EV pickup range while towing

[JayhawkCO]

I like using a sample of 1 to hint at everyone's experience for the rest of eternity.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

[ethanhopkin14]

Again, none of the points I am talking about are new, but I really feel like the powers that be that are pushing the electric car wagon either didn't think about all these things, or simply just don't give a crap about my life or others like me.

I think they've thought about these things and your demographic as well, but simply put, the technology isn't there yet.

And I am okay with it not being there yet.   What does bother me is I feel like everyone is in such a hurry to switch to these cars that are a serious down grade at the moment.  When the technology catches up, I am all for it, but I honestly don't see it happening in my lifetime.  I look at all the other electrical gadgets out there and see the endless issues they have.  If my iPhone stays in the car for more that 15 minutes in the summer its useless for 15 minutes due to overheating, so I have little faith even when the technology catches up that it will be bug free. 

[JayhawkCO]

Again, none of the points I am talking about are new, but I really feel like the powers that be that are pushing the electric car wagon either didn't think about all these things, or simply just don't give a crap about my life or others like me.

I think they've thought about these things and your demographic as well, but simply put, the technology isn't there yet.

And I am okay with it not being there yet.   What does bother me is I feel like everyone is in such a hurry to switch to these cars that are a serious down grade at the moment.  When the technology catches up, I am all for it, but I honestly don't see it happening in my lifetime.  I look at all the other electrical gadgets out there and see the endless issues they have.  If my iPhone stays in the car for more that 15 minutes in the summer its useless for 15 minutes due to overheating, so I have little faith even when the technology catches up that it will be bug free.

I wouldn't be surprised if the technology and infrastructure is fully capable within 10 years. Now, I don't know the cost side of things, as you already alluded to the price of the batteries.

[ethanhopkin14]

Again, none of the points I am talking about are new, but I really feel like the powers that be that are pushing the electric car wagon either didn't think about all these things, or simply just don't give a crap about my life or others like me.

I think they've thought about these things and your demographic as well, but simply put, the technology isn't there yet.

And I am okay with it not being there yet.   What does bother me is I feel like everyone is in such a hurry to switch to these cars that are a serious down grade at the moment.  When the technology catches up, I am all for it, but I honestly don't see it happening in my lifetime.  I look at all the other electrical gadgets out there and see the endless issues they have.  If my iPhone stays in the car for more that 15 minutes in the summer its useless for 15 minutes due to overheating, so I have little faith even when the technology catches up that it will be bug free.

I wouldn't be surprised if the technology and infrastructure is fully capable within 10 years. Now, I don't know the cost side of things, as you already alluded to the price of the batteries.

You might be right.  The technology might be ready in 10 years.  Like many other things though, the practicality (affordability for the masses) of it may take another 20 years beyond that. 

My favorite example is Laser Disc.  It was invented in 1978, but no one really had one until they could make them less expensive and that took until the early 90s for some people to have them and the late 90s until the average moron like me could afford one.  I think it's funny to use that reference because Laser Disc never really caught on, but it's a good example of product is ready to go vs. product can be purchased by any knucklehead and not just some guy with a yacht. 

[tradephoric]

Here's another video that was just posted today with both a Ford F-150 Lightning & Rivian R1T Towing Over The Entire Rocky Mountain Range.  They ran into a lot of charging issues and it seemed very difficult for them to navigate their truck/trailer into the charger so they weren't blocking anybody from getting around in the parking lot.  That honestly appeared to be the most stressful part of the trip for the guys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEtStnltwOo

[Scott5114]

My biggest issue is still.. We just aren't near ready to make this a viable thing.  The technology and infrastructure just isn't there to make this a seamless transition.

Unfortunately, America is not a country where "let's plan things out so that we have a seamless transition" is a realistic option. The American Way is to kick the can down the road for decades until we're six months out from the country crashing and burning, or actually let it crash and burn, and then do panic fixes once ignoring the problem is impossible. This is how we handle every other sort of infrastructure (roads, bridges, transit, water, Internet) and ERCOT shows that electricity is not any different.

If we need upgrades to electrical infrastructure to support electric cars, the only way to make it happen in America is for everyone to switch to electric cars first and thoroughly crash the grid. That's the only way to actually force the powers that be to do anything to correct the problem.

