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I-49 in Northern Louisiana (Louisiana closes I-49 way too soon in cold weather.)

Started by bwana39, February 11, 2021, 11:52:42 PM

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bwana39

Louisiana closes I-49 way too soon in cold weather.  Last month there was a forecast of sleet and they closed it from I-220 to the state line southbound. They detoured the traffic at the first suitable Northbound  exit in Louisiana (Mira - Myrtis Road... Caddo Parish 16.) From there all of the traffic is routed on US-71 which is two lane and terrible. Last month it didn't sleet. Fact of business it was 31 degrees and clear overnight.  They DID at least open it EARLY the next morning.

Tonight, they did it again. It MAY sleet tonight. It did rain some today and there Might be some ice in the morning.  Last year, they didn't close it a single time. The year before, they kept it closed for nearly a week once and a day or two a different time.  There May have been justification for a day MAYBE two of the week and one of the other times there was icing. Arkansas NEVER closed their stretch. With the exception of one day year-before last, the traffic went its regular 75+ mph southbound until Mira-Myrtis Rd then slogged at 45 behind the trucks that were overly cautious for the traffic not the weather. The roads were dry except for the chuckholes and they were several.

I guess the point is there has never been a significant multi-car weather related wreck on this stretch and Louisiana isn't going to give it  a chance to happen. As far as that goes, if the road does get icy, it may be as much because there isn't traffic to keep it clear as it is that would ice and be too slick for traffic.  what they should be doing is monitoring the Interstate and when it begins to become hazardous then close it, not close it as a prophylactic measure before the weather even comes, much less the roads becoming less than stellar.

I might give one caveat, the I-220 intersection MIGHT merit early closure. That would be as simple as forcing the traffic to exit Southbound at North Market and Closing the I-220 and MLK Exits from / to  I-49 and allowing Northbound traffic onto the freeway at North Market.  This was the route before the I-220 intersection was opened.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=12856.msg311424#msg311424 (This thread is all about this stretch.)

I-49 from I-20 to Bert Kouns has problems with pileups when it is dry. Perhaps it should close a little early, but not as soon as it currently does.

There have been some MAJOR pileups on I-49 between Shreveport and Natchitoches. This is the root of the problem. Initially they left I-49 South open until it closed itself. This led to real problems. 

Their reaction was to over react. SO now it will never see a patch of ice when it is open because it will close with the temp in the mid-thirties and completely dry, just because someone in the weather business say it COULD be 28 with precip. 
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.


US 89

Quote from: bwana39 on February 11, 2021, 11:52:42 PM
Their reaction was to over react. SO now it will never see a patch of ice when it is open because it will close with the temp in the mid-thirties and completely dry, just because someone in the weather business say it COULD be 28 with precip.

Never hurts to be cautious when the same storm just caused a 100-car pileup in Fort Worth with at least 6 fatalities...

bwana39

Quote from: US 89 on February 12, 2021, 01:14:27 AM
Quote from: bwana39 on February 11, 2021, 11:52:42 PM
Their reaction was to over react. SO now it will never see a patch of ice when it is open because it will close with the temp in the mid-thirties and completely dry, just because someone in the weather business say it COULD be 28 with precip.

Never hurts to be cautious when the same storm just caused a 100-car pileup in Fort Worth with at least 6 fatalities...

Yea but........,

There is a difference in erring toward caution and ridiculous.  The  night it was closed several weeks ago, it was dry and never got below 31. Yesterday in Fort Worth it was 23F to 27F at 6:00 AM.  It had rained and freezing fog.  Big difference in closing it at the first sign of icing and closing it for a weather forecast that fails to even start to materialize.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

edwaleni

What is even more frightful was all the people with their cell phones/dash cams in the opposing lanes recording the entire thing. One semi literally climbed over the top and landed.


bwana39

I do get what you are saying, BUT I-49 is 3-hours away from Fort Worth.  Would you close the freeways in Baltimore because weather impacted traffic in New York City?  The distance is similar.

