A funny thing happened a little over 20 years ago.. what had always been signed as US-1/US-9 started being signed as US-1&9 and US-1-9. Yeah, It's 1 and 9, but seriously.. where else does this ever occur? Is this the only exception?
MD 2-4. Not many instances where two single-digit routes multiplex for any length, let alone anything more than several hundred feet.
Because Georgia.
You'll see the occasional 2+ in one shield, usually installed by cities on side streets.
http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/mo/i-44/
http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/mo/i-70/
http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/in/i-70/65.html
And stuff like the 5-10 about halfway down here: http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/ma/us_5/
Quote from: _Simon on July 28, 2013, 11:30:15 PM
A funny thing happened a little over 20 years ago.. what had always been signed as US-1/US-9 started being signed as US-1&9 and US-1-9. Yeah, It's 1 and 9, but seriously.. where else does this ever occur? Is this the only exception?
I think they just decided to do it. I'm not aware of it being done elsewhere in New Jersey or in the tristate area. They may have figured that US 1 and US 9 and multiplexed for such a long distance that people don't even think of it as two separate routes anymore.
The Simon Mall developing company that owns many shopping malls, has US 17 & 92 leaving the Parking lot of the Florida Mall in Orlando, FL as 17/92 in a shield. In Central Florida both routes multiplexed seem to be considered as one road: Seventeen Ninetytwo and do not even think many think of it as two separate routes but as one as it is a long way to the point (especially from Orlando) where the two routes split from most of Central Florida. In fact where US 17 & 92 are both concurrent with US 441 and SR 50, they are not even realized by many. Orange Blossom Trail is just US 441 or Colonial Drive is SR 50 where US 17 & 92 come in.
However, if both were one digit numbers you might see FDOT combining two route numbers into one like Simon Malls did.
Back to NJ, I think if US 202 & 206 in Somerset County were not 3 digit numbers NJDOT would consider them both for one shield as both routes equally share the limelight in their 7 mile overlap. Further south you have the US 40 & 322 overlap where most consider the two routes as just "Route 40." In this case you would never see it in one shield even if they both were one digits, and as far as US 130 & NJ 33 goes it could never happen for obvious reasons.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 29, 2013, 08:57:21 AM
The Simon Mall developing company that owns many shopping malls, has US 17 & 92 leaving the Parking lot of the Florida Mall in Orlando, FL as 17/92 in a shield. In Central Florida both routes multiplexed seem to be considered as one road: Seventeen Ninetytwo and do not even think many think of it as two separate routes but as one as it is a long way to the point (especially from Orlando) where the two routes split from most of Central Florida. In fact where US 17 & 92 are both concurrent with US 441 and SR 50, they are not even realized by many. Orange Blossom Trail is just US 441 or Colonial Drive is SR 50 where US 17 & 92 come in.
However, if both were one digit numbers you might see FDOT combining two route numbers into one like Simon Malls did.
Back to NJ, I think if US 202 & 206 in Somerset County were not 3 digit numbers NJDOT would consider them both for one shield as both routes equally share the limelight in their 7 mile overlap. Further south you have the US 40 & 322 overlap where most consider the two routes as just "Route 40." In this case you would never see it in one shield even if they both were one digits, and as far as US 130 & NJ 33 goes it could never happen for obvious reasons.
I think I saw US 40/322 combined once, on one of those road construction signs that announces the project and the cost of the project (in other words, not an official sign). The font was, um, small.
As for US 1&9, in a way the combo actually helps. Usually when a road is mentioned on tv, radio or in print, only one route is mentioned when there's an overlap. When the traffic reports/news stories mentioned US 1&9, you have a much more specific area of where they are referring.
At least it's not as ugly as this interstate shield combo I saw near Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis, back on August 22, 2010:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FaFKsoNp.jpg&hash=91962f809cdf256e763e001780a16eca5e65c2d3)
P.S. Wish those gas prices were still around now. Better than $3.919 up the street from me!
Some people in CT call the Berlin Turnpike Route 5-15. Some even just refer to it as Route 15 because Route 15 is longer in CT than US 5. Wonder if they use the same format for the 6-15 concurrency in ME.
^^ Along those same lines, I-80 and I-94 in Indiana is referred to as just "eighty ninety-four". Same with the Indiana Toll Road which is commonly referred to as "eighty ninety". Neither has shields with both interstate numbers on the same shield.
