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Garden State Parkway

Started by Roadrunner75, July 30, 2014, 09:53:00 PM

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roadman65

Quote from: Don'tKnowYet on November 09, 2014, 10:00:17 AM
Quote from: storm2k on November 08, 2014, 11:18:12 PM
Interesting thing I noted today. The new signage for 129 going southbound gives New York and Camden as the control cities. The signage for 129 going northbound shows New York and Trenton as control cities. I would have figured that they would have the same control cities going both directions.

Isn't it because a southbound truss or two outside Metropark also says Trenton for Exit 130? If there is an Advance guide sign for both Exits 130 and 129 on the same truss, you can't have the same exact destination for two different exits.
Not necessarily.  I have seen many times when two different routes used the same exact control points.  Look at the sign in Battleboro, NC at the US 301 and NC 4 split.  Both NC 4 and US 301 use Richmond as control point and DelDOT used to use it for the signs leaving the Delaware Memorial Bridge.  Baltimore was used as control city for where US 40 left the I-295 freeway for US 13 on the same bridge that I-95 advanced guides were using Baltimore as well.

However, the fact that Trenton is control point for Exit 130 may be why Camden is used for the NJT SB as Northbound on the GSP there is no exit for Exit 130.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe


bzakharin

Do people really take US-1 all the way to Trenton, or Newark for that matter, from Exit 130 on the Parkway? I would think they would take the Turnpike for the former. For the latter, I suppose if they missed all those exits on the Parkway further north, they could use Exit 130 to make a U-Turn

odditude

Quote from: bzakharin on November 09, 2014, 05:30:06 PM
Do people really take US-1 all the way to Trenton, or Newark for that matter, from Exit 130 on the Parkway? I would think they would take the Turnpike for the former. For the latter, I suppose if they missed all those exits on the Parkway further north, they could use Exit 130 to make a U-Turn
All the time. I live outside Trenton, and when heading northbound it's only up to traffic whether the right way to go is Route 1 or 195 to the Turnpike.

roadman65

Quote from: bzakharin on November 09, 2014, 05:30:06 PM
Do people really take US-1 all the way to Trenton, or Newark for that matter, from Exit 130 on the Parkway? I would think they would take the Turnpike for the former. For the latter, I suppose if they missed all those exits on the Parkway further north, they could use Exit 130 to make a U-Turn
Actually they did when I lived there over 20 years ago.  It is not that bad as the lights were pretty much timed right.

As far as Newark goes, yes it is dumb to use.  Considering the GSP just came from there 10 miles ago, but FDOT does the same thing in Florida.  Look at the Exit 414 SB I-75 sign for Lake City!  It was just passed over 15 miles ago and yet it is used as a control point.  Even better yet, the I-75/ US 27 interchange in Broward County, FL did the same going NB for Miami on I-75 using Miami for SB US 27.  Now its Hialeah, but still the same effect being that I-75 just came from there as its southern terminus is there.

You are right the NJTA could come up with better control points for Exit 130.  Woodbridge, Avenel, Rahway, and even Linden would work for NB US 1 and for SB you could use Edison or even New Brunswick.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Don'tKnowYet

Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2014, 03:24:46 AM
Quote from: bzakharin on November 09, 2014, 05:30:06 PM
Do people really take US-1 all the way to Trenton, or Newark for that matter, from Exit 130 on the Parkway? I would think they would take the Turnpike for the former. For the latter, I suppose if they missed all those exits on the Parkway further north, they could use Exit 130 to make a U-Turn

You are right the NJTA could come up with better control points for Exit 130.  Woodbridge, Avenel, Rahway, and even Linden would work for NB US 1 and for SB you could use Edison or even New Brunswick.

None of these would be better. Maybe all, at best, would be equally as bad, but i personally find them all worse. I think NJTA used Trenton correctly and here's why.  Woodbridge is on the Exit 129 Advance guide sign. Notwithstanding the same reasons i would cite from other posts above, you now would put Woodbridge AND Trenton twice on the same truss, because as i understand it, you see zero potential in that disorienting the motorist.

I don't even know what Avenel is. Is that like a Johnson and Johnson cream and/or campus in the area?  So, exactly what benefit does Avenel serve as a destination? Who goes there?

