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Double-Turning

Started by webny99, November 06, 2018, 02:38:40 PM

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webny99

Do drivers in other places double-turn, or is it something specific to the Rochester area or Upstate NY?

To clarify, when I say double-turn, I mean drivers from both directions on a side street will turn simultaneously onto a main road of four or more lanes. So when the traffic signal on the side street turns green, drivers will turn left into the left lane, while the cars across from them are simultaneously turning right into the right lane.

Despite the generally accepted practice being for left-turning traffic to yield to right-turning traffic across from them, double-turning happens quite often at a few intersections near me and I'm curious as to whether it happens elsewhere, or is somewhat location-specific. It certainly saves on wait times on the side street if drivers are prepared to do this.

In some cases, it could be dangerous to turn left at the same time someone else is turning right, if the car turning right needs to turn into the left lane to make an immediate left turn. Or vice-versa if the car turning left needs to make an immediate right turn.


Brandon

#1
Damn, I hate that shit.  They try it here, around Metro Chicago (and there's only one place I know it's condoned*).  In all but that one intersection, I usually give them the horn if I have right-of-way, i.e. protected arrow for left turn, green ball for right turn.

*That one intersection, and I think it's highly dangerous due to the opposite turns is the Harlem Avenue exit ramp on I-290 and Harlem Avenue (IL-43) in Oak Park.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

jeffandnicole

Quote from: webny99 on November 06, 2018, 02:38:40 PM
Do drivers in other places double-turn, or is it something specific to the Rochester area or Upstate NY?

To clarify, when I say double-turn, I mean drivers from both directions on a side street will turn simultaneously onto a main road of four or more lanes. So when the traffic signal on the side street turns green, drivers will turn left into the left lane, while the cars across from them are simultaneously turning right into the right lane.

Despite the generally accepted practice being for left-turning traffic to yield to right-turning traffic across from them, double-turning happens quite often at a few intersections near me and I'm curious as to whether it happens elsewhere, or is somewhat location-specific. It certainly saves on wait times on the side street if drivers are prepared to do this.

In some cases, it could be dangerous to turn left at the same time someone else is turning right, if the car turning right needs to turn into the left lane to make an immediate left turn. Or vice-versa if the car turning left needs to make an immediate right turn.

I would think in most states, the law is if you're turning left you must turn into the closest lane, and same with right turns.  If you're turning and need to immediately cross, you'll have to yield to someone else.  Yes, those turning right have the absolutely right of way (unless there's a yield sign), but it's smart to wait if you want to avoid an accident.

As far as people turning left and right at the same time - generally speaking it depends on how busy the intersection is.  In many areas the left turner can wait.  In busy areas, rush hour, etc, both directions have to turn at the same time just to keep people moving.

abefroman329

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 06, 2018, 03:04:45 PM
I would think in most states, the law is if you're turning left you must turn into the closest lane, and same with right turns.
It's certainly what I was taught when I took driver's ed in GA.  That and "don't change lanes in the middle of an intersection.

Brandon

Quote from: abefroman329 on November 06, 2018, 03:40:32 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 06, 2018, 03:04:45 PM
I would think in most states, the law is if you're turning left you must turn into the closest lane, and same with right turns.

It's certainly what I was taught when I took driver's ed in GA.  That and "don't change lanes in the middle of an intersection.

I got taught a little differently.

1. Don't pull out and make a turn when other traffic has the right of way, i.e. a protected left arrow when you are making a right on red, turning left on a green ball or flashing yellow arrow when others are turning right.

2. Don't pull out to make a right turn unless all lanes are clear.

Otherwise, if you do so, you are at fault for the crash.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

kphoger

The law varies from state to state when it comes turning into the nearest lane.  A few states do not require that, but most states do.  I think there might even be a state or two that requires it only for turning right but not for turning left.

At any rate, I choose to double-turn probably one time out of three, and I'll wait the other two times out of three.  I do try to turn such that I don't end up immediately next to any other car, but rather attempt to be just a bit behind or ahead.  That way, if I need to perform a sudden avoidance maneuver, it's a fairly easy matter of braking or swerving.  Drivers turning into the far lane for no good reason is a pet peeve of mine on the road.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Brandon on November 06, 2018, 04:05:27 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 06, 2018, 03:40:32 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 06, 2018, 03:04:45 PM
I would think in most states, the law is if you're turning left you must turn into the closest lane, and same with right turns.

It's certainly what I was taught when I took driver's ed in GA.  That and "don't change lanes in the middle of an intersection.

I got taught a little differently.

1. Don't pull out and make a turn when other traffic has the right of way, i.e. a protected left arrow when you are making a right on red, turning left on a green ball or flashing yellow arrow when others are turning right.

