th Street
— reduced conflict intersection [J turns]
— traditional interchange (probably a diamond or tight diamond, w/roundabouts; shifted north)
— access modifications (close off intersection)
Tipton County
• SR 28
— minor ramp improvements
• Division Road
— reduced conflict intersection
— quadrant roadway (3 traffic signals — two on US 31)
— traditional interchange w/roundabouts
— quadrant interchange w/roundabouts (similar to folded diamond, but smaller footprint; positioned north)
• CR 550 N (Sharpsville)
— reduced conflict intersection
— traditional interchange w/roundabouts
— access modifications (right-in, right-out only)
Miami County
• SR 18
— reduced conflict intersection
— quadrant roadway (two traffic lights, US 31)
— traditional interchange w/roundabouts
• CR 800 S (Bunker Hill)
— reduced conflict intersection
— traditional interchange w/roundabouts
• SR 218 S (Bunker Hill)
— reduced conflict intersection
— green T intersection (one light, US 31 northbound)
— access modifications (close off intersection)
• SR 218 N (Bunker Hill)
— reduced conflict intersection
— green T intersection (one light, US 31 southbound)
— greet T interchange (one light, US 31 northbound; southbound, free flow)
— traditional interchange
• CR 500 S
— reduced conflict intersection
— overpass
— access modifications (right-in, right-out only)
• CR 400 S
— reduced conflict intersection
— overpass
• Business US 31 (Peru)
— green T intersection (one traffic light, US 31)
— green T interchange (one traffic light southbound, US 31; northbound, free flow)
— traditional interchange
• W Airport Road (Peru)
— Right-in, Right-out only
— Seal off intersection
• Logansport Road
— reduced conflict intersection
— green T intersection (one traffic light, US 31)
— traditional interchange (folded diamond; positioned south)
• Blair Pike Road
— reduced conflict intersection
— access modifications (right-in, right-out only)
• US 24
— existing and projected conditions deemed sufficient; no improvements being considered
• CR 100 N/N Eel River Cemetery Road
— reduced conflict intersection
— quadrant roadway (two traffic lights, US 31)
— relocate intersection to the north
— access modifications (access roads, right-in, right-out)
• CR 200 N
— reduced conflict intersection
— traditional interchange
— access modifications (right-in, right-out)
Please bear in mind this is a rough summary on my part. And keep in mind, too, there may be more to "access modifications" than what is simply highlighted in the parentheses. For instance, if an intersection is sealed off, more than likely new or improved access roads will be built as well.
I'll try to get around to doing a summary of the US 31 North study area soon.
Hamilton County
• 276th Street
— no additional improvement warranted
• 296th Street
— reduced conflict intersection [J turns]
— traditional interchange (probably a diamond or tight diamond, w/roundabouts; shifted north)
— access modifications (close off intersection)
Tipton County
• SR 28
— minor ramp improvements
• Division Road
— reduced conflict intersection
— quadrant roadway (3 traffic signals — two on US 31)
— traditional interchange w/roundabouts
— quadrant interchange w/roundabouts (similar to folded diamond, but smaller footprint; positioned north)
• CR 550 N (Sharpsville)
— reduced conflict intersection
— traditional interchange w/roundabouts
— access modifications (right-in, right-out only)
Miami County
• SR 18
— reduced conflict intersection
— quadrant roadway (two traffic lights, US 31)
— traditional interchange w/roundabouts
• CR 800 S (Bunker Hill)
