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E-ZPass on the Mackinac Bridge?

Started by Joe The Dragon, October 19, 2021, 10:09:36 PM

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Flint1979

Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 22, 2021, 07:34:10 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 22, 2021, 06:58:05 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 21, 2021, 09:14:03 PM
Quote from: renegade on October 21, 2021, 12:19:25 PM
E-Z Pass is not needed in Michigan.  No toll roads here, only four bridges, three of which leave the country.  You've already been told that.  We shouldn't have to pay for an infrastructure that a small portion of travelers (mostly out-of-staters) will use.  No cash?  Feel free to drive around the lake.

:wave:
Then Kentucky doesn't need it either, as they only have two toll bridges, and no toll roads (since the parkways became free). Yet they implemented it, because it's convenient for drivers, much more than trying to find loose change on your car floor.
E-Z Pass serves no convenience for a Michigan driver for real.


Unless that Michigan driver regularly uses toll roads outside the state and gets an EZ Pass for that purpose.  Having an electronic system that isn't EZ Pass compatible is dumb.  Hell, I live in Green Bay and have an IPass (fully EZ Pass compatible) even though I only get to Illinois four or five times a year.
My point though is that why get something that we wouldn't really use within the state other than going between the peninsulas which other than people that generally live in the Straits area there isn't too much cross peninsula travel done. The Mackinac Bridge only sees about 11,000 vehicles daily so it's not that big of a deal really. And another thing is shunpiking there wouldn't be a need to have a transponder of any kind if you don't use the toll roads.


Flint1979

Quote from: cabiness42 on October 22, 2021, 07:35:29 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 22, 2021, 06:58:05 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 21, 2021, 09:14:03 PM
Quote from: renegade on October 21, 2021, 12:19:25 PM
E-Z Pass is not needed in Michigan.  No toll roads here, only four bridges, three of which leave the country.  You've already been told that.  We shouldn't have to pay for an infrastructure that a small portion of travelers (mostly out-of-staters) will use.  No cash?  Feel free to drive around the lake.

:wave:
Then Kentucky doesn't need it either, as they only have two toll bridges, and no toll roads (since the parkways became free). Yet they implemented it, because it's convenient for drivers, much more than trying to find loose change on your car floor.
E-Z Pass serves no convenience for a Michigan driver for real.

I see Michigan plates on the Indiana Toll Road and Chicagoland tollways all the time.
Those are areas that aren't that far from the Michigan border though is the only thing I could think of for that. You're probably more likely to see a Michigan plate on the Indiana Toll Road than you are the Pennsylvania Turnpike even though seeing a Michigan plate on the PA Turnpike wouldn't be an uncommon thing.

Rothman

If you don't use toll roads at all as a MI driver, then your opinion doesn't really matter, since you wouldn't be using the toll bridges and tunnel anyway.

For those that use the Mac and others, I am sure broader compatibility for their ETC systems would be welcome and easy to implement.  Just yelling, "But I won't use it because I don't drive on them in any case!" doesn't show harm in its implementation, while the broader compatibility is certainly a benefit.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Terry Shea

Doesn't E-Z Pass require extra lanes?  And if it doesn't and all traffic is funneled through the same set of toll booths, what's the point?

renegade

#29
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 22, 2021, 12:50:02 PM
Doesn't E-Z Pass require extra lanes?  And if it doesn't and all traffic is funneled through the same set of toll booths, what's the point?
No place, really, to add those extra lanes, either.

It's just easier to have the four bucks ready, and stop to pay the fare.
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 12:45:51 PM
If you don't use toll roads at all as a MI driver, then your opinion doesn't really matter, since you wouldn't be using the toll bridges and tunnel anyway.

For those that use the Mac and others, I am sure broader compatibility for their ETC systems would be welcome and easy to implement.  Just yelling, "But I won't use it because I don't drive on them in any case!" doesn't show harm in its implementation, while the broader compatibility is certainly a benefit.
Now I am sure that you don't know what you are talking about.  I cross the Mac twenty to thirty times a year, and still don't see the need for EZ-Pass.

Also, there's no such thing as a "toll"  anything here in Michigan.  There are a few "fare"  bridges.  The signs even say so.