[vdeane]

Now, I'm not saying that EVs can cover everything we do (in fact, I think roadgeeking as we know it will be one of the last use cases to be practical in EVs), but a lot of this is driving with an ICE mindset vs. driving with an EV mindset.  Keep in mind that most of the time charging is the last 20%, not the first 80%.  That's one reason why EV owners don't charge to 100% full often (the other being that it's bad for the battery and accelerates degradation).  Charging to 100% is mainly reserved for the start of a roadtrip (in which case you get their overnight while home charging) or if there's a really long gap between chargers (an infrastructure issue, not a technology one, and one that will improve in most places as time goes on).

Charging an EV does take more planning.  "Just drive and pop into the next station when nearly out of range" isn't a good strategy, especially given how much longer it takes to charge.  Timing charge stops with food and bathroom breaks is the name of the game.  Now, especially with current infrastructure, this can lead to tailoring the trip around the needs of the car rather than the desires of the driving (for example, taking a different route because of better charger availability, eating at different places for lunch, etc.).  Such is why I think roadgeeking will be one of the last use cases to become practical in EVs.  People who are happy to let GPS navigate for them will have an easier time, as they just need to switch to either in-car navigation or EV route planning apps.  Those of us who navigate ourselves with the goal of seeing specific roads will have more issues.

[triplemultiplex]

Videos like this are stupid.  The unstated premise here is "EV's are garbage if they can't do every little niche thing that ICE vehicles have come to do over the last 100 years."

It's not realistic to expect electric automobiles to do things like towing RV's and other giant shit.  That's not their wheelhouse, so the only reason to make a big show of doing it is to shit on EV's for the vroom-vroom crowd.  This is like using a cordless drill to chop down a goddamn tree.  It proves nothing but how ineffective it is to use the wrong tool for wrong job and treat it like it's a big reveal.  Duh!

Towing will be the future niche for hydrogen fuel cells.  And by towing, I mean giant testicle trucks and actual semis.  Compressed hydrogen will allow for the range needed for these low distance-per-unit-fuel-energy use cases.  And yes, yes, it's only energy storage, not an energy source and most of that hydrogen comes from hydrocarbons, but those are manageable issues.  50 years from now, the solar panels on your house will use the energy you don't immediately need to hydrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen to store that energy for later use; either in the home or in a vehicle.  Or to be sold to the hydrogen man, who goes around paying folks for their excess H-2.

[formulanone]

It's not realistic to expect electric automobiles to do things like towing RV's and other giant shit.  That's not their wheelhouse, so the only reason to make a big show of doing it is to shit on EV's for the vroom-vroom crowd.

The auto/truck manufacturers are the ones suggesting it in the first place, though at a more modest number than the ICE equivalents.

Silverado EV will offer up to 14 available camera views* and up to 10,000 lbs.* of max towing — with up to 20,000 lbs. available on a future WT model* — you'll be able to hitch up and hit the road with ease.

{good luck finding it in a continuously-scrolling page with animations}

10,000 lbs. Targeted available maximum towing capacity" " 

Yeah, it's done for the gearheads but somebody has to try to keep the manufacturers honest by using high school math. To be fair, I didn't watch the video because the amount of cut-to-the-chase for most YouTube videos is unsurprisingly low.

So for someone who might travel only 20-30 miles away to a campsite with a light trailer and not too much added interior weight, then you're in luck. Hopefully, you don't have to go into town for additional supplies. Perhaps some sort of municipal use, university grounds, or business which will travel rather short distances and also have enough downtime to recharge it constantly might also see some benefit. But the price tag is too dear for that kind of thing for anything other than vanity. Fleets will go for stripped-down models which cost a third of an EV pickup. The only other benefit is the "frunk" which is actually kind of useful and seriously cuts down on theft.

I'm not saying "we'll never be there", because the advances in automobiles over 140 years of development didn't happen overnight. If anything, the hybrid/EV phenomenon has only been seriously been going on for 25-30 years, so it will get there eventually. But right now, the technology doesn't measure up for the use of pickup trucks as towing vehicles. It's fine for the daily commute, but probably a bit too much of a vehicle for that anyhow. At a lofty six-figures, plus you get be the beta-tester, it's not even in the conversation for most folks. Like the pace of most new technologies, EVs will need a two-generation jump to catch up: (1) the weight of the batteries (2) storage capacity of the individual batteries hasn't increased much (3) battery life-span has marginally increased (4) charging infrastructure is improving somewhat, at least in less-rural areas.

