After I-43 was built, the old sections of US 141 and Wis 15 were turned back to local control as they should have. For some reason Wis 175 was designated along old US 41 and US 12/Wis 16 remained on its original
alignment eventhough they're very close to I-90/I-94.
Wouldn't it make more sense to decommission Wis 175 between Milwaukee and Fond Du Lac and route US 12/Wis 16 on the parallel interstates on the lightly traveled sections? Why do those segments need to remain part of the state highway system? The counties did a great job maintaining old US 141 and Wis 15 after I-43 and there's no reason why they can't do the same along I-41, I-90 and I-94.
The idea of turning parallel roads back is unpopular on this board because people think there should be state-maintained alternates in case of emergencies on the interstate, but I think Wisconsin would be able to do it effectively like Minnesota has. Wisconsin has a good system of signing emergency detours, probably one of the better ones in the country, and people are navigating less by the route designation and by the emergency signs in these cases anyway.
I am wondering what agreements may have been made all those years ago that kept them on the state highway system.
Wisconsin keeps plenty of state highways on the books because the local jurisdictions won't take them back. Mostly, to swap with another new route sometime in the future.
Or, both entities aim to keep a designated amount of state highway mileage in a given county. A good recent example was the recent turnback of 74 in Waukesha County, in the works for several years, until the State was able to acquire the ROW to finish the Waukesha Bypass. They essentially swapped mileage.
No they should not be sent back to the counties. What they do need to do is consolidate numbers that would make sense as a one route corridor. 98 & 153 for example should be one number.
In fact, WI 175 was extended a few years ago. What was previouslyUS 41 between US 45 and WI 59 (National Ave) is now WI 175.
Mike
Turning back STH 175 between US 151 in Fond du Lac and Interstate 41/US 41/US 45 could "potentially" happen. After all, the northern end of STH 175 will have to be modified when the existing Interstate 41/US 41/US 45/US 151 interchange is converted from a diamond interchange to a free-flow system interchange (the jug-handle interchange between US 151 and STH 175 would have to be removed for such a conversion to be constructed). As for US 12 and old US 16, since 12 goes from Aberdeen, WA to Detroit, MI, and 16 goes from Interstate 90 in Dexter, MN to Interstate 94 in Peawaukee, WI, they should remain unaltered.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 13, 2022, 01:49:44 PM
Turning back STH 175 between US 151 in Fond du Lac and Interstate 41/US 41/US 45 could "potentially" happen. After all, the northern end of STH 175 will have to be modified when the existing Interstate 41/US 41/US 45/US 151 interchange is converted from a diamond interchange to a free-flow system interchange (the jug-handle interchange between US 151 and STH 175 would have to be removed for such a conversion to be constructed). As for US 12 and old US 16, since 12 goes from Aberdeen, WA to Detroit, MI, and 16 goes from Interstate 90 in Dexter, MN to Interstate 94 in Peawaukee, WI, they should remain unaltered.
I think the OP means have US-12 / WI-16 duplex with I-90/94 for a stretch. A US-12 duplex between Wisconsin Dells and Black River Falls, with the current US-12 being turned into a county highway, is a defensible idea.
Quote from: mgk920 on June 13, 2022, 11:13:24 AM
In fact, WI 175 was extended a few years ago. What was previouslyUS 41 between US 45 and WI 59 (National Ave) is now WI 175.
Mike
After being shortened between Fond Du Lac and Oshkosh.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 13, 2022, 02:04:05 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 13, 2022, 01:49:44 PM
Turning back STH 175 between US 151 in Fond du Lac and Interstate 41/US 41/US 45 could "potentially" happen. After all, the northern end of STH 175 will have to be modified when the existing Interstate 41/US 41/US 45/US 151 interchange is converted from a diamond interchange to a free-flow system interchange (the jug-handle interchange between US 151 and STH 175 would have to be removed for such a conversion to be constructed). As for US 12 and old US 16, since 12 goes from Aberdeen, WA to Detroit, MI, and 16 goes from Interstate 90 in Dexter, MN to Interstate 94 in Peawaukee, WI, they should remain unaltered.
