Cashless Toll Roads and the need for standardization

[skluth]

We have a new administration which seems willing to handle transportation and infrastructure issues. One issue that needs addressing is toll roads going cashless and the variety of cashless options. I live in So Cal. FasTrak uses a transponder which I believe is now good through for the entire state, but probably useless outside of CA. I know some other states/toll authorities have regionalized their cashless systems (e.g., EZ Pass) to be functional across several states.

I think this forum would be a good place to discuss the different methods and how easy-to-difficult it would be to have a nationwide system to control this before Apple and Google decide we all need to use their phone apps to pay our tolls. Google Maps has already incorporated paying for transit and parking. It wouldn't be hard to expand this to paying for tolls. I don't think our phones is the way to go, even though it would be simple enough to use phone tracking in association with car ownership to charge the drivers.

Thoughts?

[hotdogPi]

In the future:

Run a red light by 1/10 second? $5 is automatically subtracted from your account. (Blatantly running it subtracts much more.)

Going 70 in a 65 zone? You're paying 5¢ per mile VMT instead of 4¢ per mile. (90 in a 65 is 40¢ per mile.)

Just left a parking space in a crowded area where no parking seems to be available? You have received $4.50, as someone paid $5 for your space.

[andrepoiy]

407 will probably never standardize with any US system because it's a private company and they make money off of leasing transponders

[1995hoo]

Regarding the OP's final point about apps, I know Virginia has an app available for occasional toll road users, and I understand it may now work in a couple of other states (not all E-ZPass states, however), but that's all I know about it–I haven't had reason to pay attention because I have transponders for the systems I use most (E-ZPass and SunPass).

The info is at http://gotoll.com.

[Joe The Dragon]

In the future:

Run a red light by 1/10 second? $5 is automatically subtracted from your account. (Blatantly running it subtracts much more.)

if you brake the plane when it's yellow it does not count as an red.

After 1000's of long NFL like reviews the judges just reject them all  it's changed to must be red for at least 1 sec to get an ticket.

[Joe The Dragon]

407 will probably never standardize with any US system because it's a private company and they make money off of leasing transponders

if any thing canada may get one transponder for all.

or they can change an higher but less then the video change foreign transponder fees for EZ-pass and / or bill at an exchange rate that they profit on.

[Joe The Dragon]

We have a new administration which seems willing to handle transportation and infrastructure issues. One issue that needs addressing is toll roads going cashless and the variety of cashless options. I live in So Cal. FasTrak uses a transponder which I believe is now good through for the entire state, but probably useless outside of CA. I know some other states/toll authorities have regionalized their cashless systems (e.g., EZ Pass) to be functional across several states.

I think this forum would be a good place to discuss the different methods and how easy-to-difficult it would be to have a nationwide system to control this before Apple and Google decide we all need to use their phone apps to pay our tolls. Google Maps has already incorporated paying for transit and parking. It wouldn't be hard to expand this to paying for tolls. I don't think our phones is the way to go, even though it would be simple enough to use phone tracking in association with car ownership to charge the drivers.

Thoughts?

phone apps???
States will tell apple NO F* WAY YOU ARE GETTING 30% of each toll.

[jeffandnicole]

We have a new administration which seems willing to handle transportation and infrastructure issues. One issue that needs addressing is toll roads going cashless and the variety of cashless options. I live in So Cal. FasTrak uses a transponder which I believe is now good through for the entire state, but probably useless outside of CA. I know some other states/toll authorities have regionalized their cashless systems (e.g., EZ Pass) to be functional across several states.

I think this forum would be a good place to discuss the different methods and how easy-to-difficult it would be to have a nationwide system to control this before Apple and Google decide we all need to use their phone apps to pay our tolls. Google Maps has already incorporated paying for transit and parking. It wouldn't be hard to expand this to paying for tolls. I don't think our phones is the way to go, even though it would be simple enough to use phone tracking in association with car ownership to charge the drivers.

Thoughts?

It's not Apple and Google that come up with a system on their own; it's the parking and transit authorities that contract with them to develop and allow users to pay.

Thus, the same would need to happen with EZ Pass and other ETC companies and agencies. They would need for your phone to act as a transmitter/receiver to work with their toll lane devices.  Obviously, one issue right away would be, if 2 phones in the car have the system, would both be charged at a tolling location?