Here is the closest thing you will get to an EZ-Pass or whatever in this state.  A one-minute stop will not get you to your destination that much sooner.  Things are way different up here ... this is not, after all, "Chica-GO Land"  ... we're not in a hurry, anyway.

https://www.mackinacbridge.org/macpass/macpass/
Don’t ask me how I know.  Just understand that I do.

rhen_var

Why would it be a bad thing to have it as an option, though?  It would be convenient for those who happen to already have an EZ-Pass, and those that don't have one can just stop and pay with cash like they always have.

vdeane

Quote from: renegade on October 22, 2021, 07:20:57 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 22, 2021, 12:50:02 PM
Doesn't E-Z Pass require extra lanes?  And if it doesn't and all traffic is funneled through the same set of toll booths, what's the point?
No place, really, to add those extra lanes, either.

It's just easier to have the four bucks ready, and stop to pay the fare.
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 12:45:51 PM
If you don't use toll roads at all as a MI driver, then your opinion doesn't really matter, since you wouldn't be using the toll bridges and tunnel anyway.

For those that use the Mac and others, I am sure broader compatibility for their ETC systems would be welcome and easy to implement.  Just yelling, "But I won't use it because I don't drive on them in any case!" doesn't show harm in its implementation, while the broader compatibility is certainly a benefit.
Now I am sure that you don't know what you are talking about.  I cross the Mac twenty to thirty times a year, and still don't see the need for EZ-Pass.

Also, there's no such thing as a "toll"  anything here in Michigan.  There are a few "fare"  bridges.  The signs even say so.

Here is the closest thing you will get to an EZ-Pass or whatever in this state.  A one-minute stop will not get you to your destination that much sooner.  Things are way different up here ... this is not, after all, "Chica-GO Land"  ... we're not in a hurry, anyway.

https://www.mackinacbridge.org/macpass/macpass/
There's no need to add extra lanes.  Just use the existing MacPass lanes.  Really, MacPass should have been brought into E-ZPass when they went from a card to a transponder.  We already have a nation-wide interoperability mandate, albeit a toothless one.  IMO, that toothlessness of that mandate was a mistake.  In fact, I would have gone so far as to make it illegal to create any type of transponder in the country that didn't already exist.  States that didn't have a system already should have been forced to join an existing system, not make the interoperability problem worse.  There's no reason for it to remain separate, other than price gouging (and really, transponders should be mandated to be free, like NY MTA and Thruway E-ZPass tags are; no non-refundable cost for getting the tag, not account setup fee, no annual/monthly fees, etc.; just the account balance and maybe a refundable tag deposit if one only replenishes manually).

Even ignoring the existing MacPass lanes, I can think of at least one place where E-ZPass is accepted but doesn't have dedicated lanes.  Even then, I would say it's more convenient than dealing with cash, especially when you're the only person in the car and don't want to hold up the line digging out your wallet and having them make change (I almost never use cash for anything, though I do carry some on me just in case).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Rothman

Quote from: rhen_var on October 22, 2021, 11:33:45 PM
Why would it be a bad thing to have it as an option, though?  It would be convenient for those who happen to already have an EZ-Pass, and those that don't have one can just stop and pay with cash like they always have.
This was my point.  No one has really pointed out the harm caused by accepting E-ZPass.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

renegade

#33
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 12:03:56 AM
Quote from: rhen_var on October 22, 2021, 11:33:45 PM
Why would it be a bad thing to have it as an option, though?  It would be convenient for those who happen to already have an EZ-Pass, and those that don't have one can just stop and pay with cash like they always have.
This was my point.  No one has really pointed out the harm caused by accepting E-ZPass.
Please explain, in as much detail as possible, exactly why we need this added burden on our infrastructure.  The toll is four bucks right now as it stands.  In order to install your beloved EZ-pass system, would cause the cash toll to increase more than it already has.  I would rather pay $4 to cross the bridge, as opposed to, say, $12.

Bonus points, however, for your not giving in on this.  Sure wish you lived here.  Clearly, you do not.

:pan:
Don’t ask me how I know.  Just understand that I do.

Rothman



Quote from: renegade on October 23, 2021, 12:27:08 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 12:03:56 AM
Quote from: rhen_var on October 22, 2021, 11:33:45 PM
Why would it be a bad thing to have it as an option, though?  It would be convenient for those who happen to already have an EZ-Pass, and those that don't have one can just stop and pay with cash like they always have.
This was my point.  No one has really pointed out the harm caused by accepting E-ZPass.
Please explain, in as much detail as possible, exactly why we need this added burden on our infrastructure.  The toll is four bucks right now as it stands.  In order to install your beloved EZ-pass system, would cause the cash toll to increase more than it already has.  I would rather pay $4 to cross the bridge, as opposed to, say, $12.

