Random Thoughts

Started by kenarmy, March 29, 2021, 10:25:21 AM

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Max Rockatansky

Quote from: elsmere241 on January 22, 2023, 04:10:13 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2023, 10:04:07 PM
This hobby has always been male-centric.  Every woman I've ever dated (including my wife) never understood what I got out of driving around weird roads and hunting for interesting signs.

My wife is just starting to grasp the logic behind interstate numbering (or what's left of it).  I remember her asking me not too long ago why I-4 was in Florida, but I-5 was on the west coast.  A Facebook meme helped her with that.

Ironically my wife sent me the same Facebook meme.  It's not as though I hadn't already told her the Interstates and US Routes were mirror systems several times by then.

Regarding the "abysmal"  statement above, is this something that can be solved or needs to be solving?  I and several other community member try to include our wives all the time, it's not as though they are unwelcome at Meets and such. 


J N Winkler

#1776
Today's random thought:  what happens at state lines when adjacent states have both been surveyed using the PLSS?

In Kansas, county boundaries normally follow section lines, which means that if there is a break in a north-south section line at a standard parallel, the county line will have a brief jog along the parallel to pick up the next north-south section line.  (Example:  Sedgwick County has such a break at 77th Street North, which is also the Fifth Standard Parallel South.)  This does not appear to happen at the Colorado state line, as the western boundary of Kansas is explicitly defined as 25° west of the Washington meridian (about 102° and change west of Greenwich).  And although Kansas and most of Colorado are surveyed on the same meridian--the Sixth Principal Meridian--the two states have truncated sections along their shared border.

This made me curious as to whether there are any cases where state borders behave like Kansas county lines.  After inspecting PLSS township boundaries using an online tool, I have not found any.  In most cases, state boundaries are visible as areas of truncated sections.  (In some places, such as at the Minnesota-Wisconsin state line near Duluth, the sections immediately adjacent to the boundary are almost splinter width.)  However, Washington and Oregon appear to have been surveyed together, as townships don't break across the Columbia River.  Townships also appear to be continuous across the Minnesota-North Dakota border and the Minnesota-South Dakota border north of Ortonville, Minnesota; in both cases the border follows the Red River.  I did not find any other instances of apparent continuity across river boundaries, e.g. along the Mississippi.

Edited to add:  Kansas and Nebraska also appear to be on a common survey that is continuous across the state line, which overlaps 40° N.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

US 89

Partial answer to this question would be this map, which shows all the survey baselines and meridians and the lands surveyed from them:



As far as I know, I don’t think any state boundaries are explicitly defined as PLSS section lines. Most of them are either a river (or an old channel of one), a mountain watershed divide, a line of latitude or longitude, a line extending due north/south/whatever from a river confluence, or a straight line connecting intersection points of any lines from the above categories.

Now, if you’re Kansas/Nebraska, your border is the survey baseline…but it’s still defined as a latitude.

Scott5114

My guess is that you are not finding any such boundary irregularities because Congress tends to establish non-natural boundaries as high-level latitude and longitude definitions without regard to the existing PLSS boundaries. The Kansas-Nebraska Act, for example, fixed Kansas's southern border at the 37th parallel north. Thus, if there had been any jogs in a pre-existing PLSS boundary on this parallel, they would have simply been ignored in favor of following the boundary as defined by Congress. If there was not adequate surveying to establish where the desired boundary ran, Congress would likely have provided it as a matter of regulating interstate commerce.

Meanwhile, at the state level, it is much more desirable to follow existing PLSS section lines in setting county boundaries. Doing so means the state can use the existing, already drawn lines rather than have to pay to have new lines surveyed and monumented. It also means that county lines are less likely to bisect existing municipalities or properties (or if they do, they at least do so in a way easily describable through legal language and thus more easily understood by the legal system). In more modern times, section line roads exist, meaning that the line itself is for all practical purposes tied to a physical object easily understood by laypeople.

State and county governments also have a lot more at stake because they are more likely to have to deal with a constituent angry about an inconvenient political boundary negatively affecting them on a personal level. Congress, however, is much less likely to feel the need to be responsive about such trivial matters. (Congress also had the pleasure of drawing most of their boundaries before the areas they were drawing them through were settled by Europeans, so there was less of an incentive to follow pre-existing survey lines to begin with.)
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

J N Winkler

The thing I find interesting is that, with the exception of river boundaries and the Kansas-Nebraska border, there is no continuity of townships across state lines even when the areas on both sides have been surveyed to the same combination of baseline and principal meridian.  For example, an oblong section of eastern Illinois is covered by the Second Principal Meridian and its baseline, which also cover nearly all of Indiana, and although they were fixed in 1805, there are still splinter townships on either side of the Illinois-Indiana line.

