Erroneous road signs

[kkt]

If there is a Speed Limit 50 sign posted, but the law on the books says it's supposed to be 40, what's the enforceable limit?

Whatever the person with the badge and the gun feels like enforcing?

[jakeroot]

If there is a Speed Limit 50 sign posted, but the law on the books says it's supposed to be 40, what's the enforceable limit?

If it's striped and signed for two-way traffic (and for the left turn from the driveway), it's de facto legal regardless of what the de jure law says.

What's the context of the question? I've never seen Washington post a speed limit above what the law books say it's supposed to be.

[PHLBOS]

If there is a Speed Limit 50 sign posted, but the law on the books says it's supposed to be 40, what's the enforceable limit?

If it's striped and signed for two-way traffic (and for the left turn from the driveway), it's de facto legal regardless of what the de jure law says.

What's the context of the question? I've never seen Washington post a speed limit above what the law books say it's supposed to be.

Was the phrase, "...unless otherwise posted..." written anywhere in that law?  That's how Massachusetts words its various speed laws.

Example: by the book, its (MA) speed on divided highways is 50, unless otherwise posted.

[jakeroot]

If there is a Speed Limit 50 sign posted, but the law on the books says it's supposed to be 40, what's the enforceable limit?

If it's striped and signed for two-way traffic (and for the left turn from the driveway), it's de facto legal regardless of what the de jure law says.

What's the context of the question? I've never seen Washington post a speed limit above what the law books say it's supposed to be.

Was the phrase, "...unless otherwise posted..." written anywhere in that law?  That's how Massachusetts words its various speed laws.

Example: by the book, its (MA) speed on divided highways is 50, unless otherwise posted.

The law (here) allows for adjustments within a city, when a study proves the limit is too low, or when the secretary of transport approves an increase.

My original comment looks a bit daft now. I should have said "I've never seen Washington post a speed limit on a high-speed road that was higher than what the state allowed (50 for county roads, 60 for state highways).

[thenetwork]

If there is a Speed Limit 50 sign posted, but the law on the books says it's supposed to be 40, what's the enforceable limit?

It depends if you are a local or an out-of-towner! 

[NE2]

You can barely make out a white patch in the top right. They probably made an AR 18X shield (since this direction of the one-way pair is inventoried as section 7X).

[Zeffy]

FYI: The discussion that arose from jeffandnicole's post has now been split into it's own topic in the Northeast forum. Please continue to post road signs containing errors in them here! Thanks!

[roadman65]

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.724355,-74.089481,3a,75y,40.79h,70.83t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sCsU5xGQYg45q-VP-V3Y4WQ!2e0

Here is a sign that should read NO LEFT TURN instead of NO TURNS, as there is no road to the right here on NB NJ 440 in Jersey City, NJ.

[NE2]

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.724355,-74.089481,3a,75y,40.79h,70.83t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sCsU5xGQYg45q-VP-V3Y4WQ!2e0

Here is a sign that should read NO LEFT TURN instead of NO TURNS, as there is no road to the right here on NB NJ 440 in Jersey City, NJ.

I don't get it. What's the error?

[freebrickproductions]

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.724355,-74.089481,3a,75y,40.79h,70.83t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sCsU5xGQYg45q-VP-V3Y4WQ!2e0

Here is a sign that should read NO LEFT TURN instead of NO TURNS, as there is no road to the right here on NB NJ 440 in Jersey City, NJ.

Not sure if it's really erroneous.
You can't turn right for obvious reasons and it appears that left and u turns are prohibited.

[Roadrunner75]

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.724355,-74.089481,3a,75y,40.79h,70.83t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sCsU5xGQYg45q-VP-V3Y4WQ!2e0

Here is a sign that should read NO LEFT TURN instead of NO TURNS, as there is no road to the right here on NB NJ 440 in Jersey City, NJ.

Not sure if it's really erroneous.
You can't turn right for obvious reasons and it appears that left and u turns are prohibited.

Went through that very intersection today, EB from Truck 1-9 to Communipaw...a complete mess as usual and deserving of a reconfiguration / flyover / etc.

[roadfro]

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.724355,-74.089481,3a,75y,40.79h,70.83t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sCsU5xGQYg45q-VP-V3Y4WQ!2e0

Here is a sign that should read NO LEFT TURN instead of NO TURNS, as there is no road to the right here on NB NJ 440 in Jersey City, NJ.

Not sure if it's really erroneous.
You can't turn right for obvious reasons and it appears that left and u turns are prohibited.

Before the graphical version of the combined no left/U turn sign was created, entities around the Las Vegas area often used the "No Turns" sign mounted in the median or on the end of the mast arm to disallow both turn types at an intersection. (In the interim, they went to posting both a no left turn and a no U turn sign.)

