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Extending I-45 to Oklahoma?

Started by US71, March 07, 2018, 08:56:54 PM

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Bobby5280

#125
ODOT simply should have designed the slip ramp configuration better. This current design is pretty stupid. It's clear the design only paid attention to traffic access needs for the Choctaw Casino and paid zero attention to Calera.

The on/off ramps before and after Main Street in Calera are just backward. The off ramp is supposed to be positioned BEFORE the destination street, not after it. If the on/off ramp types were reversed (like off ramp before main street) the design wouldn't suck so bad. Going North past Main Street, US-69 has TWO off-ramps to the frontage road before reaching the casino -counting the off ramp that overshot Main Street in Calera by close to a mile.

ODOT is going to extra expense creating a new flyover for the old Business US-69 route to dovetail into Southbound US-69. A lot of traffic leaving the casino going back toward Dallas may use the old exit/extrance to US-69 (which ODOT plans to modify) since that one is visibly closer. Without the new flyover an off ramp from Southbound US-69 could have been positioned much closer to the Main Street intersection in Calera.

I'm not sure I understand the need for the "B Street Connector" bridge on the South side of Calera. This looks like a pretty expensive bridge. It has zero direct access to the US-69 freeway. It has indirect access to the frontage roads. The money that would be spent on that thing could have been redirected to a better, braided on/off ramp design.

Quote from: In_CorrectThe Locals (not) adjusting is a major concern. If the Muskogee Bypass was canceled, so will the Calera upgrades. These towns could use some new buildings relocated closer to slip ramps. But it seems they will not negotiate.

Local businesses can't just easily pick up and move their buildings based on the whims of where highway planners want to place on/off ramps. The simple fact is the proposed design is just bonkers stupid: lots of places to get on US-69 in Calera, just no logical places to exit US-69 where exit ramps would be expected.

Anti-freeway people in towns along US-69 really need to be looking at the bigger picture view. They're worried about new freeway development bypassing their businesses. That's understandable. The thing they don't seem to understand is this: a great deal of motorists are already bypassing that entire corridor, choosing the combo of I-35 & I-44 instead. I personally wouldn't drive US-69 in Oklahoma unless I had a very specific reason to do so, otherwise I would avoid "the Unfinished Corridor." Truckers may not mind US-69. Most others hate the speed zones, speed traps and stop lights in certain locations. Long haul truckers don't have to stop very often at all; their fuel capacity dwarfs that of consumer vehicles. People in cars, pickups and SUVs stop more often. They tend to haul more people (couples, families, etc). Most of those drivers gravitate to Interstate-class roads.

Towns like Atoka, Stringtown, etc are losing business to I-35 and they probably don't realize it.


sparker

^^^^
From what I've personally experienced, much of the US 69(75) traffic is either local, commercial or intended for some destination along the corridor (Muskogee, the lakes near Checotah, etc.).  At this point, Bobby's generally correct; no one utilizes this corridor unless they have to (in commercial terms, that means overall mileage between points), the downside (slogging through towns, multiple speed traps, dodging in and out of truck traffic) is just not worth it.  Obviously, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with the corridor's trajectory -- but as it sits it's all potential and little reality.  If competently planned so that both through traffic and local businesses could and would benefit from US 69 being upgraded to I-45 OK would have a corridor that would supply "a reasonable rate of return" on investment -- maybe not a "cash cow", but at least a steady income stream to the locals arrayed along the route.  But the way OK development has progressed recently (typified by the Calera mess as shown in the projections), simple competency may be too much for which to ask.  If OK doesn't do something in relatively short order -- at least before AR starts rolling on the I-49 "missing link" -- the opportunity will likely be lost.   

MikieTimT

#127
Quote from: sparker on August 28, 2018, 06:16:32 PM
^^^^
From what I've personally experienced, much of the US 69(75) traffic is either local, commercial or intended for some destination along the corridor (Muskogee, the lakes near Checotah, etc.).  At this point, Bobby's generally correct; no one utilizes this corridor unless they have to (in commercial terms, that means overall mileage between points), the downside (slogging through towns, multiple speed traps, dodging in and out of truck traffic) is just not worth it.  Obviously, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with the corridor's trajectory -- but as it sits it's all potential and little reality.  If competently planned so that both through traffic and local businesses could and would benefit from US 69 being upgraded to I-45 OK would have a corridor that would supply "a reasonable rate of return" on investment -- maybe not a "cash cow", but at least a steady income stream to the locals arrayed along the route.  But the way OK development has progressed recently (typified by the Calera mess as shown in the projections), simple competency may be too much for which to ask.  If OK doesn't do something in relatively short order -- at least before AR starts rolling on the I-49 "missing link" -- the opportunity will likely be lost.   

