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Started by wxfree, December 11, 2013, 01:18:40 AM

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cpzilliacus

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 13, 2013, 10:30:24 AM
NJDOT has their Safety Service Patrol (SSP) that normally operates from 4:30am to 8pm weekdays, 10:30am to 8pm weekends, on large portions of the interstates highways, along with Routes 29, 42, 55 & 440.  During snow and other weather events, those SSP trucks are also on duty, and will run 24 hours a day as necessary until the weather event is over and the roads are cleared.

The NJ Turnpike, Parkway and Expressway also has their own service patrol program, but nothing as extensive as NJDOT's.

Virginia DOT calls their roadside assistance program by the same name, Safety Service Patrol (SSP).  They use contractor employees, but the trucks belong to VDOT (with state government tags).  The Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority (MWAA) provides a similar service on all lanes of Va. 267 (Dulles Toll Road and on the Dulles Access Road), and Transurban has its own service that patrols the I-495 HOV/Toll lanes.

I would presume that the New Jersey toll roads would provide more (and more-frequent) SSP units than the "free" NJDOT roads.  Curious that it is the other way. 

In Maryland, SHA provides CHART service on Interstates and some other "free" tolled roads.  MdTA provides its own service on their system (and they run it 24/7).

At least in the past, Maryland and Virginia have stepped-up their roadside assistance service and also deployed more state police on overtime when it gets very cold (somewhere less than 20° F).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.


Alps

Quote from: NE2 on December 13, 2013, 06:11:13 PM
29, 42, and 440 are extensions of Interstates, so they probably just said fuck it, let's do them rather than turn around where the Interstate ends.
That seems by far like the most likely explanation.

6a

Quote from: wxfree on December 11, 2013, 01:18:40 AM

More accurately, I'm wondering if other states are, as many claim, capable of removing ice quickly.  Removing the slush before it freezes would be best, but the whole DFW region only has about 30 TxDOT snow plows, plus about 10 for the NTTA.

I have almost no experience with winter driving conditions in other areas, and have not seen those conditions responded to.  Are people just complaining, or are we Texans just slow at responding to icy roads?

We had several inches of snow fall earlier this week right during the morning rush, which was a mess. By the evening, however, freeways and most main arterials had dry pavement. Not plowed, I mean dry pavement. If we had an ice storm, the plows would be out continually salting. Usually the residential streets aren't plowed until 4 inches have fallen (Columbus only, suburbs usually hit everything) but I have seen the trucks hit all streets when there is a bunch of ice.

So yeah, usually 24-48 hours to dry pavement for an average winter storm. Then again, between city, suburbs and ODOT, there are probably a couple hundred plows in the county.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Steve on December 13, 2013, 08:12:58 PM
Quote from: NE2 on December 13, 2013, 06:11:13 PM
29, 42, and 440 are extensions of Interstates, so they probably just said fuck it, let's do them rather than turn around where the Interstate ends.
That seems by far like the most likely explanation.

Doubt it. Then why exclude portions of the interstates? I've never felt a sense that they would ever treat 42 different from 76 or 295 just because of the "interstate" label. Certainly not in terms of clearing up congestion, signage, snow work, etc.

NE2

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 14, 2013, 02:35:09 PM
Quote from: Steve on December 13, 2013, 08:12:58 PM
Quote from: NE2 on December 13, 2013, 06:11:13 PM
29, 42, and 440 are extensions of Interstates, so they probably just said fuck it, let's do them rather than turn around where the Interstate ends.
That seems by far like the most likely explanation.

Doubt it. Then why exclude portions of the interstates?
What portions are excluded? Unless they exclude 76, 195, and 287, that argument fails.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

Zeffy

Is NJDOT or the County responsible for plowing and salting the roads (well, US Highways in my case)? Because coming home from work, US 206/202 in Bridgewater was virtually unplowed to the point where lane striping was invisible. It looked the same on both ends of US 22. The Somerville Circle was treacherous and I almost got taken out by some douche speeding through the snow. I couldn't tell if I-287 was plowed, but it looked better than what I had to drive on coming home. I did see plows on US 206 heading towards Bridgewater as I drove it south into Hillsborough, but I didn't get enough time to read the decals on the plows.

Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

Duke87

#31
We got a few inches around here today (well, technically yesterday as I type this), with snow falling lightly throughout the day. In the city it changed over to rain at about 11 PM. Dunno if it also did so outside the city but the forecast said it was supposed to.