[andy]

I see it more likely self driving, fully autonomous or not, car technology will eventually require all cars to be fitted with some form of transponder to communicate with near by vehicles and receive road information. Such a device would serve as the toll transponder also.

[andrepoiy]

407 will probably never standardize with any US system because it's a private company and they make money off of leasing transponders

if any thing canada may get one transponder for all.

or they can change an higher but less then the video change foreign transponder fees for EZ-pass and / or bill at an exchange rate that they profit on.

I don't think Canada will get one transponder for all, as there are very few tolled roads, and they are all very far from each other. As for charging an EZPass higher, I feel like they would rather charge the camera charge since it's way easier, no need to retrofit any gantries to accept EZPass and etc.

[kalvado]

If transponders need to be standardized, bluetooth would be a strong contender. With dirt cheap mass produced hardware and existing application bundle... Then you get a choice of standalone tag it phone app.

[OCGuy81]

Washington, I believe, bills with the license plate as an option. I could see this as being pretty easy to implement elsewhere

[Joe The Dragon]

407 will probably never standardize with any US system because it's a private company and they make money off of leasing transponders

if any thing canada may get one transponder for all.

or they can change an higher but less then the video change foreign transponder fees for EZ-pass and / or bill at an exchange rate that they profit on.

I don't think Canada will get one transponder for all, as there are very few tolled roads, and they are all very far from each other. As for charging an EZPass higher, I feel like they would rather charge the camera charge since it's way easier, no need to retrofit any gantries to accept EZPass and etc.

I think they use the same transponders as ez-pass

[kalvado]

Washington, I believe, bills with the license plate as an option. I could see this as being pretty easy to implement elsewhere

And totally inconvenient for rentals, long haul drives: not to mention lots if misreads, admin charges and late mail. A stopgap solution at best

[TheHighwayMan3561]

NTTA never billed me. FDOT found me 8 months after my Key West trip. Another major issue with toll by plate is cooperation with other states on tracking down drivers.

[andrepoiy]

NTTA never billed me. FDOT found me 8 months after my Key West trip. Another major issue with toll by plate is cooperation with other states on tracking down drivers.

Get a private company to do it; 407 ETR can bill plates from I think most US states...

[vdeane]

407 will probably never standardize with any US system because it's a private company and they make money off of leasing transponders

if any thing canada may get one transponder for all.

or they can change an higher but less then the video change foreign transponder fees for EZ-pass and / or bill at an exchange rate that they profit on.

I don't think Canada will get one transponder for all, as there are very few tolled roads, and they are all very far from each other. As for charging an EZPass higher, I feel like they would rather charge the camera charge since it's way easier, no need to retrofit any gantries to accept EZPass and etc.

The Montréal area has two toll bridges.  Even they aren't interoperable with each other - each has a separate transponder that's compatible with nothing else.  At least one of them has booths to take cash/credit cards as well.  If A-25 and A-30 aren't interoperable with each other, then I don't see how Canada will ever have nation-wide interoperability, or interoperability with the US.  And I share your pessimism on ON 407; the company that collects the tolls loves price gouging.  Between the high camera charge, the per-trip surcharge everyone gets, and the transponder rental fees, there's no way to use that road without getting gouged with ridiculous fees - on top of sky high tolls!  It's not like the Thruway where a NY E-ZPass is free and gets the lowest toll rates; we didn't even engage in transponder discrimination until a few years ago.

Comparing the Thruway and 407: driving the entire length of the Thruway from NYC to PA (nearly 500 miles) using bill by mail is equivalent to driving ON 407 from the QEW to Brock Road (105 km) with a transponder during the middle of the night.

EDIT: My intent was to compare the most expensive charge on the Thruway to how much of ON 407 could be used with the cheapest method.  In doing so, I forgot about the one-way toll for the Tappan Zee.  Comparing from PA to NYC, the length of ON 407 would be the QEW to Bowmanville Avenue (138 km) during the middle of the night.  Notes that this includes neither the Thruway billing fee (not included on their toll calculator) nor the 407 transponder rental fees.

Washington, I believe, bills with the license plate as an option. I could see this as being pretty easy to implement elsewhere

Most all electronic toll facilities do.  The ones that ban users without transponders are odd exceptions (note that I'm not including things like the E-ZPass only exits on the PA Turnpike, which were transponder-only ramps on a closed ticket system that still took cash prior to the pandemic), most of them HOT lanes; the only non-HOT example I can think of is exit 125 of the Garden State Parkway.