— reduced conflict intersection
— traditional interchange w/roundabouts
• SR 218 S (Bunker Hill)
— reduced conflict intersection
— green T intersection (one light, US 31 northbound)
— access modifications (close off intersection)
• SR 218 N (Bunker Hill)
— reduced conflict intersection
— green T intersection (one light, US 31 southbound)
— greet T interchange (one light, US 31 northbound; southbound, free flow)
— traditional interchange
• CR 500 S
— reduced conflict intersection
— overpass
— access modifications (right-in, right-out only)
• CR 400 S
— reduced conflict intersection
— overpass
• Business US 31 (Peru)
— green T intersection (one traffic light, US 31)
— green T interchange (one traffic light southbound, US 31; northbound, free flow)
— traditional interchange
• W Airport Road (Peru)
— Right-in, Right-out only
— Seal off intersection
• Logansport Road
— reduced conflict intersection
— green T intersection (one traffic light, US 31)
— traditional interchange (folded diamond; positioned south)
• Blair Pike Road
— reduced conflict intersection
— access modifications (right-in, right-out only)
• US 24
— existing and projected conditions deemed sufficient; no improvements being considered
• CR 100 N/N Eel River Cemetery Road
— reduced conflict intersection
— quadrant roadway (two traffic lights, US 31)
— relocate intersection to the north
— access modifications (access roads, right-in, right-out)
• CR 200 N
— reduced conflict intersection
— traditional interchange
— access modifications (right-in, right-out)
Please bear in mind this is a rough summary on my part. And keep in mind, too, there may be more to "access modifications" than what is simply highlighted in the parentheses. For instance, if an intersection is sealed off, more than likely new or improved access roads will be built as well.
I'll try to get around to doing a summary of the US 31 North study area soon.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on March 28, 2024, 05:15:17 PM
Post by: ITB on March 28, 2024, 05:15:17 PM
And here's the alternatives suggested for the US 31 North study area. The North study area, which extends from just south of Eel River in Miami County to just south of the Fulton/Marshall County Line, focused on eight intersections and interchanges. Of the alternatives suggested for each focus area, one will be selected.
Miami County
CR 550 N/Mexico Road
— overpass
— traditional interchange (diamond)
SR 16
— reduced conflict intersection [J turns]
— traditional interchange (diamond)
— quadrant interchange (smaller footprint than traditional interchange) w/roundabouts
Fulton/Miami County
CR 650 S/CR 1350 N
— reduced conflict intersection
— quadrant interchange w/roundabouts
— traditional interchange (diamond)
Fulton County
CR 150 S/Wabash Avenue (Rochester)
— reduced conflict intersection
— overpass
— quadrant interchange w/roundabouts
Old US 31/Southway (Rochester)
— reduced conflict intersection
— overpass (US 31 — over)
— overpass (Old US 31/Southway — over)
SR 25 Interchange (Rochester)
— improve ramps; add roundabouts
— ramp terminal improvements
CR 100 N/6th Street (Rochester)
— reduced conflict intersection
— overpass
Olsen Road
— reduced conflict intersection
— overpass (Olsen road — over)
— quadrant interchange w/roundabouts
— traditional interchange (diamond)
Again, please keep in mind this is a rough summary on my part. While I have tried to be accurate and complete, I may have missed an item or two. Also, the No Build alternative was carried forward for all suggested alternatives for both for US 31 North and 31 South studies.