Oh, I'd bet that the I-49 missing link will be missing for a couple of decades at least, if it's up to Arkansas to fund it without a massive federal match.

Bobby5280

Meanwhile I-44 is starting to be improved in Oklahoma between Tulsa and OKC. As the widening project proceeds it may draw more trucks and other traffic currently using US-69 to get from Dallas to Big Cabin. If the Eastern OKC turnpike gets built out properly: extending down to I-35 rather than merely ending at I-40 even more of that long distance traffic will leave US-69 behind. The Creek Turnpike around the South side of Tulsa is mostly rural and has high speed limits (65mph-75mph). The Eastern OKC turnpike might offer long distance drivers the same thing.

There are obvious downsides to the I-35/I-44 combo to get from Dallas to Big Cabin and points farther North & Northeast. You're going to pay more in tolls. The driving distance is a little farther. The upshot is no stop signs or stop lights as well as no speed traps. Driving speeds are faster and more consistent.

Plutonic Panda

^^^ you got me excited about I-44 rebuild with your update to the project thread, I will need to have a look myself next time I'm up there and I'll use it as an excuse to check out the new Gathering Place Park and the Riverside Dr. tunnels which I hear are very nice!

sparker

^^^^^
Makes you wonder about the old "full" Chickasaw Turnpike concept from the late '50's (as seen on numerous Gousha state and regional maps of the era) extending from Davis to Ada and up to the Turner Tpk. at Stroud.  If that had become reality, it's unlikely anyone would be seriously talking about improving the US 69 corridor these days.   

Scott5114

Quote from: sparker on August 30, 2018, 02:15:44 AM
^^^^^
Makes you wonder about the old "full" Chickasaw Turnpike concept from the late '50's (as seen on numerous Gousha state and regional maps of the era) extending from Davis to Ada and up to the Turner Tpk. at Stroud.  If that had become reality, it's unlikely anyone would be seriously talking about improving the US 69 corridor these days.   

Interesting–got any links to those? The earliest versions of the Chickasaw I know about were a diagonal from Ada that ran out at I-40 around Henryetta.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

sparker

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 30, 2018, 03:38:58 AM
Quote from: sparker on August 30, 2018, 02:15:44 AM
^^^^^
Makes you wonder about the old "full" Chickasaw Turnpike concept from the late '50's (as seen on numerous Gousha state and regional maps of the era) extending from Davis to Ada and up to the Turner Tpk. at Stroud.  If that had become reality, it's unlikely anyone would be seriously talking about improving the US 69 corridor these days.   

Interesting–got any links to those? The earliest versions of the Chickasaw I know about were a diagonal from Ada that ran out at I-40 around Henryetta.

Unforunately, no; remember these from paper maps I had as a kid.  This system (ca. 1957-58) seemed more like an expansion of the OK turnpike systems rather than a first Interstate iteration.  IIRC, a trunk line paralleling US 77 extended from the TX line essentially where I-35 is today and extending north to a split near Davis.  The east branch was the "Chickasaw" pike, extending NE to around Ada then north along OK 99 to the Turner near Stroud.  The west branch turned northwest at Davis to about Elmore City, then north again past Purcell and Norman, skirting OKC on the east side before heading north to intersect the south end of the Kansas Turnpike (essentially mimicking I-35).  These alignments were likely cancelled once the Interstate corridors were established in late '57 and early '58.

Again, the primary source for this info was Gousha maps of the era, particularly regional maps; the '56-'59 editions would be the most likely.  I remember these because US 56 was commissioned farther north about that same time, also shown on these regional maps.

rte66man

Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 28, 2018, 04:54:51 PM
I'm not sure I understand the need for the "B Street Connector" bridge on the South side of Calera. This looks like a pretty expensive bridge. It has zero direct access to the US-69 freeway. It has indirect access to the frontage roads. The money that would be spent on that thing could have been redirected to a better, braided on/off ramp design.

