I swear there's a thread about this somewhere, but for the life of me, I can't get the search terms right to track it down. I just booked a rental car for a trip where I'll be in Scotland next summer. I've never driven in an LHT country before, the only countries I've driven in internationally being Canada, Iceland, and the Philippines. Anything stick out for anyone that has driven in the UK or elsewhere that is beyond "you just have to get used to it"?
I haven't personally driven a RHD vehicle before, but I've heard it's really easy to reach for the turn signal and (a) there's no stalk there at all or (b) you turn on the windshield wipers instead.
Also, did you reserve a manual or automatic? I've done shifting from the passenger side of a vehicle plenty of times here in the USA, but that can take some getting used to.
What I do remember being really tough in England was for the driver of our LHD bus to find a place to legally park and let passengers out–because the door emptied out into traffic while in England. That doesn't apply to you, of course...
I sadly don't drive a stick really well here, so definitely reserved an automatic. I rented a relatively small car to make parking easier. And, I rented from the airport (in Glasgow despite me starting my trip in Edinburgh) because I won't have to drive much in larger towns. I'm thinking we'll go from Glasgow to the Isle of Skye and hang out mostly there.
I suppose you just follow the signage and road markings, as well as what the other vehicles' drivers are doing. But I only had four hours' experience in a place that was almost entirely two-lane roads and low speed limits.
I think the only tricky parts were: remembering that left turn movements are easier, and now right turns are the one which require a little concentration. That, and getting back into the vehicle on the correct side...
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 21, 2022, 10:01:38 PMI swear there's a thread about this somewhere, but for the life of me, I can't get the search terms right to track it down. I just booked a rental car for a trip where I'll be in Scotland next summer. I've never driven in an LHT country before, the only countries I've driven in internationally being Canada, Iceland, and the Philippines. Anything stick out for anyone that has driven in the UK or elsewhere that is beyond "you just have to get used to it"?
I have driven in the UK and Ireland in vehicles equipped with automatics (center-column shifters in all cases). I'd say the transition from RHT in LHD (North America) to LHT in RHD (British Isles) is pretty easy for an alert and attentive driver, so far as vehicles are concerned. The more difficult adjustments have to do with signing and typical streetscapes. There are some technicalities to signing, especially in the UK, that are not intuitive to Americans (e.g., speed limits based on lamp column spacing, or different types of 20 limits such that you see signs saying "End 20 zone. Speed limit 20"). And although engineering standards for unit lane width and so on are very similar to those used in the US, streets and roads are just narrower in general, so you have to be much more alert to the need to alternate with oncoming vehicles. About 99% of the public road mileage in the UK is paved for dust suppression, but the proportion that has been engineered in the modern sense is much smaller.
Scotland in particular used to be full of long-distance single-lane A-roads, especially in the Highlands. I think some of them may even have had primary route status.
It is quite common for rural roads to have turf dikes at their edges. Roads so equipped tend also to have narrow ditches on either side that begin about a foot behind the edge and are hidden by vegetation. You don't want to pull off (e.g., to take a picture) and have one of the wheels drop into the ditch. The underside of the car will then be beached on the verge, and though it likely won't be damaged, you will need help to get all four wheels back on terra firma.
The traffic engineering community in the UK does not believe in advisory speed signing for curves. (The methods we use in the US, such as the ball bank test, are not considered reliable.) Thus, while there is a prescribed sign for advisory speeds, it is used far less frequently than in the US. Driving on rural single carriageways that have not been developed to WS2 standards (similar to Super Twos in the US) is thus a bit like driving in Montana, where MDT is similarly sparing with advisory speed signing.
I recommend reviewing the Highway Code (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code) and
Know Your Traffic Signs (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/know-your-traffic-signs) before you go.
Quote from: kphoger on October 21, 2022, 10:21:52 PMI haven't personally driven a RHD vehicle before, but I've heard it's really easy to reach for the turn signal and (a) there's no stalk there at all or (b) you turn on the windshield wipers instead.
This has never been an issue for me in the UK. I recall (and a check of current Vauxhall ad copy seems to confirm) that controls for the turn signals and wipers are on the same sides of the steering column as in the US. There are other LHT/RHD jurisdictions where they are reversed.
Quote from: formulanone on October 21, 2022, 10:59:22 PMI think the only tricky parts were: remembering that left turn movements are easier, and now right turns are the one which require a little concentration. That, and getting back into the vehicle on the correct side...
When I was driving, I really struggled to remember to go for what would be the passenger side in the US.
On a more serious and safety-critical note, I found turns out of driveways into single-carriageway roads were dangerous, especially when recently arrived from a country with a different circulation rule. On my first day driving in the UK, I made the same mistake Anne Sacoolas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Harry_Dunn) did--I turned right out of a driveway into the right lane--though I self-corrected in fairly quick order.
I gotta admit, when I saw the thread title, I thought it referred to places throughout the US where, for one reason or another, people find themselves driving on the left (such as that section of I-5 north of LA where the two carriageways swap sides for a few miles).
Just to add: the adaptation that took the longest for me was for the inside rearview mirror not to feel incorrectly adjusted. I think it was an eye dominance issue.