Miami County
CR 550 N/Mexico Road
— overpass
— traditional interchange (diamond)
SR 16
— reduced conflict intersection [J turns]
— traditional interchange (diamond)
— quadrant interchange (smaller footprint than traditional interchange) w/roundabouts
Fulton/Miami County
CR 650 S/CR 1350 N
— reduced conflict intersection
— quadrant interchange w/roundabouts
— traditional interchange (diamond)
Fulton County
CR 150 S/Wabash Avenue (Rochester)
— reduced conflict intersection
— overpass
— quadrant interchange w/roundabouts
Old US 31/Southway (Rochester)
— reduced conflict intersection
— overpass (US 31 — over)
— overpass (Old US 31/Southway — over)
SR 25 Interchange (Rochester)
— improve ramps; add roundabouts
— ramp terminal improvements
CR 100 N/6th Street (Rochester)
— reduced conflict intersection
— overpass
Olsen Road
— reduced conflict intersection
— overpass (Olsen road — over)
— quadrant interchange w/roundabouts
— traditional interchange (diamond)
Again, please keep in mind this is a rough summary on my part. While I have tried to be accurate and complete, I may have missed an item or two. Also, the No Build alternative was carried forward for all suggested alternatives for both for US 31 North and 31 South studies.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on March 28, 2024, 07:46:28 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on March 28, 2024, 07:46:28 PM
can someone post an example of a green T interchange that is already built, I have never seen one before.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on March 28, 2024, 08:22:12 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on March 28, 2024, 08:22:12 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on March 28, 2024, 07:46:28 PMcan someone post an example of a green T interchange that is already built, I have never seen one before.Something like this?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Sx5mP93CE6ZibZ4X9?g_st=ic
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on March 28, 2024, 09:02:22 PM
Post by: ITB on March 28, 2024, 09:02:22 PM
INDOT has a page devoted to the Green T Intersection:
https://www.in.gov/indot/traffic-engineering/green-t-intersection/
And included on that page is a video:
From the schematics I've seen, the main difference between a Green T Intersection and a Green T Interchange is that one of the two roadways is grade separated.
https://www.in.gov/indot/traffic-engineering/green-t-intersection/
And included on that page is a video:
From the schematics I've seen, the main difference between a Green T Intersection and a Green T Interchange is that one of the two roadways is grade separated.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: JREwing78 on March 29, 2024, 01:25:18 PM
Post by: JREwing78 on March 29, 2024, 01:25:18 PM
Any additional traffic signals would be a disaster. They are better off with J-turns (the "Reduced Conflict Intersection") if most traffic is turning, and biting the bullet on an interchange if it's more evenly split.
The fewer stoplights that remain, the more dangerous each one becomes. Most travelers are going to treat US-31 like a freeway; far too many are too distracted and will rear-end those who are actually paying attention to the stoplights.
The fewer stoplights that remain, the more dangerous each one becomes. Most travelers are going to treat US-31 like a freeway; far too many are too distracted and will rear-end those who are actually paying attention to the stoplights.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on March 29, 2024, 03:31:26 PM
Post by: ITB on March 29, 2024, 03:31:26 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on March 29, 2024, 01:25:18 PMThe fewer stoplights that remain, the more dangerous each one becomes. Most travelers are going to treat US-31 like a freeway; far too many are too distracted and will rear-end those who are actually paying attention to the stoplights.
Agree. INDOT needs to move toward making US 31 an entirely limited-access facility between Indy and South Bend. Anything else is going to be problematic, all the more so as traffic counts increase. No stop lights, no RIRO, no driveways, and so on.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: sprjus4 on March 29, 2024, 04:56:47 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on March 29, 2024, 04:56:47 PM
Quote from: ITB on March 29, 2024, 03:31:26 PMI think the focus will be on Indianapolis to Kokomo. The traffic volumes are lighter north of there that freeway might not be an immediate priority. I do agree with eliminating all the traffic signals, however, and allowing a free flow divided highway all the way to South Bend.Quote from: JREwing78 on March 29, 2024, 01:25:18 PMThe fewer stoplights that remain, the more dangerous each one becomes. Most travelers are going to treat US-31 like a freeway; far too many are too distracted and will rear-end those who are actually paying attention to the stoplights.
Agree. INDOT needs to move toward making US 31 an entirely limited-access facility between Indy and South Bend. Anything else is going to be problematic, all the more so as traffic counts increase. No stop lights, no RIRO, no driveways, and so on.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on March 29, 2024, 08:40:55 PM
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on March 29, 2024, 08:40:55 PM
Quote from: ITB on March 29, 2024, 03:31:26 PMQuote from: JREwing78 on March 29, 2024, 01:25:18 PMThe fewer stoplights that remain, the more dangerous each one becomes. Most travelers are going to treat US-31 like a freeway; far too many are too distracted and will rear-end those who are actually paying attention to the stoplights.
