The universe according to MMM

[kkt]

The crew were not working 24 or even 16 hours a day.  Barring an alert, they had some off hours every day.  Time off is important for mental health.

Wesley was portrayed as under 18 in most of TNG, wasn't he?  Then I wouldn't expect him to be having sex, especially not with the adult members of the crew.  Maybe a girlfriend his own age would have improved his attitude and made him less of a pest...

Okay, just for fun, think about the other TV shows that are aimed at least in part at over-18 viewers.  Don't pretty much all of them have at least some characters in relationships?  A lot of them have those relationships changing over time?  It's an important part of life and there's no reason to think characters would lack it any more than they wouldn't eat.

I'm dating myself, but MASH had Hawkeye hooking up with random never-seen-again nurses every couple of episodes it seemed like, less often in later seasons.  Frank and Margaret Hoolihan were an item for, um, 5 seasons I think, then Frank left the series and Margaret had a marriage that broke up and then couple of other shorter-term relationships.  Col. Blake had an ongoing relationship with one of the nurses even though he had a wife and kids back home.  Col. Potter had what you might call emotional affairs a couple of times in which they stopped short of infidelity.  Charles Winchester had a couple of single-episode affairs.  BJ had one single-episode affair and one emotional affair even though he had a wife and kids back home.

You get the same sort of thing in most shows, unless they're written for and about kids under 18.

corny middle-school insulting names for the shows cheerfully ignored.

[Takumi]

^ Winchester, like Hawkeye, wasn't married.

[Max Rockatansky]

I feel as though I should up-post my thoughts on Wesley Crusher:

[Max Rockatansky]

You do know that in military organizations that people have sex right?  I'd speculate they probably have more sex (certainly more alcohol) than the average person.  What exactly about Star Fleet doesn't scream military-like organization?

[brad2971]

The crew were not working 24 or even 16 hours a day.  Barring an alert, they had some off hours every day.  Time off is important for mental health.

Wesley was portrayed as under 18 in most of TNG, wasn't he?  Then I wouldn't expect him to be having sex, especially not with the adult members of the crew.  Maybe a girlfriend his own age would have improved his attitude and made him less of a pest...

Okay, just for fun, think about the other TV shows that are aimed at least in part at over-18 viewers.  Don't pretty much all of them have at least some characters in relationships?  A lot of them have those relationships changing over time?  It's an important part of life and there's no reason to think characters would lack it any more than they wouldn't eat.

I'm dating myself, but MASH had Hawkeye hooking up with random never-seen-again nurses every couple of episodes it seemed like, less often in later seasons.  Frank and Margaret Hoolihan were an item for, um, 5 seasons I think, then Frank left the series and Margaret had a marriage that broke up and then couple of other shorter-term relationships.  Col. Blake had an ongoing relationship with one of the nurses even though he had a wife and kids back home.  Col. Potter had what you might call emotional affairs a couple of times in which they stopped short of infidelity.  Charles Winchester had a couple of single-episode affairs.  BJ had one single-episode affair and one emotional affair even though he had a wife and kids back home.

You get the same sort of thing in most shows, unless they're written for and about kids under 18.

corny middle-school insulting names for the shows cheerfully ignored.

If ever there was a show that changed with the times in real-time, one could do a lot worse than binge-watching the entire run of MASH episodes. One should never even try to claim that MASH in 1972 and MASH in 1982 were the same type of show.

[Evan_Th]

It always seemed more like 16 hours shifts and 8 hours of downtime with the time frames given in many episodes.

How much downtime between episodes, though?

I would think there'd be a much higher demand for the holodecks/10 forward in the galaxy class ships with 1000 people, if over 600 were free at any given time. In some episodes they appear to be working around the clock for days, but they seem unaffected by it.

Well yes!  But then, that's a problem with pretty much the whole Federation.  Maybe 90% of the Federation's population is spending all the time they can in holodecks, so the only people in Starfleet are the ones self-selected to be less interested than average?

[MultiMillionMiler]

Unless the most advanced star trek technology is only available on starships. I mean since there's no money in that century, most people would probably have a cushy life in their house equipped with holodecks and replicators, so why bother risking that utopia by living on a battleship. It's not like the lower decks are involved in the main missions, I wonder if they even know what's going on half the time, like when they have gone back in time, or they are trying to stop a warp core overload..etc, so they aren't getting the thrill of exploration either.

