I-5 Columbia River Crossing (OR/WA)

[kkt]

It's also not that unusual for a housing developer to start a streetcar and subsidize its operation for a couple of years until all the houses in the development are sold and then turn it over to the city or county to pay for out of the general fund.

[Bruce]

Operational funds? You mean like--forever?

C-TRAN (the public transit authority of Clark County) is being asked to contribute $6.8 million annually for operations and maintenance. They can raise their sales tax by another 0.2% with voter approval, but otherwise are maxed out on revenue and would have to cut bus service, which defeats the whole point of running light rail to just Vancouver. The assumption is that feeder buses can drive more people to light rail without having to build expensive and large park-and-ride lots at the stations, but if the bus connections are poor few people will bother.

Max needs to fund their own operations.

No transit system in the country entirely funds their own operations, much like how highways don't pay for themselves. It is silly to impose such a burden when the priority should be a complete multimodal transportation system.

[roadman65]

https://katu.com/news/local/expert-warns-interstate-5-bridge-toll-could-reach-20

[Rothman]

https://katu.com/news/local/expert-warns-interstate-5-bridge-toll-could-reach-20

https://katu.com/news/local/expert-warns-interstate-5-bridge-toll-could-reach-20

Can't toll a bridge if you never build it.

That article was shared practically everywhere else on the Internet.

[Bruce]

https://katu.com/news/local/expert-warns-interstate-5-bridge-toll-could-reach-20

The "expert" quoted is Bob Ortblad, who has been pushing for submerged tunnels to replace all the state ferries and is militantly anti-transit. He sincerely believes that a Bremerton-Seattle tunnel would cost under $500 million, which is just lunacy.

The Interstate Bridge Replacement is going to go past its original estimates, but I doubt WA and OR would use toll revenue to backfill the difference. It's just not going to work politically.

[Plutonic Panda]

This would probably involve adding more lanes, but if they're not a way, they could have like one or two lanes each way be variably priced which could ultimately include tolls as high as $20 so as long as traffic keeps moving, and then have the other lanes place that at set toll?

And as much as I love tunnels, and given a scenario where we had infinite money for this project, I probably would support a tunnel option with rail, there is no way that that would be cheaper than a bridge especially in the US. Plus, you have the issue of a bike pedestrian path. I would much rather bike or walk over a bridge then through a very long tunnel.

Now I've never been to the Portland Metro area, but based on what I know about it, it seems to be a community more focused on active and mass transportation versus cars. I'm not sure if the same can be said about Vancouver, Washington which seems to be pretty dead, set against light rail, going to it.

So whoever that guy is his argument, seem like a pretty big non-starter.

And honestly, at this point, I wouldn't care if they didn't even add lanes and just kept it two or three lanes each way. Just get the goddamn motherfucker built. For me it's whatever about the light rail component. I'm not sure if I would ever use it when I inevitably visit the Portland Metro. But I do tend to like to explore things, and I could see myself using it. I know for sure I'll definitely either run or bike across the pedestrian path.

But Christ Almighty on a stick it is time to stop talking about this thing and just get it done. The the longer this drags out the more this thing is gonna cost, which already has an outrageous price tag. Would it not be beneficial to just completely indefinitely shelve the rose quarter project and put all of those funds to this bridge?

[kkt]

https://katu.com/news/local/expert-warns-interstate-5-bridge-toll-could-reach-20

The "expert" quoted is Bob Ortblad, who has been pushing for submerged tunnels to replace all the state ferries and is militantly anti-transit. He sincerely believes that a Bremerton-Seattle tunnel would cost under $500 million, which is just lunacy.

The Interstate Bridge Replacement is going to go past its original estimates, but I doubt WA and OR would use toll revenue to backfill the difference. It's just not going to work politically.

$500 million?  Yeah, in 1950, maybe.

[Bruce]

Now I've never been to the Portland Metro area, but based on what I know about it, it seems to be a community more focused on active and mass transportation versus cars. I'm not sure if the same can be said about Vancouver, Washington which seems to be pretty dead, set against light rail, going to it.

Vancouver is not against light rail, it's the more conservative areas in the county that keep dragging out the conversation. The big dispute right now is not whether to build light rail, but how to fund the local share without cutting bus service.