Agree. INDOT needs to move toward making US 31 an entirely limited-access facility between Indy and South Bend. Anything else is going to be problematic, all the more so as traffic counts increase. No stop lights, no RIRO, no driveways, and so on.
The Plymouth to Peru section is not a priority. Not as much traffic, no really dangerous intersections. It does need to eventually be limited access all the way up to Peru though.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on March 30, 2024, 12:14:42 PM
Post by: monty on March 30, 2024, 12:14:42 PM
Quote from: ITB on March 28, 2024, 02:48:43 AMFor those who don't want to wade through the draft Level Two Screening Report, here's a summary of the US 31 South study area and the suggested alternatives for various intersections, interchanges, and other crossings. The South study area extends from 276th Street in Hamilton County to just south of the Eel River in Miami County.Thanks for posting the summaries. It's going to be interesting to see if INDOT goes with the good, better, or best scenarios. It all comes down to money invested. In my opinion, it will be many years before these segments will again receive this level of attention after the prescribed solutions are applied.
Hamilton County
• 276th Street
— no additional improvement warranted
• 296th Street
— reduced conflict intersection [J turns]
— traditional interchange (probably a diamond or tight diamond, w/roundabouts; shifted north)
— access modifications (close off intersection)
Tipton County
• SR 28
— minor ramp improvements
• Division Road
— reduced conflict intersection
— quadrant roadway (3 traffic signals — two on US 31)
— traditional interchange w/roundabouts
— quadrant interchange w/roundabouts (similar to folded diamond, but smaller footprint; positioned north)
• CR 550 N (Sharpsville)
— reduced conflict intersection
— traditional interchange w/roundabouts
— access modifications (right-in, right-out only)
Miami County
• SR 18
— reduced conflict intersection
— quadrant roadway (two traffic lights, US 31)
— traditional interchange w/roundabouts
• CR 800 S (Bunker Hill)
— reduced conflict intersection
— traditional interchange w/roundabouts
• SR 218 S (Bunker Hill)
— reduced conflict intersection
— green T intersection (one light, US 31 northbound)
— access modifications (close off intersection)
• SR 218 N (Bunker Hill)
— reduced conflict intersection
— green T intersection (one light, US 31 southbound)
— greet T interchange (one light, US 31 northbound; southbound, free flow)
— traditional interchange
• CR 500 S
— reduced conflict intersection
— overpass
— access modifications (right-in, right-out only)
• CR 400 S
— reduced conflict intersection
— overpass
• Business US 31 (Peru)
— green T intersection (one traffic light, US 31)
— green T interchange (one traffic light southbound, US 31; northbound, free flow)
— traditional interchange
• W Airport Road (Peru)
— Right-in, Right-out only
— Seal off intersection
• Logansport Road
— reduced conflict intersection
— green T intersection (one traffic light, US 31)
— traditional interchange (folded diamond; positioned south)
• Blair Pike Road
— reduced conflict intersection
— access modifications (right-in, right-out only)
• US 24
— existing and projected conditions deemed sufficient; no improvements being considered
• CR 100 N/N Eel River Cemetery Road
— reduced conflict intersection
— quadrant roadway (two traffic lights, US 31)
— relocate intersection to the north
— access modifications (access roads, right-in, right-out)
• CR 200 N
— reduced conflict intersection
— traditional interchange
— access modifications (right-in, right-out)
Please bear in mind this is a rough summary on my part. And keep in mind, too, there may be more to "access modifications" than what is simply highlighted in the parentheses. For instance, if an intersection is sealed off, more than likely new or improved access roads will be built as well.
I'll try to get around to doing a summary of the US 31 North study area soon.
Focusing on the sector from SR 38 to Kokomo, it appears that the identified intersections will become the only access points to the highway, with a median restrictive barrier to be installed, as identified on the INDOT project web site - to be installed all the way up to SR 26.