It MIGHT blow down there...


On a less argumentative note, they did open it soon after daylight this morning.  The process has improved over the past couple of years. Year before last, they closed it as soon as the snow / sleet / ice fell and kept it closed until all of the snow melted from the embankments. 
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

hotdogPi

Quote from: bwana39 on February 12, 2021, 01:18:20 PM
I do get what you are saying, BUT I-49 is 3-hours away from Fort Worth.  Would you close the freeways in Baltimore because weather impacted traffic in New York City?  The distance is similar.

It MIGHT blow down there...


On a less argumentative note, they did open it soon after daylight this morning.  The process has improved over the past couple of years. Year before last, they closed it as soon as the snow / sleet / ice fell and kept it closed until all of the snow melted from the embankments.

Shreveport is primarily east of DFW. Baltimore is mostly south and slightly west of NYC, a direction storms don't travel. (Baltimore drivers also know how to drive in snowy and icy conditions.)
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

bassoon1986

I'm from Louisiana and I don't really understand why they close this section either. It's not elevated other than a couple of overpasses at exits. Anything is safer than the 2 lane US 71.

The other closures that happen as soon as there is precipitation near 32 degrees? Absolutely - I-49 through Shreveport and further south through the city of Alexandria. Completely elevated and the first to freeze.


iPhone

r15-1

Quote from: bassoon1986 on February 13, 2021, 12:01:46 AM
I'm from Louisiana and I don't really understand why they close this section either. It's not elevated other than a couple of overpasses at exits. Anything is safer than the 2 lane US 71.

The other closures that happen as soon as there is precipitation near 32 degrees? Absolutely - I-49 through Shreveport and further south through the city of Alexandria. Completely elevated and the first to freeze. iPhone
The entire length of I-220 is routinely closed also and has been since it was first opened. They just extended the same policy to I-49. They have permanently pre-stationed barrels and barricades at all of the I-220 entrance ramps.

Road Hog


Bobby5280

Quote from: bwana39I do get what you are saying, BUT I-49 is 3-hours away from Fort Worth.  Would you close the freeways in Baltimore because weather impacted traffic in New York City? The distance is similar.

Depending on the weather system both the DFW area and Shreveport can be affected by the same adverse weather system at the same time. It's very common for something like an upper level high pressure system to be big enough to completely cover half a dozen states. It's also common for a storm front trailing from a low pressure system to span more than 1000 miles.

Maybe the folks in Louisiana might be jumping the gun on closing highways. But I think it's a bit better to inconvenience drivers by shutting down a road in advance of hazardous weather instead of waiting for car crashes, possibly fatal, life-ending car crashes, before deciding whether or not to take action.

Quote from: 1Shreveport is primarily east of DFW. Baltimore is mostly south and slightly west of NYC, a direction storms don't travel. (Baltimore drivers also know how to drive in snowy and icy conditions.)

Y'know, I'm just going to put this out there that every part of the US has LOTS of drivers who do not know how to drive for hazardous conditions, or better yet they chose not to drive with caution. Every region has them. Maybe Northern states do have a greater number of motorists who know to be careful when driving in snowy or icy conditions. Nevertheless, there have been plenty of noteworthy pile-ups that have taken place in far North states due to snowy or icy conditions.

Here's a news story from 2/26/19 about a 131 car pileup on I-41 in Wisconsin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3pt80l0NYU

193 vehicle pile-up in Michigan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zms_9Y6mk8

Big pile-up in Wyoming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxlvxvG8zOE

Another from Wisconsin in 2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kj6f2iSkrI

There's plenty of these kinds of videos and news stories of other similar pile-ups. Yeah, I would agree with anyone that drivers in the South can get pretty stupid with driving decisions when it gets icy. But the evidence is clear that stupidity is not unique to just drivers in the South.

cjk374

As noted above, the very first road that closes when the threat of winter precipitation is announced is the entire length of I-220. This has been step #1 as long as I can remember in 47 years of living.