That bridge provides a way across the UP tracks. Without it, the trains can completely block access from the east.  The locals asked for it.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

rte66man

Quote from: sparker on August 30, 2018, 11:32:11 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 30, 2018, 03:38:58 AM
Quote from: sparker on August 30, 2018, 02:15:44 AM
^^^^^
Makes you wonder about the old "full" Chickasaw Turnpike concept from the late '50's (as seen on numerous Gousha state and regional maps of the era) extending from Davis to Ada and up to the Turner Tpk. at Stroud.  If that had become reality, it's unlikely anyone would be seriously talking about improving the US 69 corridor these days.   

Interesting–got any links to those? The earliest versions of the Chickasaw I know about were a diagonal from Ada that ran out at I-40 around Henryetta.

Unforunately, no; remember these from paper maps I had as a kid.  This system (ca. 1957-58) seemed more like an expansion of the OK turnpike systems rather than a first Interstate iteration.  IIRC, a trunk line paralleling US 77 extended from the TX line essentially where I-35 is today and extending north to a split near Davis.  The east branch was the "Chickasaw" pike, extending NE to around Ada then north along OK 99 to the Turner near Stroud.  The west branch turned northwest at Davis to about Elmore City, then north again past Purcell and Norman, skirting OKC on the east side before heading north to intersect the south end of the Kansas Turnpike (essentially mimicking I-35).  These alignments were likely cancelled once the Interstate corridors were established in late '57 and early '58.

You are correct about them being cancelled when the Interstate corridors were established. 
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

bugo

Quote from: sparker on August 30, 2018, 11:32:11 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 30, 2018, 03:38:58 AM
Quote from: sparker on August 30, 2018, 02:15:44 AM
^^^^^
Makes you wonder about the old "full" Chickasaw Turnpike concept from the late '50's (as seen on numerous Gousha state and regional maps of the era) extending from Davis to Ada and up to the Turner Tpk. at Stroud.  If that had become reality, it's unlikely anyone would be seriously talking about improving the US 69 corridor these days.   

Interesting–got any links to those? The earliest versions of the Chickasaw I know about were a diagonal from Ada that ran out at I-40 around Henryetta.

Unforunately, no; remember these from paper maps I had as a kid.  This system (ca. 1957-58) seemed more like an expansion of the OK turnpike systems rather than a first Interstate iteration.  IIRC, a trunk line paralleling US 77 extended from the TX line essentially where I-35 is today and extending north to a split near Davis.  The east branch was the "Chickasaw" pike, extending NE to around Ada then north along OK 99 to the Turner near Stroud.  The west branch turned northwest at Davis to about Elmore City, then north again past Purcell and Norman, skirting OKC on the east side before heading north to intersect the south end of the Kansas Turnpike (essentially mimicking I-35).  These alignments were likely cancelled once the Interstate corridors were established in late '57 and early '58.

Again, the primary source for this info was Gousha maps of the era, particularly regional maps; the '56-'59 editions would be the most likely.  I remember these because US 56 was commissioned farther north about that same time, also shown on these regional maps.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 29, 2018, 04:06:55 PM
There are obvious downsides to the I-35/I-44 combo to get from Dallas to Big Cabin and points farther North & Northeast. You're going to pay more in tolls. The driving distance is a little farther. The upshot is no stop signs or stop lights as well as no speed traps. Driving speeds are faster and more consistent.

I much prefer the I-44-I-35-I-35E route through Oklahoma City over the US 75-Indian Nation Turnpike-US 69-US 75 route. It is far, far less stressful than driving through McAlester and Durant. It is a little further and takes a few more minutes but you arrive home not feeling like you had just driven through Baghdad. The tolls are a bargain to be able to sit back, relax, put the cruise control on and listen to some music instead of having to slow down and speed up and slow down and hit traffic lights then speed up again ad nauseam. There are probably 15 speed limit changes from McAlester to the Red River and you have to worry about the local law enforcement embezzling funds from your meager wallet. US 75 (Future I-45) in Texas is a freeway but isn't very enjoyable to drive, especially when you start getting close to Dallas. You have to drive through Oklahoma City which can either be a breeze or it can be slow, depending on what time of day it is but the rest of the drive is easy and relaxing unless you hit a freak traffic jam or construction zone (which are very popular in Oklahoma). When the turnpike is built and extended to I-35 it will make the western route look even more attractive. If I'm in a hurry I'll take the McAlester-Sherman route but if I have time I take the OKC route.

sparker

Quote from: bugo on November 22, 2018, 09:28:38 PM
US 75 (Future I-45) in Texas is a freeway but isn't very enjoyable to drive, especially when you start getting close to Dallas.