Also, this pains the traditionalists a bunch...not all EVs are slow! And while there's a lot of people who will probably never want an EV, most of the industry (as well as pledges to reduce greenhouse gasses) has accepted that the automotive landscape will change in the next 10-25 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JYp9eGC3Cc&t=16s

[ethanhopkin14]

Videos like this are stupid.  The unstated premise here is "EV's are garbage if they can't do every little niche thing that ICE vehicles have come to do over the last 100 years."

I agree, you are correct.  Electric vehicles cannot do everything their gas powered equivalents have done and can do.  That's not saying they are not a viable alternative to some cars.  That's all true, but when you have car manufactures and government entities yelling at you to switch to an electric car immediately while the electric car is still so far from where it needs to be to outlaw gas/diesel powered cars, that's when I start having a problem.   I have a problem when urbanists finger wag me and tell me I need to have an electric car while they so underperform for what I need it for, cost way more and still rely on getting their energy from fossil fuels.  All they can see is their 5 mile commute is perfect for their electric car, then they yell at me for not converting under the guise that I don't have an open mind, or I am not thinking about the environment or that I am too narrow minded.  It's the pot calling the kettle black.   Let me throw my narrow minded views onto you, then if you don't immediately agree with me, I will call you narrow minded.   

[tradephoric]

It's not realistic to expect electric automobiles to do things like towing RV's and other giant shit.  That's not their wheelhouse, so the only reason to make a big show of doing it is to shit on EV's for the vroom-vroom crowd.  This is like using a cordless drill to chop down a goddamn tree.  It proves nothing but how ineffective it is to use the wrong tool for wrong job and treat it like it's a big reveal.  Duh!

It's hard to use the right tool for the job when the governments of the world are staring to enact ICE bans.  Just let me keep towing my trailer with my diesel truck and we're all good.

[skluth]

Videos like this are stupid.  The unstated premise here is "EV's are garbage if they can't do every little niche thing that ICE vehicles have come to do over the last 100 years."

I agree, you are correct.  Electric vehicles cannot do everything their gas powered equivalents have done and can do.  That's not saying they are not a viable alternative to some cars.  That's all true, but when you have car manufactures and government entities yelling at you to switch to an electric car immediately while the electric car is still so far from where it needs to be to outlaw gas/diesel powered cars, that's when I start having a problem.   I have a problem when urbanists finger wag me and tell me I need to have an electric car while they so underperform for what I need it for, cost way more and still rely on getting their energy from fossil fuels.  All they can see is their 5 mile commute is perfect for their electric car, then they yell at me for not converting under the guise that I don't have an open mind, or I am not thinking about the environment or that I am too narrow minded.  It's the pot calling the kettle black.   Let me throw my narrow minded views onto you, then if you don't immediately agree with me, I will call you narrow minded.

Both of you are right. Electric cars are really useful for many people and it's unfair to test them in guaranteed to fail environments. They're really good for commuters who can recharge once or twice per day (home and destination). They're not ready yet for towing, big trucks, those who frequently drive long distances, etc and may not ever be ready for most drivers in the foreseeable future. Hydrogen fuel cells are a good candidate for the future for those purposes. But like it or not, political will may force ICEs off the road by mid-century.

It's not the urbanists who will decide this issue; it's swing groups like soccer moms. If the automakers build electric vehicles that the soccer moms and factory workers demand, that's probably enough votes to stop new ICE manufacturing. They're already making electric SUVs but the range is about 200 miles. Get that up to 350-400 miles (good enough for most families as drivers could recharge during a meal on vacations) and families will snap them up fast, especially if gasoline prices continue to rise.

[jamess]

Airplanes can't cross the Atlantic Ocean but blimps can! Airplanes are a dead technology. -1936

[Duke87]

It's not realistic to expect electric automobiles to do things like towing RV's and other giant shit.  That's not their wheelhouse, so the only reason to make a big show of doing it is to shit on EV's for the vroom-vroom crowd.  This is like using a cordless drill to chop down a goddamn tree.  It proves nothing but how ineffective it is to use the wrong tool for wrong job and treat it like it's a big reveal.  Duh!