Bonus points, however, for your not giving in on this.  Sure wish you lived here.  Clearly, you do not.

:pan:

It would ease toll paying from a broader portion of the population, as pointed out by others in the thread.

No, the tolls wouldn't triple.  That hasn't anywhere else as a result of the implementation of E-Z Pass.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

renegade

#35
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 03:10:47 PM


Quote from: renegade on October 23, 2021, 12:27:08 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 12:03:56 AM
Quote from: rhen_var on October 22, 2021, 11:33:45 PM
Why would it be a bad thing to have it as an option, though?  It would be convenient for those who happen to already have an EZ-Pass, and those that don't have one can just stop and pay with cash like they always have.
This was my point.  No one has really pointed out the harm caused by accepting E-ZPass.
Please explain, in as much detail as possible, exactly why we need this added burden on our infrastructure.  The toll is four bucks right now as it stands.  In order to install your beloved EZ-pass system, would cause the cash toll to increase more than it already has.  I would rather pay $4 to cross the bridge, as opposed to, say, $12.

Bonus points, however, for your not giving in on this.  Sure wish you lived here.  Clearly, you do not.

:pan:

It would ease toll paying from a broader portion of the population, as pointed out by others in the thread.

No, the tolls wouldn't triple.  That hasn't anywhere else as a result of the implementation of E-Z Pass.
As others have also pointed out in this thread, we don't have any toll highways in this state, so it would be unnecessary.  I really don't believe the "broader portion of the population"  are interested in EZ-Pass here in Michigan.  If you really need proof of what people think, why don't you go ahead and create a poll asking if people in Michigan want this.  My vote will definitely be "no."
Don’t ask me how I know.  Just understand that I do.

skluth

And I thought the threads in Fictional Highways were irrational. Nobody is making anyone use a transponder if they don't want to use one, though I'm sure it won't be long before someone claims it's a liberal or conservative plot. If Michigan doesn't want to have ETC, that's up to them. But I will point out Michigan residents travel all over the country including the idiot who was driving their Jeep down El Cielo in Palm Springs going about 32-33 in a 45 mph zone in front of me this morning. So the irrational part makes complete sense to me.

vdeane

#37
Quote from: renegade on October 23, 2021, 12:27:08 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 12:03:56 AM
Quote from: rhen_var on October 22, 2021, 11:33:45 PM
Why would it be a bad thing to have it as an option, though?  It would be convenient for those who happen to already have an EZ-Pass, and those that don't have one can just stop and pay with cash like they always have.
This was my point.  No one has really pointed out the harm caused by accepting E-ZPass.
Please explain, in as much detail as possible, exactly why we need this added burden on our infrastructure.  The toll is four bucks right now as it stands.  In order to install your beloved EZ-pass system, would cause the cash toll to increase more than it already has.  I would rather pay $4 to cross the bridge, as opposed to, say, $12.

Bonus points, however, for your not giving in on this.  Sure wish you lived here.  Clearly, you do not.

:pan:
I have never heard of anywhere increasing tolls to accept E-ZPass.  If the people who own the bridge were even remotely smart, then they would have installed multi-protocol readers when they made MacPass a sticker transponder in order to deal with the inevitable interoperability mandate.  From there it's just a matter of bureaucracy.  If they were not smart, well, that's on them, but in any case, places have installed E-ZPass readers without raising tolls.  In fact, E-ZPass usually gets a discount, because the agency saves money by not handling cash or employing toll collectors for those users.

Your argument against E-ZPass seems to boil down to "we've always done it this way, why should we change".  I don't understand why you're so set in your ways that you wouldn't want an E-ZPass despite crossing the bridge several times a year, but if it's because you imagine it would cost as much as MacPass does, then I can assure you, even the greediest agency implementing E-ZPass doesn't charge anywhere close to that much.  That or you're imaging that they would have to install highway-speed ORT lanes, but I can assure you, that isn't the case either.  Many toll booths that accept E-ZPass do not have that.

If your location tag is a clue to where you actually are, it would seem that you're as far away from any toll facility as you can possibly be, so maybe you think people from Michigan don't want transponders, but I imagine someone from, say, Detroit probably feels differently.

When MacPass became a sticker transponder would have been the time to implement E-ZPass, just like the Thousand Islands Bridge Authority did when they modernized their commuter program with their toll booth upgrade.  They were forward-thinking (though paying a toll there still requires interacting with the booth attendant, even for E-ZPass, for whatever reason).  The Mackinac Bridge was not.