Step #2 has always been to close I-49 from I-20 to the Bert Kouns Ind Loop exit (#199) because it's elevated highway.

I-49 north of Shreveport has been step #3 in road closings ever since it was built & opened to traffic a few years ago. Why? The only guess I have is they want to focus all resources on keeping I-20 flowing (more traffic vs I-49).

But right now (6 a.m. on 2/15/21), LaDOTD has deemed all state maintained roads in the NW region of the state as "impassable, except for open segments of I-20 & I-49." In the Monroe/West Monroe area (NE region for those not familiar with this area), I have been receiving notices every 5-10 minutes of ramps being closed along the elevated portion of I-20 over the Ouachita River. Once DOTD loses the Ouachita River Bridge due to wrecks & traffic snarls, it's game over for traffic moving through North Louisiana.
Runnin' roads and polishin' rails.

debragga

Quote from: cjk374 on February 15, 2021, 07:09:46 AM
As noted above, the very first road that closes when the threat of winter precipitation is announced is the entire length of I-220. This has been step #1 as long as I can remember in 47 years of living.

Step #2 has always been to close I-49 from I-20 to the Bert Kouns Ind Loop exit (#199) because it's elevated highway.

I-49 north of Shreveport has been step #3 in road closings ever since it was built & opened to traffic a few years ago. Why? The only guess I have is they want to focus all resources on keeping I-20 flowing (more traffic vs I-49).

But right now (6 a.m. on 2/15/21), LaDOTD has deemed all state maintained roads in the NW region of the state as "impassable, except for open segments of I-20 & I-49." In the Monroe/West Monroe area (NE region for those not familiar with this area), I have been receiving notices every 5-10 minutes of ramps being closed along the elevated portion of I-20 over the Ouachita River. Once DOTD loses the Ouachita River Bridge due to wrecks & traffic snarls, it's game over for traffic moving through North Louisiana.

I've never understood why they close 220 and the rural parts of 49, but that makes sense that they would want to focus resources on I-20. As for the Ouachita River Bridge, it seemed fine when I was on it last night, but that was before all the snow came down early this morning and there was only some ice on the bridge. If they do have to close it, that would be a nightmare for anyone having to pass through, especially since the Endom Bridge and N 18th overpass are some of the first to close in the area if there's a chance of winter weather. The only bridge over the Ouachita left open in the area would then be the Joyner Bridge, which is extremely narrow anyway and had no visible lane markings last night (again, before most of the snowfall).

cjk374

Quote from: debragga on February 15, 2021, 06:57:10 PM
Quote from: cjk374 on February 15, 2021, 07:09:46 AM
As noted above, the very first road that closes when the threat of winter precipitation is announced is the entire length of I-220. This has been step #1 as long as I can remember in 47 years of living.

Step #2 has always been to close I-49 from I-20 to the Bert Kouns Ind Loop exit (#199) because it's elevated highway.

I-49 north of Shreveport has been step #3 in road closings ever since it was built & opened to traffic a few years ago. Why? The only guess I have is they want to focus all resources on keeping I-20 flowing (more traffic vs I-49).

But right now (6 a.m. on 2/15/21), LaDOTD has deemed all state maintained roads in the NW region of the state as "impassable, except for open segments of I-20 & I-49." In the Monroe/West Monroe area (NE region for those not familiar with this area), I have been receiving notices every 5-10 minutes of ramps being closed along the elevated portion of I-20 over the Ouachita River. Once DOTD loses the Ouachita River Bridge due to wrecks & traffic snarls, it's game over for traffic moving through North Louisiana.

I've never understood why they close 220 and the rural parts of 49, but that makes sense that they would want to focus resources on I-20. As for the Ouachita River Bridge, it seemed fine when I was on it last night, but that was before all the snow came down early this morning and there was only some ice on the bridge. If they do have to close it, that would be a nightmare for anyone having to pass through, especially since the Endom Bridge and N 18th overpass are some of the first to close in the area if there's a chance of winter weather. The only bridge over the Ouachita left open in the area would then be the Joyner Bridge, which is extremely narrow anyway and had no visible lane markings last night (again, before most of the snowfall).