I've used both Berlin Turnpike and "5/15". However, when I worked at the Walmart on said road, we most often went with just Berlin Turnpike. I'll bet if we called it the Wilbur Cross Highway, some people would've looked at us funny. :)
Quote from: roadman65 on July 29, 2013, 08:57:21 AM
The Simon Mall developing company that owns many shopping malls, has US 17 & 92 leaving the Parking lot of the Florida Mall in Orlando, FL as 17/92 in a shield.
I've seen plenty of places where a sign posted by a private company at the exit from their property has the wrong route shield. I guess that the people doing it don't pay all that much attention to the distinctions between different types of route classifications.
*notes that MD 2-4 is the only other case where the state agency is intentionally issuing hyphenated shields, instead of a city job or one-off by a developer*
Quote from: Steve on July 29, 2013, 07:52:24 PM*notes that MD 2-4 is the only other case where the state agency is intentionally issuing hyphenated shields, instead of a city job or one-off by a developer*
This may be true for overlaps of single-digit routes, but it is not true of overlaps in general. There are plenty of examples in St. Louis and Indianapolis which were installed by the state DOT and are diagrammed in construction plans.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on July 29, 2013, 03:50:10 PM
Some people in CT call the Berlin Turnpike Route 5-15. Some even just refer to it as Route 15 because Route 15 is longer in CT than US 5. Wonder if they use the same format for the 6-15 concurrency in ME.
I don't think combined references in terms of how people refer to roads are all that odd. When I lived in Durham, NC, the concurrency of US-15 and US-501 (bypass route located to the west of Duke University and continuing to Chapel Hill) was invariably called "15/501." Back when I was a little kid, US-29 and US-211 had a substantial overlap in Northern Virginia and were usually called "29/211."
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on July 29, 2013, 12:36:04 PM
At least it's not as ugly as this interstate shield combo I saw near Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis, back on August 22, 2010:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FaFKsoNp.jpg&hash=91962f809cdf256e763e001780a16eca5e65c2d3)
P.S. Wish those gas prices were still around now. Better than $3.919 up the street from me!
I am with you on that price! Anything is better than what we have now!
Quote from: roadman65 on July 29, 2013, 08:59:55 PM
I am with you on that price! Anything is better than what we have now!
yes, anything. (current price + $2/gallon) is better than (current price).
Like Steve pointed out, I'm specifically talking about an actual DOT using the format consistently over multiple years; not one-offs or misunderstandings as to how to sign multiplexes. I personally think a huge contributor to the 1-9 scenario is the number of shields that historically have had to accompany 1-9 on guide signs. (US-22, NJ-21, I-78, I-95/NJTP). I think if the 1/9 multiplex broke apart south of Newark Airport, we would not be seeing this; I think it's solely a product of having so many guide signs between the interchanges with I-78, the turnpike, NJ-81, it's own truck route, and the whole tunnel business. Add to that the fact that there's also TRUCK US-1-9 which normally would have to be signed with a TRUCK banner centered over US-1/US-9 (possibly with a cardinal direction over that!).
Or do you think it's simply because people for decades have pronounced it "1 and 9" as if it were one route number?
Many New Jerseyians refer to it as the one and nine, as it has its own identity, so to save on signing costs someone in DOT decided to make it a signed route in the fields.
As far as TRUCK US 1 & 9 goes, I have seen the "T" suffix for it on some signs rather than use the Truck Banner. Sort of like some states using A for Alternate or Arkansas using the "B" suffix instead of the BUSINESS banner.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 29, 2013, 11:17:29 PM
Many New Jerseyians refer to it as the one and nine, as it has its own identity, so to save on signing costs someone in DOT decided to make it a signed route in the fields.
I assume you mean "one and nine" without the definite article, since "the one and nine" would be a subway line in Manhattan that no longer exists.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 29, 2013, 11:17:29 PM
As far as TRUCK US 1 & 9 goes, I have seen the "T" suffix for it on some signs rather than use the Truck Banner. Sort of like some states using A for Alternate or Arkansas using the "B" suffix instead of the BUSINESS banner.
In state documents such as the straight line diagrams, Truck US 1/US 9 is listed as route 1T.