Haven't heard word one from any official source about upgrading/designating TX's portion of us 75 to I-45 -- particularly as a unilateral in-state move, since OK seems not to be in much of a hurry to follow suit!  Do you know something we don't?

bugo

Quote from: sparker on November 23, 2018, 02:02:59 AM
Quote from: bugo on November 22, 2018, 09:28:38 PM
US 75 (Future I-45) in Texas is a freeway but isn't very enjoyable to drive, especially when you start getting close to Dallas.

No, just a guess.
Haven't heard word one from any official source about upgrading/designating TX's portion of us 75 to I-45 -- particularly as a unilateral in-state move, since OK seems not to be in much of a hurry to follow suit!  Do you know something we don't?

sparker

Quote from: bugo on November 23, 2018, 09:24:19 AM
Quote from: sparker on November 23, 2018, 02:02:59 AM
Quote from: bugo on November 22, 2018, 09:28:38 PM
US 75 (Future I-45) in Texas is a freeway but isn't very enjoyable to drive, especially when you start getting close to Dallas.

No, just a guess.
Haven't heard word one from any official source about upgrading/designating TX's portion of us 75 to I-45 -- particularly as a unilateral in-state move, since OK seems not to be in much of a hurry to follow suit!  Do you know something we don't?

Actually, such a unilateral move by TXDOT would have some effects that might be at least amusing -- it would sure throw a monkey wrench into the I-345 teardown crowd -- "guess what -- we're not only gonna keep this corridor going BUT we're going to drag I-45 up it all the way to the Red River!"  And conceivably US 75 could be rerouted over US 69 all the way south to Port Arthur (hitting the other end of US 175 in the process), solving the "69, meet 69" situation.  Fun stuff!

And once signed to the state line, TXDOT could call up ODOT and mimic the late Ted Knight's entreaty to Michael O'Keefe at the end of Caddyshack (while the latter's lining up his $100K putt):  "Wellllllll?..........we're WAITING!"

rte66man

Quote from: sparker on November 23, 2018, 06:30:20 PM
Quote from: bugo on November 23, 2018, 09:24:19 AM
Quote from: sparker on November 23, 2018, 02:02:59 AM
Quote from: bugo on November 22, 2018, 09:28:38 PM
US 75 (Future I-45) in Texas is a freeway but isn't very enjoyable to drive, especially when you start getting close to Dallas.

No, just a guess.
Haven't heard word one from any official source about upgrading/designating TX's portion of us 75 to I-45 -- particularly as a unilateral in-state move, since OK seems not to be in much of a hurry to follow suit!  Do you know something we don't?

Actually, such a unilateral move by TXDOT would have some effects that might be at least amusing -- it would sure throw a monkey wrench into the I-345 teardown crowd -- "guess what -- we're not only gonna keep this corridor going BUT we're going to drag I-45 up it all the way to the Red River!"  And conceivably US 75 could be rerouted over US 69 all the way south to Port Arthur (hitting the other end of US 175 in the process), solving the "69, meet 69" situation.  Fun stuff!

And once signed to the state line, TXDOT could call up ODOT and mimic the late Ted Knight's entreaty to Michael O'Keefe at the end of Caddyshack (while the latter's lining up his $100K putt):  "Wellllllll?..........we're WAITING!"

and when hell freezes over, ODOT will have the money to do what is being requested.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

sparker

Quote from: rte66man on November 24, 2018, 01:05:03 PM
Quote from: sparker on November 23, 2018, 06:30:20 PM
Quote from: bugo on November 23, 2018, 09:24:19 AM
Quote from: sparker on November 23, 2018, 02:02:59 AM
Quote from: bugo on November 22, 2018, 09:28:38 PM
US 75 (Future I-45) in Texas is a freeway but isn't very enjoyable to drive, especially when you start getting close to Dallas.

No, just a guess.
Haven't heard word one from any official source about upgrading/designating TX's portion of us 75 to I-45 -- particularly as a unilateral in-state move, since OK seems not to be in much of a hurry to follow suit!  Do you know something we don't?

Actually, such a unilateral move by TXDOT would have some effects that might be at least amusing -- it would sure throw a monkey wrench into the I-345 teardown crowd -- "guess what -- we're not only gonna keep this corridor going BUT we're going to drag I-45 up it all the way to the Red River!"  And conceivably US 75 could be rerouted over US 69 all the way south to Port Arthur (hitting the other end of US 175 in the process), solving the "69, meet 69" situation.  Fun stuff!