I-220 has the widest and deepest median in the area. Imagine hundreds of cars sliding off in there....I don't think there are enough tow truck with cables long enough to reach down in there.
There is also the Cross Lake bridge. Two miles of bridge over Shreveport's main drinking water source...instantly tainted if a car or truck falls off the bridge and into the lake. No bueno.
Runnin' roads and polishin' rails.

triplemultiplex

Quote from: cjk374 on February 15, 2021, 07:44:33 PM
There is also the Cross Lake bridge. Two miles of bridge over Shreveport's main drinking water source...instantly tainted if a car or truck falls off the bridge and into the lake. No bueno.

They drink surface water in NE Louisiana?  Gross.  Surely they have some decent aquifers underneath them.  It is not an arid place, nor is the population so large as to overwhelm natural groundwater recharge.  I really hope that's wrong about Cross Lake.
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

bwana39

Yes, I -49 runs right over the top of Shreveport's primary water source.

Right now, LOTD SHOULD have most of the roads in NWLA closed. I-49 SHOULD be closed.

I will disagree with the order. I-49 since it has been opened north has ALWAYS been the first to close. I-49 from I-20 to Bert Kouns and I-220 generally closed about the same time as I-49 until last year. Starting last year, they would close I-49 north the night before forecasted weather conditions. I-220 would remain open until it the conditions start to deteriorate. Until this week, I-220 has not been closed this year.

MY point is that they close I-49 BEFORE the weather even gets there and historically leave it closed after the roads are clear. You drive from Texarkana to Mira Myrtis Road at 75 with no snow, no icy bridges, etc.

The two times they  closed it this year before this week they opened it promptly the next morning.  They have improved their process,
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

cjk374

Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 16, 2021, 10:23:53 AM
Quote from: cjk374 on February 15, 2021, 07:44:33 PM
There is also the Cross Lake bridge. Two miles of bridge over Shreveport's main drinking water source...instantly tainted if a car or truck falls off the bridge and into the lake. No bueno.

They drink surface water in NE Louisiana?  Gross.  Surely they have some decent aquifers underneath them.  It is not an arid place, nor is the population so large as to overwhelm natural groundwater recharge.  I really hope that's wrong about Cross Lake.

The area does have an underground water supply called the Sparta Aquifer. Shreveport would be a major drain on it if not for Cross Lake..

Btw...Shreveport's back up water supply when Cross Lake gets too low:  12-mile Bayou.
Runnin' roads and polishin' rails.

Anthony_JK

Quote from: bwana39 on February 16, 2021, 12:14:45 PM
Yes, I -49 runs right over the top of Shreveport's primary water source.

Right now, LOTD SHOULD have most of the roads in NWLA closed. I-49 SHOULD be closed.

I will disagree with the order. I-49 since it has been opened north has ALWAYS been the first to close. I-49 from I-20 to Bert Kouns and I-220 generally closed about the same time as I-49 until last year. Starting last year, they would close I-49 north the night before forecasted weather conditions. I-220 would remain open until it the conditions start to deteriorate. Until this week, I-220 has not been closed this year.

MY point is that they close I-49 BEFORE the weather even gets there and historically leave it closed after the roads are clear. You drive from Texarkana to Mira Myrtis Road at 75 with no snow, no icy bridges, etc.

The two times they  closed it this year before this week they opened it promptly the next morning.  They have improved their process,

Isn't Cross Lake the primary drinking water source for the Shreveport-Bossier City area? If so, than it's I-220, not I-49, that is the culprit that passes through.

Once the Inner City Connector segment is finished on I-49 through central Shreveport, that will mean less traffic over I-220, and Cross Lake will be less likely to be contaminated.

debragga


cjk374

Quote from: Anthony_JK on February 16, 2021, 03:02:59 PM

Once the Inner City Connector segment is finished on I-49 through central Shreveport, that will mean less traffic over I-220, and Cross Lake will be less likely to be contaminated.