It may be that someone copied the information on the straight line diagram to make those signs I have seen. Yeah, I do mean one and nine as no one hardly even says Route 1 & 9 in common talk except sometimes on traffic reports, although when I lived in NJ I heard them at times say "We have a wreck on one and nine in Woodbridge" or anyplace along the duplex. The Tonnelle Avenue stretch was always Tonnelle Avenue as many announcers would consider US 1 & US 9 to follow NJ 139 into the Holland Tunnel off the Skyway.
On press releases for a construction project, NJDOT consistantly referred to it as 1&9T.
http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/commuter/roads/rt1_9t/
http://www.nj.gov/transportation/about/press/2013/022113p.shtm
One letter is easier to note than a whole word. Plus, NJDOT can has a right to call the route whatever it wants. Its not effecting what Washington calls it. Remember, NJ uses the US and interstates numbers as State route numbers for reference. Some states, like FL, GA, AL, and others have separate route numbers assigned to them and reference them on state paperwork as these numbers and not the federal route designations. NJ US 1 is State Route 1 and US 22 is State Route 22, etc. In Georgia, US 1 is State Road 4 in most of the state and the US 1 designation is for the US route network purpose only, but not identifying for state purposes.
As a traffic engineer with many projects in North Jersey and who has overseen the design of "1&9" and "1-9" route markers in signing, I can say that the density of numbered routes in this area makes the "old" way of signing, i.e. using cardinal direction, "1" shield, and separate "9" shield, very cumbersome, both to the designer and to the driver, especially around the Airport (as noted upthread). Add "Local", "Express" and "Truck" to the mix, and it really gets interesting . . .
There are places, such as up on the Skyway, where there just is not room for all the required information on the panels. It is much easier to work with a 45x36 space (one shield) than an 84x36 space (two shields with nominal space in between).
When "1&9" was first posted in the field in, I want to say, the late 1990's, the ampersand probably looked too much like a middle digit, so the "1-9" pattern was used later.
I usually see or propose "1-9T" on construction panels, but "Truck/1-9" on permanent panels. There are exceptions, and I have seen them in the field. Based on my experience, the complexity of the roadway network causes a number of construction panels to remain well past their intended purpose.
Sorry for the ramble. I just thought I would give you a bit of the designer's perspective.
Thanks, but no ramble here. It is plain and simple, and it does fit better into one sign. Like I stated US 202 & 206 could not, but luckily US 1 and US 9 are one digits so it works well especially on roads like the Skyway and around the airport. Plus, many do consider it one route anyway, especially non road geeks.
From the archival records of this site:
This style can be seen in several spots in the Shreveport area (in a few cases, the separate US 79 and US 80 shields are used).
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/LA/LA19770791i1.jpg)
A few different uses of multiples over the years in New Mexico
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/NM/NM19630561i1.jpg)
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/NM/NM19930561i1.jpg)
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/NM/NM19630621i1.jpg)
These here are impressive! Come to think of it I seen some when traveling I-25 in NM and on Dale Sandersn's US ends site.
Also I remember now that the old Egg Harbor Circle in Egg Harbor, NJ near the ACY had something similar to it for US 40 & 322. I took photos of that, but Sam's Club lost my photos, so I never got them to share or even see for myself.
Quote from: akotchi on July 30, 2013, 06:04:55 PM
As a traffic engineer with many projects in North Jersey
Ooohh! Can you link us to some signage that you've personally screwed up and/or has an interesting story behind it and/or you've hidden an Easter egg in?
Quote from: _Simon on July 30, 2013, 09:34:58 PM
Ooohh! Can you link us to some signage that you've personally screwed up and/or has an interesting story behind it and/or you've hidden an Easter egg in?
See: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=9156.0
I don't know if it was akotchi, but I recall speaking with the traffic engineer (I think it was Kevin Sylvester) who did some of the signs for the NJ-21/US-46/NJ-20 mess. The US-46 west exit for NJ-20 has a disaster of a BGS seen here: http://goo.gl/maps/Cx3zS
Note the skip lines added into the NJ-20 part of the arrow, its a one lane ramp! At one point the signs in development had US-46's arrow heading due left and crossing under the big straight arrow!
Quote from: NJRoadfan on July 30, 2013, 09:52:15 PM
Note the the skip lines added into the NJ-20 part of the arrow, its a one lane ramp! At one point the signs in development had US-46's arrow heading due left and crossing under the big straight arrow!
