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Author Topic: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?  (Read 1167 times)

usends

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When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« on: January 10, 2023, 07:16:34 PM »

NYSDOT (or its predecessor) was notorious for rejecting many of the US routes that were originally proposed in the 1920s.  For this reason, there were several US routes that ended at the NY state line.  AASHO's 1927 route log shows that US 2 was included among those routes, because the original description had it ending at the NY/VT line just east of Rouses Point.  Of course in more recent times NYSDOT does signpost a one-mile segment of US 2.  What year did they finally agree to accept the US 2 designation?
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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2023, 08:09:40 PM »

NYSDOT (or its predecessor) was notorious for rejecting many of the US routes that were originally proposed in the 1920s.  For this reason, there were several US routes that ended at the NY state line.  AASHO's 1927 route log shows that US 2 was included among those routes, because the original description had it ending at the NY/VT line just east of Rouses Point.  Of course in more recent times NYSDOT does signpost a one-mile segment of US 2.  What year did they finally agree to accept the US 2 designation?
It was sometime in 1930, according to this article from USEnds.com.
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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2023, 08:18:57 PM »

Rouses Point Bridge opened 7/16/1937. My 1935 map still has it ending at the VT line with the ferry.  I am trying to dig out my other maps, but I would work around 7/16/1937 for now.
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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2023, 01:30:06 AM »

NYSDOT (or its predecessor) was notorious for rejecting many of the US routes that were originally proposed in the 1920s.  For this reason, there were several US routes that ended at the NY state line.  AASHO's 1927 route log shows that US 2 was included among those routes, because the original description had it ending at the NY/VT line just east of Rouses Point.  Of course in more recent times NYSDOT does signpost a one-mile segment of US 2.  What year did they finally agree to accept the US 2 designation?
It was sometime in 1930, according to this article from USEnds.com.

Big of them.
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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2023, 11:44:50 AM »

NYSDOT (or its predecessor) was notorious for rejecting many of the US routes that were originally proposed in the 1920s.  For this reason, there were several US routes that ended at the NY state line.  AASHO's 1927 route log shows that US 2 was included among those routes, because the original description had it ending at the NY/VT line just east of Rouses Point.  Of course in more recent times NYSDOT does signpost a one-mile segment of US 2.  What year did they finally agree to accept the US 2 designation?
It was sometime in 1930, according to this article from USEnds.com.

Anyone else see the unintended irony in this reply?  :-D
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kramie13

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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2023, 12:07:47 PM »

Is there a reason why there are two "separate" US 2's?  You don't see this with other US routes anywhere else in the entire nation.

Also, how did New England get almost all "single digit" US routes?
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2023, 12:17:16 PM »

Couldn't you have gotten just as much information about the eastern US 2 from this site?: https://www.usends.com/2e.html. I did notice one difference between the "Wayback" version and the "modern" version:

1926-present
East: Houlton, ME
West: Rouses Point, NY
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74/171FAN

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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2023, 12:42:29 PM »

^Did you notice who the original poster is?
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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2023, 12:52:32 PM »

Anyone else see the unintended irony in this reply?  :-D

At least |74/171FAN| did...
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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2023, 08:00:00 PM »

Some people have trouble putting 2 and 2 together...


(yes, I went there)
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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2023, 02:08:45 PM »

Is there a reason why there are two "separate" US 2's?  You don't see this with other US routes anywhere else in the entire nation.

Also, how did New England get almost all "single digit" US routes?

1. US 422 says hello.

2. With the way the numbering grid was set up, the lowest numbers are in the north and the east. The interstate grid has the lowest numbers in the west and south; it's a quirk of geography that Florida juts farther south than California and gets I-4 while California and Arizona have I-8.
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Mapmikey

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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2023, 03:34:22 PM »

NYSDOT (or its predecessor) was notorious for rejecting many of the US routes that were originally proposed in the 1920s.  For this reason, there were several US routes that ended at the NY state line.  AASHO's 1927 route log shows that US 2 was included among those routes, because the original description had it ending at the NY/VT line just east of Rouses Point.  Of course in more recent times NYSDOT does signpost a one-mile segment of US 2.  What year did they finally agree to accept the US 2 designation?

Still trying to find historical info.  No annual highway reports for New York seem to be available later than 1922.

Found something related, though.  The 1942 Clinton County map shows US 11 where it is now and US 9 using Church St to the Canada line.  The 1943 topo you have on the Rouses Pt page mislabels where US 9 is.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/24066755?objectPage=2

unfortunately, the 1940 census map of Clinton County is one of those rural delivery maps that does not show highway route numbers.

The Grand Isle County Vermont 1940 census map is from 1937 and shows US 2 on the new bridge.  The 1932 Vermont Official seems to show uS 2 bending southwest to the ferry - https://vermonthistoryexplorer.org/state-maps#bookgallery11

The ferry was direct to the center of Rouses Pt, so if US 2 existed before the bridge, its end point was the current US 11-NY 9B jct.