And once signed to the state line, TXDOT could call up ODOT and mimic the late Ted Knight's entreaty to Michael O'Keefe at the end of Caddyshack (while the latter's lining up his $100K putt):  "Wellllllll?..........we're WAITING!"

and when hell freezes over, ODOT will have the money to do what is being requested.

OK has had their portion of the US 69/(75) corridor pre-approved as an Interstate (at least as far north as I-40; see "section 1174" of ISTEA) for 27 years and have yet to make a move in that direction.  It's not just the funds -- or lack thereof -- it's the will to actually engage in large-scale and highly visible expenditures of public funds; that concept appears to be anathema to the string of OK state administrations over the last few decades (unless it's a toll project like the 40/44 connector east of OKC).  Add to that the local resistance to bypasses along the US 69 corridor and you've got an ongoing recipe for inaction.  ODOT seems content to do "spot" projects like the Durant and Calera upgrades every once in a while, but nothing on a larger scale (or stage!).   

US71

Quote from: sparker on November 24, 2018, 03:57:52 PM


OK has had their portion of the US 69/(75) corridor pre-approved as an Interstate (at least as far north as I-40; see "section 1174" of ISTEA) for 27 years and have yet to make a move in that direction.  It's not just the funds -- or lack thereof -- it's the will to actually engage in large-scale and highly visible expenditures of public funds; that concept appears to be anathema to the string of OK state administrations over the last few decades (unless it's a toll project like the 40/44 connector east of OKC).  Add to that the local resistance to bypasses along the US 69 corridor and you've got an ongoing recipe for inaction.  ODOT seems content to do "spot" projects like the Durant and Calera upgrades every once in a while, but nothing on a larger scale (or stage!).   

There's been some work around McAlester the last year or two. Most of the restaurants and gas stations are on one-way frontage roads accessed by slip ramps. Still, not a full upgrade though.
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

sparker

Quote from: US71 on November 24, 2018, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: sparker on November 24, 2018, 03:57:52 PM


OK has had their portion of the US 69/(75) corridor pre-approved as an Interstate (at least as far north as I-40; see "section 1174" of ISTEA) for 27 years and have yet to make a move in that direction.  It's not just the funds -- or lack thereof -- it's the will to actually engage in large-scale and highly visible expenditures of public funds; that concept appears to be anathema to the string of OK state administrations over the last few decades (unless it's a toll project like the 40/44 connector east of OKC).  Add to that the local resistance to bypasses along the US 69 corridor and you've got an ongoing recipe for inaction.  ODOT seems content to do "spot" projects like the Durant and Calera upgrades every once in a while, but nothing on a larger scale (or stage!).   

There's been some work around McAlester the last year or two. Most of the restaurants and gas stations are on one-way frontage roads accessed by slip ramps. Still, not a full upgrade though.


Like I said earlier, "spot fixes" for local squeaky wheels.  The US 70 E-W Durant bypass fits into that category, along with the Idabel expressway bypass well to the east (that one's about 20 years old now!).  It'll be interesting to see if the planned Muskogee US 69 bypass, big by comparison, ever hits the letting stage!

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: sparker on November 24, 2018, 06:17:15 PM
Quote from: US71 on November 24, 2018, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: sparker on November 24, 2018, 03:57:52 PM


OK has had their portion of the US 69/(75) corridor pre-approved as an Interstate (at least as far north as I-40; see "section 1174" of ISTEA) for 27 years and have yet to make a move in that direction.  It's not just the funds -- or lack thereof -- it's the will to actually engage in large-scale and highly visible expenditures of public funds; that concept appears to be anathema to the string of OK state administrations over the last few decades (unless it's a toll project like the 40/44 connector east of OKC).  Add to that the local resistance to bypasses along the US 69 corridor and you've got an ongoing recipe for inaction.  ODOT seems content to do "spot" projects like the Durant and Calera upgrades every once in a while, but nothing on a larger scale (or stage!).   

There's been some work around McAlester the last year or two. Most of the restaurants and gas stations are on one-way frontage roads accessed by slip ramps. Still, not a full upgrade though.


Like I said earlier, "spot fixes" for local squeaky wheels.  The US 70 E-W Durant bypass fits into that category, along with the Idabel expressway bypass well to the east (that one's about 20 years old now!).  It'll be interesting to see if the planned Muskogee US 69 bypass, big by comparison, ever hits the letting stage!
OKDOT had the project under the major projects page and then it suddenly disappeared a year ago after only being on there for about 3 months or so.