Not to mention that there shouldn't be line breaks in "SOUTH/GSP" or "Crooks/Ave" and I also don't like the mixed-case "To" (assuming it's even legal)
How about squeezing two county routes into one shield? Even has a bonus CR NJ-173 to link in with the other thread! http://goo.gl/maps/KVopJ
Quote from: NJRoadfan on July 30, 2013, 09:52:15 PM
Quote from: _Simon on July 30, 2013, 09:34:58 PM
Ooohh! Can you link us to some signage that you've personally screwed up and/or has an interesting story behind it and/or you've hidden an Easter egg in?
See: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=9156.0
I don't know if it was akotchi, but I recall speaking with the traffic engineer (I think it was Kevin Sylvester) who did some of the signs for the NJ-21/US-46/NJ-20 mess. The US-46 west exit for NJ-20 has a disaster of a BGS seen here: http://goo.gl/maps/Cx3zS
Note the skip lines added into the NJ-20 part of the arrow, its a one lane ramp! At one point the signs in development had US-46's arrow heading due left and crossing under the big straight arrow!
I wasn't involved in that one.
Quote from: akotchi on July 30, 2013, 06:04:55 PM
As a traffic engineer with many projects in North Jersey and who has overseen the design of "1&9" and "1-9" route markers in signing, I can say that the density of numbered routes in this area makes the "old" way of signing, i.e. using cardinal direction, "1" shield, and separate "9" shield, very cumbersome, both to the designer and to the driver, especially around the Airport (as noted upthread). Add "Local", "Express" and "Truck" to the mix, and it really gets interesting . . .
US 1-9 seems like it could be mistaken for US 19 if someone isn't paying all that close attention.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 29, 2013, 08:57:21 AM
The Simon Mall developing company that owns many shopping malls, has US 17 & 92 leaving the Parking lot of the Florida Mall in Orlando, FL as 17/92 in a shield. In Central Florida both routes multiplexed seem to be considered as one road: Seventeen Ninetytwo and do not even think many think of it as two separate routes but as one as it is a long way to the point (especially from Orlando) where the two routes split from most of Central Florida. In fact where US 17 & 92 are both concurrent with US 441 and SR 50, they are not even realized by many. Orange Blossom Trail is just US 441 or Colonial Drive is SR 50 where US 17 & 92 come in.
However, if both were one digit numbers you might see FDOT combining two route numbers into one like Simon Malls did.
Back to NJ, I think if US 202 & 206 in Somerset County were not 3 digit numbers NJDOT would consider them both for one shield as both routes equally share the limelight in their 7 mile overlap. Further south you have the US 40 & 322 overlap where most consider the two routes as just "Route 40." In this case you would never see it in one shield even if they both were one digits, and as far as US 130 & NJ 33 goes it could never happen for obvious reasons.
Ah yes, Simon Malls. They convinced MassDOT to change the name of Solomon Pond Road in Marlborough to Solomon Pond Mall Road - which was accomplished by revising the existing guide signs on I-290 with some of the worst overlays I've ever seen (letters far too close together).
Quote from: dgolub on July 31, 2013, 08:33:39 AM
Quote from: akotchi on July 30, 2013, 06:04:55 PM
As a traffic engineer with many projects in North Jersey and who has overseen the design of "1&9" and "1-9" route markers in signing, I can say that the density of numbered routes in this area makes the "old" way of signing, i.e. using cardinal direction, "1" shield, and separate "9" shield, very cumbersome, both to the designer and to the driver, especially around the Airport (as noted upthread). Add "Local", "Express" and "Truck" to the mix, and it really gets interesting . . .
US 1-9 seems like it could be mistaken for US 19 if someone isn't paying all that close attention.
Interesting point, as there is a state route 19, though not overly close (in Passaic County). I'm not quite so sure, but I am probably too close to the matter to be objective about it. Consistent use of a 3-digit shield and an em dash in between would lead me to think this would not be as much of an issue. U.S. 19 is also no where close to this area.
Probably because the people running things were too lazy to put up individual signs, and decided instead to combine the two routes together. (After all, this is the same state that refused to build the Somerset Freeway, and is paying a huge price because of it.)
Quote from: Henry on July 31, 2013, 10:32:26 AM
Probably because the people running things were too lazy to put up individual signs, and decided instead to combine the two routes together. (After all, this is the same state that refused to build the Somerset Freeway, and is paying a huge price because of it.)
