Black Friday: Should doorbuster sales be banned or restricted?

[J N Winkler]

Since today is Black Friday, I thought I would open a poll to gauge opinion about the extent to which doorbuster sales require regulation.  Stories of people queuing days in advance for doorbuster sales (a typical example this year being a 40" LCD screen for $180) have already been a staple of local news for years, and in past years doorbuster sales have indirectly caused death through crowd-control failures, such as the 2008 trampling death of a Wal-Mart employee in Valley Stream, New York (for which Wal-Mart has spent millions contesting a $7,000 OSHA fine).

Some background:  (1) Major retailers have attempted to reduce the hazards associated with doorbuster sales by promulgating guidance calling for formal crowd control (though this can be seen as an effort to stave off governmental regulation); (2) some states, notably Oklahoma, have laws designed to prevent predatory pricing which in effect ban doorbuster sales (in Oklahoma's case, this is a ban on discounting beyond wholesale cost plus 6%); and (3) some commentators have suggested economic regulation is justified on the basis that people should not have to spend hours of their time queuing for sale items which they have absolutely no realistic prospect of getting.

The poll options list isn't meant to be comprehensive--so please feel free to share thoughts about other possible remedies (as well as whether or not any intervention is justified).

[oscar]

One other option to throw in:  Require Black Friday to start on Friday.  While I'm disinclined to regulate at all, starting Black Friday on Thanksgiving evening (or earlier) is what rankles me the most, as disrupting traditional Thanksgiving family gatherings.

[xcellntbuy]

I recommend buying everything you can online.

[hbelkins]

Laws like the one cited for Oklahoma really bother me. Requiring retailers to sell items at a specific price level is the antithesis of the free market system. Why those laws have never been overturned on a constitutional basis is beyond me. Kentucky has such laws for cigarettes and I also think milk. My years of employment at the former Kentucky Revenue Cabinet really opened my eyes to just how much government interferes with capitalism and the free market, and helped shape my political opinions that I have today.

As to Oscar's point, Kmart has been open on Thanksgiving day for years, as have 24-hour-pharmacies such as Walgreen's. Convenience stores are also open, and employees in other industries (health care, law enforcement, toll collecting, pro football, etc.) are required to work. I've had to work on Thanksgiving, New Year's Eve and Day, Christmas Eve, etc. before.

[corco]

I find Black Friday to be absolutely deplorable, but I don't think it's right to regulate it. I have to believe these people that do insane things like go shopping at midnight or camp outside stores overnight and then pile over each other are doing it because they enjoy it for whatever reason, not just for the sales. It's a ridiculous tradition, but it's one that I think some people really love.

The only people I worry about are the employees- I think for these sorts of sales where service employees are required to work ridiculous hours and during holidays, there should be mandatory holiday pay or overtime or something so that those folks are at least better compensated when they can't spend time with their families. I've had to work holidays that are important in my family before - a lot of the year it works fine because different people care about different holidays and you can schedule around that. For instance, I hate working Thanksgiving because that's a big deal in my family but I couldn't care less about working the 4th of July, but I know people who feel the opposite way.  If you're having these massive sales you need everyone on, which prevents anybody from enjoying the holiday, and that's not right for the employees.

[NE2]

Requiring retailers to sell items at a specific price level is the antithesis of the free market system.

Obamunism?

Why those laws have never been overturned on a constitutional basis is beyond me.

Perhaps because the constitution doesn't say the crap you think it does.

[roadman]

I say let retailers sell items at any price they want, but require them to honor the price for that item, and have the item available in stock for sale at that price, for the entire Christmas shopping season (day after Thanksgiving to Christmas Eve).  If this happened, there would be no need for Black Friday at all.

Of course, the whole concept of Black Friday, and the growing issue of "Christmas creep" (starting the season a bit earlier every year) for that matter, is IMO a good example of how inefficient the retail industry really is.  If they adopted the practice of "set price for entire season", and restricted their Christmas sales season to the period between Thanksgiving and Christmas, I suspect they would actually attract more customers at lower expense, and thus make more money, then they are doing now.

Too bad big retailers follow the "monkey see, monkey do" attitude (i.e. X is opening at 4 AM, so I have to open at 3 AM).  And I bet that, come January, we'll start hearing the annual news reports of how poorly retailers did.  With a season that is now forced on us starting in early October (for no good or logical reason BTW), it's no wonder that these poor performance reports have become another annual tradition.

[Big John]

Another factor is that they are in semi-cahoots that they don't want you store hopping so they will all have the price only available in the same short window of time, oh and to sell other items while you are in the store anyway.  Somewhat like when hearing an ad on the radio, you soon find out that all the stations are playing ads at the same time.

[MVHighways]

they are in semi-cahoots that they don't want you store hopping

Those idiots who do that, they don't realize that some people want stuff they don't sell. I was in a Walmart on Wednesday and I did not see ANY indication of the iPad 4 or the iPad mini ANYWHERE., for example.

With a season that is now forced on us starting in early October (for no good or logical reason BTW), it's no wonder that these poor performance reports have become another annual tradition.