As others have noted, it seems important to get this leg entirely up to freeway standards due to the traffic growth and development from Indy up to Kokomo. It also seems to be the segment that will set the standard that will prevail as the project moves northward.
Will US 31 continue to be reconfigured to interstate freeway quality from Indy to South Bend or will it just become a modified divided highway driven primarily by safety improvements?
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on March 30, 2024, 04:26:03 PM
Post by: ITB on March 30, 2024, 04:26:03 PM
Quote from: monty on March 30, 2024, 12:14:42 PMIt's going to be interesting to see if INDOT goes with the good, better, or best scenarios. It all comes down to money invested. In my opinion, it will be many years before these segments will again receive this level of attention after the prescribed solutions are applied.
My gut tells me INDOT will be in favor of the interchange and overpass options. I don't see them moving forward with either the Reduced Conflict Intersections or the Green T Interchange/Intersections. RCI's are pretty much a non-starter and the Green T options feature traffic lights, with goes counter to the goal of removing all lights along the corridor.
The Level Two studies have forwarded the interchange option (either traditional or quadrant) for 14 locations between 276th Street in Hamilton County and Olsen Road in Fulton County. Of those, only one — CR 550 N/ Mexico Road in Miami County — will be considered further for either an overpass or interchange. Aside from Mexico Road, four other locations have overpasses as options — two each in Miami and Fulton counties.
There are only two locations indicated in the Level Two studies where neither an interchange or overpass will be forwarded as options — Blair Pike Road and CR 100 N/N Eel River Cemetery Road, both in Miami County. For these two locations, the studies have forwarded options in which direct access points to US 31 will be maintained, either via RIRO intersections or RCIs (as well as two additional options for CR 100 N). To be sure, the CR 100 N locations is a design challenge being, as it is, so close to the US 24 interchange. Good access to the businesses in that area, particularly JJ's Travel Plaza, must be maintained.
Quote from: monty on March 30, 2024, 12:14:42 PMFocusing on the sector from SR 38 to Kokomo, it appears that the identified intersections will become the only access points to the highway, with a median restrictive barrier to be installed, as identified on the INDOT project web site - to be installed all the way up to SR 26.
Yes, that seems to be the favored path forward. Only three interchanges are needed — 296th Street in Hamilton County and Division Road and CR 550 N (Sharpsville) in Tipton County.
Quote from: monty on March 30, 2024, 12:14:42 PMAs others have noted, it seems important to get this leg entirely up to freeway standards due to the traffic growth and development from Indy up to Kokomo. It also seems to be the segment that will set the standard that will prevail as the project moves northward.
Traffic counts on US 31 are likely to increase as the corridor is improved, all the more so if the planned new manufacturing facilities in Kokomo come to fruition. Perhaps its best to look at the corridor improvement project from a long term perspective. Unless INDOT has a windfall, which is unlikely, the corridor won't be built out short term. But over a period of, say, 10 to 12 years, it becomes much more feasible. By building only one interchange and one overpass per year, and two interchanges for a couple of years, INDOT will be able to complete the corridor in a very reasonable time frame.
Quote from: monty on March 30, 2024, 12:14:42 PMWill US 31 continue to be reconfigured to interstate freeway quality from Indy to South Bend or will it just become a modified divided highway driven primarily by safety improvements?
Well, that depends on a lot of factors, many of which are unknowns at this time. INDOT's first goal is the make the facility free flowing. After that is accomplished, they will probably take another hard look at the corridor. But that's likely 10 to 15 years out.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: tdindy88 on March 30, 2024, 05:38:51 PM
Post by: tdindy88 on March 30, 2024, 05:38:51 PM
Quote from: ITB on March 30, 2024, 04:26:03 PMYes, that seems to be the favored path forward. Only three interchanges are needed — 296th Street in Hamilton County and Division Road and CR 550 N (Sharpsville) in Tipton County.