Now I am wondering if the presence of these splinter townships has to do not with whether surveying occurs after admission to the Union, but rather organization as a territory.  The Illinois Territory was organized in 1809, after the Second Principal Meridian and its baseline were fixed, but the Indiana Territory was organized in 1800, albeit with lands that later became part of the Illinois and Michigan Territories.

As for county lines not breaking up PLSS sections, it will not surprise me if that norm is more or less universal in areas surveyed to the PLSS.  However, I've done some looking into the Texas land survey system (which of course is completely separate from the PLSS) and it seems that while counties are not allowed to straddle the boundary of any railroad district (Texas has 12), a county line can divide lesser surveying units as long as both parts are within the same district.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Flint1979

Michigan has the baseline as 8 Mile Road and the Meridian as Meridian Road, for a bit it's called Meridian Line Road in the northern Lower Peninsula. I have followed Meridian Road for quite a distance before. It's a state highway in some areas mainly M-30 between M-20 and just north of Sugar River Road about 15 miles south of West Branch, it picks up again at a dead end south of Old M-55, ends at Old M-55 then picks up at another dead end north of I-75 which is running east and west in this area. I've seen a road called Section Line Road in the far northern Lower Peninsula and I haven't been able to confirm if it's Meridian Road but I think it is. Once it hits land in the U.P. in Cedarville it runs as M-129 until just south of M-28's eastern terminus where it shifts on an S curve to become Dixie Highway. Meridian there ends at M-28 then it picks up at I-75's business spur (I'm not sure the actual name of this road) but it then becomes a local street in Sault Ste. Marie. What a road though. On the south end, it goes into Ohio for about 2-3 miles becoming Fulton County Road 26 but I've never seen Meridian Road on that road, it enters Michigan on US-127.

CtrlAltDel

Quote from: J N Winkler on January 23, 2023, 01:37:58 PM
The thing I find interesting is that, with the exception of river boundaries and the Kansas-Nebraska border, there is no continuity of townships across state lines even when the areas on both sides have been surveyed to the same combination of baseline and principal meridian.  For example, an oblong section of eastern Illinois is covered by the Second Principal Meridian and its baseline, which also cover nearly all of Indiana, and although they were fixed in 1805, there are still splinter townships on either side of the Illinois-Indiana line.

Now I am wondering if the presence of these splinter townships has to do not with whether surveying occurs after admission to the Union, but rather organization as a territory.  The Illinois Territory was organized in 1809, after the Second Principal Meridian and its baseline were fixed, but the Indiana Territory was organized in 1800, albeit with lands that later became part of the Illinois and Michigan Territories.

As for county lines not breaking up PLSS sections, it will not surprise me if that norm is more or less universal in areas surveyed to the PLSS.  However, I've done some looking into the Texas land survey system (which of course is completely separate from the PLSS) and it seems that while counties are not allowed to straddle the boundary of any railroad district (Texas has 12), a county line can divide lesser surveying units as long as both parts are within the same district.

They're not states, but I'm wondering how things work with the scraggly border between Alberta and Saskatchewan.
Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

J N Winkler

#1782
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 27, 2023, 10:13:03 PMThey're not states, but I'm wondering how things work with the scraggly border between Alberta and Saskatchewan.

Much of western Canada is under the Dominion Land Survey, which is a near-clone of the PLSS.  The boundary between Alberta and Saskatchewan is the Fourth Meridian in this survey system, and was supposed to overlap longitude 110° West but ended up a few hundred yards to the west due to imprecise surveying methods.

Canada Lands Surveys (a unit of Natural Resources Canada) has index maps online, which show the survey townships for the prairie provinces.

Quote from: Flint1979 on January 23, 2023, 02:21:42 PMMichigan has the baseline as 8 Mile Road and the Meridian as Meridian Road, for a bit it's called Meridian Line Road in the northern Lower Peninsula. I have followed Meridian Road for quite a distance before. It's a state highway in some areas mainly M-30 between M-20 and just north of Sugar River Road about 15 miles south of West Branch, it picks up again at a dead end south of Old M-55, ends at Old M-55 then picks up at another dead end north of I-75 which is running east and west in this area. I've seen a road called Section Line Road in the far northern Lower Peninsula and I haven't been able to confirm if it's Meridian Road but I think it is. Once it hits land in the U.P. in Cedarville it runs as M-129 until just south of M-28's eastern terminus where it shifts on an S curve to become Dixie Highway. Meridian there ends at M-28 then it picks up at I-75's business spur (I'm not sure the actual name of this road) but it then becomes a local street in Sault Ste. Marie. What a road though. On the south end, it goes into Ohio for about 2-3 miles becoming Fulton County Road 26 but I've never seen Meridian Road on that road, it enters Michigan on US-127.