[sprjus4]

Most all electronic toll facilities do.  The ones that ban users without transponders are odd exceptions (note that I'm not including things like the E-ZPass only exits on the PA Turnpike, which were transponder-only ramps on a closed ticket system that still took cash prior to the pandemic), most of them HOT lanes; the only non-HOT example I can think of is exit 125 of the Garden State Parkway.

Doesn't the Pennsylvania Turnpike Northeast Extension (I-476) have at least one similar to this?

And I believe various toll roads around Houston do not accept toll by plate as well.

[kalvado]

Most all electronic toll facilities do.  The ones that ban users without transponders are odd exceptions (note that I'm not including things like the E-ZPass only exits on the PA Turnpike, which were transponder-only ramps on a closed ticket system that still took cash prior to the pandemic), most of them HOT lanes; the only non-HOT example I can think of is exit 125 of the Garden State Parkway.

Doesn't the Pennsylvania Turnpike Northeast Extension (I-476) have at least one similar to this?

And I believe various toll roads around Houston do not accept toll by plate as well.

Not accepting cash and not doing toll by plate would make life too difficult for out of area drivers and bite into revenue. There may be a few exits for tagholders only, but I don't think it can be implemented in a big system

[sprjus4]

Not accepting cash and not doing toll by plate would make life too difficult for out of area drivers and bite into revenue.

Tell that to Houston. I'm not 100% sure on that policy, but to keep it safe I just avoided using the Beltway when traveling through the area, instead just stuck to I-69 and I-10 as traffic wasn't terrible through Downtown at the time.

[SEWIGuy]

Most all electronic toll facilities do.  The ones that ban users without transponders are odd exceptions (note that I'm not including things like the E-ZPass only exits on the PA Turnpike, which were transponder-only ramps on a closed ticket system that still took cash prior to the pandemic), most of them HOT lanes; the only non-HOT example I can think of is exit 125 of the Garden State Parkway.

Doesn't the Pennsylvania Turnpike Northeast Extension (I-476) have at least one similar to this?

And I believe various toll roads around Houston do not accept toll by plate as well.

Not accepting cash and not doing toll by plate would make life too difficult for out of area drivers and bite into revenue. There may be a few exits for tagholders only, but I don't think it can be implemented in a big system

Sure they may lose revenue, but at what cost does it take to capture that revenue?

The vast majority of people who use a "big system" are locals who would likely have a tag of some sort.  So you are talking about either locals who don't have tags or people from out of state.  Sending out invoices, many of which would be paid eventually, especially in-state drivers who wouldn't get their registrations renewed unless they do so, to tagless drivers is much cheaper than employing people to collect, account, and transport cash to the bank.

So yeah you would forsake some revenue, but you would likely also forsake a bunch of costs as well.  Cash handling is a pain in the ass for all sorts of reasons. Likely more profitable in the long run to do without it.

[vdeane]

Most all electronic toll facilities do.  The ones that ban users without transponders are odd exceptions (note that I'm not including things like the E-ZPass only exits on the PA Turnpike, which were transponder-only ramps on a closed ticket system that still took cash prior to the pandemic), most of them HOT lanes; the only non-HOT example I can think of is exit 125 of the Garden State Parkway.

Doesn't the Pennsylvania Turnpike Northeast Extension (I-476) have at least one similar to this?

And I believe various toll roads around Houston do not accept toll by plate as well.

The PTC has a few E-ZPass only exits across the system, but you'll note that I specifically excluded AET exits on closed ticket systems - such exits would have no way to assess a proper toll from cash users.  Prior to the pandemic, the PTC accepted cash; users without E-ZPass would get a ticket, and then when they exit would turn in the ticket and pay the amount specific for their entry/exit points.  The PTC's plans to go AET were accelerated during the pandemic.

Contrast that with the barrier/ramp system used by roads like the Garden State Parkway, where the toll is a fixed amount.

Most all electronic toll facilities do.  The ones that ban users without transponders are odd exceptions (note that I'm not including things like the E-ZPass only exits on the PA Turnpike, which were transponder-only ramps on a closed ticket system that still took cash prior to the pandemic), most of them HOT lanes; the only non-HOT example I can think of is exit 125 of the Garden State Parkway.