I don't see how 296th could be an interchange if we have 276th just two miles to the south. Wasn't there some thing with there being a four mile gap between exits or something? I would have had exits at 266th and 296th but we had to have a connection to some factories along 276th so I see that exit as serving both 266th and 296th Streets. Probably an overpass for that road.
As for CR 550 N, isn't that like right by the interchange with SR 931. I'm not sure how that would work and is access to Sharpsville that important? They can pretty easily get to US 31 heading north toward SR 26 or south toward Division Road.
That said, there's really only Division Road that should be a shoo-in for an interchange. Which is what's been discussed for a few years now. I feel that INDOT is doing this study just so they can stall for time a bit until they do the inevitable and build an exit there.
Beyond that, build overpasses and cul-de-sacs for the remaining roads. Make US 31 a freeway from I-465 to Kokomo, that should be a no-brainer at this point.
As for north of Kokomo, well, I'm open to more discussion on how that should be done going forward so I can understand studying that.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: Moose on March 30, 2024, 06:26:07 PM
Post by: Moose on March 30, 2024, 06:26:07 PM
Any upgrade that isn't full interstate standards, or at least useful in getting the road to full interstate standards is a waste to me. That goes for US 30 and US 31 both.
No stupid J turns, low conflict intersections or any of this crap..
I really didn't realize it until the 69 upgrade.. how much better it makes the drive.
The deletion of all the access for the "hyperlocal" traffic has a dramatic effect of the quality of the drive for through traffic.
These the cars, farm trucks, and annoying things that turn onto the through road, drive slow, get in the way only go a few miles, and then turn off.. often needing to get into the left lane while being slow as a turtle because of an impending left turn.
Its amazing how much better of a drive the road is once its fully interstate standards.. even without extra lanes.
No stupid J turns, low conflict intersections or any of this crap..
I really didn't realize it until the 69 upgrade.. how much better it makes the drive.
The deletion of all the access for the "hyperlocal" traffic has a dramatic effect of the quality of the drive for through traffic.
These the cars, farm trucks, and annoying things that turn onto the through road, drive slow, get in the way only go a few miles, and then turn off.. often needing to get into the left lane while being slow as a turtle because of an impending left turn.
Its amazing how much better of a drive the road is once its fully interstate standards.. even without extra lanes.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on March 30, 2024, 07:11:08 PM
Post by: ITB on March 30, 2024, 07:11:08 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on March 30, 2024, 05:38:51 PMQuote from: ITB on March 30, 2024, 04:26:03 PMYes, that seems to be the favored path forward. Only three interchanges are needed — 296th Street in Hamilton County and Division Road and CR 550 N (Sharpsville) in Tipton County.
I don't see how 296th could be an interchange if we have 276th just two miles to the south. Wasn't there some thing with there being a four mile gap between exits or something? I would have had exits at 266th and 296th but we had to have a connection to some factories along 276th so I see that exit as serving both 266th and 296th Streets. Probably an overpass for that road.
As for CR 550 N, isn't that like right by the interchange with SR 931. I'm not sure how that would work and is access to Sharpsville that important? They can pretty easily get to US 31 heading north toward SR 26 or south toward Division Road.
Good points. The suggested interchange alternatives at 296th Street and CR 550 N (Sharpesville) are indeed close to already built interchanges. Very close.
It was noted in one of the Level Two studies that INDOT prefers having three miles between rural interchanges, but there can be exceptions. The key word seems to be "rural." At this time, the area around 276th and 296th streets is indeed rural. But will that be the case 10 or 15 years from now. Every year for the past several years, more than 2,000 new homes have been built in Hamilton County. The pace is showing no signs whatsoever of slowing. In 2023, the county issued 2,719 permits for new single family homes. And so far this year, for January and February, 474 permits have been issued. Not every permit issued equates to a housing start, but the percentage is around 97.5%. In 2022 and 2021, the numbers were 2,378 and 3,344, respectively.