In Wichita, Meridian Avenue gets its name from the fact that it overlaps the Sixth Principal Meridian.  It is also the west edge of Wichita Township, a named township in Sedgwick County that is also a survey township and which contained the entirety of the city of Wichita for several decades after the latter was founded.  However, Meridian Avenue is not a continuous north-south roadway through Wichita, nor is much of its rural length paved.  It is actually Ridge Road--three miles to the west, bisecting the first tier of townships west of the Sixth Principal Meridian--that has over 80 miles of pavement from the Ninnescah River bridge in northern Sumner County to Gypsum in southeastern Saline County, all continuous except for Eisenhower Airport in Wichita.  Part of it was in the state highway system as K-86 (the Canton spur off US 56), and at its north end it is part of K-4 where the latter highway doglegs through downtown Gypsum.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

CtrlAltDel

Quote from: J N Winkler on January 27, 2023, 10:42:44 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 27, 2023, 10:13:03 PMThey're not states, but I'm wondering how things work with the scraggly border between Alberta and Saskatchewan.

Much of western Canada is under the Dominion Land Survey, which is a near-clone of the PLSS.  The boundary between Alberta and Saskatchewan is the Fourth Meridian in this survey system, and was supposed to overlap longitude 110° West but ended up a few hundred yards to the west due to imprecise surveying methods.

Canada Lands Surveys (a unit of Natural Resources Canada) has index maps online, which show the survey townships for the prairie provinces.

Argh, I meant the scraggly border between Manitoba and Saskatchewan.
Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

J N Winkler

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 27, 2023, 10:57:00 PMArgh, I meant the scraggly border between Manitoba and Saskatchewan.

That one does look like a case of the provincial boundary following DLS township lines.  Each jog in the boundary, starting at the US border, seems to correspond to the DLS equivalent of a standard parallel and occurs after every fourth township as you go north, up to a point where the boundary meets the Second Meridian.  From that point on, the boundary follows the meridian and there are splinter townships, at least on the Manitoba side.

Saskatchewan also has splinter townships in its middle, owing to the Third Meridian.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

D-Dey65

#1785
Quote from: elsmere241 on January 22, 2023, 04:10:13 PM
My wife is just starting to grasp the logic behind interstate numbering (or what's left of it).  I remember her asking me not too long ago why I-4 was in Florida, but I-5 was on the west coast.  A Facebook meme helped her with that.
I don't think that's a gender-specific thing. One of my brothers (both of which are slightly younger than me) just found out roughly 20 years ago that even numbered 3di routes were for loops and odd numbered 3di routes were for spurs. Because of this he didn't understand why the route number for the Long Island Expressway was Interstate 495, instead of I-395 or something like that. I had to explain that this was also for the Lincoln Tunnel Connector,  the never-built Mid-Manhattan Expressway and East Marion-Old Saybrook Bridge. I've known this sort of thing before I was even 10. 

D-Dey65

This is taken from the thread on Consecutive statewide interstate segments of similar length;
Quote from: wriddle082 on January 28, 2023, 07:57:14 AM
I-95 is 179 miles in VA and 181 miles in NC.
This reminded me of something else. One time when I visited one of the North Carolina Welcome Centers along I-95, I had a discussion with two of the ladies who worked there about my travels, and I mentioned the fact that I-95 in South Carolina was longer than it is in North Carolina. For some reason she claimed the opposite was true.


Flint1979


MultiMillionMiler

We've had 0 snow so far, thank God, about to break the record for no snow too!

Flint1979

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 29, 2023, 11:41:13 AM
We've had 0 snow so far, thank God, about to break the record for no snow too!
We didn't have any snow a week ago. Just had back to back storms this last one was 6 inches.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 29, 2023, 11:41:13 AM
We've had 0 snow so far, thank God, about to break the record for no snow too!

Which god are we thanking?

Takumi

Quote from: Rothman on July 15, 2021, 07:52:59 AM
Olive Garden must be stopped.  I must stop them.

Don't @ me. Seriously.

