CA 86S and CA 111?

[Bigmikelakers]

While labeling some highway pics on flickr, I discovered a CA 111 shield on CA 86S in the Mecca area of Riverside County. Google Maps, Thomas Bros, and Yahoo Maps have CA 111 running to the east as Buchanan St. Is this concurrency something new? Or has it been like this for a while and the maps haven't updated yet?


P1180901 by bigmikelakers, on Flickr

[Interstate Trav]

Originally when the 86S expressway was buit they co signed it with the 111.  But the 111 actually follows Grapefruit Blvd  south and even crossed under the 86S.  On maps 111 is showed to go and merge onto 10 east in Indio and then follow the 86S.  But I think the master plan is to keep the 111 seperate from the 86S.

[Quillz]

What is going to happen eventually is CA-86S becomes a new alignment of CA-86. Once that happens, the alignment of CA-86 between I-10 and CA-86S (as well as CA-195) will all be decommissioned. As far as I know, CA-111 should be unaffected, and continues to remain the primary thruway for the Coachella Valley.

[Bigmikelakers]

Wonder when that will happen? 86S looks finished to me.

[Quillz]

Wonder when that will happen? 86S looks finished to me.

I don't think it's actually finished yet. I believe it's supposed to be a full expressway.

And even if it was completed, it still has to be approved, which can take years. At least, I think that's how it works.

[Interstate Trav]

The expressway is completed, I have even driven it.  The old hwy 86 alignment has already been given back to Riverside County from Caltrans (Harrison Street).   Most of the 86 shields on the old route have even been removed and I'm pretty sure almost all of 195 has vanished.
Like in a post above, it will just take some time before the 86S is finally renumbered as 86. 

[agentsteel53]

in 2007, I saw no 195 shields, but there were two surviving paddles.

[Quillz]

Does CA-111 still have that odd eastern terminus in Palm Springs? If you look on a map, it appears to have a very short eastern fork that returns back to I-10 and seemingly terminates, yet the main portion of the route continues south. That never made sense to me... Is that short eastern alignment of CA-111 supposed to be a business route?

[SimMoonXP]

Proposed Interstate 10 and "Not Yet" Proposed 86S map area. The year is 1969 Edition of Riverside Mapbook.

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k606/MoonBabe1213/IMAG0604.jpg

[Desert Man]

Well, my Mom lives by I-10 in a house build in the mid 1960s before the freeway was completed. Old route 99 of Indio Boulevard was once the main fare in town, but when it was decommissioned the older sections of Indio declined, esp. since the early 1990s. The very land shown on page 140 is the Cabazon/Twentynine Palms Indian reservation, whom now controlled the one square mile part of land the I-10/Ca. 86 interchance is located. The sewage plant blocked the 111 to met I-10 by the west, so the CalTrans dept. made Auto (now Golf) Center Parkway in the late 1970s from Calhoun St. to I-10. Other changes in the map is the Junior High school is now a Continuation school, with a Boys and Girls Club. Pages 134 and 140 were part of the quad when Indio was a smaller town.

[oscar]

Reviving this, since my latest observations (I'm in SoCal right now) re-raise some of the questions here.

As noted above, CA 86 north of Mecca (following the former 86S alignment) includes some CA 111 shields, though more often only CA 86 is marked. And 66th Ave.(old CA 195) in Mecca has a sign at the intersection with CA 86, directing CA 111 travelers north on CA 86. Also indicating that CA 111 was rerouted, is that Grapefruit Blvd. (old CA 111) has lost all of its CA 111 signage, including its postmiles.  OTOH, the CA 111/66th St. junction in Mecca doesn't have signs directing CA 111 travelers west on 66th St. Rather, there is a CA 195 shield (one of several in the area, even though the route was decommissioned). cahighways.org says in 2014 the CA 195 connector between CA 111 and CA 86 was formally transferred to CA 111

Heightening the mystery, I saw no signage directing travelers on CA 86/111 north of Mecca back onto the continuation of CA 111 from Indio to Palm Springs (parts relinquished from Indio to Cathedral City,  though route signage is supposed to be maintained). cahighways.org indicates the plan was for CA 111 to continue to a short multiplex with I-10 in Indio, with  a short connector from I-10 added to CA 111 to take travelers back to the rest of CA 111. I saw no signage indicating Jackson St. in Indio might be that connector, though I'll have to check out Golf Center Pkwy. from I-10 exit 144, which seems a logical connector.