I went Connecticut today, because I had planned to, and hey, I'm not the type to let something as minor as a little snow get in my way.
On a good day with no traffic (rarely, they do exist!) this trip takes 50 minutes. I left Queens at about 1:15 PM and the roads were pretty clear until I got off of the parkway. Took me about an hour and 15 minutes. No big deal.
But then, when I left at about 8:30 PM... things were dicier. Took me two hours to get home. Merritt and Hutch had now not been plowed in a bit and you couldn't do more than 30-40 MPH. I was one of the few cars on the road that was not an SUV, and a few of those were going 50+ through the snow (idiots think 4 wheel drive makes them invincible). I decided to use 287 to go over to 95, figuring it might be in better condition than the Hutch... it wasn't. In fact, it was worse simply by virtue of there being more vehicles on it, so rather than being able to mostly coast at 30-40 MPH (which is the smoothest and safest way to drive in such conditions), I often had to slow down below that because of traffic in front of me and then later speed back up... which besides being unideal because on slippery surfaces constant speed is your friend, creates problems for me because when I try to climb hills in the snow doing less than 30 I start slipping and spinning my wheels.
Once I got into the city, conditions improved, although trying to get going after being stopped (because red lights on city streets) in wet slush is more wheel-spinning fun.

New York is generally better at keeping their highways clear in winter than Connecticut is. The reason why, I've figured, is that New York applies salt liberally, which melts stuff and keeps the pavement clear. Connecticut, meanwhile, seems to be averse to using salt (possibly for environmental reasons) and instead applies sand liberally - which helps a little with traction but sandy snow is still more of a hindrance to driving than melted snow.

If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

Alps

Quote from: Zeffy on December 14, 2013, 10:20:02 PM
Is NJDOT or the County responsible for plowing and salting the roads (well, US Highways in my case)? Because coming home from work, US 206/202 in Bridgewater was virtually unplowed to the point where lane striping was invisible. It looked the same on both ends of US 22. The Somerville Circle was treacherous and I almost got taken out by some douche speeding through the snow. I couldn't tell if I-287 was plowed, but it looked better than what I had to drive on coming home. I did see plows on US 206 heading towards Bridgewater as I drove it south into Hillsborough, but I didn't get enough time to read the decals on the plows.


State plows state roads, county plows county roads, town plows town roads.

Zeffy

Quote from: Steve on December 15, 2013, 08:02:19 AM
State plows state roads, county plows county roads, town plows town roads.

The state needs to do their fucking job next time - it's been snowing since 6 and you don't even plow / salt a normally congested roadway? I knew that every back road I could take would be deadly, so I figured the main roads would have at least been salted. No, I was wrong. No offense to NJDOT, but I saw situations where there was bound to be a wreck because of the conditions on the road.
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

1995hoo

I was in my first year at Duke Law during the so-called "Blizzard of '96." The streets didn't get plowed worth a damn because Durham County's one snowplow broke down. Didn't help that they insisted on waiting until all precipitation ceased before starting to plow.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Zeffy on December 15, 2013, 11:00:10 AM
Quote from: Steve on December 15, 2013, 08:02:19 AM
State plows state roads, county plows county roads, town plows town roads.

The state needs to do their fucking job next time - it's been snowing since 6 and you don't even plow / salt a normally congested roadway? I knew that every back road I could take would be deadly, so I figured the main roads would have at least been salted. No, I was wrong. No offense to NJDOT, but I saw situations where there was bound to be a wreck because of the conditions on the road.

Chances are, both were being done.  But during a storm, it's nearly impossible to keep the roads cleared. Even if a plow came thru a lane, cars in the other lane unintentionally throw the slush back into the lane that was plowed.  Plus, all that snow that is on cars and trucks?  When it falls off, it doesn't disappear - it lays in the roadway, adding to everything sitting in the road.  You can further tell a road that's been treated if there's a pile of snow along the shoulder, or if it's brown (which means salt has been spread over the roadway at some point).  Most residential streets will be nearly purely white during a storm, because they haven't been treated.

In the best case scenario, this is the order of things: Brine roadway.  Salt roadway in attempt to keep it clear.  But once the snow is coming in fast and hard, it's strictly a plowing operation.  It doesn't make sense to salt the roadway, because the next plow will just plow the salt off the roadway before it could be effective.  As the storm starts to end, then salting is done again.  Plow trains are used to clear the entire roadway at one time.  Sucks to be behind them, but they are the most effective way to remove snow and slush from the travel lanes.

Snow is just one of those things that is really tough to work with - motorists expect clear roads at all time.  But until a storm stops, the best that can be done is plowing paths to keep traffic moving.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: NE2 on December 14, 2013, 03:30:06 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 14, 2013, 02:35:09 PM
Quote from: Steve on December 13, 2013, 08:12:58 PM
Quote from: NE2 on December 13, 2013, 06:11:13 PM
29, 42, and 440 are extensions of Interstates, so they probably just said fuck it, let's do them rather than turn around where the Interstate ends.
That seems by far like the most likely explanation.

Doubt it. Then why exclude portions of the interstates?
What portions are excluded? Unless they exclude 76, 195, and 287, that argument fails.

Not all of 78, 80, 195 & 295 are covered by the SSP.