Rahway and Linden are both signed for at Exit 131 i think.  So the U-Turn issue some may or may not think is worthy is the same logic here. So what criteria is to be used when picking a destination to U-Turn to?  There are several destinations all applicable along the US 1 corridor.

There is a dinky EDISON NEXT 4 EXITS sign somewhere southbound. Although it should be more prominent, when you use a Community Idetification Interchange sign or whatever they're called, you don't plop that same destination back up on an Advance gude sign as this WILL disorient the motorist. 

New Brunswick is currently sugned for as a Supplemental destination at southbound Exit 130. Now you can't use the same destination both as a supplemental destination AND as a primary destination for the same exit, but if you argue that New Brunswick should have replaced Trenton, i suspect New Brunswick is too long to fit on the available trusses when it had to fit with other contiguous signs like the Exit 129 Advance guide signs on the mainline or the US 1 northbound Exit guide sign on the ramp.

Not as straightforward as you make it out to be.

roadman65

First of all, New Brunswick was used prior to the addition of the NB US 1 ramp at Exit 130.  So it could fit on the sign!  The supplemental could be removed it the destination became primary.

Secondly, Woodbridge can be used as a control point twice or even have it removed from the Exit 129 guide and have Staten Island replace it at its guide sign.  It would be Perth Amboy- Staten Island instead of Woodbridge- Perth Amboy.  Also as far as having a sign on a X Next Exit sign and then on the guide sign for the mentioned exit, it is done in many places.  Plus both exits for US 1 and  US 378 near Lexington, SC on I-20 both use West Columbia and Lexington as control points.  Heck look further south on the GSP!  Both Brick and Lakewood are used on Exits 91, 89, and 88.  That is three exits with the same guide (soon to be two as GSP is currently making Exits 88 and 89 into one interchange) that is doing what you think cannot be done.

Finally control cities do not have to be well known or famous either.   Lots of places are on exit guides that are not even on maps.  Avenel is the first town north on US 1 from Exit 130.  Though part of Woodbridge as Iselin is previously at Exit 131, it still is like its own entity.

It is straight forward as it is already in practice.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Pete from Boston


Quote from: odditude on November 09, 2014, 06:44:29 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on November 09, 2014, 05:30:06 PM
Do people really take US-1 all the way to Trenton, or Newark for that matter, from Exit 130 on the Parkway? I would think they would take the Turnpike for the former. For the latter, I suppose if they missed all those exits on the Parkway further north, they could use Exit 130 to make a U-Turn
All the time. I live outside Trenton, and when heading northbound it's only up to traffic whether the right way to go is Route 1 or 195 to the Turnpike.

I'll see your Trenton and raise you a Philly.  This was the free alternative to the Turnpike when I lived in NJ.  I wouldn't sign for Philly this way, but Trenton for sure.

Zeffy

Apart from a few annoying areas on US 1, it definitely isn't the worst road to use to get places. If I'm heading south towards Trenton, it takes me about 25 minutes or so to get to the I-95/I-295 interchange, and considering it isn't tolled, I'm not too angry with it either. The only quips I have with US 1 is the right lane endings where people speed up to get ahead of everyone nearly causing a wreck.

The control cities for US 1 are fine on the Parkway. The same two control cities are used at the US 1 interchange with NJ 18 in New Brunswick as well. Plus, US 1 both enter these cities fully, and in Trenton's case, it is the only full-freeway within the actual city itself. People can also use it to cross back into Pennsylvania if they heading south anyway.
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

roadman65

Quote from: Zeffy on November 10, 2014, 10:22:22 AM
Apart from a few annoying areas on US 1, it definitely isn't the worst road to use to get places. If I'm heading south towards Trenton, it takes me about 25 minutes or so to get to the I-95/I-295 interchange, and considering it isn't tolled, I'm not too angry with it either. The only quips I have with US 1 is the right lane endings where people speed up to get ahead of everyone nearly causing a wreck.

The control cities for US 1 are fine on the Parkway. The same two control cities are used at the US 1 interchange with NJ 18 in New Brunswick as well. Plus, US 1 both enter these cities fully, and in Trenton's case, it is the only full-freeway within the actual city itself. People can also use it to cross back into Pennsylvania if they heading south anyway.
Do not forget I-287 uses both Newark and Trenton as well as many side streets.  Woodbridge Center Drive also uses both.