When I flew to NZ, I got in the car, shifted it in reverse, got out of the lot (to show that I knew what I was doing so they wouldn't take the car back), and then was like "o KAY so i'm on the left now... now what" and I immediately saw old signs and had to photo them and "o KAY so i'm taking photos while left driving" and after an hour I just settled into it.
(I made 3 mistakes that trip - all 3 were pulling out of an overlook and going right before realizing my mistake. Fortunately no remote driving due to gas prices so no one came across me doing that.)
So, funny enough, my only experience driving on the left is actually in the United States. The Virgin Islands, specifically, where they drive on the left but the cars are all US-spec so as far as the vehicle itself is concerned everything is exactly where you're used to it being.
Adapting to that situation was very quick and easy and I found myself driving on the wrong side of the road exactly zero times, though I did have to wait an extra half second while navigating my first couple right turns to make sure I was doing the right thing.
The most interesting thing I found is that my way of handling this mentally was to simply swap the definitions of left and right in my head and then everything else clicked into place no problem. At least for handling driving - it made talking to other people a little confusing since I'd keep saying "left" when I meant right and vice versa. Indeed, even now, in the prior paragraph I almost typed "my first couple left turns" and had to catch myself and correct it. No matter where I am or what road I am looking at, I will always think of a "left turn" as being one which goes in the direction that crosses oncoming traffic and a "right turn" as being one which goes in the direction that does not.
What I haven't ever done is operated a RHD vehicle, so I can't speak to that from experience, but I imagine it would be more challenging.
Quote from: Duke87 on October 22, 2022, 01:23:17 AMWhat I haven't ever done is operated a RHD vehicle, so I can't speak to that from experience, but I imagine it would be more challenging.
The inside mirror issue aside, it isn't if it's an automatic. If it is a manual, you are changing the hand you shift with (often from dominant to non-dominant or vice versa), and I believe the shift gating is also mirrored.
The LHT/LHD scenario is part of the reason Sweden ultimately had Dagen H. The equivalent for Britons visiting the European continent, RHT/RHD, involves some advance preparation, such as buying transparent decals for the headlamps so that the beams will shine in the correct direction on the other side of the Channel.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 22, 2022, 12:17:09 AM
Just to add: the adaptation that took the longest for me was for the inside rearview mirror not to feel incorrectly adjusted. I think it was an eye dominance issue.
My primary issue has been balance: I constantly felt like the car had weight on the wrong side ... like I was going to tip over. Such an odd feeling. Got used to it pretty quick, though the feeling of "I'm driving in the passenger seat" took a bit longer to overcome.
First time I ever drove on the left was on the A456 A456 in Birmingham, England. Then several more times throughout the road trip we were doing.
I'm moving to Japan literally in like three days, and I'll be there for a year or two. So, I'll come back to this thread in a couple weeks and report back on my initial thoughts after having not done it for eight years.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 21, 2022, 11:51:07 PM
There are some technicalities to signing, especially in the UK, that are not intuitive to Americans (e.g., speed limits based on lamp column spacing, or different types of 20 limits such that you see signs saying "End 20 zone. Speed limit 20").
Interesting. Is that like the difference between linear (specific to a section of road) or area (all roads in a given area, usually the statewide or municipal default) speed limits in NY, or is it something else?
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2021, 05:03:11 PM
I found driving on the left to be no big deal on the whole. The two tricky things: Muscle memory when you check the rearview mirror because you're used to it being on the right instead of the left, and maneuvering in tighter spaces (like indoor car parks) requires caution because the bulk of the car is to your left, rather than to your right. My father damaged the left-side tyres in his rental car in Scotland because he was driving too far to the left–I assume being used to sitting at a certain place in the lane was throwing him off. One solution to that: Tilt the left-side (passenger-side) mirror down and inwards so you can check how far left you are in the lane.
I suggest looking at the Highway Code online to understand the rules about using your blinkers at roundabouts and to understand some of the road signs, such as if you see a chicane (which shouldn't be very often). Roundabouts are not a nuisance except when you encounter chained mini-roundabouts (hopefully you won't). Those are a nuisance. The key principle: Each mini-roundabout in the chain operates as a separate roundabout with its own give-way requirements.
Traffic lights have a combined red-yellow cycle. When you see that, it means the light is about to turn green. Be prepared to go promptly–many Brits will start moving as the red-yellow is on. I wish we had that in North America.
The biggest thing that stands out in my mind is the prevalence of "Give Way" (Yield) signs where stop signs are used in the USA. The British theory comes across as "we assume you know what to do and can be trusted to do it," so you often don't have to stop unless you're required to do so because of other traffic. The American theory is to assume you don't know what to do and can't be trusted anyway, so we'll require you to stop every time in case there might be another car. I much preferred the British way. One thing to know, however, is that the Brits are good about knowing who is entitled to the right-of-way and taking it when it is theirs–it can seem a bit more aggressive to Americans who are used to constantly stopping at stop signs.
I assume you won't be driving on any single-track roads because those tend to be in isolated areas. If you will be, check the Highway Code to learn how to use passing places properly.
Speed cameras are common. They also have something called "average speed check" in work zones. This insidious system uses multiple cameras some distance apart. Each one reads your number plate. If you passed them too quickly, you get a ticket. (The idea is to combat the obvious tendency to slow down past the camera, then speed back up.) If you see "average speed check," do the speed limit.