I think the OP means have US-12 / WI-16 duplex with I-90/94 for a stretch. A US-12 duplex between Wisconsin Dells and Black River Falls, with the current US-12 being turned into a county highway, is a defensible idea.
That is what I meant. US 12 could easily be run concurrent between Wis Dells to Black River Falls and from Northwest Eau Claire to the MN Border. Wis 16 is a busy highway from La Crosse to West Salem which was recently upgraded to 4 lanes. But between Wis Dells and West Salem it's either concurrent with US 12 or a very minor parallel highway to I-90.
Quote from: peterj920 on June 13, 2022, 10:33:35 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 13, 2022, 02:04:05 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 13, 2022, 01:49:44 PM
Turning back STH 175 between US 151 in Fond du Lac and Interstate 41/US 41/US 45 could "potentially" happen. After all, the northern end of STH 175 will have to be modified when the existing Interstate 41/US 41/US 45/US 151 interchange is converted from a diamond interchange to a free-flow system interchange (the jug-handle interchange between US 151 and STH 175 would have to be removed for such a conversion to be constructed). As for US 12 and old US 16, since 12 goes from Aberdeen, WA to Detroit, MI, and 16 goes from Interstate 90 in Dexter, MN to Interstate 94 in Peawaukee, WI, they should remain unaltered.
I think the OP means have US-12 / WI-16 duplex with I-90/94 for a stretch. A US-12 duplex between Wisconsin Dells and Black River Falls, with the current US-12 being turned into a county highway, is a defensible idea.
That is what I meant. US 12 could easily be run concurrent between Wis Dells to Black River Falls and from Northwest Eau Claire to the MN Border. Wis 16 is a busy highway from La Crosse to West Salem which was recently upgraded to 4 lanes. But between Wis Dells and West Salem it's either concurrent with US 12 or a very minor parallel highway to I-90.
I just don't think there is any right or wrong way to do it. My guess is that they didn't keep US-141 around is because a good portion of I-43 sits on what *was* US-141 between Manitowoc to just south of Sheboygan.
For instance, the original route of US-141 between Manitowoc and Cleveland was "improved" long before I-43 came around. My guess is that one of I-43 lanes uses that improved US-141 ROW. The original is now a series of local roads that is hard to believe used to be a US highway - not even county highways any longer.
Despite US 141's truncation to Bellevue, there is still a 141 Speedway along CTH-R south of the STH 147 interchange on Interstate 43 (Exit 164).
WI 175 serves its purpose well, especially at Brewers home games. So I'd say leave those routes alone, because they may be needed if an emergency arises on the Interstates.
Why isn't this fictional?
Quote from: skluth on June 14, 2022, 01:44:23 PM
Why isn't this fictional?
Because these highways actually exist
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 14, 2022, 01:47:38 PM
Quote from: skluth on June 14, 2022, 01:44:23 PM
Why isn't this fictional?
Because these highways actually exist
WISDOT hasn't proposed doing this nor has any other entity. This thread is all speculation. There are multiple threads in fictional about real highways. The highways actually existing does not make this nonfiction.
Quote from: skluth on June 14, 2022, 02:01:15 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 14, 2022, 01:47:38 PM
Quote from: skluth on June 14, 2022, 01:44:23 PM
Why isn't this fictional?
Because these highways actually exist
WISDOT hasn't proposed doing this nor has any other entity. This thread is all speculation. There are multiple threads in fictional about real highways. The highways actually existing does not make this nonfiction.
Report it to the moderator then.
It's not likely any of these routes will be turned back. I'll leave it up to the moderators whether this subject stays in Midwest, or is moved to Fictional Highways.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 14, 2022, 10:17:25 AM
Despite US 141's truncation to Bellevue, there is still a 141 Speedway along CTH-R south of the STH 147 interchange on Interstate 43 (Exit 164).