Bobby5280

At least they have plans to upgrade US-69 in McAlester. They've laid the ground work for it with the frontage roads. There's plans for a Muskogee bypass as well. In the end it's all about money. The only thing that could get these projects moving quickly at all is if the federal government launches a major infrastructure program and actually spends some of the money in Oklahoma. Until then the upgrades are going to happen very slowly, one small piece at a time.

The anti freeway crowds in places like Stringtown won't be able to hold out forever. Outside of OKC and Tulsa very few other cities and towns in Oklahoma are gaining population. Lawton has lost 5000 people over the past few years (the city limits population peaked at 98000 in 2012 and is now down to 93000). The smaller more rural towns are shedding people at a faster pace. Very few young people are staying. If the current political orthodoxy continues young people will continue fleeing to cities (often out of state) to raise their families -if they can afford to start families. Our teachers are going to keep leaving for better pay in other states. Long term our state's ideology will render a bunch of places, such as Stringtown into ghost towns. And then there won't be any problem converting US-69 into an Interstate. It will just be a matter of removing a bunch of intersections and driveways to nowhere.

Road Hog

Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 24, 2018, 06:55:59 PM
The anti freeway crowds in places like Stringtown won't be able to hold out forever. Outside of OKC and Tulsa very few other cities and towns in Oklahoma are gaining population. Lawton has lost 5000 people over the past few years (the city limits population peaked at 98000 in 2012 and is now down to 93000). The smaller more rural towns are shedding people at a faster pace. Very few young people are staying. If the current political orthodoxy continues young people will continue fleeing to cities (often out of state) to raise their families -if they can afford to start families. Our teachers are going to keep leaving for better pay in other states. Long term our state's ideology will render a bunch of places, such as Stringtown into ghost towns. And then there won't be any problem converting US-69 into an Interstate. It will just be a matter of removing a bunch of intersections and driveways to nowhere.
In Stringtown's case it may be more of a reaction to the potential loss of ticket revenue than anything else. Notorious speed trap.

Durant is one of the few places in the state that is holding its own if not growing. They've got the casino, and if you squint hard enough it's commutable to Dallas.

Bobby5280

Quote from: Road HogIn Stringtown's case it may be more of a reaction to the potential loss of ticket revenue than anything else. Notorious speed trap.

If that's the case then it's all the more reason to convert US-69 into a freeway through there. A police department or small community should not be relying on speeding ticket revenue to pay significant amounts of their budgets. The local tax base (along with state and federal sources) should be paying those bills.

Ultimately the policy of setting up speed traps is bad for local business. Perhaps others could feel different, but if I get pulled over in some small town's speed trap I'm not going to make any additional stops there to buy anything. Further, I'm not going to buy anything there on any future trips through there. And I might just pick a different route (like the combo of I-35 & I-44) to avoid that region entirely.

Upgrading US-69 into a freeway (possibly I-45) would be a good thing for towns like Atoka and Stringtown. It would bring more commerce and more development through that area and do more to help those local tax bases.

Quote from: Road HogDurant is one of the few places in the state that is holding its own if not growing. They've got the casino, and if you squint hard enough it's commutable to Dallas.

Choctaw Casino is fairly nice and probably attracts a decent number of people from Texas. But there's no reason for gamblers from Texas to drive any farther North. WinStar Casino on I-35 in Thackerville is a much bigger attraction.

US 89

Does Oklahoma not have a law limiting the percentage of income a town can get from traffic tickets? Sounds like that would be a good idea for some of these towns. I know Utah recently passed a law requiring traffic tickets to be no more than 25% of a town's total revenue.

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: US 89 on November 26, 2018, 04:39:56 PM
Does Oklahoma not have a law limiting the percentage of income a town can get from traffic tickets? Sounds like that would be a good idea for some of these towns. I know Utah recently passed a law requiring traffic tickets to be no more than 25% of a town's total revenue.
It really ought to be more like 10 or 15 percent max. There should also be laws requiring speed limits to be set at the 85th percentile. If people are driving too fast, than modify the road itself, not the speed limit sign.

hotdogPi

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 26, 2018, 04:50:06 PM
There should also be laws requiring speed limits to be set at the 85th percentile.

"I'll drive more slowly so that the speed limit will go down." And the inverse.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.



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