I need to do some more field checks and other research, as I head back north out of the Imperial Valley later this week. But I'm tempted, for Travel Mapping (successor to Clinched Highway Mapping) purposes, to break CA 111 in two, with separate segments for the part through Palm Springs and for the rest of the highway south of I-10 in Indio, so we can leave unresolved the mystery of how to connect the two.

[NE2]

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/trucks/truckmap/truck-network-map.htm
18.478 Rte 111 Jct w/4th Street
R18.478 66 th Ave/Rte 111 , 0.1 mi south of 4th Street
R19.455 Begin Route Break - Jct Buchanan St
47.200 End Route Break - 0.052 mi south of Golf Club Dr.

The state maintained SR 111 uses former SR 195 to end just beyond SR 86 at Buchanan Street, but the former route is also maintained just past old SR 195 to 4th Street in Mecca. Nothing is maintained from Mecca until you get to the Cathedral City-Palm Springs border.

[oscar]

Yeah, NE2, that assumes that we should leave out concurrent mileage, such as with CA 86 north of Mecca, and also relinquished segments between Cathedral City and Coachella. For Travel Mapping, we aren't doing the former, and are still working out what to do with relinquishments (especially ones, like the ones from Cathedral City to Indio, where the local jurisdictions are legally required to maintain continuation signage, even if they sometimes don't, and the route hasn't been moved to a new alignment like has apparently happened in Coachella).

[NE2]

As of 2013:
28.527 S. Jct 86
L27.799 W. Jct 10 - L28.736 Jct 111
28.527 N. Jct Rte 86 - 37.859 0.23 miles north of Cook St. in Palm Desert

That L mileage has to be Golf Center Parkway, since everything else is more than a mile between SR 111 and I-10. So had SR 111 not been completely relinquished to Indio, I assume it would have been kept on Golf Center.

[andy3175]

The legislative definition of SR 111 has a significant gap currently that begins near Coachella and Indio and leads northwest through the Coachella Valley to the western limits of Cathedral City, where state maintenance resumes in the city of Palm Springs. I have to think that eventually Caltrans will want to relinquish all of SR 111 northwest of Indio, as local jurisdictions (especially Palm Springs) agree to take on the route. The gap in between is generally known as "Highway 111" (example: https://goo.gl/maps/jUi61AGouLs). Here is the current Streets and Highways Code definition:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=shc&group=00001-01000&file=300-635

411.  (a) Route 111 is from:
   (1) The international border south of Calexico to Route 78 near
Brawley, passing east of Heber.
   (2) Route 78 near Brawley to Route 86 via the north shore of the
Salton Sea.
   (3) The western city limits of Cathedral City to Route 10 near
Whitewater.
   (b) The relinquished former portions of Route 111 within the
unincorporated area of the County of Riverside and the Cities of
Cathedral City, Coachella, Indian Wells, Indio, La Quinta, Palm
Desert, and Rancho Mirage are not state highways and are not eligible
for adoption under Section 81. For the relinquished former portions
of Route 111, the County of Riverside and the Cities of Cathedral
City, Coachella, Indian Wells, Indio, La Quinta, and Palm Desert, as
applicable, shall maintain within their respective jurisdictions
signs directing motorists to the continuation of Route 111 and shall
ensure the continuity of traffic flow on the relinquished portions of
Route 111, including any traffic signal progression.

[andy3175]

Proposed Interstate 10 and "Not Yet" Proposed 86S map area. The year is 1969 Edition of Riverside Mapbook.

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k606/MoonBabe1213/IMAG0604.jpg

The I-10 shown on this map seems to approximate the Business Loop 10 routing that was well signed for years but recently has been unsigned within the city of Indio.