It's hard to use the right tool for the job when the governments of the world are staring to enact ICE bans.  Just let me keep towing my trailer with my diesel truck and we're all good.

Right, and that's why this sort of thing matters. It's not a problem that there are specific use cases EVs can't properly fill so long as alternatives are available. But since some politicians want to eliminate those alternatives, we need to worry about whether they'll be nice enough to walk back their rules or carve out exceptions in order to avoid leaving people who'd rely on them high and dry.

[Scott5114]

There's also the small issue of "preventing entire states from becoming uninhabitable" becoming a higher policy priority for many jurisdictions than "making sure people can tow trailers when they go camping". Ideally, we can have both, and hopefully we will. But some jurisdictions may be convinced that, if they don't act in a regulatory capacity to force matters, the free market will be ready to provide solutions approximately 30 years after swaths of their territory become damaged beyond repair.

It's easy to not care about this stuff, or not believe it, if you live in the Central or Eastern time zones. It's impossible to ignore it if you live west of there.

[ethanhopkin14]

I look at it like this, I am all for the production of electric cars, but electric cars and the internal combustion engine ones must co-exist.

I am not a fan of the oil companies, but one thing good they did do for us was build a network throughout this country of gas stations, spaced apart perfectly so in most cases, you can take off out of your house on a 1,500 mile road trip and not plan where you are going to stop for fuel because the network is great.  The trade off to that was it took about 50 years to get that network to that point.  Now governments want us to outlaw the sale of gas/diesel powered vehicles, so all that work is wasted.  It will take another 50 years to get the grid back to this point, starting from the day they realized outlawing them was a mistake.  We are not going to start building that network now...it takes a gigantic problem to get anything like that done in this country.  Basically when they decided to outlaw gas/diesel powered cars, we will be reverted back to the 30s or 40s when you didn't take the family road trip because your car wasn't reliable enough to not break down every other day.  Road trips are a luxury, I know, but what about people who just drive a lot in their lives per day?  They will have to give up half their lives because their car doesn't have the range to get them there, or it does have the range, and you have to stop and charge for hours, but you don't have hours to waste doing that. 

I think tests like this on how these electric trucks tow a trailer with water on it through the western Continental Divide are important to see because you are not always going to take your vehicle from work to home.  You need to know how this will work when it happens.  What if you move to another city and have to rent a Uhall to carry all your crap to another state?  I am sure that's not on everyone's mind because as humans we think of the status quo and want the status quo to remain the status quo indefinitely, when that's just not reality.  What if you lose our job that's 5 minutes away and have to take a job 45 minutes away.  Your commuting habits have to change, gas powered car or electric car.  It all changes. 

Do I also agree that a test like this is designed for failure?  Sure I do, but again, it is a practical application (albeit the extreme, but still practical).  It may not be everyone's situation, but you never know when you will have to be in that situation.  It's like when I was in driver's ed and we learned about driving in the ice on a mountain.  I was like, "I live in central Texas, I will never be on an icy mountain."  It wasn't ten years later and I was on said icy mountain saying, this is why we learned about this then. 

I don't care if you replace all internal combustion engines with electric ones.  I am not holding on to the gasoline fumes or the American Muscle.  I am saying we are not ready for it yet...and we will not be ready for it in my lifetime, but, like lots of dumb things people come up with, I will be forced to convert no matter if it's practical or not. 

[vdeane]

It will take another 50 years to get the grid back to this point, starting from the day they realized outlawing them was a mistake.

The network has already been under construction for a decade.  The video tradephoric shared in the middle of the thread (which I think is the one you are referencing) even showed them stopping at Electrify America stations.  It's not as prevalent as gas stations, but it may never need to be outside of major travel corridors, as home charging means that anyone who owns their own parking space will not need to use public chargers except for on a road trip.

Also, it doesn't "take hours to charge".  An Audi e-tron can charge from zero to 80% in half an hour at a DC fast charging station, and most people won't be plugging in at zero.  That misconception really needs to die.  Yes, charging to 100% takes longer, but it's actually faster to stop charging sooner and go to the next charger, and it's bad for the battery to charge up to 100% all the time anyways.