Quoting to this AND my previous statement, I heard a commercial earlier this month and just before HALLOWEEN that stated that November 2nd thru 54h or some date like that are "the only shopping days you need until Christmas" and "we have great gifts for everybody". I knew right off the bat that they do NOT sell any GOOD electronics, etc. PLUS they SHOULD realize--this goes for everybody--that you'll be holding onto these gifts for a LOOONNNGGG time.

[deathtopumpkins]

There's been some debate in Massachusetts lately over the fact that state law prohibits stores from opening on Thursday, November 22. Many major retailers planned on opening late Thursday night but have had to open after midnight in Mass, including Target, who posted this sign in MA stores:


I get the feeling Target's not really a fan of the law...

[broadhurst04]

I wonder if people realize what a "doorbuster" really is. Stores intentionally stock low quantities of these items. They advertise them heavily to stir up excitement among consumers in order to get them to spend their long weekend shopping and not camped out in front of the TV watching football. They're hoping that if you get to the store and the "doorbuster" item is sold out, you'll stay in the store anyway and buy something else at full price (or at a discount smaller than the doorbuster) just to be able to say the trip wasn't a total waste of time. If people were smarter about it, they wouldn't fall for it and end up risking their own lives or the lives of store employees.

[hbelkins]

There's been some debate in Massachusetts lately over the fact that state law prohibits stores from opening on Thursday, November 22. Many major retailers planned on opening late Thursday night but have had to open after midnight in Mass, including Target, who posted this sign in MA stores:


I get the feeling Target's not really a fan of the law...

So I guess that guy in the other thread really couldn't buy a Sunkist orange soda in Massachusetts on Thursday.

How widely does this law extend in the Masshole state? Are convenience stores with gas pumps allowed to be open? If not, I'd hate to be traveling in that state and need fuel.

[MVHighways]

There's been some debate in Massachusetts lately over the fact that state law prohibits stores from opening on Thursday, November 22. Many major retailers planned on opening late Thursday night but have had to open after midnight in Mass, including Target, who posted this sign in MA stores:


I get the feeling Target's not really a fan of the law...

Neither am I. I think it's dumb because in my opinion the MA government has essentially been running a dictatorship saying stores can't open on Thanksgiving and Christmas for 380 years. Yes, I think most stores should close on Thanksgiving. No, it should not be government run. It should have been repealed years ago but it is beyond me why they are still keeping a law from the Puritan and Pilgrim days.

So I guess that guy in the other thread really couldn't buy a Sunkist orange soda in Massachusetts on Thursday.

How widely does this law extend in the Masshole state? Are convenience stores with gas pumps allowed to be open? If not, I'd hate to be traveling in that state and need fuel.

A lot. Just about every store here was closed. And yes, it IS the Masshole state. Luckily my town borders the awesome New Hampshire

There is a Sears and JCPenney in the same mall close to me that VERY closely approach the NH/MA state line by INCHES--they are literally just barely in NH. In front of Sears you're not even off the sidewalk and you're in MA. Think of it. They had a battle over it during construction in the 1980s, which if the original plan went through, then this would leave at least half the mall shuttered.

Oh, and as for my orange soda, apparently I didn't realize that places like CVS were allowed to open because the one on MA Route 113 in Dracut was to my surprise OPEN when I was traveling up to Hudson, ==NEW HAMPSHIRE== for my family's Thanksgiving feast. I stopped in to get said orange soda and all things were resolved.

[Duke87]

I refuse to shop on Black Friday out of personal protest to the insanity and a general hatred of dealing with unnecessary crowds in general. But I don't see the need to introduce any sort of regulation that doesn't already exist since things seem to mostly handle themselves OK. No store wants to be the subject of bad press, so if something bad happens, you can bet they'll do something differently to prevent it from happening again next year without any regulatory body needing to tell them to.

[vdeane]

I think that something should be done to end the insanity but I can't think of anything that wouldn't be worse than what we have now without being overly specific.

[deathtopumpkins]

How widely does this law extend in the Masshole state? Are convenience stores with gas pumps allowed to be open? If not, I'd hate to be traveling in that state and need fuel.

No, convenience stores are not included in the law. At least neither of the gas stations in Ipswich, MA were closed on Thursday (though only one of them has a convenience store attached).



I don't agree with the law either, but eh, it doesn't really affect me since I, as usual, did not go shopping on Friday.

[Mr_Northside]

I just really hate the term "doorbusters" and how it's become a regular "word" the last couple of years.

If I ever decide to go to a "doorbuster",  I'm going with a baseball bat & maybe a cinder block, with the sole intention of unleashing a lot of pent up aggression on the door(s) of the place advertising that they're having "doorbusters".  I'd bust them doors up good.

Probably wouldn't buy any products though.

[cpzilliacus]

One other option to throw in:  Require Black Friday to start on Friday.  While I'm disinclined to regulate at all, starting Black Friday on Thanksgiving evening (or earlier) is what rankles me the most, as disrupting traditional Thanksgiving family gatherings.