Those are always interesting seeing businesses/attractions that have former highways listed in the name despite the highway no longer going through. I think County R is enough off of I-43 that they could have had 141 go to Manitowoc at least(as many debate having 141 south of Abrams is unneeded). But what was done 40 years ago was done 40 years ago.
Quote from: gr8daynegb on June 14, 2022, 03:58:25 PM
Those are always interesting seeing businesses/attractions that have former highways listed in the name despite the highway no longer going through.
This is my favorite. It closed in 2019, but it was located on US-12 in Clarkston, WA, which was US-410 up until 1967.
(https://www.roadarch.com/16/7/410.jpg)
Quote from: FightingIrish on June 13, 2022, 09:44:23 AM
Wisconsin keeps plenty of state highways on the books because the local jurisdictions won't take them back. Mostly, to swap with another new route sometime in the future.
Or, both entities aim to keep a designated amount of state highway mileage in a given county. A good recent example was the recent turnback of 74 in Waukesha County, in the works for several years, until the State was able to acquire the ROW to finish the Waukesha Bypass. They essentially swapped mileage.
The Waukesha bypass did not add any millage considering US 18 was dropped through Waukesha and the eastern and southern segments were already state highways to begin with.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 14, 2022, 09:31:38 AM
Quote from: peterj920 on June 13, 2022, 10:33:35 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 13, 2022, 02:04:05 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 13, 2022, 01:49:44 PM
Turning back STH 175 between US 151 in Fond du Lac and Interstate 41/US 41/US 45 could "potentially" happen. After all, the northern end of STH 175 will have to be modified when the existing Interstate 41/US 41/US 45/US 151 interchange is converted from a diamond interchange to a free-flow system interchange (the jug-handle interchange between US 151 and STH 175 would have to be removed for such a conversion to be constructed). As for US 12 and old US 16, since 12 goes from Aberdeen, WA to Detroit, MI, and 16 goes from Interstate 90 in Dexter, MN to Interstate 94 in Peawaukee, WI, they should remain unaltered.
I think the OP means have US-12 / WI-16 duplex with I-90/94 for a stretch. A US-12 duplex between Wisconsin Dells and Black River Falls, with the current US-12 being turned into a county highway, is a defensible idea.
That is what I meant. US 12 could easily be run concurrent between Wis Dells to Black River Falls and from Northwest Eau Claire to the MN Border. Wis 16 is a busy highway from La Crosse to West Salem which was recently upgraded to 4 lanes. But between Wis Dells and West Salem it's either concurrent with US 12 or a very minor parallel highway to I-90.
I just don't think there is any right or wrong way to do it. My guess is that they didn't keep US-141 around is because a good portion of I-43 sits on what *was* US-141 between Manitowoc to just south of Sheboygan.
For instance, the original route of US-141 between Manitowoc and Cleveland was "improved" long before I-43 came around. My guess is that one of I-43 lanes uses that improved US-141 ROW. The original is now a series of local roads that is hard to believe used to be a US highway - not even county highways any longer.
Actually most of the original US 141 is made up of county roads. The only portion of I-43 that uses the original highway is between Cleveland and Newton. It's County R between Bellevue and Manitowoc. County CR between Manitowoc and Newton. County DL between Newton and Sheboygan. County OK, LL, and W between Sheboygan and Milwaukee. However, the Alt I-43 emergency route is signed along Wis 57, Wis 23, and Wis 42.
County R is very easy to follow and well maintained as an alternate for I-43 between Manitowoc and Bellevue.
Quote from: dvferyance on June 14, 2022, 07:51:48 PM
Quote from: FightingIrish on June 13, 2022, 09:44:23 AM
Wisconsin keeps plenty of state highways on the books because the local jurisdictions won't take them back. Mostly, to swap with another new route sometime in the future.