Quote from: vdeane on October 22, 2022, 05:29:08 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on October 21, 2022, 11:51:07 PMThere are some technicalities to signing, especially in the UK, that are not intuitive to Americans (e.g., speed limits based on lamp column spacing, or different types of 20 limits such that you see signs saying "End 20 zone. Speed limit 20").
Interesting. Is that like the difference between linear (specific to a section of road) or area (all roads in a given area, usually the statewide or municipal default) speed limits in NY, or is it something else?
Yes--it's very similar (at least conceptually) to what NY does. Here the distinction is between 20 zones, which are required to have design features (humps, tight geometry, etc.) so that the limit is self-enforcing, and 20 limits created on a linear basis. Thus, a sign saying "20 zone ends. Speed limit 20" essentially means the legal basis for the current limit has changed even though the limit itself has not.
All of this said, Wales is (controversially) about to adopt 20 as the default speed limit in urban areas (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-62020427).
Signing also differs in that you are expected to know the national speed limits that apply to your class of vehicle. There are no reminder signs along the lines of "State Speed Limit 55" or "Maximum Speed 55." This means that when you turn from one road to another and the NSL applies to both, you will not (with some rare exceptions) see any speed limit signing, even if the limit is numerically different (e.g., turning from a single carriageway with NSL of 60 onto a dual carriageway with NSL of 70).
On the other hand, if the speed limit does change when you turn from one road to another and the new limit is not NSL--e.g., from a single-carriageway road with NSL of 60 to a dual carriageway with a special speed limit of 50--then you will see a 50 sign just before the turn, in the neck of the junction, since it is positioned to "guard" the approach to the dual carriageway. It will typically be mounted back to back on the same post as a sign (in this example, a NSL roundel) for traffic turning in the opposite direction. The usual American approach of leaving the new speed limit a mystery to the driver until he or she gets a few hundred yards (or even longer) down the new road is considered anathema in Britain.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 22, 2022, 12:47:17 PMI'm moving to Japan literally in like three days, and I'll be there for a year or two. So, I'll come back to this thread in a couple weeks and report back on my initial thoughts after having not done it for eight years.
Best of luck with the move!
Are the wiper and turn signal stalks reversed? I think that is true for at least one of the Asian countries with LHT/RHD (can't remember whether it is Japan or Thailand).
Quote from: jakeroot on October 22, 2022, 12:47:17 PMMy primary issue has been balance: I constantly felt like the car had weight on the wrong side ... like I was going to tip over. Such an odd feeling. Got used to it pretty quick, though the feeling of "I'm driving in the passenger seat" took a bit longer to overcome.
I wonder if this feeling was magnified by high crossfall. The UK has traditionally used 2.5% pretty much everywhere, while the US tends to use 1.5%-2% and go higher in areas that see high-intensity rainfall. (Some states, like Kansas, also default to 4% on shoulders.)
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 22, 2022, 10:38:44 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 22, 2022, 12:47:17 PM
I'm moving to Japan literally in like three days, and I'll be there for a year or two. So, I'll come back to this thread in a couple weeks and report back on my initial thoughts after having not done it for eight years.
Best of luck with the move!
Are the wiper and turn signal stalks reversed? I think that is true for at least one of the Asian countries with LHT/RHD (can't remember whether it is Japan or Thailand).
Cheers!
Yes, the wiper and turn signal stalks are indeed reversed. That will ultimately take the most amount of time to get used to. I think operating a manual transmission with my left hand may have taken some time, but my car (2008 Mazda Atenza Wagon) is an automatic so I won't have to worry much about that.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 22, 2022, 10:38:44 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 22, 2022, 12:47:17 PM
My primary issue has been balance: I constantly felt like the car had weight on the wrong side ... like I was going to tip over. Such an odd feeling. Got used to it pretty quick, though the feeling of "I'm driving in the passenger seat" took a bit longer to overcome.
I wonder if this feeling was magnified by high crossfall. The UK has traditionally used 2.5% pretty much everywhere, while the US tends to use 1.5%-2% and go higher in areas that see high-intensity rainfall. (Some states, like Kansas, also default to 4% on shoulders.)
It could have been! Though, the crossfall in the UK could be similar to here in Washington State; we do have rather similar climate patterns.
I think it was mostly psychological; the unbalanced feeling was more in my head, resulting from the front-left seat being empty even while moving. The feeling was much less noticeable with an occupied vehicle.
I drive USPS mail trucks, which are RHD. No issues whatsoever, but that's still driving on the right. They do have a mirror advantage in that there are more mirrors to help guid positioning in the lane and where the front bumper actually lies, as well as with backing.
What took a little longer to adapt to was riding shotgun on the left when I was in India.
I own a RHD car, and that part took a day or two to get used to. I'm currently in a RHD/LHT country, and I'm still getting used to the LHT part.
I have never driven a RHD drive vehicle in Britain, but I did find left-hand driving an easy adjustment. Drive-thrus were problematic in an era where power windows weren't standard, but I managed.
I've done it several times in England, and am going to do it again in December and January.
I don't know how to drive a stick, so that's a moot point. The only thing I struggle with is the slowest lane being the one that's the furthest to the left and the fastest being the one that's furthest to the right, but other drivers are significantly more patient than they are in the US. Oh, and I still haven't mastered the double roundabout.