NE2

Which parts of 195 are covered? Let me guess - at least west of the Turnpike? If so, your doubts are unfounded.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

jeffandnicole

Quote from: NE2 on December 15, 2013, 08:14:21 PM
Let me guess - at least west of the Turnpike? If so, your doubts are unfounded.

So your answer of "Let's just do them instead of turning around" is the answer to why some routes are done and not others?  Um, no.

Citation needed?  Thought you would never ask.

http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/about/press/2010/120710.shtm

Quote"The data-driven changes we are making will preserve and enhance an important safety and congestion-fighting program that helps us maximize existing roadway capacity,"  NJDOT Commissioner James Simpson said. "By realigning patrols, we are able to achieve cost savings and provide motorists with weekend service for the first time along some of the state's highest traffic-volume corridors."

QuoteExpanded weekend service is being achieved in part by pulling back SSP coverage from relatively low-traffic, low-congestion and low-accident areas. Safety Service Patrol trucks and crews will now operate along 225 center-lane miles of New Jersey's core commuter and high traffic-volume roadways.

QuotePatrols will be conducted along portions of interstates and other freeways where statistics demonstrate the greatest need for service. SSP crews respond to more than 100,000 incidents per year.

QuoteConcentrating staff and vehicles to areas of greatest need helps NJDOT make the best use of limited resources and enables the program to operate with approximately 70 employees utilizing about 45 vehicles. The intent of the realignment is to minimize cost and maximize benefits to motorists.


NE2

That's marketing speak that doesn't actually jibe with reality. NJ 29 is almost certainly a "relatively low-traffic, low-congestion and low-accident area", especially on weekends.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

jeffandnicole

Quote from: NE2 on December 15, 2013, 11:34:41 PM
That's marketing speak that doesn't actually jibe with reality. NJ 29 is almost certainly a "relatively low-traffic, low-congestion and low-accident area", especially on weekends.

And the other 5 days a week?  I guess the 511 traffic alerts regarding traffic congestion is just marketing speak as well. 

NE2

#41
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 16, 2013, 06:12:11 AM
And the other 5 days a week?

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 15, 2013, 10:47:13 PM
QuoteExpanded weekend service is being achieved in part by pulling back SSP coverage from relatively low-traffic, low-congestion and low-accident areas.

[Removed false quote. Don't put words in people's mouths. -S.]
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

Alps

Quote from: NE2 on December 16, 2013, 07:00:15 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 16, 2013, 06:12:11 AM
And the other 5 days a week?

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 15, 2013, 10:47:13 PM
QuoteExpanded weekend service is being achieved in part by pulling back SSP coverage from relatively low-traffic, low-congestion and low-accident areas.

I think you're misinterpreting. The service they're ADDING is on the weekends, but the service they're SUBTRACTING can be wherever and whenever.

NE2

Oh, so they're doing some zero-sum silliness. Still, as you said, the criteria don't match the choices - there are many "higher traffic-volume corridors" than NJ 29.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

jeffandnicole

The portion of NJ 29 covered also includes a shoulder used as a travel lane during the morning rush hour, and the Trenton tunnel, which could have a factor in their coverage. 

When the coverage first started, there was truck stationed at the tunnel, specifically for any incidents within the tunnel.  They've since cut that very specific coverage.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Steve on December 16, 2013, 08:11:41 PM
Quote from: NE2 on December 16, 2013, 07:00:15 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 16, 2013, 06:12:11 AM
And the other 5 days a week?

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 15, 2013, 10:47:13 PM
QuoteExpanded weekend service is being achieved in part by pulling back SSP coverage from relatively low-traffic, low-congestion and low-accident areas.

I think you're misinterpreting. The service they're ADDING is on the weekends, but the service they're SUBTRACTING can be wherever and whenever.

I took it to think he believes NJ 29 is a low-volume state highway most of the time, and especially more so on the weekends.  Where as the reality is NJ 29 is a fairly high volume highway, posting an AADT in excess of 65k weekdays.

Alps

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 17, 2013, 01:46:21 PM
Quote from: Steve on December 16, 2013, 08:11:41 PM
Quote from: NE2 on December 16, 2013, 07:00:15 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 16, 2013, 06:12:11 AM
And the other 5 days a week?

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 15, 2013, 10:47:13 PM
QuoteExpanded weekend service is being achieved in part by pulling back SSP coverage from relatively low-traffic, low-congestion and low-accident areas.

I think you're misinterpreting. The service they're ADDING is on the weekends, but the service they're SUBTRACTING can be wherever and whenever.

I took it to think he believes NJ 29 is a low-volume state highway most of the time, and especially more so on the weekends.  Where as the reality is NJ 29 is a fairly high volume highway, posting an AADT in excess of 65k weekdays.
On the other hand, 65k is still lower than many other NJ highways, some of which may not be covered. I think that was his point.

hotdogPi

Google Maps says traffic in my area almost everywhere (constant yellow). Probably because of the snow, and not really traffic.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.



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