So yes, it's possible to roadtrip in an EV in most of the country.  Given charging speeds, the roadgeek-style "I'm going to drive for 12 hours picking routes I want to clinch and stop nowhere except for an unplanned 5 min gas stop and a drive thru for lunch" will probably die, but how many people do that anyways?  Most people roadtripping area going to sit down somewhere for lunch rather than eating while driving, and they're going to have stops to pee, stretch their legs, and get snacks.

Yes, ICE cars are better than EVs in many things (especially today)... but given automakers improving the cars they make and improvements in charging infrastructure, they probably won't be so much better to stick around.  The best cell phone for texting is one of the fold-out keyboard phones, but how many of those do you see these days?  Just about everyone uses a smartphone, and those who don't either stuck with flip phones or landlines.  We adapt our lives around regressions that tend to happen with the advancement of technology/society all the time.  It will be inconvenient for us roadgeeks and a few others, but that's life.

[skluth]

I look at it like this, I am all for the production of electric cars, but electric cars and the internal combustion engine ones must co-exist.

I am not a fan of the oil companies, but one thing good they did do for us was build a network throughout this country of gas stations, spaced apart perfectly so in most cases, you can take off out of your house on a 1,500 mile road trip and not plan where you are going to stop for fuel because the network is great.  The trade off to that was it took about 50 years to get that network to that point.  Now governments want us to outlaw the sale of gas/diesel powered vehicles, so all that work is wasted.  It will take another 50 years to get the grid back to this point, starting from the day they realized outlawing them was a mistake.  We are not going to start building that network now...it takes a gigantic problem to get anything like that done in this country.  Basically when they decided to outlaw gas/diesel powered cars, we will be reverted back to the 30s or 40s when you didn't take the family road trip because your car wasn't reliable enough to not break down every other day. Road trips are a luxury, I know, but what about people who just drive a lot in their lives per day?  They will have to give up half their lives because their car doesn't have the range to get them there, or it does have the range, and you have to stop and charge for hours, but you don't have hours to waste doing that. 

I think tests like this on how these electric trucks tow a trailer with water on it through the western Continental Divide are important to see because you are not always going to take your vehicle from work to home.  You need to know how this will work when it happens.  What if you move to another city and have to rent a Uhall to carry all your crap to another state?  I am sure that's not on everyone's mind because as humans we think of the status quo and want the status quo to remain the status quo indefinitely, when that's just not reality.  What if you lose our job that's 5 minutes away and have to take a job 45 minutes away.  Your commuting habits have to change, gas powered car or electric car.  It all changes. 

Do I also agree that a test like this is designed for failure?  Sure I do, but again, it is a practical application (albeit the extreme, but still practical).  It may not be everyone's situation, but you never know when you will have to be in that situation.  It's like when I was in driver's ed and we learned about driving in the ice on a mountain.  I was like, "I live in central Texas, I will never be on an icy mountain."  It wasn't ten years later and I was on said icy mountain saying, this is why we learned about this then. 

I don't care if you replace all internal combustion engines with electric ones.  I am not holding on to the gasoline fumes or the American Muscle.  I am saying we are not ready for it yet...and we will not be ready for it in my lifetime, but, like lots of dumb things people come up with, I will be forced to convert no matter if it's practical or not.

Overall, you make several excellent points. I disagree with a couple of your statements (highlighted). As far as spaced apart perfectly so in most cases, that's only true east of the 100th Meridian. There are large gaps on several highways, including interstates, throughout the West. It's not unusual to see signs stating "Next Gas XX Miles" or similar even when driving the interstates. 