One thing I was telling my wife recently is that, since my left (non-dominant) hand is pretty much useless, I couldn't drink from a drink that was in the center console cup holder, so I'd either have to put it in the drink holder built into the driver's side door, or not be able to drink it at all.
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 24, 2022, 01:28:26 PM
One thing I was telling my wife recently is that, since my left (non-dominant) hand is pretty much useless, I couldn't drink from a drink that was in the center console cup holder, so I'd either have to put it in the drink holder built into the driver's side door, or not be able to drink it at all.
Couldn't you grab it with your right hand? It's not a huge reach.
As a manual transmission driver, I sometimes find myself having to reach from the opposite side. For example, eating ice cream but then I have to change gears. If my ice cream is in my right hand and I failed to predict an upcoming gear change, I'll reach over with my left hand and change gear. Leaving no hands on the wheel for a brief second, yes. Still, it's not an impossible move, just awkward. Just for a drink in a cupholder, I think I could do it more often.
I've taught enough people to drive stick, that shifting from the passenger seat isn't all that weird to me. Some people have needed a transition period of them using the clutch but me shifting.
Also, when I first fell in love, I used to hold my girlfriend's hand and just shift with my left every time. Turning when the light turned green was tricky, though, as shifting from 1st to 2nd is something I usually do partway through the turn.
Quote from: kphoger on October 24, 2022, 02:33:08 PM
Also, when I first fell in love, I used to hold my girlfriend's hand and just shift with my left every time.
I practiced driving with my left hand only, so that just in case I ever might get a girlfriend, I could have her slide across on the bench seat and put my right arm around her. By the time I had a girlfriend, I had a car with bucket seats, so the practice was in vain.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 24, 2022, 02:13:35 PMCouldn't you grab it with your right hand? It's not a huge reach.
I would really rather not, since driving on the left uses just about all of my concentration, but you are correct that it's an option.
I've lived in both the US and Australia for years at a time; currently in the latter. I have owned cars with both and have a lot of experiencing driving both.
It was not as difficult as I thought it would be, at least in the beginning. I think you actually concentrate a lot more when you know it is tricky.... where it becomes problematic is after you get comfortable with one for awhile. I found it is also a bit weird when I travel to one place for awhile, and then go back..... it's almost a little more disorientating upon the return, although that feeling usually goes away. Sometimes all you need to get comfortable is just kinda follow traffic for a bit. Oddly enough I find the different signage (metric/imperial) and lane markings (for example, yellow lines are rarely used in Oz) are enough of a reminder for me to adhere to a certain set of driving rules.
But it has rarely been a problem for me. I have some natural ambi-dexterity that perhaps helps a little bit; there are many things I do right-handed and many I do left-handed, and I've been playing drums for a long time, so maybe I have a good "brain" for this sort of thing, not sure.
After nearly 25 years of shuffling back and forth though, there are two dumb things I still do frequently when I'm in Australia - I try to get in on the passenger side, and when I am driving I will hit the windshield wipers instead of the headlights. My brain seems to not have fully adjusted to those things.
The other rather strange quirk that I have developed is that it feels very odd to go through roundabouts counter-clockwise. Roundabouts in the US are obviously all over the place now, but 20 years ago they were not. All of my roundabout training comes from the first time I lived in Australia which was 2002-2009; it was only after I moved to Colorado for 10 years and started seeing them pop up there that I got a little out of my comfort zone.
I wanna say my biggest thing was not getting in the wrong door, but reaching for the seatbelt on the wrong side every time.
Quote from: Alps on October 28, 2022, 05:00:28 PM
I wanna say my biggest thing was not getting in the wrong door, but reaching for the seatbelt on the wrong side every time.
Regarding the latter, I've heard that's quite common among US forces here in Okinawa. My coworker here told me it was the most common error he made.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 29, 2022, 05:14:17 AM
Quote from: Alps on October 28, 2022, 05:00:28 PM
I wanna say my biggest thing was not getting in the wrong door, but reaching for the seatbelt on the wrong side every time.
Regarding the latter, I've heard that's quite common among US forces here in Okinawa. My coworker here told me it was the most common error he made.
I can't say I've ever done either in the two years I've owned a RHD car. However, I have gone for the wiper stalk instead of the turn signals several times. In
some RHD countries, like Japan, the turn signal and wiper stalks are reversed, and in those cases the turn signal directions are also reversed: up for left and down for right. Some other RHD countries, I am told, have the same stalk setup as LHD countries. I haven't driven yet in South Africa and I haven't thought to look at the stalks of cars I've ridden in.
I've personally never found myself reaching left for the seat belt buckle in a RHD car, but I think this is because I always turn to the side that has the pillar, whether it is left or right.
I equivalate Americans driving on the left to British people in hot weather. Each out of their element.
For those who have reached the wrong way for a seatbelt... do you also do this when riding as a passenger in a LHD vehicle? It seems totally weird to me that someone could make this error.
I haven't made the seatbelt mistake, but if I'm walking to the car and talking with another American, then I will absolutely try to get in the wrong side of the car.
Quote from: kphoger on October 31, 2022, 11:01:33 AM
For those who have reached the wrong way for a seatbelt... do you also do this when riding as a passenger in a LHD vehicle? It seems totally weird to me that someone could make this error.