[roadman65]

In New Jersey a NO LEFT TURN sign also means NO U TURNS as well.  They look at it as this: you have to make a left turn first to make the u turn as you must pass 90 degrees before you reach 180 degrees.

Basically, a No Left Turn sign should have been posted to cover all bases here.  A NO TURNS sign means No left or right, or at a merge which is for both sides of the merge where the road merging is not to turn left and the main road is not to turn right on a standard right side merge or the opposite on a left side merge.

[NE2]

NO TURNS means no turns. It's not incorrect at this location.

[roadman65]

NO TURNS means no turns. It's not incorrect at this location.

That is your opinion.  To me and many others (maybe not on here as I just learned) NO TURNS means left and right and not LEFT and U.

[NE2]

what

Seriously, in what dictionary is a U-turn not a type of turn?

[roadman65]

what

Seriously, in what dictionary is a U-turn not a type of turn?

Seriously, you are arguing over something this stupid and irrelevant!  Its a sign for crying out loud.  I just think NO LEFT TURN would be cover both and it does here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.837206,-69.285977,3a,75y,125.31h,86.05t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1szlhaccaISkqBc5GD7OiA5A!2e0

[1995hoo]

The sign looks accurate to me, but I think they could have underscored it by using a vertical green arrow on the traffic light instead of a green circle.

I view that sign as being somewhat similar to the foreign sign consisting of a vertical "straight-ahead" arrow inside a green circle, thereby indicating "you can go straight ahead," which they understand to imply "and you cannot go any other way because no sign allows it." The US approach is simply different because the idea here is to tell you what you CAN'T do, rather to say "you CAN do X and anything else is prohibited."

In this case, it says "NO TURNS." A U-turn is obviously a form of turn (it says so in the name, right?). "NO TURNS" is therefore the equivalent of "thou shalt continue straight ahead."

I don't know whether "No Left Turn" would be deemed sufficient to cover U-turns. Some people seem to think they're different animals, though a U-turn around a median is functionally the same thing as two left turns if you view it from a theoretical viewpoint.

[roadman65]

That is how it is in the NJ 28 W Bound at CR 617 in Roselle Park (the other link) and some other places around New Jersey.

I did not bring the politics of this sign into when I initially posted, nor was it my intent.  It is just that to me I feel that the NO TURNS should be used when you cannot turn left and right.  Yes theoretically it is another turn and in this case it can be used to denote the third turn.  However, not overhead on a sign on the right side of the road.  If it were the median maybe so.

Remember this is just opinion and not rule as I am not a road sign dictator.  Yes, I can see your point on this and it does have merit as it can be looked at as two turns.  I will not disagree with that now, but initially when I first posted it did look odd to me that a NO TURNS sign was there considering that NJDOT used to like to consider the left and u as one being you have to make a left into the median first to make the u as noted in the NJ 28 photo added.

[NE2]

I did not bring the politics of this sign into when I initially posted, nor was it my intent.

what what what the fuck?

[PHLBOS]

I just think NO LEFT TURN would be cover both and it does here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.837206,-69.285977,3a,75y,125.31h,86.05t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1szlhaccaISkqBc5GD7OiA5A!2e0

  Are you sure you have the right GSV link posted? 

The only signs in the above-link is a route sine salad (ok, maybe a side-order-sized sine salad) w/a funky-looking US 2 shield & font.

[riiga]

This is why you should use a pictogram rather than text, it removes the ambiguity and need to argue about semantics.

Any of these would make it completely clear:

[1995hoo]

The latter two of those would probably NOT be clear to the average American driver who's never been abroad. As I noted before, the American approach to road signage is definitely biased towards telling you what you cannot do. A sign with a straight-ahead arrow would need to say "ONLY" to indicate you're not allowed to turn.

The sign on the left is perfectly clear in my opinion, but I don't see a practical difference between that and "NO TURNS" at the particular intersection in question other than the symbol perhaps being better for people who do not speak or read English. BTW, I explored around the Street View image and I note that at the next intersection behind the camera viewpoint roadman linked, there are separate "No Left Turn" and "No U-Turn" signs posted on the median one above the other. I've seen the single sign of the sort you've posted in some places in the US, but it's not all that common here for whatever reason (don't know why, it seems perfectly clear to me).

[Big John]

^^ The green balls in the signals could also be replaced with green ahead arrows.

[NE2]

This is why you should use a pictogram rather than text, it removes the ambiguity and need to argue about semantics.

Any of these would make it completely clear:

Except that the green circle sometimes means "you must do this" and sometimes means "you are permitted to do this".