[Plutonic Panda]

Now I've never been to the Portland Metro area, but based on what I know about it, it seems to be a community more focused on active and mass transportation versus cars. I'm not sure if the same can be said about Vancouver, Washington which seems to be pretty dead, set against light rail, going to it.

Vancouver is not against light rail, it's the more conservative areas in the county that keep dragging out the conversation. The big dispute right now is not whether to build light rail, but how to fund the local share without cutting bus service.

Interesting. I had thought there was an issue of resistance locally on the washington side about the influence of MAX and who was going to pay for operations of the light rail once built.

[roadman65]

https://katu.com/news/local/expert-warns-interstate-5-bridge-toll-could-reach-20

The "expert" quoted is Bob Ortblad, who has been pushing for submerged tunnels to replace all the state ferries and is militantly anti-transit. He sincerely believes that a Bremerton-Seattle tunnel would cost under $500 million, which is just lunacy.

The Interstate Bridge Replacement is going to go past its original estimates, but I doubt WA and OR would use toll revenue to backfill the difference. It's just not going to work politically.

Well considering New York charges congestion pricing i wouldn't be surprised if another place would implement a $20 toll.

Although I'm glad it's a political wacko only proposing this and that this kind of outrageous stuff won't happen there.

[Bruce]

Well considering New York charges congestion pricing i wouldn't be surprised if another place would implement a $20 toll.

The tolerance for tolling is very low out west. NYC might as well be a different universe.

[kkt]

Yes.  What New York City can get away with charging for congestion pricing has nothing to do with what Portland could charge.  For one thing, New York has a terrific subway system, while Portland has a small one.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yes.  What New York City can get away with charging for congestion pricing has nothing to do with what Portland could charge.  For one thing, New York has a terrific subway system, while Portland has a small one.

Portland has a subway? I had heard about plans for MAX to study a potential tunnel downtown but do they currently have any tunnels?

On that note, having never been to Portland and not being too big of a fan of at grade running rail systems, how does Portland's metro rail system run? Does it work efficiently?

[Bruce]

Portland has a subway? I had heard about plans for MAX to study a potential tunnel downtown but do they currently have any tunnels?

There's a tunnel from Sunset TC to Providence Park that has the deepest station in the Western Hemisphere.

On that note, having never been to Portland and not being too big of a fan of at grade running rail systems, how does Portland's metro rail system run? Does it work efficiently?

They need the downtown tunnel to unclog the capacity limitations at the Steel Bridge. Outside of downtown, it runs pretty smoothly and has signal priority or uses off-street ROW. The frequency could be better (enabled by a downtown tunnel) and the car lengths are capped by the downtown block sizes, however.

[Plutonic Panda]

Got it. Looking at a map, that island between Vancouver and Portland is pretty Car centric. I wonder if they will try to build some TODs on it once they get light rail across it.

[Bruce]

Got it. Looking at a map, that island between Vancouver and Portland is pretty Car centric. I wonder if they will try to build some TODs on it once they get light rail across it.

The point of Hayden Island is to be a tax-free shopping stop on the way home to Vancouver. It's going to get a terrible station that abuts the interchange, so very little potential for good development.

It's also in a major hazard zone. Vanport was just across from there until it was destroyed in floods.

[roadman65]

Yes.  What New York City can get away with charging for congestion pricing has nothing to do with what Portland could charge.  For one thing, New York has a terrific subway system, while Portland has a small one.

Well I wasn't referring to the mentality of New York as much as what unexpected things occur in such modern times we live in.

East Coast verses West Coast one could say are different.  Look at the amount of US route designations between the two.   East Coast kept the ones interstates replaced while the West Coast decommissioned the ones the interstate freeways replaced.  However that's another story.

[Plutonic Panda]

Got it. Looking at a map, that island between Vancouver and Portland is pretty Car centric. I wonder if they will try to build some TODs on it once they get light rail across it.

The point of Hayden Island is to be a tax-free shopping stop on the way home to Vancouver. It's going to get a terrible station that abuts the interchange, so very little potential for good development.

It's also in a major hazard zone. Vanport was just across from there until it was destroyed in floods.

I'm not sure about the flooding situation, but it seems to me if Dunwright they could retrofit the existing development and build parking garages with new ground level retail and create basically a pedestrian Paseo and several areas. Mix it in with some apartments. I think there's some opportunity here.