[kkt]

^ Winchester, like Hawkeye, wasn't married.

Did I say he was?

[triplemultiplex]

It's not like the lower decks are involved in the main missions, I wonder if they even know what's going on half the time, like when they have gone back in time, or they are trying to stop a warp core overload..etc, so they aren't getting the thrill of exploration either.

Someone should make a show about that.



So let's recap Triple-M's ideal Star Trek: no politics, no relationships, no aliens that are too weird by human standards, and 100% consistency with the technobabble.  Sounds boring.

[abefroman329]

Hell the rivalry between The Federation and the Klingons is a clear Cold War allegory.

And the fact that the Enterprise of ST:TNG had a Klingon security officer was a comment on the post-Cold War era.

But yeah, it's always entertaining to see people complain about the latest work in the Star Trek universe being "woke," when the show has been "woke" from the start.

Not that one can't be clumsy about it and come off heavy-handed, which Trek occasionally does.

And The Orville does all the goddamned time.

[Evan_Th]

So let's recap Triple-M's ideal Star Trek: no politics, no relationships, no aliens that are too weird by human standards, and 100% consistency with the technobabble.  Sounds boring.

I'm with at least half of that, though I'm happy with politics.

[kkt]

How alien can they really be if they have to be just like humans?
People on earth are typically not even attracted to other mammals, and we share lots more DNA with them than we would with some alien species from another solar system...

[Max Rockatansky]

How alien can they really be if they have to be just like humans?
People on earth are typically not even attracted to other mammals, and we share lots more DNA with them than we would with some alien species from another solar system...

Isn't there something in the deep lore of Star Trek regarding some ancient humanoid race seeding similar biology throughout the universe?

[kphoger]

How alien can they really be if they have to be just like humans?

One reasonable assumption about alien life is that, for it to be a species similar enough to humans to make a character-based show on, it must exist within an environment of lifeform diversity:  the evolutionary processes required to produce such a complex organism must have also produced other, dissimilar organisms too.  But perhaps none of them would even be carbon-based...

Isn't there something in the deep lore of Star Trek regarding some ancient humanoid race seeding similar biology throughout the universe?

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Chase_(episode)#Act_Five

[Scott5114]

The whole point of science fiction and Star Trek in particular is to be able to make allegories to present-day conditions in a fantastical way, so that said conditions can be viewed "from the outside" and thought about in a new way.

If you think an alien race that discriminates based on which half of their face is white and which half is black is being pretty silly, then the next time you hear about a human discriminating based on skin tone you might stop and think whether they're being just as silly.

If you had Star Trek without politics then that wouldn't be Star Trek anymore.

Isn't there something in the deep lore of Star Trek regarding some ancient humanoid race seeding similar biology throughout the universe?

Yeah, some universal life force called the B'Udjet.

[triplemultiplex]

The Chase revealed a substantial, profound reality about the Star Trek Universe.
And it was immediately forgotten by everyone.  Never comes up again.

Which is so odd because shouldn't that be a seismic shift in every society in the Milky Way?  One moment between the Romulin captain and Picard, and then it's back to the status quo of plotting against one another.

Also couldn't help but notice how much the ancient alien in the hologram looks like a Founder.  I'm pretty sure it's even the same actress who played the head Alpha Quadrant changling during the Dominion War.

[kphoger]

there was a next generation episode that dealt with this, think it was called "the chase" or something

You mean the episode I linked to literally two posts before yours?

[MultiMillionMiler]

oops I missed it.

One other criticism I give of star trek is not the fact that they never zoom in closer on the panels when the crew is doing something. My criticism is that when they do, they literally will just put a few random 3 digit numbers next to control buttons. Like, if you are going to deliberately get a good shot, At least put something realistic like "override" or "shield modulation" or "power distribution", "processor core 2", "internal scan", "emergency bulkhead", "plasma conduit 5"..etc, and not just 347, 447, 3829..etc. Put some menus on the helms station that say "warp field" "course coordinates", "impulse speed"..etc, with submenus when tapped, not just the same exact display on every console with screens that don't change at all when you tap them. I mean they could have at least tried.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

How alien can they really be if they have to be just like humans?
People on earth are typically not even attracted to other mammals, and we share lots more DNA with them than we would with some alien species from another solar system...