Or, both entities aim to keep a designated amount of state highway mileage in a given county. A good recent example was the recent turnback of 74 in Waukesha County, in the works for several years, until the State was able to acquire the ROW to finish the Waukesha Bypass. They essentially swapped mileage.
The Waukesha bypass did not add any millage considering US 18 was dropped through Waukesha and the eastern and southern segments were already state highways to begin with.
My understanding is that the route through Waukesha didn't count toward the mileage cap because it was maintained by the city.
Quote from: peterj920 on June 14, 2022, 08:46:41 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 14, 2022, 09:31:38 AM
Quote from: peterj920 on June 13, 2022, 10:33:35 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 13, 2022, 02:04:05 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 13, 2022, 01:49:44 PM
Turning back STH 175 between US 151 in Fond du Lac and Interstate 41/US 41/US 45 could "potentially" happen. After all, the northern end of STH 175 will have to be modified when the existing Interstate 41/US 41/US 45/US 151 interchange is converted from a diamond interchange to a free-flow system interchange (the jug-handle interchange between US 151 and STH 175 would have to be removed for such a conversion to be constructed). As for US 12 and old US 16, since 12 goes from Aberdeen, WA to Detroit, MI, and 16 goes from Interstate 90 in Dexter, MN to Interstate 94 in Peawaukee, WI, they should remain unaltered.
I think the OP means have US-12 / WI-16 duplex with I-90/94 for a stretch. A US-12 duplex between Wisconsin Dells and Black River Falls, with the current US-12 being turned into a county highway, is a defensible idea.
That is what I meant. US 12 could easily be run concurrent between Wis Dells to Black River Falls and from Northwest Eau Claire to the MN Border. Wis 16 is a busy highway from La Crosse to West Salem which was recently upgraded to 4 lanes. But between Wis Dells and West Salem it's either concurrent with US 12 or a very minor parallel highway to I-90.
I just don't think there is any right or wrong way to do it. My guess is that they didn't keep US-141 around is because a good portion of I-43 sits on what *was* US-141 between Manitowoc to just south of Sheboygan.
For instance, the original route of US-141 between Manitowoc and Cleveland was "improved" long before I-43 came around. My guess is that one of I-43 lanes uses that improved US-141 ROW. The original is now a series of local roads that is hard to believe used to be a US highway - not even county highways any longer.
Actually most of the original US 141 is made up of county roads. The only portion of I-43 that uses the original highway is between Cleveland and Newton. It's County R between Bellevue and Manitowoc. County CR between Manitowoc and Newton. County DL between Newton and Sheboygan. County OK, LL, and W between Sheboygan and Milwaukee.
You don't have that quite right. The original routing of US-141 from Green Bay to the Milwaukee area is...
Brown and Manitowoc County R to Manitowoc
County CR to just south of Duvenek
County C west to Center Road
Center Road south to County F
County F west to Westview Road
Westview Road south to Dairyland Drive (bypassing downtown Cleveland)
Dairyland Drive to Sheboygan County FF
East on FF to County LS (Lakeshore Road)
South on Lakeshore to Sheboygan
Exiting Sheboygan to the south along South Business Drive
I-43 ROW to Sauk Trail Road
Sauk Trail Road south becomes Sheboygan County LL when it crosses WI-32, which becomes Oukaukee County LL
It used to follow WI-32 into Port Washington, before bypassing on the current LL.
Followed Port Washington Road to Milwaukee
The Center Road, Westfield Road routing was in place until the current ROW was built in the early 1970s and I-43 was on its way. So this isn't some ancient routing that I am talking about here.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 14, 2022, 09:31:00 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on June 14, 2022, 07:51:48 PM
Quote from: FightingIrish on June 13, 2022, 09:44:23 AM
Wisconsin keeps plenty of state highways on the books because the local jurisdictions won't take them back. Mostly, to swap with another new route sometime in the future.