[oscar]

I suspect Caltrans' grand design is to get rid of CA 111 north of CA 78 (part of which could be added to CA 115), and CA 86 south of CA 78, leaving one multilane divided state highway in the Salton Sea area between the Mexican border and I-10. See the relinquishments authorized (but AFAIK not carried out) for all of CA 86 from Brawley southward.

[mrsman]

The legislative definition of SR 111 has a significant gap currently that begins near Coachella and Indio and leads northwest through the Coachella Valley to the western limits of Cathedral City, where state maintenance resumes in the city of Palm Springs. I have to think that eventually Caltrans will want to relinquish all of SR 111 northwest of Indio, as local jurisdictions (especially Palm Springs) agree to take on the route. The gap in between is generally known as "Highway 111" (example: https://goo.gl/maps/jUi61AGouLs). Here is the current Streets and Highways Code definition:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=shc&group=00001-01000&file=300-635

411.  (a) Route 111 is from:
   (1) The international border south of Calexico to Route 78 near
Brawley, passing east of Heber.
   (2) Route 78 near Brawley to Route 86 via the north shore of the
Salton Sea.
   (3) The western city limits of Cathedral City to Route 10 near
Whitewater.
   (b) The relinquished former portions of Route 111 within the
unincorporated area of the County of Riverside and the Cities of
Cathedral City, Coachella, Indian Wells, Indio, La Quinta, Palm
Desert, and Rancho Mirage are not state highways and are not eligible
for adoption under Section 81. For the relinquished former portions
of Route 111, the County of Riverside and the Cities of Cathedral
City, Coachella, Indian Wells, Indio, La Quinta, and Palm Desert, as
applicable, shall maintain within their respective jurisdictions
signs directing motorists to the continuation of Route 111 and shall
ensure the continuity of traffic flow on the relinquished portions of
Route 111, including any traffic signal progression.

As the 86 freeway has been extended over the years, I have always conceptually thought of 111 as being multiple state highways, joined by one number, as opposed to one coherent routing. 

The northern section is like a business routing of I-10 through Palm Springs - Indio.  It should not serve through traffic at all.

From Indio to Mecca, it appears that this is now not even signed very well.  The CA 86 freeway has become the default routing for traffic. 

From Mecca to Hovley, we have a nice classic highway to serve the towns on the eastern shore of the Salton Sea.  The fast traffic will stay on CA 86 on the western shore.

South of Hovley, 111 takes over the main routing to Mexico.

It makes total sense to treat these as separate segments for clinching purposes, especially as the legal routing and relinquishment status is somewhat in flux. 
It makes even more sense to actually truncate CA-111 so that it does not exist north of Mecca and to renumber the highway through Palm Desert (or give it a street name).

[mrsman]

I suspect Caltrans' grand design is to get rid of CA 111 north of CA 78 (part of which could be added to CA 115), and CA 86 south of CA 78, leaving one multilane divided state highway in the Salton Sea area between the Mexican border and I-10. See the relinquishments authorized (but AFAIK not carried out) for all of CA 86 from Brawley southward.

Yes.  It appears that they may be following an old idea that I suggested on Fictional Highways to construct the main Indio-Calexico routing as one highway.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

See:  https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=11063.msg273028#msg273028

[The High Plains Traveler]

We just drove this area in the last two weeks. Coming down into Palm Desert along CA-74, there is no junction signage for 111. In fact, 74 ends at the PD city limits, so there is no 74 signage along the last couple of miles either except for street name signs. If I wasn't familiar with the area, I would have had no idea (old) 111 was coming up, and only the street name signs on the signal mast arms identified the route. To me, it looks like 111 is non-existent from the Palm Springs-Cat City line and Indio. Very bad for people using the route number for navigation.

As far as 86, I think the divided highway should have one identity from Indio to Calexico. That would mean redesignating 111 south of 78 as 86. This would be effective as soon as the relinquishment of current 86 south of Brawley is effective. Otherwise, 86 would end at the current west junction with 78. As a bonus, the old route south of Brawley could get a County S-99 designation.