That I agree with. 

I dislike so-called blue laws intensely (since not all people of faith observe Sunday as the Sabbath, I consider them to be a violation of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and an offense to our secular system of government).

Having said that, I think Thanksgiving Day should be a day when most businesses should be shut-down.  We don't have too many  days like that in the U.S., but Thanksgiving should be such a day.  At 1 minute past midnight on "black" Friday, businesses can do as they wish.

[deathtopumpkins]

One other option to throw in:  Require Black Friday to start on Friday.  While I'm disinclined to regulate at all, starting Black Friday on Thanksgiving evening (or earlier) is what rankles me the most, as disrupting traditional Thanksgiving family gatherings.

That I agree with. 

I dislike so-called blue laws intensely (since not all people of faith observe Sunday as the Sabbath, I consider them to be a violation of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and an offense to our secular system of government).

Having said that, I think Thanksgiving Day should be a day when most businesses should be shut-down.  We don't have too many  days like that in the U.S., but Thanksgiving should be such a day.  At 1 minute past midnight on "black" Friday, businesses can do as they wish.

Not everyone celebrates Thanksgiving though.

[florida]

Have there been any deaths reported? It's not a true Black Friday unless someone's squashed trying to pick up one of one newfangled electronics available at a discount (ha ha) retailer.

[kphoger]

the growing issue of "Christmas creep"

Grrrrr....  There needs to be a nastier term for 'Christmas creep', one that conveys my soul-wrenching contempt for the trend.  If I were in charge, Christmas and everything having to do with it (except possibly Jesus) would be prohibited until at least December 1.  One other thing that I dislike even more than 'Christmas creep' is that it comes to a complete halt on December 26; just when I'm finally in the mood for Christmas, and finally feel like listening to the songs on the radio, and finally want to wish people a merry Christmas–people turn off their lights, the radio goes back to normal programming, and people look at me weird when I say 'Merry Christmas'.  Haven't they heard of the 12 days of Christmas?

Celebrating the holiday by giving gifts has turned into a compulsory, arduous task at which many people shudder and shiver–and which now robs Thanksgiving of its 'spirit'.  It was recently put to me this way:  Just hours after we all take a moment to be thankful for what we have, we get up early and trample people in order to buy each other even more crap.

Having said all that, though, I'm not too keen on the government meddling in private enterprise, especially on a flimsy premise like keeping the customers safe from being trampled.  That would be akin to prohibiting the Bears from playing the Packers in the Super Bowl in order to keep people safe from rioting.

I dislike so-called blue laws intensely (since not all people of faith observe Sunday as the Sabbath, I consider them to be a violation of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and an offense to our secular system of government).

Having said that, I think Thanksgiving Day should be a day when most businesses should be shut-down.  We don't have too many  days like that in the U.S., but Thanksgiving should be such a day.  At 1 minute past midnight on "black" Friday, businesses can do as they wish.

I'm not entirely opposed to laws that require businesses to shut down on holidays; I guess I'm on the fence about it.  As a way of accepting a Sunday blue law, I could view Sundays as miniature weekly civic holidays:  just as Christmas is both a religious and a civic holiday, so might Sunday be.  Many nonreligious people, after all, still treat Sunday as a day of rest, and the case could be made that it is healthy for our society to take a 'break' on a regular basis.  I'm just playing devil's advocate here, and would be hesitant to actually broaden such laws.

Plus, changing the time and date of Black Friday only changes the time and date of the chaos.  If stores aren't allowed to have doorbuster sales on that Friday, then they'll just have them on Saturday instead.  If they're not allowed to have them for the whole holiday period, then they'll just have them before Thanksgiving instead.

[Scott5114]

Honestly, the only real way to curb Black Friday is to convince everyone to not participate in it. The most effective way would be for everyone scheduled on Black Friday to refuse to work. People forget in times like these that capitalism is supposed to work both ways; you should be able to "shop" for a better employer. Unfortunately, a lot of the people working Walmart-level jobs don't have the luxury of having enough money to risk getting fired for refusing to work that day. So the only solution is to convince shoppers to not participate. Unfortunately the America of the 21st century is not a country that is all that good at individual sacrifice for the greater good, so I am not really sure if that is doable.

[kphoger]

Honestly, the only real way to curb Black Friday is to convince everyone to not participate in it. The most effective way would be for everyone scheduled on Black Friday to refuse to work. People forget in times like these that capitalism is supposed to work both ways; you should be able to "shop" for a better employer. Unfortunately, a lot of the people working Walmart-level jobs don't have the luxury of having enough money to risk getting fired for refusing to work that day. So the only solution is to convince shoppers to not participate. Unfortunately the America of the 21st century is not a country that is all that good at individual sacrifice for the greater good, so I am not really sure if that is doable.

The funny thing is that we'd be asking people to 'sacrifice' by not spending money on other people.

[corco]

I wonder what percentage of Black Friday sales are actually given to other people as gifts

[Scott5114]

Probably not very much. How many people do you know gifting each other big screen TVs?