It won't take another 50 years to get the grid back to this point; here's an image of current EV chargers. I'd argue that's already decent coverage for EVs with the same issue of lack of coverage west of the 100th Meridian plus spotty support in the rural Deep South. Despite cities in California being fairly far apart compared to the East Coast, almost 1 in 8 new car purchases are EVs. (Note: Over 25% of new purchases in Europe are EVs which helps the economies of scale and should contribute to EV affordability.) The map shows pretty decent EV charger distribution from the Bay Area to San Diego. It may be more difficult to find where EV chargers are available, but that's because gas stations have big signs advertising their location while most EV chargers are inconspicuously placed. EVs have the advantage of being able to be recharged at home nightly vs needing to find a gas station. They can also be charged while shopping or when visiting attractions from Disney to museums. Drivers can still use apps to find EV chargers away from home so this isn't usually an issue, at least along major highways and in urban areas. EVs are also a lot more reliable than those older cars so it won't be like the 30s or 40s though the vehicles are unlikely to be able to be fixed by their owners and the repair infrastructure will need to be improved (especially for EV-only manufacturers like Tesla).

[GaryV]

They can also be charged while shopping or when visiting attractions from Disney to museums.

How many parking spots at your local Kroger or Walmart have an EV charger? How many at the mall or warehouse store? How many parking spots at Disney have an EV charger?

The best we can say right now is that public EV chargers exist, but they are not ubiquitous. Neither are they available in sufficient quantities to service the public if/when EV's become a significant proportion of the vehicle fleet (let alone when ICE vehicles are banned).

A story in the Detroit News about an EV RV:
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2022/07/14/van-life-goes-electric-rv-makers-race-lure-millennials/10038691002/ 
120 miles. Yeah, that's going to get you a long way toward your campsite in Yellowstone.

[ethanhopkin14]

In most cases was the qualifier.  I am aware of the multiple miles of no facilities having driven a lot out west. 

I don't think the network is near as good as most think it is.  It will take a long time to get it running smoothly.  Not to mention, when I need fuel, I love the idea of a hidden gas station that I may be able to find on my phone that I may or may not have on me at the time. 

When I said it would be like the 30s or 40s, I was not referring to reliability at all.  I was referring to people's reluctance to drive any great distance.  In the 30s and 40s is was because your car would break down at the drop of the hat, and carburetors were super picky on which days they wanted to work and which days they didn't, and you engine might not even have an issue.  In contrast, the car may be more reliable, but the energy source is less.   What happens when I run out of juice on those sporadically spaced areas?  Can I get my gas can and fill it with electricity.  At this moment, frankly I don't know what to do.  You can rebuttal with, you have to charge it between remote areas.  Great.  Only problem is I have owned too many rechargeable electronics that say they are fully charged then die on me moments later because either they got a false reading or that battery just wigged out.  I know the same can happen with gas (false reading), but seems like it happens more in electronics than more practical things.  Yes, people will stop driving longer distances like they did a long time ago because it takes too much time to charge them and not near practical enough.

[formulanone]

Do EV chargers bill users which stay too long at a station? In the ideal examples, everyone charges up and gets on with their lives in 30-60 minutes. The reality will be that someone will hog it up for 3-4 hours because they're busy. Realistically, it happens even by accident.

A story in the Detroit News about an EV RV:
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2022/07/14/van-life-goes-electric-rv-makers-race-lure-millennials/10038691002/ 
120 miles. Yeah, that's going to get you a long way toward your campsite in Yellowstone.

Yellowstone is an extreme example; there's probably a half-dozen campsites within 100 miles of most people's homes.

[jamess]

Its easier to have an EV charger in the middle of nowhere than a gas station.

1) A gas station requires electricity already, as pumps are electric. So wherever theres a gas station, you can have an EV charger.

2) Ev "fuel" can be created pretty much anywhere via solar, wind, or geothermal. Gas stations need to be restocked with a truck, which is incredibly inefficient. Hence the $9 gas at the California gas station thats 2 hours away from anything.

As such, even if you do need a charger every 90 miles (which assumes absolutely no improvement in battery storage or vehicle efficiency) thats actually a much easier lift than building gas stations everywhere.

And if we were able to blanket the country in gas stations, I am pretty sure we have the means to do the same with EV chargers. I find the defeatist attitude from some folks to be alarming.

Do EV chargers bill users which stay too long at a station?