Or, both entities aim to keep a designated amount of state highway mileage in a given county. A good recent example was the recent turnback of 74 in Waukesha County, in the works for several years, until the State was able to acquire the ROW to finish the Waukesha Bypass. They essentially swapped mileage.
The Waukesha bypass did not add any millage considering US 18 was dropped through Waukesha and the eastern and southern segments were already state highways to begin with.
My understanding is that the route through Waukesha didn't count toward the mileage cap because it was maintained by the city.
US 18 was pulled out of the downtown Waukesha routing and had a TEMP 18 routing along I-94.
The WIS 74 turnback was directly related to the newly constructed US 18 addition to the bypass, as well as the WIS 318 gap filler.
Wow! That's quite an old route to follow. Although this won't be done, I'd like it if this route was signed with Historic US 141 signs. After all, 141 only existed between Milwaukee and Green Bay prior to its 1928 extension to Covington, MI (and replacing US 102 between Crystal Falls and Covington).
I may be mistaken (and I often am), but I think those highways remain in place because they're vital as "emergency" routes and therefore WisDOT likes to keep them in state inventory.
The answer as to why US 141 was truncated and US 12/16 were not moved/turned back has to do with how they came into being. Most of the current I-43 freeway between Milwaukee and Green Bay was constructed as a freeway for US 141; as far north as Sheboygan. The designation had moved off of the former two lane/surface street alignments before I-43 was signed. Rather than have a long, pointless duplex, it made more sense to truncate US 141 as it was not standard practice to move US routes back onto old alignments.
This contrasts with the construction of Interstates 90 and 94 which were constructed as dedicated, new facilities signed as interstates the day they opened. The old routes stayed on their existing roads.
So it's a matter of how these interstates came to be. Which happened first? Construction of the freeway or signing of the interstate? This seems to have determined what course Wisconsin took in signing practices.
As far as turning back portions of US 12 and WI 16 and moving them onto the interstates, I can't help but be amused at how many more concurrencies that would create in a state that already has it's share. ;)
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 16, 2022, 03:08:37 PM
As far as turning back portions of US 12 and WI 16 and moving them onto the interstates, I can't help but be amused at how many more concurrencies that would create in a state that already has it's share. ;)
If they ever decided to do that, I would end WI-16 in Wisconsin Dells, turn it over to the counties between Tomah and Sparta, and then have WI-21 replace WI-16 to LaCrosse.
Or if you wanted to keep WI-16 meeting with MN-16, replace WI-16 from Wisconsin Dells to Oconomowoc with an extension of WI-13.
I think they would have done that in 1978, when US 16 was truncated from Pewaukee to Rapid City, SD, and the remainder of 16 in Minnesota and Wisconsin were downgraded to State Highway 16s. Like it or not, the two State Highway 16s are here to stay.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 16, 2022, 04:40:33 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 16, 2022, 03:08:37 PM
As far as turning back portions of US 12 and WI 16 and moving them onto the interstates, I can't help but be amused at how many more concurrencies that would create in a state that already has it's share. ;)
If they ever decided to do that, I would end WI-16 in Wisconsin Dells, turn it over to the counties between Tomah and Sparta, and then have WI-21 replace WI-16 to LaCrosse.
Or if you wanted to keep WI-16 meeting with MN-16, replace WI-16 from Wisconsin Dells to Oconomowoc with an extension of WI-13.
With your idea wouldn't you end 16 at Tomah you mean? As it is 12 and 16 stay concurrent until Wisconsin Dells. Albeit I have no issue with 16's routing. I'd have personally/logically more an argument to either end US 141 in Abrams or extend to Manitowoc or Sheboygan than have issues with 16's route
Quote from: gr8daynegb on June 17, 2022, 03:39:52 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 16, 2022, 04:40:33 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 16, 2022, 03:08:37 PM
As far as turning back portions of US 12 and WI 16 and moving them onto the interstates, I can't help but be amused at how many more concurrencies that would create in a state that already has it's share. ;)
If they ever decided to do that, I would end WI-16 in Wisconsin Dells, turn it over to the counties between Tomah and Sparta, and then have WI-21 replace WI-16 to LaCrosse.