Doesn't the Pennsylvania Turnpike Northeast Extension (I-476) have at least one similar to this?

And I believe various toll roads around Houston do not accept toll by plate as well.

Not accepting cash and not doing toll by plate would make life too difficult for out of area drivers and bite into revenue. There may be a few exits for tagholders only, but I don't think it can be implemented in a big system

Sure they may lose revenue, but at what cost does it take to capture that revenue?

The vast majority of people who use a "big system" are locals who would likely have a tag of some sort.  So you are talking about either locals who don't have tags or people from out of state.  Sending out invoices, many of which would be paid eventually, especially in-state drivers who wouldn't get their registrations renewed unless they do so, to tagless drivers is much cheaper than employing people to collect, account, and transport cash to the bank.

So yeah you would forsake some revenue, but you would likely also forsake a bunch of costs as well.  Cash handling is a pain in the ass for all sorts of reasons. Likely more profitable in the long run to do without it.

They would still need cameras to charge violations to people using the road without a transponder; otherwise, why would anyone get one?  And at that point, why not do bill by mail?

[UCFKnights]

We have a new administration which seems willing to handle transportation and infrastructure issues. One issue that needs addressing is toll roads going cashless and the variety of cashless options. I live in So Cal. FasTrak uses a transponder which I believe is now good through for the entire state, but probably useless outside of CA. I know some other states/toll authorities have regionalized their cashless systems (e.g., EZ Pass) to be functional across several states.

I think this forum would be a good place to discuss the different methods and how easy-to-difficult it would be to have a nationwide system to control this before Apple and Google decide we all need to use their phone apps to pay our tolls. Google Maps has already incorporated paying for transit and parking. It wouldn't be hard to expand this to paying for tolls. I don't think our phones is the way to go, even though it would be simple enough to use phone tracking in association with car ownership to charge the drivers.

Thoughts?

First off, the previous administration did take transportation and infrastructure issues pretty seriously.

Second off, using the phone itself for trying to track when you're on toll roads is very problemsome. Bluetooth and the other antennas in the phone are not designed to be read at high speed, the signals are too easy to spoof, and there could be multiple people in a car, so its too easy to turn off. Other technologies like RFID that is used by Sunpass only costs pennies per sticker to manufacture, has no batteries to worry about, etc.

There also has been much progress in the past 4 years integrating systems. You can now buy a pass like the Uni which works in 19 of the 29 states with toll roads, including pretty much the entire east coast, with no monthly fees or anything. Much of the other states offer toll by plate as well. I imagine they will continue to integrate systems over the next couple years

[SEWIGuy]

They would still need cameras to charge violations to people using the road without a transponder; otherwise, why would anyone get one?  And at that point, why not do bill by mail?

I was making the assumption that those cameras were in place.  And billing by mail still comes with an expense. 

One of the great things from the state's point of view about the tags is that the driver pays up-front and it "auto-refreshes" when it gets below a certain figure.  I have had about $15 in my Ipass account for six months now.  It's like an interest free loan to the Illinois Tollway.

Bill by mail means you have to collect after the fee is charged, and you aren't going to collect 100%.  From the state's POV, the tag system is a no brainer.

[MCRoads]

NTTA never billed me. FDOT found me 8 months after my Key West trip. Another major issue with toll by plate is cooperation with other states on tracking down drivers.

Get a private company to do it; 407 ETR can bill plates from I think most US states...

Not when we went. We asked the nice customs person if the 407 accepted EZPass, and they blatantly said "No need to worry, they can't charge US plates because it's hard to get info from the states."  Asking my parents about 2 months later (About the time that E470 found us in OK), they confirmed that we never got billed.

NTTA never billed me. FDOT found me 8 months after my Key West trip. Another major issue with toll by plate is cooperation with other states on tracking down drivers.

Wow, FDOT is persistent! When I lived in Florida, ORT was a brand-spanking new system (to us, at least). We visited family in Colorado after the E470 was made cashless, and my most distinct memory from that trip was my parents freaking out because they had the cash in hand, but the road forced you into the ExpressToll lanes. They thought they were going to get dinged with a toll violation fine. My grandma had to tell them how it works, lol.