Honestly, this discussion reminds me of the discussion in the "Minor Things that Bother You" thread about people/organizations that refuse to upgrade from obsolete tech even when they'd benefit from the upgrade.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

triplemultiplex

Quote from: renegade on October 22, 2021, 07:20:57 PM

Also, there's no such thing as a "toll"  anything here in Michigan.  There are a few "fare"  bridges.  The signs even say so.

:-D
That's some delicious semantics on the part of Michigan.
This isn't a tax, it's a temporary refund adjustment. :bigass:
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

renegade

Quote from: triplemultiplex on October 25, 2021, 01:37:21 PM
Quote from: renegade on October 22, 2021, 07:20:57 PM

Also, there's no such thing as a "toll"  anything here in Michigan.  There are a few "fare"  bridges.  The signs even say so.

:-D
That's some delicious semantics on the part of Michigan.
This isn't a tax, it's a temporary refund adjustment. :bigass:
You get it!
Don’t ask me how I know.  Just understand that I do.

7/8

Quote from: Flint1979 on October 22, 2021, 06:56:52 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 21, 2021, 07:46:04 PM
Quote from: renegade on October 21, 2021, 07:27:41 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 21, 2021, 01:30:52 PM
Quote from: renegade on October 21, 2021, 12:19:25 PM
E-Z Pass is not needed in Michigan.  No toll roads here, only four bridges, three of which leave the country.  You've already been told that.  We shouldn't have to pay for an infrastructure that a small portion of travelers (mostly out-of-staters) will use.  No cash?  Feel free to drive around the lake.

:wave:

And you've already been told that of five tolled facilities in the state (you forgot the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel), four of them already implement their own proprietary electronic tolling systems, used by plenty of in-staters.  If they're going to implement/maintain/upgrade systems anyway, why not use a common system predominate in this part of the country?
Forgot about the Tunnel.  Still don't need E-ZPass in Michigan.
I don't understand the adamant opposition.  Implementing E-ZPass certainly wouldn't hurt.
What are we going to use it for? The average person in Michigan doesn't use a toll road on a daily basis so having E-Z Pass in your car really doesn't make much sense. The last time I used a toll road was crossing the Mackinac Bridge about 10 weeks ago and I probably drive more than the average driver in Michigan.

But is there a downside to having it in your car? Not sure about other states, but the NY EZ Pass is a great deal. Only $25 and all of that money goes directly into your account (in that sense, it's arguably "free" since it goes toward your toll charges). There's also no monthly payments, and you can have multiple licence plates on one transponder. Even though I've only got to use mine once since COVID closed the border, I don't regret buying it, since there's no monthly fees. It's honestly so much better than the scummy 407 ETR :pan:.

If anything, wouldn't EZ Pass save the state (or whoever operates the toll bridges) money over time? Less people paying cash means less toll booth operators.

Not to mention, not everyone carries cash on them nowadays. It's still a good idea for emergencies, but considering everything I pay for excepts credit or debit card, I sometimes don't have any cash on me.

renegade

#41
Quote from: 7/8 on November 05, 2021, 10:58:06 AM
Only $25
For some, "only $25" is the choice between food and shelter.  Surprised this argument has been going on as long as it has.

You're also not going to be able to drive through the tollbooth at 75 mph, so why bother?  Stop for ten seconds, hand over four bucks, then drive on and enjoy the scenery.  EZPass is only good for people in a hurry.
Don’t ask me how I know.  Just understand that I do.

Rothman

Quote from: renegade on November 05, 2021, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on November 05, 2021, 10:58:06 AM
Only $25
For some, "only $25" is the choice between food and shelter.  Surprised this argument has been going on as long as it has.

You're also not going to be able to drive through the tollbooth at 75 mph, so why bother?  Stop for ten seconds, hand over four bucks, then drive on and enjoy the scenery.  EZPass is only good for people in a hurry.
So...poor people who were going to pay the toll anyway are worse off for having to pay the toll that they were going to pay.

Your obsession about this topic has exceeded your logic.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

7/8

Quote from: renegade on November 05, 2021, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on November 05, 2021, 10:58:06 AM
Only $25
For some, "only $25" is the choice between food and shelter.

True, but if EZ Pass was added, you could still choose the cash lane and have the same experience as before. Also, someone upthread mentioned the MacPass being $80? That's quite a bit more.