Development is bound to push northward up the US 31 corridor. As the LEAP Innovation District is built out, pressure to build more homes in Hamilton will only increase. It could be argued that it makes sense to build an interchange at 296th Street because, in the not too distant future, the area might be transitioning to suburban.
For 296th Street, the alternatives put forward in the Level Two study are:
• reduced conflict intersection
• traditional interchange
• access modifications (close off intersection)
Note that an overpass alternative is not included. Given the alternatives, I don't see INDOT moving forward with an RCI. That leaves an interchange or closing the intersection. Yes, it is certainly possible the intersection will be recommended for closure. And, yet, 296th Street is a significant up-county arterial, so INDOT might be inclined to do the interchange.
As for CR 550 N in Tipton County, it's a difficult decision. For one, Tipton County needs an interchange in the north area of the county. It's only fair, for both the people who live up that way, and for county, which deserves a north county interchange. If not CR 550 N, where else can an interchange be placed? 300N? 450N? A solution would be to simply shift the interchange to the south, closer to 450N.
The alternatives moved forward for CR 550 N are:
• reduced conflict intersection
• access modification (right-in, right-out)
• traditional interchange w/roundabouts
It's doubtful a RCI will move forward as residents of Tipton County previously rejected the concept. RIRO? That's not an ideal situation, too, as drivers will be forced to travel to an interchange, either south or north, to go the other direction not allowed by RIRO. That leaves the interchange alternative. It's more workable if the interchange is moved to the south. Why the study didn't address that is puzzling. Good chance INDOT will move in that direction.
Another reason for a north Tipton County interchange is mobility. It's important to take into account how school buses, emergency vehicles, and farm vehicles will travel around. Essentially, without an overpass or interchange, the northern part of Tipton County will be divided in two. Is a north county interchange truly needed? I would say, yes, and the residents of the area will likely wholeheartedly agree.
And for those interested in the housing permit statistics, they can be found on the website of the Builders Association of Greater Indianapolis (BAGI) under the Market Info tab.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: monty on March 30, 2024, 08:40:36 PM
Post by: monty on March 30, 2024, 08:40:36 PM
"It's doubtful a RCI will move forward as residents of Tipton County previously rejected the concept. RIRO? That's not an ideal situation, too, as drivers will be forced to travel to an interchange, either south or north, to go the other direction not allowed by RIRO. That leaves the interchange alternative. It's more workable if the interchange is moved to the south. Why the study didn't address that is puzzling. Good chance INDOT will move in that direction."
The study does move the Sharpsville interchange option a quarter mile south by extending 525 N straight west from Sharpsville with a half mile new build extension to the new interchange. That roadway then hooks back north around the Beck's seed plant and then ends as a T intersection with 550 N. This may allow sufficient spacing to appease the split exit / merger lane with SR 931.
This would make for a perfect scenario for Sharpsville. The school, emergency services, and farmers would be well served. The "community" surrounding is primarily oriented east to west. If there is no access to US 31, the western sector will become isolated. The SR 931 split interchange does not serve Sharpsville at all. The 600 N overpass provides some limited utility. 600 N west of the overpass bridge is a narrow rural road.
Without an interchange, the fire department or school traffic, as examples, would have to drive two miles north to cross over on 600 N or three miles north to SR 26 to access the highway. The third option to travel westward in the community would be to go five miles south to Division Road.
Traditionally, 450 N has been the primary east - west route corridor to cross US 31 and then jog up to 525 N on 550 W to travel into Sharpsville. My suggestion to the Propel Study was to interchange at 450 N. I like the 525 N extension and resultant interchange but suggest the western local connector ties into 450 N to provide better connectivity.
The study does move the Sharpsville interchange option a quarter mile south by extending 525 N straight west from Sharpsville with a half mile new build extension to the new interchange. That roadway then hooks back north around the Beck's seed plant and then ends as a T intersection with 550 N. This may allow sufficient spacing to appease the split exit / merger lane with SR 931.