I do think for regional freeways more local points should be used.  Yes US 1 does enter Newark, but also does the GSP.   I am more in favor of signing the GSP from US 1 for Newark like it was originally before the 130 NB ramp was added back in the 90's as many use the free section of the GSP to avoid the lights on US 1 in Woodbridge, Rahway, Linden, and Elizabeth by using it and US 22 together.  It makes sense to sign it that way, but the GSP SB should not use a place that someone has already been.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Don'tKnowYet

Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2014, 08:56:23 AM
First of all, New Brunswick was used prior to the addition of the NB US 1 ramp at Exit 130.  So it could fit on the sign!  The supplemental could be removed it the destination became primary.


Enlighten me.  How would New Brunswick fit on this sign:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5541583,-74.3183185,3a,75y,160.74h,87.75t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sJXIggCh8OAvIeW2oR0Ao5A!2e0

Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2014, 08:56:23 AM
Heck look further south on the GSP!  Both Brick and Lakewood are used on Exits 91, 89, and 88.  That is three exits with the same guide (soon to be two as GSP is currently making Exits 88 and 89 into one interchange) that is doing what you think cannot be done.

This is being corrected as I understand it.  A wrong being righted.

Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2014, 08:56:23 AM
Finally control cities do not have to be well known or famous either.   Lots of places are on exit guides that are not even on maps. 

You do know the BIG difference between a control city/point and a destination?

Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2014, 08:56:23 AM
It is straight forward as it is already in practice.

Disagree.  Jut because you see in South Carolina or Battleboro, NC doesn't mean it is correct practice.

PHLBOS

#135
Quote from: Don'tKnowYet on November 10, 2014, 10:42:28 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2014, 08:56:23 AM
First of all, New Brunswick was used prior to the addition of the NB US 1 ramp at Exit 130.  So it could fit on the sign!  The supplemental could be removed it the destination became primary.


Enlighten me.  How would New Brunswick fit on this sign:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5541583,-74.3183185,3a,75y,160.74h,87.75t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sJXIggCh8OAvIeW2oR0Ao5A!2e0
That particular BGS was added when the ramp was modified.  Roadman65 was referring to the approach & exit BGS (many of them have since been replaced and/or being replaced) prior to the location shown. 

The previous message on those BGS' originally read:

EXIT 129 130
1 SOUTH
New Brunswick
Trenton


As far as the one in the pic being modified; that 1 SOUTH Trenton panel would have to be replaced with one that could use a 2-line listing for New Brunswick to keep the sign width in check.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

Roadgeek Adam

That would be amazing if US 1 was Exit 129, because I'd be one of millions who misread that as a 130.  :wave:
Adam Seth Moss
M.A. History, Western Illinois University 2015-17
B.A. History, Montclair State University 2013-15
A.A. History & Education - Middlesex (County) College 2009-13

PHLBOS

Quote from: Roadgeek Adam on November 10, 2014, 03:26:34 PM
That would be amazing if US 1 was Exit 129, because I'd be one of millions who misread that as a 130.  :wave:
That's what I get for typing too quick.  :)
My earlier post has since been corrected.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

storm2k

Quote from: PHLBOS on November 10, 2014, 11:37:02 AM
Quote from: Don'tKnowYet on November 10, 2014, 10:42:28 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2014, 08:56:23 AM
First of all, New Brunswick was used prior to the addition of the NB US 1 ramp at Exit 130.  So it could fit on the sign!  The supplemental could be removed it the destination became primary.


Enlighten me.  How would New Brunswick fit on this sign:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5541583,-74.3183185,3a,75y,160.74h,87.75t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sJXIggCh8OAvIeW2oR0Ao5A!2e0
That particular BGS was added when the ramp was modified.  Roadman65 was referring to the approach & exit BGS (many of them have since been replaced and/or being replaced) prior to the location shown. 

The previous message on those BGS' originally read:

EXIT 129 130
1 SOUTH
New Brunswick
Trenton


As far as the one in the pic being modified; that 1 SOUTH Trenton panel would have to be replaced with one that could use a 2-line listing for New Brunswick to keep the sign width in check.