I'm also coming from the perspective of an Ontario resident where the transponder costs $50 plus $24.50 a year, and the tolls are still $0.20-$0.30/km! So EZ Pass seems like a steal in comparison!

Quote from: renegade on November 05, 2021, 01:48:24 PM
You're also not going to be able to drive through the tollbooth at 75 mph, so why bother?

They could install the high speed EZ Pass lanes, but you're right that they'd probably go the cheap route and have a slower speed setup. Still, not having to wait in a line with people pulling cash out of their pockets is bound to be faster. But also, isn't it nice not to worry about having cash on you?

Quote from: renegade on November 05, 2021, 01:48:24 PM
EZPass is only good for people in a hurry.

I mean most people driving just want to get where they're going quickly, especially on an interstate. Roadgeeks are a minority in enjoying the drive :D.

Quote from: renegade on November 05, 2021, 01:48:24 PM
Surprised this argument has been going on as long as it has.

Yeah, and maybe I should've left the conversation dead, but I'm just surprised to hear people so against the idea.

Flint1979

Quote from: renegade on November 05, 2021, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on November 05, 2021, 10:58:06 AM
Only $25
For some, "only $25" is the choice between food and shelter.  Surprised this argument has been going on as long as it has.

You're also not going to be able to drive through the tollbooth at 75 mph, so why bother?  Stop for ten seconds, hand over four bucks, then drive on and enjoy the scenery.  EZPass is only good for people in a hurry.
I don't see the hurry up there either. And the most I've ever really driven over the bridge is about 55, anything over that seems nerve wracking.

renegade

If yo have ever been across the Mackinac Bridge, you might understand that the speed limit is 45 on it, there is no place to construct "high-speed"  lanes, and there's still no need fo EZPass anywhere else in the entire state where it would be useful.  Dead argument.  Full stop.

The moderators should consider breaking the whole EZPass discussion off into its own thread, then lock it.   :bigass:
Don’t ask me how I know.  Just understand that I do.

skluth

Quote from: renegade on November 05, 2021, 05:50:58 PM
The moderators should consider breaking the whole EZPass discussion off into its own thread, then lock it.   :bigass:

I created this thread some time ago to discuss ETC and the problems between systems. It's not even locked.  ;-)

Rothman

Quote from: renegade on November 05, 2021, 05:50:58 PM
If yo have ever been across the Mackinac Bridge, you might understand that the speed limit is 45 on it, there is no place to construct "high-speed"  lanes, and there's still no need fo EZPass anywhere else in the entire state where it would be useful.  Dead argument.  Full stop.

The moderators should consider breaking the whole EZPass discussion off into its own thread, then lock it.   :bigass:
So...it's bad to keep traffic flowing.  Even with low traffic, at-speed toll collection sounds like an improvement rather than a hazard.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: renegade on November 05, 2021, 05:50:58 PM
If yo have ever been across the Mackinac Bridge, you might understand that the speed limit is 45 on it, there is no place to construct "high-speed"  lanes, and there's still no need fo EZPass anywhere else in the entire state where it would be useful.  Dead argument.  Full stop.

The moderators should consider breaking the whole EZPass discussion off into its own thread, then lock it.   :bigass:


This is simply false.  If Michigan residents currently use EZPass, and I am sure a significant number do, it of course is a benefit.  It's also a benefit to those travelling to the state from other places where EZ Pass is used.

Dying on this hill is very strange.

renegade

#49
Quote from: Rothman on November 05, 2021, 07:18:22 PM
Quote from: renegade on November 05, 2021, 05:50:58 PM
If yo have ever been across the Mackinac Bridge, you might understand that the speed limit is 45 on it, there is no place to construct "high-speed"  lanes, and there's still no need fo EZPass anywhere else in the entire state where it would be useful.  Dead argument.  Full stop.

The moderators should consider breaking the whole EZPass discussion off into its own thread, then lock it.   :bigass:
So...it's bad to keep traffic flowing.  Even with low traffic, at-speed toll collection sounds like an improvement rather than a hazard.
Dude.  Let it go.  I live here.  You don't.  No one here is interested, otherwise it would already be in place.  Your DOT banner is of no meaning to me.  If you knew anything at all about what you are talking about, you would provide concrete evidence as to exactly why we need EZPass here, other than to say that it would be beneficial to out-of-$taters.  Michigan taxpayers should not have to foot the bill for that.
Don’t ask me how I know.  Just understand that I do.



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