2. Don't pull out to make a right turn unless all lanes are clear.

Otherwise, if you do so, you are at fault for the crash.

I understand the italized part, but it's impossible to know (technically speaking) what the other directions have.  If I'm turning right on red, I just need to verify I can safely make the turn. I wouldn't know if opposing traffic has a protected left arrow.  Even if someone is turning, technically I don't know if they have an arrow, or if they're running the red light!  Either way I probably wouldn't turn until it's safe.

For #2, if the roadway is 2 lanes wide and the person is in the left lane, I may pause until they are passing, but otherwise I'll prepare to turn right.  If the road is 3 or more lanes wide and they're in the left lane, I'm definitely turning right, especially if I just need to turn into the right lane!

RobbieL2415

If you're gonna do it here you need to do it in the innermost lane.  CT's a "closest lane turn" state, but nobody follows that law and it drives me mad.

skluth

Quote from: abefroman329 on November 06, 2018, 03:40:32 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 06, 2018, 03:04:45 PM
I would think in most states, the law is if you're turning left you must turn into the closest lane, and same with right turns.
It's certainly what I was taught when I took driver's ed in GA.  That and "don't change lanes in the middle of an intersection.

This is not the rule in California. From p 50 of the California Driver's Handbook https://www.dmv.ca.gov/web/eng_pdf/dl600.pdf:

1. Left turn from a two-way street. Start the turn in the left lane closest to the middle of the street. Complete the turn, if safe, in either lane of the cross street (shown by the arrows). Use the center left turn lane if one is available. A left turn may be made from the other lane, if permitted by signs or arrows.

RobbieL2415

Quote from: skluth on November 07, 2018, 06:43:59 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 06, 2018, 03:40:32 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 06, 2018, 03:04:45 PM
I would think in most states, the law is if you're turning left you must turn into the closest lane, and same with right turns.
It's certainly what I was taught when I took driver's ed in GA.  That and "don't change lanes in the middle of an intersection.

This is not the rule in California. From p 50 of the California Driver's Handbook https://www.dmv.ca.gov/web/eng_pdf/dl600.pdf:

1. Left turn from a two-way street. Start the turn in the left lane closest to the middle of the street. Complete the turn, if safe, in either lane of the cross street (shown by the arrows). Use the center left turn lane if one is available. A left turn may be made from the other lane, if permitted by signs or arrows.
CA is an exception to the rule. So is SC. But again, I've never seen a cop in a "closest lane" state pull someone over for a violation.

jakeroot

#10
"Double turning" is very common in British Columbia (well, Vancouver). Drivers are very good about turning into the closest lane, so it's not usually an issue. I don't know what the law states specifically, but drivers-ed courses teach drivers to turn into the closest lane. Many signals here have no arrow, so pushing out and maximizing the permissive-phase turning capacity is really important.

At the Rupert St off-ramp from eastbound Hwy 1, the left turn towards 1st Ave, and the double right turn from Rupert to 1st Ave, both occur at the same time without issue. Neither have green arrow phases. The entire intersection is a two-phase fully-permissive intersection, so it's necessary to keep traffic moving...and it works quite well.

You can sort of see it occurring here: https://goo.gl/xwQ7CM


webny99

Right, double-turning is much more valuable at intersections with no protected phase. In fact, all of the places I can think of where it happens often are permissive-only.

jakeroot

Quote from: webny99 on November 07, 2018, 09:52:12 PM
Right, double-turning is much more valuable at intersections with no protected phase. In fact, all of the places I can think of where it happens often are permissive-only.

Indeed...it's most common at permissive-only, although I still see it at pro/per lights as well, especially where there are two single-lane turns going into a three-lane road.

kphoger

Quote from: skluth on November 07, 2018, 06:43:59 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 06, 2018, 03:40:32 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 06, 2018, 03:04:45 PM
I would think in most states, the law is if you're turning left you must turn into the closest lane, and same with right turns.
It's certainly what I was taught when I took driver's ed in GA.  That and "don't change lanes in the middle of an intersection.

This is not the rule in California. From p 50 of the California Driver's Handbook https://www.dmv.ca.gov/web/eng_pdf/dl600.pdf:

1. Left turn from a two-way street. Start the turn in the left lane closest to the middle of the street. Complete the turn, if safe, in either lane of the cross street (shown by the arrows). Use the center left turn lane if one is available. A left turn may be made from the other lane, if permitted by signs or arrows.

Heads up...  The driver's handbook does not have the force of law.  It's always a good idea to look up the actual statute in case it's worded differently.  For the record, I include below the pertinent part of the vehicle code.