It shan't be modified. They've had a ground mounted sign for New Brunswick as a secondary destination ever since they added the NB ramp in the early 90s. They just replaced it with a new one in this round of signage.

storm2k

Also, it looks like tonight is the night that Exit 88 goes bye-bye forever.

vdeane

Technically it's not going bye-bye, it's moving to a service road and getting a new number.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

roadman65

Quote from: Don'tKnowYet on November 10, 2014, 10:42:28 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2014, 08:56:23 AM
First of all, New Brunswick was used prior to the addition of the NB US 1 ramp at Exit 130.  So it could fit on the sign!  The supplemental could be removed it the destination became primary.


Enlighten me.  How would New Brunswick fit on this sign:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5541583,-74.3183185,3a,75y,160.74h,87.75t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sJXIggCh8OAvIeW2oR0Ao5A!2e0

Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2014, 08:56:23 AM
Heck look further south on the GSP!  Both Brick and Lakewood are used on Exits 91, 89, and 88.  That is three exits with the same guide (soon to be two as GSP is currently making Exits 88 and 89 into one interchange) that is doing what you think cannot be done.

This is being corrected as I understand it.  A wrong being righted.

Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2014, 08:56:23 AM
Finally control cities do not have to be well known or famous either.   Lots of places are on exit guides that are not even on maps. 

You do know the BIG difference between a control city/point and a destination?

Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2014, 08:56:23 AM
It is straight forward as it is already in practice.

Disagree.  Jut because you see in South Carolina or Battleboro, NC doesn't mean it is correct practice.

The New Brunswick was there on another sign as before Exit 130 was reconfigured, the current panel was not needed because only the SB Ramp was present.  Think a little, why would this current sign be there before if the sole purpose of the current sign is for the current situation?  The original Exit 130 sign was different and used both New Brunswick and Trenton as control cities for both.

Exit 88 and 87 are being combined, but not to correct the wrong you suggested.   There is no law saying that exits cannot be the same as far as control cities or points go.  Florida also has two exits once (or still has) two exits signed just for North Port on Interstate 75.  Being Florida would rather put up street names on supplemental signs and many roads have no route numbers, FDOT left a blank space on top of most signs for future shields to be added later.  It just so happened that former exits 33 and 34 both went to North Port and was signed just plain "North Port."

I see your point, but also others do not see our points either.  Sometimes the DOT engineers do not see things in color but black and white.  Heck one engineer on the NJ Turnpike once told me back in the 90's that I-95 exit numbering north of US 46 on the free section was the way it is now because it continues I-80's scheme even though it does not.  Anyone here can tell you (and our very own NE 2 would provide the website link to information regarding route exit numbers in NJ) that those are from the mileage of I-95 had the Somerset Freeway been built.

Anyway, signing for local points (or cities however you want to say it) was changed in many places.  The US 46 interchange for one used to have Hackensack/ Fort Lee instead of The Ridgefields and Palisades Park like it does now.  That was carbon copied from when the NJT ended at US 46 prior to 1971 when the section from US 46 to I-80 was opened and US 46 was the major east west route to connect the Turnpike with the GWB and points along I-80.  Remember the NJT was built even before I-80 in that part of the state, so Hackensack (the seat of Bergen) was prominent even back then.  It was only in the last twenty years that more local points were added even though Fort Lee for US 46 EB was misleading motorists to a degree as I-95 does go there and most of the time quicker.

I am not saying that Newark and Trenton should not be used, but it is in many places on freeway signs for roads shadowing interstates or toll roads to use more local points.  Even US 22 on I-287 has New York City for the EB Exit 14 even when I-78 was only signed for Newark.  That one is in unison with other road signs that use New York for control cities, which I can see the need to sign it on I-287, but really being it was carbon copied from before I-78 was completed I would think that now if engineers had to come up with a from scratch sign assembly as if that I-287 was brand new, it would be either Green Brook or North Plainfield for EB US 22 just like Franklin Park is for NJ 208 several miles to the north where I believe that either Fair Lawn or Parmamus is used on other EB NJ 208 signs in the area.