It will also be one of the very first roads closed when there is a threat of a snowflake or ice pellet.
Runnin' roads and polishin' rails.

snowc

Quote from: edwaleni on February 12, 2021, 09:45:00 AM
What is even more frightful was all the people with their cell phones/dash cams in the opposing lanes recording the entire thing. One semi literally climbed over the top and landed.


Holy shiitake, this is some serious trouble. 😳

bwana39

Quote from: debragga on February 16, 2021, 03:34:05 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on February 16, 2021, 12:14:45 PM
Until this week, I-220 has not been closed this year.

I-220 was closed on January 10th because of winter weather: https://twitter.com/Shreveport_Traf/status/1348413686185127942

Mea culpa and I didn't go to the office the next day. Tuesday it was business as usual.

The point is not times when it actually snowed likel the 10 th and 11th of January and this week. It is times when they close I-49 before the first drop of precipitation falls.

At least once this year, I took I-220 to US-71 and exited there because I-49 was closed. 
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Hot Rod Hootenanny

Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 16, 2021, 10:23:53 AM
Quote from: cjk374 on February 15, 2021, 07:44:33 PM
There is also the Cross Lake bridge. Two miles of bridge over Shreveport's main drinking water source...instantly tainted if a car or truck falls off the bridge and into the lake. No bueno.

They drink surface water in NE Louisiana?  Gross.  Surely they have some decent aquifers underneath them.  It is not an arid place, nor is the population so large as to overwhelm natural groundwater recharge.  I really hope that's wrong about Cross Lake.

Ever have tap water in New Orleans?
Please, don't sue Alex & Andy over what I wrote above

webny99

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 14, 2021, 02:46:31 AM
Quote from: 1Shreveport is primarily east of DFW. Baltimore is mostly south and slightly west of NYC, a direction storms don't travel. (Baltimore drivers also know how to drive in snowy and icy conditions.)

Y'know, I'm just going to put this out there that every part of the US has LOTS of drivers who do not know how to drive for hazardous conditions, or better yet they chose not to drive with caution. Every region has them. Maybe Northern states do have a greater number of motorists who know to be careful when driving in snowy or icy conditions. Nevertheless, there have been plenty of noteworthy pile-ups that have taken place in far North states due to snowy or icy conditions.

...

There's plenty of these kinds of videos and news stories of other similar pile-ups. Yeah, I would agree with anyone that drivers in the South can get pretty stupid with driving decisions when it gets icy. But the evidence is clear that stupidity is not unique to just drivers in the South.

Drivers being unfamiliar with winter weather is part of it, but the systems being inadequate to handle the weather is also a significant problem. Roadways in the north would have been salted/sanded prior to the storm, and would certainly never be closed because a few inches of snow. A few inches of snow that falls overnight would almost always be cleared by morning to provide commuters with mostly clear roads.

In other words, the weather conditions of the other pileups you linked to were much, much worse and more dangerous than the conditions in the Fort Worth crash. Fort Worth just isn't used to winter maintenance, so they handled it ineptly, and that makes a bad situation even worse for the drivers in the area who aren't used to, or expecting, the poor conditions.

triplemultiplex

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on February 16, 2021, 10:14:11 PM
Ever have tap water in New Orleans?

Sad to say I haven't.  I still have to someday set foot in Louisiana, much less it's coolest city. ;)
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

snowc

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on February 16, 2021, 10:14:11 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 16, 2021, 10:23:53 AM
Quote from: cjk374 on February 15, 2021, 07:44:33 PM
There is also the Cross Lake bridge. Two miles of bridge over Shreveport's main drinking water source...instantly tainted if a car or truck falls off the bridge and into the lake. No bueno.

They drink surface water in NE Louisiana?  Gross.  Surely they have some decent aquifers underneath them.  It is not an arid place, nor is the population so large as to overwhelm natural groundwater recharge.  I really hope that's wrong about Cross Lake.

Ever have tap water in New Orleans?
No.



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