It's not like they're reaching all the way over and then realizing "oops wrong side". It's as simple as barely reaching the wrong way before realizing it's the other side. It's akin to accidentally walking towards the port side of the car when you mean to approach the starboard side. Minor error compared to activating the wrong steering wheel stalk.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 31, 2022, 11:33:51 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 31, 2022, 11:01:33 AM
For those who have reached the wrong way for a seatbelt... do you also do this when riding as a passenger in a LHD vehicle? It seems totally weird to me that someone could make this error.
It's not like they're reaching all the way over and then realizing "oops wrong side". It's as simple as barely reaching the wrong way before realizing it's the other side. It's akin to accidentally walking towards the port side of the car when you mean to approach the starboard side. Minor error compared to activating the wrong steering wheel stalk.
But that doesn't answer my question. Do you also do this when riding as a passenger in the USA?
I would imagine the cue that is causing confusion is "steering wheel in front me/steering wheel not in front of me" rather than "left side of car/right side of car".
Quote from: kphoger on November 01, 2022, 10:18:00 AM
But that doesn't answer my question. Do you also do this when riding as a passenger in the USA?
I never said that I did to begin with:
Quote from: jakeroot on October 29, 2022, 05:14:17 AM
Regarding [reversing seatbelts], I've heard that's quite common among US forces here in Okinawa. My coworker here told me it was the most common error he made.
To answer your question: I've not made the error myself. Still, I'll give an example of how this could happen: My car, a 2008 Mazda Atenza wagon, is exactly the same as a LHD car: ignition on right, steering wheel in middle with gauge cluster behind it, two steering wheel stalks, throttle on right, brake on left; etc. The only thing visibly wrong is being on the right side of the car and gear-shift and door being reversed. Besides that, it looks just like any other car anyone has ever driven. For some, noticing the center console on the left and door on the right, plus a passenger seat to their left, is enough of a visual clue that the seatbelt would be on their right. But for others, possibly many others, the attention is more on the steering wheel area, or the ignition, both of which are the same as back home, and thus do not provide the same level of visual clue to remind drivers that they need to reach to the right for their seatbelt.
Honestly, how well someone is focusing on their seatbelt could come down to whether or not they've had their coffee yet.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 02, 2022, 09:03:38 AM
I'll give an example of how this could happen: My car, a 2008 Mazda Atenza wagon, is exactly the same as a LHD car: ignition on right, steering wheel in middle with gauge cluster behind it, two steering wheel stalks, throttle on right, brake on left; etc. The only thing visibly wrong is being on the right side of the car and gear-shift and door being reversed. Besides that, it looks just like any other car anyone has ever driven. For some, noticing the center console on the left and door on the right, plus a passenger seat to their left, is enough of a visual clue that the seatbelt would be on their right. But for others, possibly many others, the attention is more on the steering wheel area, or the ignition, both of which are the same as back home, and thus do not provide the same level of visual clue to remind drivers that they need to reach to the right for their seatbelt.
This makes sense to me. If your routine is to close the door, put your gloves on, step on the brake pedal, turn the key in the ignition, put your seat belt on, and adjust the temperature knob... then your body is probably trained to do "right hand ignition, left hand seat belt".
People step on the brake pedal to start the car?
Quote from: J N Winkler on November 02, 2022, 01:04:29 PM
People step on the brake pedal to start the car?
It's been quite some time since I owned a car where I didn't have to.
I've always stepped on both the brake and the clutch when I start the car. Two of our cars won't start if you don't step on the clutch (the RX-7 will, but right now it won't start for other reasons), and when I learned to drive I was taught to step on the brake just as a precaution against the car lurching for whatever reason.
Ms1995hoo's Acura TLX, which is our only automatic-shift car, will not start if you don't step on the brake (a message to that effect will display in the instrument pod).
I've personally never driven an automatic where stepping on the brake was necessary to start the engine. I usually keep my foot off the brake pedal to avoid wasting reserve vacuum in the booster and to avoid applying additional electrical load while the starter is cranking.
Come to think of it, I usually step on the brake out of habit when starting the car, so I've never noticed whether it's actually required or not. That's because stepping on the brake is required to release the E-brake, so whenever I'm in a rush, turning the key, stepping on the brake, and releasing the E-brake blur into one simultaneous movement.
One thing that occurs to me is that most, maybe all, automatic-shift cars sold in the USA since either the late 1980s or early 1990s require the driver to step on the brake before shifting out of Park, so if you drive an automatic, it seems to me you'd be stepping on the brake either way anyway. I knew a guy who bought a 1991 Honda Accord, which had the "shift interlock" of that sort, and he insisted he could never get it to shift out of Park without using his key in the interlock override slot. Turned out he wasn't stepping firmly on the brake before trying to shift.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 02, 2022, 01:49:57 PM
One thing that occurs to me is that most, maybe all, automatic-shift cars sold in the USA since either the late 1980s or early 1990s require the driver to step on the brake before shifting out of Park, so if you drive an automatic, it seems to me you'd be stepping on the brake either way anyway. I knew a guy who bought a 1991 Honda Accord, which had the "shift interlock" of that sort, and he insisted he could never get it to shift out of Park without using his key in the interlock override slot. Turned out he wasn't stepping firmly on the brake before trying to shift.
I think it might be that cars with push-button start require you to depress the brake before starting and cars you start the old-fashioned way do not. My MIL still has her late husband's 2008 Altima and you have to push the brake before starting it.