The 1934 jr auto trails map seems to clearly show the Church St routing as a US route and the current US 11 route as not one.
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~317168~90086062:Junior-Auto-Road-Map-of-New-England?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:new%20york%201934;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=34&trs=63

The May 1932 NY Official (the only old one i could find) shows only 1 road north out of Rouses Pt.  Go to the AASHO database (https://grmservices.grmims.com/vsearch/portal/public/na4/aashto/default), then to 1933 Other for US 6:
https://na4.visualvault.com/app/AASHTO/Default/documentviewer?DhID=06c29b8d-50e6-ea11-a98a-ff9beffbfef8&hidemenu=true
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froggie

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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2023, 04:35:28 PM »

The Grand Isle County Vermont 1940 census map is from 1937 and shows US 2 on the new bridge.  The 1932 Vermont Official seems to show uS 2 bending southwest to the ferry - https://vermonthistoryexplorer.org/state-maps#bookgallery11

The ferry was direct to the center of Rouses Pt, so if US 2 existed before the bridge, its end point was the current US 11-NY 9B jct.

This map makes it a little more clear that US 2 went to the ferry landing at/near Windmill Point (south of the bridge).  The map does not show US 302 so its vintage is no later than 1935.
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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2023, 07:07:00 PM »

This 1907 map shows the Vermont ferry landing was about halfway down Windmill Pt, connecting with a Rouses landing located right where Mike said (current jct. US 11 and NY 9B). 
But I agree with Adam Moss' speculation earlier in this thread: I would be really surprised if NYSDOT acknowledged US 2 before there was a bridge (but so far no proof).
On the other hand, you all are turning up quite a bit of evidence for a previously-unknown US 9 and/or US 11 endpoint at the location of the current NY 276 / QC 221 crossing.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2023, 09:49:33 AM by usends »
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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2023, 08:28:30 PM »

The 1934 US Route booklet shows US 2 in Vermont going through Grand Isle then after 25 miles to Rouses Pt, NY (no separate paragraph for NY).  See pg. 7 here (go to AASHO database first): https://na4.visualvault.com/app/AASHTO/Default/documentviewer?DhID=2c35539e-4be6-ea11-a98a-ff9beffbfef8&hidemenu=true

I don't know how much straightening out US 2 has had but it is 23.7 miles from Grand Isle to the end of Windmill Pt.  It is slightly over 1 mile across the lake to Rouses Point.

Here's proof US 11 was not signed with US 9 in the early days.  This is the Holland Hotel on the corner of Lake and State - https://www.hippostcard.com/listing/hotel-holland-rouses-point-new-york/27015848

Here is a different photo at the same location with a US 9 shield - https://www.cardcow.com/308205/rouses-point-new-york-lake-street/

Later they were co-signed but the date is unknown so don't know if this was after 1942 when they each went to Canada.

This house is here - https://goo.gl/maps/FXfRJzcc14y3kXZn6
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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2023, 09:39:56 PM »

This 1907 map shows the Vermont ferry landing was about halfway down Windmill Pt,

Whatever video that is is not showing (at least not for me).  But based on early topographic maps, the ferry landing on the Vermont side was about equivalent to where Town Hwy 20 meets Windmill Point Rd.

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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2023, 10:07:17 AM »

The May 1932 NY Official (the only old one i could find) shows only 1 road north out of Rouses Pt.  Go to the AASHO database (https://grmservices.grmims.com/vsearch/portal/public/na4/aashto/default), then to 1933 Other for US 6:
https://na4.visualvault.com/app/AASHTO/Default/documentviewer?DhID=06c29b8d-50e6-ea11-a98a-ff9beffbfef8&hidemenu=true
Current US 11 north from Rouses Point was legislated as a state highway (9225) in 1934, and the US 2 bridge approach (SH 1956) in 1936.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_U.S._Roads/New_York/Resources/Notes_by_county/Clinton
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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2023, 01:29:37 PM »

The 1934 US Route booklet shows US 2 in Vermont going through Grand Isle then after 25 miles to Rouses Pt, NY (no separate paragraph for NY).
Yes, and it was the same on AASHO's 1929 and '42 route logs: "Rouses Point NY" was listed, but it was shown under the "Vermont" heading rather than under "New York", so kind of ambiguous I think.

Whatever video that is is not showing (at least not for me).  But based on early topographic maps, the ferry landing on the Vermont side was about equivalent to where Town Hwy 20 meets Windmill Point Rd.
I edited that post so now the animated gif is embedded, but anyway I agree with the location you identified.  Based on NE2's post, it looks like the Windmill Point landing is where US 2 ended until at least 1936, more likely 1937 (when the bridge was complete), or possibly even later (I haven't found anything from VT or NY asking AASHO to extend US 2 across the new bridge).