[oscar]

We just drove this area in the last two weeks. Coming down into Palm Desert along CA-74, there is no junction signage for 111. In fact, 74 ends at the PD city limits, so there is no 74 signage along the last couple of miles either except for street name signs. If I wasn't familiar with the area, I would have had no idea (old) 111 was coming up, and only the street name signs on the signal mast arms identified the route. To me, it looks like 111 is non-existent from the Palm Springs-Cat City line and Indio. Very bad for people using the route number for navigation.

At least you have the "Highway 111" street blade signs most of the way from the Palm Springs city limits to Indio. There is a gap in that signage through Cathedral City, where the road is called Palm Canyon Dr. rather than Highway 111, with no signage indicating you're still on (former) CA 111 until the eastern Cathedral City limits.

All the jurisdictions from Cathedral City to Indio are required by statute to maintain continuation signage directing travelers to the rest of CA 111. "Highway 111" street blades are less than ideal continuation signage, IMO, though they provide some reassurance if you know to look up and to the side at major intersections. But considering how sloppy some jurisdictions taking over other relinquished roads have been in meeting "continuation signage" requirements, Caltrans might have decided to take what it can get for old CA 111.

As far as 86, I think the divided highway should have one identity from Indio to Calexico. That would mean redesignating 111 south of 78 as 86. This would be effective as soon as the relinquishment of current 86 south of Brawley is effective. Otherwise, 86 would end at the current west junction with 78. As a bonus, the old route south of Brawley could get a County S-99 designation.

Good question whether that authorized relinquishment will ever be carried out. (When I was there in February, CA 86 was fully signed in Brawley and down to El Centro.) This might be another situation where Caltrans would dearly love to fob a surplus highway off on local governments (it doesn't really need two state highways between Brawley and El Centro), but the localities are not nearly as enthusiastic about taking the highway off Caltrans' hands, and never got around to agreeing to the transfer.

[The High Plains Traveler]

Good question whether that authorized relinquishment will ever be carried out. (When I was there in February, CA 86 was fully signed in Brawley and down to El Centro.) This might be another situation where Caltrans would dearly love to fob a surplus highway off on local governments (it doesn't really need two state highways between Brawley and El Centro), but the localities are not nearly as enthusiastic about taking the highway off Caltrans' hands, and never got around to agreeing to the transfer.

As of this week, if you want to bypass Brawley, you have to know to turn left at CA-78. Then CA-111 comes into the expressway, and eventually 78 turns off toward Blythe and you're proceeding on 111 down to I-8. I wonder if ultimately there will be some other traffic control - such as an interchange - to direct through traffic into the expressway from southbound 86. That intersection and its signals look pretty permanent.

[oscar]

As of this week, if you want to bypass Brawley, you have to know to turn left at CA-78. Then CA-111 comes into the expressway, and eventually 78 turns off toward Blythe and you're proceeding on 111 down to I-8. I wonder if ultimately there will be some other traffic control - such as an interchange - to direct through traffic into the expressway from southbound 86. That intersection and its signals look pretty permanent.

I don't see any likelihood of, or need for, an interchange at the CA 78/86 junction. But signs directing El Centro- or Mexico-bound traffic onto the bypass would help through travelers avoid slogging through not only Brawley, but also Imperial and other communities on CA 86 north of El Centro. Both the bypass, and CA 111 between Brawley and I-8, are much faster than staying on CA 86, even if they add a few miles to a trip starting or ending in El Centro rather than the international border.

[djsekani]

As of 2013:
28.527 S. Jct 86
L27.799 W. Jct 10 - L28.736 Jct 111
28.527 N. Jct Rte 86 - 37.859 0.23 miles north of Cook St. in Palm Desert

That L mileage has to be Golf Center Parkway, since everything else is more than a mile between SR 111 and I-10. So had SR 111 not been completely relinquished to Indio, I assume it would have been kept on Golf Center.

Correct, the I-10 exit to Golf Center Pkwy was signed as CA-111 for a while. An odd choice, since traffic coming from the expressway routing of CA-111 would've had to cross two lanes of interstate traffic in something like 1000 feet to make the exit.