I'm almost positive that you can turn the ignition to accessory mode without pushing the brake in any car.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 02, 2022, 01:49:57 PMOne thing that occurs to me is that most, maybe all, automatic-shift cars sold in the USA since either the late 1980s or early 1990s require the driver to step on the brake before shifting out of Park, so if you drive an automatic, it seems to me you'd be stepping on the brake either way anyway. I knew a guy who bought a 1991 Honda Accord, which had the "shift interlock" of that sort, and he insisted he could never get it to shift out of Park without using his key in the interlock override slot. Turned out he wasn't stepping firmly on the brake before trying to shift.
I do step on the brake immediately after the engine fires. The difference is that the booster gets a continuing supply of vacuum from the intake manifold and the electrical load for the brake lamps is carried by the alternator rather than the battery.
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 02, 2022, 02:10:25 PMI think it might be that cars with push-button start require you to depress the brake before starting and cars you start the old-fashioned way do not. My MIL still has her late husband's 2008 Altima and you have to push the brake before starting it.
This sounds plausible. None of the family cars (model years 1994-2009, all automatics) has push-button start, and all will start without a foot on the brake pedal.
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 02, 2022, 02:10:25 PMI'm almost positive that you can turn the ignition to accessory mode without pushing the brake in any car.
I have personally never heard of a car for which this was not the case.
FWIW, this is the usual sequence for me:
* Turn ignition switch to On.
* Crank engine.
* Step on brake pedal.
* Adjust climate controls (fan, temperature, etc.).
* Release emergency brake, if set.
* Put car in gear.
* Begin moving.
When I learned to drive, it was in a stick-shift car, and it was my dad who taught me. He taught me to keep my foot on the brake pedal when starting the ignition, just in case I had neglected to put the transmission in neutral first. Wouldn't want the car to suddenly lurch forward and hit whatever is in front of you. It's a habit that I've never given up, even with automatics.
I learned to drive on a 2006 Toyota Prius which had a push-button start. Like most push-button starts, depressing the brake is required for full ignition; pressing the start button simply turns on the electrics. Even though my stick-shift VW from 2015 only required depressing the clutch, I frequently pressed the brake simultaneous out of habit.
I've been driving in England for almost two weeks now and what do I keep doing? That's right, getting in the driver's seat and reaching over my left shoulder for the seatbelt.
I blame this board.
Quote from: kphoger on November 02, 2022, 05:14:31 PM
When I learned to drive, it was in a stick-shift car, and it was my dad who taught me. He taught me to keep my foot on the brake pedal when starting the ignition, just in case I had neglected to put the transmission in neutral first. Wouldn't want the car to suddenly lurch forward and hit whatever is in front of you. It's a habit that I've never given up, even with automatics.
Heh. Same here. Just realized I do the same out of the old standard days.
Quote from: kphoger on November 02, 2022, 05:14:31 PM
When I learned to drive, it was in a stick-shift car, and it was my dad who taught me. He taught me to keep my foot on the brake pedal when starting the ignition, just in case I had neglected to put the transmission in neutral first. Wouldn't want the car to suddenly lurch forward and hit whatever is in front of you. It's a habit that I've never given up, even with automatics.
Recent-model manual transmission cars are interlocked so the ignition will not work if the car is not in neutral. I still keep the parking brake on when I start my car anyway.
I hope to be doing my first driving on the left during a trip that is planned to include some time in England in Summer 2023. My fairly limited international travel experience (https://www.teresco.org/pics/countries.txt) has been mostly in countries that drive on the right. The only exceptions are the UK and the Bahamas. On my visits to those countries, I have not done any driving and I don't think I even got into a standard passenger car. Just several buses in England and airport transport vans each way on one of the Bahamas visits. I'll see how quickly I can adapt as a driver, but as a pedestrian in London, I was appreciative of the LOOK LEFT and LOOK RIGHT painted on many curbs that reminded me that traffic in the lane I would be stepping into might not be traveling in the direction I expect.
Quote from: abefroman329 on December 19, 2022, 06:48:16 AMI've been driving in England for almost two weeks now and what do I keep doing? That's right, getting in the driver's seat and reaching over my left shoulder for the seatbelt.
I blame this board.
As long as you're not turning right into the right lane . . . (Anne Sacoolas received her prison sentence 11 days ago.) (https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/08/uk/anne-sacoolas-sentencing-harry-dunn-death-intl-gbr/index.html)
Hope you're having fun!
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 19, 2022, 12:37:41 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on December 19, 2022, 06:48:16 AMI've been driving in England for almost two weeks now and what do I keep doing? That's right, getting in the driver's seat and reaching over my left shoulder for the seatbelt.
I blame this board.
As long as you're not turning right into the right lane . . . (Anne Sacoolas received her prison sentence 11 days ago.) (https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/08/uk/anne-sacoolas-sentencing-harry-dunn-death-intl-gbr/index.html)
Hope you're having fun!
Makes me think of Matthew Broderick in Ireland.
Quote from: Rothman on December 19, 2022, 12:40:17 PMMakes me think of Matthew Broderick in Ireland.
Yup. August 5, 1987, in Enniskillen, Northern Ireland. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Broderick#1987_car_crash) Two people dead, and a career pause for Jennifer Grey, who was riding with him and was seriously injured.