This would make for a perfect scenario for Sharpsville. The school, emergency services, and farmers would be well served. The "community" surrounding is primarily oriented east to west. If there is no access to US 31, the western sector will become isolated. The SR 931 split interchange does not serve Sharpsville at all. The 600 N overpass provides some limited utility. 600 N west of the overpass bridge is a narrow rural road.
Without an interchange, the fire department or school traffic, as examples, would have to drive two miles north to cross over on 600 N or three miles north to SR 26 to access the highway. The third option to travel westward in the community would be to go five miles south to Division Road.
Traditionally, 450 N has been the primary east - west route corridor to cross US 31 and then jog up to 525 N on 550 W to travel into Sharpsville. My suggestion to the Propel Study was to interchange at 450 N. I like the 525 N extension and resultant interchange but suggest the western local connector ties into 450 N to provide better connectivity.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: silverback1065 on March 31, 2024, 08:08:43 PM
Post by: silverback1065 on March 31, 2024, 08:08:43 PM
INDOT should take over Division Road from 31 to 19 sign it as 28 and add an interchange at 31 and division.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: ITB on April 03, 2024, 02:37:53 AM
Post by: ITB on April 03, 2024, 02:37:53 AM
Quote from: monty on March 30, 2024, 08:40:36 PMThe study does move the Sharpsville interchange option a quarter mile south by extending 525 N straight west from Sharpsville with a half mile new build extension to the new interchange. That roadway then hooks back north around the Beck's seed plant and then ends as a T intersection with 550 N. This may allow sufficient spacing to appease the split exit / merger lane with SR 931.
Thanks for pointing out the suggested Sharpsville interchange alternative would be located at 525 N. I had missed that. In comparison to 550 N, the 525 N location seems more logical. For one, 525 N connects directly to the town of Atlanta. Of more significance, perhaps, there would be fewer business and residential relocations, if any at all, when building near 525 N. That's not the case at either 550 N or 450 N. Since the interchange would be near to the SR 931 interchange, it's possible, maybe even likely, the design would feature collector/distributor lanes.
I did take note of the mention that the specific location of the selected alternative would be determined after the Propel study has completed. That makes sense as the Propel study's purpose is to recommend what alternative, if any, should be built. As such, the 450 N location, perhaps shifted a bit to the north, might later be given serious consideration.
As some of you already know, later this year in November, a major contract to improve the US 31 corridor in Hamilton County is scheduled to be let. Originally, the letting of this contract was to take place in May but was pushed back. Most of the planned work will take place in Hamilton, but included as well, is a project to modify the SR 28 intersection in Tipton County. Here's what the contact entails:
• new bridge construction, 226th Street over US 31
• access control, US 31, from .46 mile North of State Route 38 to .6 mile south of 236th Street
• access control, from 3.0 miles N of SR 38 to SR 931
• new bridge construction, 266th Street over US 31
• interchange modification, SR 28 and US 31
• access control, from US 31 and 106 to SR 26
• surface treatment, ultrathin bonded wearing course, from I-465 N Junction to 0.71 mi N of SR 38
Each of the bulleted points are separate projects contained in the contract (B-42397) and are taken nearly verbatim from INDOT's 18-month letting list. At this time, contract documents are not yet available online, so it's not possible to determine to any specificity what each project entails. While it's clear two overpasses will be constructed, the scope of the "access control" projects seem more nebulous. When the documents become available we'll have a better understanding of what will take place.
For those interested, here's a link to INDOT's 18-Month Construction Letting List (https://entapps.indot.in.gov/lettings/dashboard/letting/report), updated March 15, 2024. The projects included in Contract B-42397 are found on pages 117 and 118. The specific date of the letting is November 14, 2024.
Title: Re: More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend
Post by: cjw2001 on April 03, 2024, 11:23:43 AM
Post by: cjw2001 on April 03, 2024, 11:23:43 AM
I'm assuming the access control may be the promised installation of median cable barriers?