Current US 11 north from Rouses Point was legislated as a state highway (9225) in 1934, and the US 2 bridge approach (SH 1956) in 1936.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_U.S._Roads/New_York/Resources/Notes_by_county/Clinton
So now I'm wondering if US 9 ever ended at the eastern crossing (QC 223) before it was rerouted to Champlain in 1946.  Or did US 9 remain at the western crossing (QC 221), even after US 11 was extended to the eastern crossing in 1934? (as illustrated on this 1942 map that Mike found). 
This 1939 map suggests two US routes going to two different border crossings.  So does this 1940 map.
But then these maps (1944, 1948, and 1956) all suggest that US 11 did not make it all the way up to the eastern (QC 223) border crossing, but rather ended at its jct. with US 2.
The 1956 topo and the 1959 Gousha both support that (shown on the bottom of my Rouses page). 
« Last Edit: January 15, 2023, 01:48:23 PM by usends »
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Mapmikey

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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2023, 06:18:20 PM »

Take a look at the 1947 AASHO application to move US 9 to Champlain -https://na4.visualvault.com/app/AASHTO/Default/documentviewer?DhID=d8ae2bd8-33e6-ea11-a98a-ff9beffbfef8&hidemenu=true

It shows (see map on pp 19-20) US 9 using US 11's current route.  NY actually wanted to renumber it US 9 ALT.  There is NO mention of US 11 anywhere in the document.  But the post card I linked to earlier definitely has US 9 and US 11 co-posted in Rouses Pt.

Also when was it moved from the original border crossing still shown as US 9 on the 1942 Clinton County map?

As for US 2, it is possible applying to AASHO wasn't necessary because AASHO already said it ended there.  NY didn't have to accept in their system before the bridge was built because there was probably no public road between the US 9-11 jct and the ferry landing.

Can't speak to US 11's extension.  The 1934 booklet does not carry it to Canada but does explicitly say US 9 does.
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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2023, 12:47:20 PM »

Take a look at the 1947 AASHO application to move US 9 to Champlain -https://na4.visualvault.com/app/AASHTO/Default/documentviewer?DhID=d8ae2bd8-33e6-ea11-a98a-ff9beffbfef8&hidemenu=true
It shows (see map on pp 19-20) US 9 using US 11's current route.  NY actually wanted to renumber it US 9 ALT.  There is NO mention of US 11 anywhere in the document.  But the post card I linked to earlier definitely has US 9 and US 11 co-posted in Rouses Pt.
Also when was it moved from the original border crossing still shown as US 9 on the 1942 Clinton County map?

So we have a ~1946 map showing US 9 going to the eastern/223 crossing.  But I think it must've been only a very brief time that US 9 went there, because we have 1942 and 1944 maps that both show US 9 going to the western/221 crossing, and US 9 was rerouted to the Champlain crossing in 1947.  At the time of that change, it's clear there was a lot of numbering coordination between NY and Quebec: they rerouted both vanilla Route 9's to Champlain, and both agreed to use the Route 9B designation to meet at what is now the eastern/223 crossing.  (NY initially wanted old US 9 through Rouses to be designated Alt US 9, but then apparently changed to 9B in order to coordinate with Quebec.)  It seems US 11 was routed all the way to the eastern/223 crossing during at least part of the '30s and '40s, but around 1947 (when NY and QC agreed on Route 9B) it appears that US 11 was truncated to its jct. with US 2 (this is reflected on maps from the mid-'40s through at least 1960).  I don't know what year Quebec renumbered their routes 9, 9A, and 9B to the current designations, but I suspect that change is what prompted NY to truncate 9B to its current endpoint and to re-extend the US 11 designation to its current border crossing.
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usends

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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2023, 08:36:08 PM »

Thanks to this discussion, and the maps and previously-unknown endpoints uncovered here, I have completed a major revision to the Rouses Point/Champlain page, including some speculation about the reasons why NYSDOT retracted and re-extended the US routes to the various border crossings.
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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2023, 10:06:55 AM »

Some people have trouble putting 2 and 2 together...

Very well done!  :-D
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Re: When did NYSDOT "accept" the US 2 designation?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2023, 01:50:13 PM »

Thanks to this discussion, and the maps and previously-unknown endpoints uncovered here, I have completed a major revision to the Rouses Point/Champlain page, including some speculation about the reasons why NYSDOT retracted and re-extended the US routes to the various border crossings.

In the Lake St/Champlain St photo (the larger one, not the trailblazer sign blow-up), I think it's worth mentioning again that that's where the ferry landing was.  The previously-mentioned ferry historical marker is actually within the field of view of that intersection photo.
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