Some do. I know Tesla charges idle fees at the busy supercharger stations along highway. Meanwhile, there would be no such fee at the mall parking garage charger, since they want you to linger

[triplemultiplex]

When it comes to big road trips and vacations, many will simply rent a more capable vehicle (hybrid or hydrogen fuel cell) for such endeavors rather than expect their every day driver to also do that.  That's going to become a comparatively more affordable option in the future as the demand for such rentals increases over time.  The money saved on transportation costs throughout the year with a relatively small electric car can really stuff the ol' vacation fund, too.  So realistically, the same person/family is spending the same amount of money on their yearly travel, both commuting and vacationing, even if on the surface, the vacay appears more expensive compared to when they drove the soccer-mom-mobile up to the lake or out the the national park.

In fact, most families could probably afford to rent a much nicer vehicle for the vacation than they could ever afford to own.

[jamess]

Relevant news:

On Thursday, GM announced that it is working with the Pilot Company to install 2,000 DC fast chargers at Pilot and Flying J travel centers around the US.

The chargers will be operated by EVgo, which has already partnered with GM on a fast charger expansion program–initially 2,700 and now 3,250–to be completed by 2025.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/07/gm-evgo-and-pilot-will-install-2000-fast-chargers-at-travel-centers/

[jdbx]

This whole thread is a lot to digest, but one thing that is most striking to me about it:  lots of people debating the merits of EVs, but a dearth of input from people who own or drive EVs.  This technology is moving fast, and some of the opinions I am seeing people share here about range and charging speed make me think that your point of reference is a 2011 Nissan Leaf or an old GM EV1.  I'd like to share my own personal experience and observations as an EV owner that may help clear up some of these misconceptions.

First off, with regards the electric pickup trucks originally referred to in this thread:  the technology and infrastructure are not there yet for out-of-town towing.  I still have an ICE pickup truck that I use to tow my boat because I do take it to several lakes that are a 100-200 mile round-trip from my house.  I would not want to try to tow my boat to Lake Tahoe or Lake Berryessa with a Lightning or an R1T, even with the largest battery option, because I am unconvinced I could make the trip without having to stop and charge midway with a trailer attached.  There are not enough pull-through charging stations out there, and I would not want to have to unhitch a trailer to charge.  IMHO, we are about 5-10 years away from the combination of having pickups with enough range, and enough pull-through charging stations for me to consider replacing my ICE pickup.

I have also owned, over the past several years, a Tesla Model S, Model 3, and Model Y.  Our family uses the Model Y as our primary mode of transport.  It recharges every night in our garage, and although advertised at 300+ mile range, realistically gets closer to 250 when you drive like a normal human.  For most days, that range is all we need and don't need to plug in again until we get home that night, even when taking a day trip to more distant places 100+ miles away.

Road trips are a piece of cake also, we have taken 1000+ miles trips, and the navigation in the car does a great job of telling you where you need to stop and charge.  Tesla has built out an excellent charging network over the past 10 years, and it certainly does have gaps, but I have yet to encounter a trip I did not feel comfortable making due to a lack of chargers.  Do we have to stop more often than we did in an ICE vehicle?  Yes.  At my typical interstate driving speeds of 80-85 MPH, I'm stopping about every 2 hours.  In my younger days, I would have scoffed at that preferring to only stop maybe every 3-4 hours when I needed gas.  I'm in my 40's now, and I appreciate being able to stretch my legs a little more often.  Our average charging stop on a trip like that is about 20-30 minutes.  Longer than the ~5 minute fill-up at a gas pump, sure...  but if you factor in taking a bathroom break or grabbing food, the difference diminishes.

So do EVs require you to stop more often and for longer on a long road trip?  Yes.  But, on road trips that I have done my entire life, such as from the Bay Area to San Diego or Phoenix, taking the trip in an EV vs an ICE vehicle has not added that much additional travel time.  I find that traffic or weather conditions along the way make a much bigger difference than how many times I had to stop.

If I lived in a place that does not provide somewhere to charge a car, or frequently traveled to or through remote off-grid areas, I probably would not have decided to purchase an EV.

I am a suburban homeowner who rarely has to travel more than 250 miles in a day, in fact most days I drive less than 100 miles in a day.  The number of other Americans who would describe themselves the same ways is probably a majority of the population at this point. An EV is an ideal choice in a case like mine. I did not choose to own an EV for environmental reasons, my decision was purely economic. Gas has always been expensive where I live, and I have solar panels so the electricity at home home is essentially free (the cost of panels will have paid for themselves by 2024). Obviously YMMV (quite literally).