Isn't there something in the deep lore of Star Trek regarding some ancient humanoid race seeding similar biology throughout the universe?

There was also an episode of Voyager that had an alien scientist trying to prove his species was related to humans, which is rejected by his government, and when they capture and threaten to destroy Voyager he is forced to "recant" his findings in order to save the ship and crew. Of course, the aliens' leader then sternly warns Janeway that they had better not meet again, and they don't.

[MultiMillionMiler]

It's not like the lower decks are involved in the main missions, I wonder if they even know what's going on half the time, like when they have gone back in time, or they are trying to stop a warp core overload..etc, so they aren't getting the thrill of exploration either.

Someone should make a show about that.



So let's recap Triple-M's ideal Star Trek: no politics, no relationships, no aliens that are too weird by human standards, and 100% consistency with the technobabble.  Sounds boring.

Yes, there is no need for that much sex in a science fiction show. It is overdone in all the series. Politics are fine as long as it's less than 10% of episodes. I don't care how weird the aliens are. Star Fleet can't decide for a day straight whether it wants to be an exploration organization or a military one, and all that shows is that Q was right from the beginning, humans didn't change at all for the better in 340 years, if anything, they're worse.

[kkt]

The Chase revealed a substantial, profound reality about the Star Trek Universe.
And it was immediately forgotten by everyone.  Never comes up again.

Which is so odd because shouldn't that be a seismic shift in every society in the Milky Way?  One moment between the Romulin captain and Picard, and then it's back to the status quo of plotting against one another.

Yeah, that's episodic TV for you.  Events that should change a character's life or entire society instead have no lasting effect and are never referred to again.

It's not like the lower decks are involved in the main missions, I wonder if they even know what's going on half the time, like when they have gone back in time, or they are trying to stop a warp core overload..etc, so they aren't getting the thrill of exploration either.

Someone should make a show about that.



So let's recap Triple-M's ideal Star Trek: no politics, no relationships, no aliens that are too weird by human standards, and 100% consistency with the technobabble.  Sounds boring.

Yes, there is no need for that much sex in a science fiction show. It is overdone in all the series. Politics are fine as long as it's less than 10% of episodes. I don't care how weird the aliens are. Star Fleet can't decide for a day straight whether it wants to be an exploration organization or a military one, and all that shows is that Q was right from the beginning, humans didn't change at all for the better in 340 years, if anything, they're worse.

Why does being a science fiction show mean there should be less sex?  They don't seem connected to me.  And I don't see why that makes them worse.  Sex is healthy.

It's quite possible for the same organization be both a military and explorers.  British Navy, 1815 (the end of the Napoleonic Wars) to 1914 had no large enemy to fight.  Instead they suppressed the slave trade, explored, and made charts.

[Max Rockatansky]

I know that Star Fleet is often cited not to be a military organization in Star Trek media, but they clearly are.  I don't get how anyone with even a cursory knowledge of an actual Navy can't see the connections in Star Fleet. 

[kphoger]

Why does being a science fiction show mean there should be less sex?  They don't seem connected to me.  And I don't see why that makes them worse.  Sex is healthy.

It can make a show less science-fiction-y, though.  If you're a diehard science fiction fan, then you're probably not watching the show in order to see the same romantic escapades you might get from watching Grey's Anatomy.  You're watching it for the nerdy science and tech stuff, more likely.

I mean, I'm much more into stuff like Lord of the Rings than stuff like Star Trek, but I think the value of LotR would be diminished by having any more romantic bits than it already does–which is almost none, and even what it does have is borderline too much in my opinion.

For a show that purports to be "serious" science fiction, all that extra romance and sex and such should be kept to a minimum.  It's not necessarily bad for a sci-fi show to have that, but at that point it's less sci-fi and more like everything else.

[kphoger]

Well if you're trying to do no-nut-november and trying to distract yourself with a science fiction show, the excessive sex and romance makes it harder.

Makes what harder?

[Max Rockatansky]

Personally I've never found sex to be something that has caused me excessive stress or had addicting qualities.  Given MMM has never served in the military much less worked for the DOD I'm curious how he's coming up with enlisted personnel having fetish disorder issues.  To me a lot of this sounds like a poor understanding of how most normal people work (ironic considering the major listed).