All I can think of while reading this thread is this
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1156.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp576%2FEternal_Winter7%2Ftumblr_m60a1dsnsL1ryzncbo1_250_zpsfe13422a.gif&hash=cae97dfb8e9b86676d03135af40f68f6345c62ad)
It's been about a month and half now since I moved to Japan and started driving RHD/LHT. Here's my thoughts:
* Any difficulty of driving on the left passed pretty quick. I honestly don't think much of it. Staying left may take some extra thought at first, but it doesn't take more than a couple days of driving, at most, before you've done it so much that it's almost second-nature. I've slipped and accidentally went to the wrong side a couple times, but it was always two-lane unmarked roads where driving in the wrong direction would have already been common thanks to parked cars or pedestrians.
* Driving on the right side of the car took much longer to get used to. At first, I found myself leaning left a lot, I think because I'm used to seeing the road from the other side of the car, and being on the right side just felt "wrong". This feeling has since passed, but there are some other difficulties, like hugging the left edge of the lane (caused, I think, from being used to sitting on the left edge of the lane). My friend here taught me to "keep [my] butt on the line", and that has helped me a bit.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 19, 2022, 12:37:41 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on December 19, 2022, 06:48:16 AMI've been driving in England for almost two weeks now and what do I keep doing? That's right, getting in the driver's seat and reaching over my left shoulder for the seatbelt.
I blame this board.
As long as you're not turning right into the right lane . . . (Anne Sacoolas received her prison sentence 11 days ago.) (https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/08/uk/anne-sacoolas-sentencing-harry-dunn-death-intl-gbr/index.html)
Hope you're having fun!
Ha - thanks! I am having fun, and it seems to be an utter mystery to everyone else on this trip as to why I could possibly have fun driving in England.
I thought this thread was going to be a dig against left lane hogs for a second and that the title was sarcastic LOL
England isn't the only place that observes left hand traffic laws. Countries like Singapore do as well. I've never been overseas myself but I would guess it would take time getting used to passing on the right, and exiting left. Personally I've never understood the appeal of left instead of right, since most people are right handed. For the same reason its easier to parallel park to the right.
I'm sad that, as the OP of this thread, I won't even get my chance to try out my UK driving as my wife has "cancelled" our trip to Scotland on me and told me to take a trip by myself. (This is not a euphemism for divorce. :)) Interestingly enough, I will only be traveling in left-hand-traffic countries (Thailand, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, India, Pakistan) other than one layover (Taiwan), but I am not a crazy enough person to want to drive in south Asia.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 21, 2022, 09:29:38 AMpassing on the right
That is, without a doubt, the hardest thing to wrap your mind around. Not just that, but the whole concept of the leftmost lane being the slowest lane.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 21, 2022, 09:29:38 AM
I've never understood the appeal of left instead of right, since most people are right handed.
That's my issue too: I'd rather shift with my dominant hand.
It's often theorized that the custom of driving on the left probably originates from medieval days of travel on horseback. Riding on the left was generally preferred in case of an encounter with a hostile stranger because riding on the left put one's dominant hand, which would be used to handle weapons, on the side closer to where the stranger would be.
The USA, in contrast, had no custom deriving from medieval days other than, perhaps, something derived from British custom, but apparently it is widely theorized that the American custom of keeping to the right originated with carts drawn by teams of horses or oxen where the typically right-handed driver would ride one of the animals located on the left side of the team; that, in turn, led drivers to prefer to keep to the right because it made it easier to pass someone coming the other way.
That's a great point. I never thought of it like that. I assumed it had something to do with driving on the right side due to the majority being right-handed, but that makes alot more sense. What side the controls of the car are on are based on what side of the road you drive on, not the other way around, so I don't think it's based on that. Unless there is some tangible benefit of controls being on one side. (I always felt they should be in the center).
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 22, 2022, 12:45:03 PM
It's often theorized that the custom of driving on the left probably originates from medieval days of travel on horseback. Riding on the left was generally preferred in case of an encounter with a hostile stranger because riding on the left put one's dominant hand, which would be used to handle weapons, on the side closer to where the stranger would be.
The USA, in contrast, had no custom deriving from medieval days other than, perhaps, something derived from British custom, but apparently it is widely theorized that the American custom of keeping to the right originated with carts drawn by teams of horses or oxen where the typically right-handed driver would ride one of the animals located on the left side of the team; that, in turn, led drivers to prefer to keep to the right because it made it easier to pass someone coming the other way.
Correct. If you don't like the US system, then you can blame the Teamsters.
Quote from: kphoger on December 22, 2022, 01:27:12 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 22, 2022, 12:45:03 PM
It's often theorized that the custom of driving on the left probably originates from medieval days of travel on horseback. Riding on the left was generally preferred in case of an encounter with a hostile stranger because riding on the left put one's dominant hand, which would be used to handle weapons, on the side closer to where the stranger would be.
The USA, in contrast, had no custom deriving from medieval days other than, perhaps, something derived from British custom, but apparently it is widely theorized that the American custom of keeping to the right originated with carts drawn by teams of horses or oxen where the typically right-handed driver would ride one of the animals located on the left side of the team; that, in turn, led drivers to prefer to keep to the right because it made it easier to pass someone coming the other way.