Max Rockatansky

#1792
Quote from: Takumi on January 29, 2023, 12:37:02 PM


Every time I see Red's face I end up wondering if Bobby can fly?


D-Dey65

Last night I saw a young woman in a flattering black dress with a beaded necklace and no makeup at a nearby Wal-Mart. She looked like she was ready to go on a date with some guy after she left the store, and I did something impulsive. I told her she looked like she was going on a date. Her reply was "It better be with my husband."  I complimented him to her for his taste in women and walked away.

After this however, I started to think she assumed I was trying to pick her up. For the record, I wasn't.


Flint1979

Something got me thinking about the night the Red Wings won the Stanley Cup back in 2002. I was working and decided to head down to Detroit after work for the night, I was only 23 years old and used to staying up all night and being able to go to work the next day at that time I doubt I could do that anymore but anyway after work I left for Detroit. I knew that they were going to be closing streets for people entering downtown after awhile since downtown was over flooded with people that night. I parked my car at the Greektown garage and walked over to Hockeytown Cafe, then left there and stood on the east side of Woodward Avenue facing the Fox Theater and on the big screen outside Hockeytown Cafe watched the game there with thousands of other people lining Woodward Avenue. I stayed in that area until about the end of the 2nd period and started walking back towards Greektown and got in my car, for some reason left the downtown area for a minute then figured out one entrance into downtown they didn't have closed down and regained entry into downtown. The Wings had a 2-1 lead going into the 3rd period and I was listening to it on the radio at that point. There was probably about 5 minutes to go in the game I remember Brendan Shanahan scoring an empty net goal to make it 3-1 and after it became a final everyone flooded the streets of downtown, honking their horns and going nuts. I was on Michigan and Griswold when the game ended, rode around Detroit blasting music and having a good time all night long then left there about 5 in the morning because I had to be back to Saginaw for work at 8. I was making my way up Woodward and going through Highland Park, stopped for the light at McNichols and two women completely naked ran right across Woodward everyone at the light honked at them. Only in Detroit.

Max Rockatansky

I didn't even know my Grandpa owned a gun until the Red Wings won the Stanley Cup during 1997.  He was a huge Red Wings and we were following the last game against the Flyers on TV at his house in Redford Township on Grand River Avenue (M-5).  About fifteen minutes after the game finished he went into another room and pulled out a random box with a loaded revolver inside.  He said something along the lines of "we better go watch for rioters"  to me and we sat outside on the porch for a couple hours.  People were going nuts in the street celebrating but there wasn't anything like the riots that happened a couple years prior with the Pistons or the Tigers during 1984. 

Flint1979

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 30, 2023, 12:24:57 PM
I didn't even know my Grandpa owned a gun until the Red Wings won the Stanley Cup during 1997.  He was a huge Red Wings and we were following the last game against the Flyers on TV at his house in Redford Township on Grand River Avenue (M-5).  About fifteen minutes after the game finished he went into another room and pulled out a random box with a loaded revolver inside.  He said something along the lines of "we better go watch for rioters"  to me and we sat outside on the porch for a couple hours.  People were going nuts in the street celebrating but there wasn't anything like the riots that happened a couple years prior with the Pistons or the Tigers during 1984.
The 1984 Tigers were the ultimate in Detroit as far as celebrations go as far as I can remember. I was only 5 years old but I have vivid memories of watching that game on TV and my dad wanting to go to Detroit to join in the celebration. I wasn't around for the riots in 1967 but I have seen pictures and can only imagine what it was like that whole summer, the Tigers were in the pennant race up until the last game of the season they split a doubleheader with the Angels on a double play by Dick McAuliffe, only the second double play he hit into the entire season and the Tigers had the tying runs on base going into his at bat. They got their celebration the next season though which was great for Detroit after the riots of the previous summer. I remember the Pistons ones but never was involved in any of the celebrations with those. The 2002 Red Wings though that one was the best of my life. Detroit is a storied sports town for sure.

Flint1979

Looking at this picture makes me want to go to Mooney's for some Superman ice cream. This place was demolished in 1997 and replaced with a Rite Aid. Mooney's still survives but in another location that isn't as historic.

MultiMillionMiler

My mileage for 2023 is up to 2318 as of today. Is that good road geek miles yet? That's about 27,000/year.

Scott5114

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 31, 2023, 11:12:39 PM
My mileage for 2023 is up to 2318 as of today. Is that good road geek miles yet? That's about 27,000/year.

Depends if it's new mileage or not. Doesn't count if you've done it before.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef



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