Bottom line the MUTCD does not cover everything and there is no set rules for how many times a city can be used on exit signing or else multiple city exits on interstates would only sign one exit for the city even if there are five.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Roadrunner75

Quote from: storm2k on November 10, 2014, 05:48:40 PM
Also, it looks like tonight is the night that Exit 88 goes bye-bye forever.
Going NB this morning, I could see that the SB BGSs for exit 89 now have the Route 70 shields uncovered, so I assume everything was completed last night to close off 88.  I look forward to some good entertainment tonight going home, with people crawling in the right lane looking for their missing exit.


bzakharin

Quote from: Zeffy on November 10, 2014, 10:22:22 AM
Apart from a few annoying areas on US 1, it definitely isn't the worst road to use to get places. If I'm heading south towards Trenton, it takes me about 25 minutes or so to get to the I-95/I-295 interchange, and considering it isn't tolled, I'm not too angry with it either. The only quips I have with US 1 is the right lane endings where people speed up to get ahead of everyone nearly causing a wreck.

The control cities for US 1 are fine on the Parkway. The same two control cities are used at the US 1 interchange with NJ 18 in New Brunswick as well. Plus, US 1 both enter these cities fully, and in Trenton's case, it is the only full-freeway within the actual city itself. People can also use it to cross back into Pennsylvania if they heading south anyway.

When I lived in Edison 5 years ago, I'd avoid US 1 like the plague even for local trips in the middle of the day, due to its always being congested. I did take it all the way from I 295 on occasion, but only Sunday nights when the infamous 6 to 8A congestion on the Turnpike required it.

storm2k

So 131 is now becoming 132. Saw a new BGS sign complete with a yellow "Formerly 131" tab on it. So 131 becomes 132 and SB 131A will likely become 131 since there isn't a 131B southbound.

Pete from Boston


Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2014, 10:42:03 PMAnyway, signing for local points (or cities however you want to say it) was changed in many places.  The US 46 interchange for one used to have Hackensack/ Fort Lee instead of The Ridgefields and Palisades Park like it does now.  That was carbon copied from when the NJT ended at US 46 prior to 1971 when the section from US 46 to I-80 was opened and US 46 was the major east west route to connect the Turnpike with the GWB and points along I-80.  Remember the NJT was built even before I-80 in that part of the state, so Hackensack (the seat of Bergen) was prominent even back then.  It was only in the last twenty years that more local points were added even though Fort Lee for US 46 EB was misleading motorists to a degree as I-95 does go there and most of the time quicker.

The Ridgefields has been there at least 35 years.  I'd have them tell you themselves, but they're dining with the Caldwells tonight.



NJRoadfan

I guess the Oranges and the Amboys weren't invited again.

Roadrunner75

New exit 89B is open for business, and I tried it out for myself tonight.  Good shoehorn job last night turning 3 lanes into 4 + Jersey barrier in a tight space.  I noticed some guy stopped partially in the left lane of the mainline just opposite the old 88 - hopefully a breakdown and not some idiot trying to figure out where the exit went. 

mtantillo

Nah, but the Apples and Amgirls were :)

roadman65

Quote from: Pete from Boston on November 11, 2014, 08:46:14 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on November 10, 2014, 10:42:03 PMAnyway, signing for local points (or cities however you want to say it) was changed in many places.  The US 46 interchange for one used to have Hackensack/ Fort Lee instead of The Ridgefields and Palisades Park like it does now.  That was carbon copied from when the NJT ended at US 46 prior to 1971 when the section from US 46 to I-80 was opened and US 46 was the major east west route to connect the Turnpike with the GWB and points along I-80.  Remember the NJT was built even before I-80 in that part of the state, so Hackensack (the seat of Bergen) was prominent even back then.  It was only in the last twenty years that more local points were added even though Fort Lee for US 46 EB was misleading motorists to a degree as I-95 does go there and most of the time quicker.

The Ridgefields has been there at least 35 years.  I'd have them tell you themselves, but they're dining with the Caldwells tonight.



Northbound it was not there for 35 years.  The southbound lanes were not part of the original turnpike and those signs on that side were NJDOT when first erected as the Turnpike did not assume the maintenance on it until the mid 90's.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe



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