Correct. If you don't like the US system, then you can blame the Teamsters.
Obviously the mob didn't like the US system... RIP Jimmy Hoffa.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 22, 2022, 12:45:03 PM
It's often theorized that the custom of driving on the left probably originates from medieval days of travel on horseback. Riding on the left was generally preferred in case of an encounter with a hostile stranger because riding on the left put one's dominant hand, which would be used to handle weapons, on the side closer to where the stranger would be.
I actually think this is not just a theory, but a fact. It's the reason why Japan drives on the left as well: kept their right (often dominate) hand available to engage with an oncoming combatant.
I believe keeping left was the rule world-wide until France adopted right-hand traffic in the late 1700s, I think by Napolean. For what reason, I don't know. But that rule would ultimately influence other countries to keep right, such as those colonised by France and those with which France shared a border.
Quote from: kphoger on December 22, 2022, 12:38:37 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 21, 2022, 09:29:38 AM
I've never understood the appeal of left instead of right, since most people are right handed.
That's my issue too: I'd rather shift with my dominant hand.
Fun-fact: they say left-hand traffic countries are safer because most people are right-eye dominant. The right eye being closer to oncoming traffic and the driver's mirror.
Shifting with the dominant hand is actually why the US drivers on the right.
Farmers Teamsters found it easier to handle horse whips with their right hand, so they sat on the left and kept right.
Quote from: jakeroot on December 22, 2022, 08:42:02 PM
Farmers found it easier to handle horse whips with their right hand, so they sat on the left and kept right.
Teamsters. Farmers just ride wherever they want.
I've heard Brits argue that driving on the left is better because you can have a consistent rule of yielding to the right that applies in all situations, rather than suddenly yielding to the other direction at roundabouts.
Really, to me it's made no difference whenever I've driven on the other side except for maneuvering in tight spaces like indoor parking garages with pillars, which I think a prior post of mine in this thread mentions (the bulk of the car being on the other side makes it trickier in tight spaces, though I guess if it makes you concentrate more, that's not bad either).
I wasn't aware that Brits had a general 'give way to the right' rule to begin with.
Quote from: kphoger on December 22, 2022, 10:09:00 PMI wasn't aware that Brits had a general 'give way to the right' rule to begin with.
There isn't. There is, in fact, no priority rule comparable to
priorité Ã droite in France.
Quote from: kphoger on December 22, 2022, 08:49:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 22, 2022, 08:42:02 PM
Farmers found it easier to handle horse whips with their right hand, so they sat on the left and kept right.
Teamsters. Farmers just ride wherever they want.
True, thank you.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 22, 2022, 10:45:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 22, 2022, 10:09:00 PMI wasn't aware that Brits had a general 'give way to the right' rule to begin with.
There isn't. There is, in fact, no priority rule comparable to priorité Ã droite in France.
Im not sure if one is even needed, given the absence of three- and four-way stop signs, or anything even resembling one. The dashed line across the road you're traveling on tells you who needs to give way to who.
Quote from: abefroman329 on December 23, 2022, 03:06:01 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 22, 2022, 10:45:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 22, 2022, 10:09:00 PM
I wasn't aware that Brits had a general 'give way to the right' rule to begin with.
There isn't. There is, in fact, no priority rule comparable to priorité Ã droite in France.
Im not sure if one is even needed, given the absence of three- and four-way stop signs, or anything even resembling one. The dashed line across the road you're traveling on tells you who needs to give way to who.
While not necessarily common, there are
uncontrolled (https://goo.gl/maps/goNvkoXiYDFdpnQu7)
intersections (https://goo.gl/maps/MfJhKyx8VxhQuQLz7) in Britain.
It's difficult to put hard numbers on the relative prevalence of or traffic volume handled by uncontrolled intersections in Britain versus the US. However, the fact that give-way lines suffice legally to indicate a give-way requirement (except in roadworks situations)--something that is not true for yields in the US--does give traffic practitioners more flexibility. I've seen give-way lines without signs at intersections that in the US would plausibly be left without priority control.
This said, it seems to me that the deliberate lack of a rule comparable to priorité Ã droite encourages defensive driving by not creating a false expectation that the other driver will yield at an uncontrolled intersection.
My point was simply that someone made the argument, not what the law over there actually is.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 23, 2022, 01:36:52 PM
My point was simply that someone made the argument, not what the law over there actually is.
That's what I figured. After I read your post, I looked up various webpages and forum posts about right-of-way in Britain, specifically at uncontrolled intersections. All of them mentioned that turning traffic should yield to through-traffic, and also that it's appropriate for small vehicles to yield to large ones, but not a single one of them mentioned yield-to-the-right as expected or even common practice.
Quote from: kphoger on December 23, 2022, 02:02:41 PMit's appropriate for small vehicles to yield to large ones
Good point, I should start doing this.
Actually, I've found that 18-wheelers tend to yield to passenger cars at four-way stops if it's close, at least around here: they know it takes longer for them to clear the intersection, so they decide to be nice and let the car go first.
I've driven a number of times in the UK, and driving over there proved not that difficult t.b.h. Especially motorways were a lot easier than expected. However on a normal crossroads you have to think about turning your car correctly to the left side of the road.
My experience was in a normal continental European car (my own), so I have no experience with driving a rental vehicle over there.