Quote from: California Vehicle Code, Division 11, Rules of the Road
CHAPTER 6. Turning and Stopping and Turning Signals

22100

Except as provided in Section 22100.5 or 22101, the driver of any vehicle intending to turn upon a highway shall do so as follows:

(a) Right Turns. Both the approach for a right-hand turn and a right-hand turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except:

(1) Upon a highway having three marked lanes for traffic moving in one direction that terminates at an intersecting highway accommodating traffic in both directions, the driver of a vehicle in the middle lane may turn right into any lane lawfully available to traffic moving in that direction upon the roadway being entered.

(2) If a right-hand turn is made from a one-way highway at an intersection, a driver shall approach the turn as provided in this subdivision and shall complete the turn in any lane lawfully available to traffic moving in that direction upon the roadway being entered.

(3) Upon a highway having an additional lane or lanes marked for a right turn by appropriate signs or markings, the driver of a vehicle may turn right from any lane designated and marked for that turning movement.

(b) Left Turns. The approach for a left turn shall be made as close as practicable to the left-hand edge of the extreme left-hand lane or portion of the roadway lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of travel of the vehicle and, when turning at an intersection, the left turn shall not be made before entering the intersection. After entering the intersection, the left turn shall be made so as to leave the intersection in a lane lawfully available to traffic moving in that direction upon the roadway being entered, except that upon a highway having three marked lanes for traffic moving in one direction that terminates at an intersecting highway accommodating traffic in both directions, the driver of a vehicle in the middle lane may turn left into any lane lawfully available to traffic moving in that direction upon the roadway being entered.

Notes:

If I read this code correctly, then California only requires turning into the nearest lane if all of the following are met:
1.  You are turning right.
2.  You are turning from a two-way road.
3.  You are turning from a road that has fewer than three lanes in your direction.

Therefore–as I understand it–if there are two right-turn lanes available, you are legally allowed to turn from the second lane into the first lane and vice-versa.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

vdeane

Quote from: kphoger on November 08, 2018, 12:36:41 PM
Therefore–as I understand it–if there are two right-turn lanes available, you are legally allowed to turn from the second lane into the first lane and vice-versa.
That sounds like a good way to cause a crash if two people are turning right at the same time.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

kphoger

Quote from: vdeane on November 08, 2018, 01:05:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 08, 2018, 12:36:41 PM
Therefore–as I understand it–if there are two right-turn lanes available, you are legally allowed to turn from the second lane into the first lane and vice-versa.
That sounds like a good way to cause a crash if two people are turning right at the same time.

Exactly.  Am I reading the statute correctly, though?  I sometimes misread legalese.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

TEG24601

I have seen in in effect in places with a right-turn signal, those in themselves are very rare in my travels.  The one that comes to mind though is SB/WB SR 20 in Oak Harbor at Pioneer Way.  The traffic from the south on Beeksma Dr, can turn Left onto WB 20, while the traffic coming from the north on WB 20, have a green arrow to turn onto WB 20.  The only time that the right-turn signal is dark is when traffic comes from the East on Pioneer Way.
They said take a left at the fork in the road.  I didn't think they literally meant a fork, until plain as day, there was a fork sticking out of the road at a junction.

jakeroot

Quote from: TEG24601 on November 10, 2018, 12:27:56 PM
I have seen in in effect in places with a right-turn signal, those in themselves are very rare in my travels.  The one that comes to mind though is SB/WB SR 20 in Oak Harbor at Pioneer Way.  The traffic from the south on Beeksma Dr, can turn Left onto WB 20, while the traffic coming from the north on WB 20, have a green arrow to turn onto WB 20.  The only time that the right-turn signal is dark is when traffic comes from the East on Pioneer Way.

That right-turn filter signal for southbound WA-20 traffic is also dark when the northbound Beeksma Dr traffic has a green left arrow (spin the camera around): https://goo.gl/ypJyLy

Either way, traffic going north on Beeksma and traffic going south on WA-20 both turn at the same time onto WA-20 (westbound) at the same time during the permissive phase?

bzakharin

Where to turn *from* is usually not a difficult question to answer, at least at a light, because most roads with more than one lane will have dedicated turn lane(s) marked for that purpose. As for which lane to turn onto, I too was taught to use the nearest lane to the side you're turning. There are also often lane markings which guide the left turn. That said, there is one intersection I frequent that has two left turn lanes onto a three lane (in each direction) road. The traffic in the leftmost turn lane always turns onto the leftmost lane, but traffic in the other lane splits about evenly between the remaining two lanes. The opposing direction has a "no turn on red" sign, so double turning should never happen (but the only clue that someone new to the area has is that there is a "no turn on red" in their direction as well).

I try to avoid double turning regardless of how many lanes the roads have, but it happened to me just today by accident (but not resulting in one thankfully).



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