Or if you wanted to keep WI-16 meeting with MN-16, replace WI-16 from Wisconsin Dells to Oconomowoc with an extension of WI-13.
With your idea wouldn't you end 16 at Tomah you mean? As it is 12 and 16 stay concurrent until Wisconsin Dells. Albeit I have no issue with 16's routing. I'd have personally/logically more an argument to either end US 141 in Abrams or extend to Manitowoc or Sheboygan than have issues with 16's route
Yes. Tomah. Thanks.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 17, 2022, 04:56:07 PM
Quote from: gr8daynegb on June 17, 2022, 03:39:52 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 16, 2022, 04:40:33 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 16, 2022, 03:08:37 PM
As far as turning back portions of US 12 and WI 16 and moving them onto the interstates, I can't help but be amused at how many more concurrencies that would create in a state that already has it's share. ;)
If they ever decided to do that, I would end WI-16 in Wisconsin Dells, turn it over to the counties between Tomah and Sparta, and then have WI-21 replace WI-16 to LaCrosse.
Or if you wanted to keep WI-16 meeting with MN-16, replace WI-16 from Wisconsin Dells to Oconomowoc with an extension of WI-13.
With your idea wouldn't you end 16 at Tomah you mean? As it is 12 and 16 stay concurrent until Wisconsin Dells. Albeit I have no issue with 16's routing. I'd have personally/logically more an argument to either end US 141 in Abrams or extend to Manitowoc or Sheboygan than have issues with 16's route
Yes. Tomah. Thanks.
no problem.....just been on those highways enough in those areas enough times to make an educated guess lol
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 14, 2022, 09:31:00 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on June 14, 2022, 07:51:48 PM
Quote from: FightingIrish on June 13, 2022, 09:44:23 AM
Wisconsin keeps plenty of state highways on the books because the local jurisdictions won't take them back. Mostly, to swap with another new route sometime in the future.
Or, both entities aim to keep a designated amount of state highway mileage in a given county. A good recent example was the recent turnback of 74 in Waukesha County, in the works for several years, until the State was able to acquire the ROW to finish the Waukesha Bypass. They essentially swapped mileage.
The Waukesha bypass did not add any millage considering US 18 was dropped through Waukesha and the eastern and southern segments were already state highways to begin with.
My understanding is that the route through Waukesha didn't count toward the mileage cap because it was maintained by the city.
All of it? I can say with 100% certainty the part from Les Paul to Whiterock was once owned by wisdot as Wisdot signage and lighting once existed there and probably still does.
Manhattan to White Rock was City of Waukesha:
https://projects.511wi.gov/18moreland/wp-content/uploads/sites/237/US-18-Project-Update_06-24-2016_Manhattan-Detour.pdf
What year was US 18 decomissioned within Waukesha between Meadowbrook Rd./Merrill Hills Rd. and the northern (eastern) terminus of the Les Paul Parkway? Was it in 2015 when STH 74 was decomissioned, or in 2017 when STH 318 was designated, or a different date entirely? Also, Google Maps still shows US 18 on its original alignment through Waukesha, and the West Waukesha Bypass between Summit Rd. and Genesee Rd. is marked as now-decommissioned CTH TT instead of US 18 (18 also isn't listed along STH 59 or STH 164). Maybe someday, Google Maps will rectify this, although I won't hold my breath.
Very close to that. WisDOT got approval from AASHTO to create a "temporary" US-18 route that left the existing route in Wales, going north on WI-83, east on I-94, and rejoined US-18 at Goerke's Corners. That was about the time that Summit Ave in Waukesha was being reconstructed, and work was being done on the bypass.