I don't think you can single NJ out for laziness for falling prey to the same pressures as any other state with a highway revolt on its hands.
I personally don't think of or say the "and" in this combination. It's always been "one nine" to me (and thus "truck one nine" as well).
Quote from: Henry on July 31, 2013, 10:32:26 AM
(After all, this is the same state that refused to build the Somerset Freeway, and is paying a huge price because of it.)
It wasn't necessarily the
state that prevented it from being built, more-so the vast opposition from the people whose homes and properties would be in the way of construction. (That and the New Jersey Turnpike Authority, since building the Somerset Freeway would probably make less people use the Turnpike.)
Quote from: Henry on July 31, 2013, 10:32:26 AM
Probably because the people running things were too lazy to put up individual signs, and decided instead to combine the two routes together. (After all, this is the same state that refused to build the Somerset Freeway, and is paying a huge price because of it.)
Other states didn't complete their portions of 95 and other interstates as well. And wouldn't it be harder to create the US "1&9" sign, rather than use the multitudes of US 1 & US 9 signs that the state already has available?
Not hard to make at all . . . it is considered a 3-digit route (1-9), so a standard 3dus blank is used. By now, as common as 322, 202 or 206.
In fact, I always thought it was innovative of NJ to convert the old 1&9 (business) to 139 because they look somewhat similar. This is a case of clearly engineering to human needs rather than in spite of them.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on July 31, 2013, 05:05:23 PM
In fact, I always thought it was innovative of NJ to convert the old 1&9 (business) to 139 because they look somewhat similar. This is a case of clearly engineering to human needs rather than in spite of them.
Not unusual. Illinois did likewise with IL-38. IL-38 was formerly US-30A. Pronounce it, and you'll see why.
I like the significance of VT 279. I think it is neat the way they took the fact that road goes between routes 7 and 9 and came up with Two Seven Nine.
139, I must say, is original as it just replaces the amperstand with a "3" which from a distance could be read as one anyway.
Quote from: akotchi on July 31, 2013, 08:59:51 AM
Interesting point, as there is a state route 19, though not overly close (in Passaic County). I'm not quite so sure, but I am probably too close to the matter to be objective about it. Consistent use of a 3-digit shield and an em dash in between would lead me to think this would not be as much of an issue. U.S. 19 is also no where close to this area.
Most drivers don't know the difference between a US route and a state route. If someone is following a map with US 1 on it, they could think that they're looking at Route 19, not Routes 1 and 9.
Quote from: dgolub on July 31, 2013, 08:07:30 PM
Quote from: akotchi on July 31, 2013, 08:59:51 AM
Interesting point, as there is a state route 19, though not overly close (in Passaic County). I'm not quite so sure, but I am probably too close to the matter to be objective about it. Consistent use of a 3-digit shield and an em dash in between would lead me to think this would not be as much of an issue. U.S. 19 is also no where close to this area.
Most drivers don't know the difference between a US route and a state route. If someone is following a map with US 1 on it, they could think that they're looking at Route 19, not Routes 1 and 9.
They don't know the difference? I guess it depends on the state then. Not every state's residents use "route" or "highway" before every route number (a la Wisconsin where every damn thing is "highway" including the interstates). Some actually use a separate designator for each class of route (Michigan is one - M, US, or I).
Quote from: Zeffy on July 31, 2013, 12:22:55 PM
It wasn't necessarily the state that prevented it from being built, more-so the vast opposition from the people whose homes and properties would be in the way of construction. (That and the New Jersey Turnpike Authority, since building the Somerset Freeway would probably make less people use the Turnpike.)
1. The state has the right to condemn property for public use by paying a reasonable amount of compensation. Look at what I-78 and I-280 did to Newark. You don't build the entire turnpike in 24 months by waiting for people to move or agree with the plans.
2. The amount of traffic duplicated by the route is significantly less than many other major interstates built near the toll roads, including I-295 as an extreme example.
Quote from: dgolub on July 31, 2013, 08:07:30 PM
Quote from: akotchi on July 31, 2013, 08:59:51 AM
Interesting point, as there is a state route 19, though not overly close (in Passaic County). I'm not quite so sure, but I am probably too close to the matter to be objective about it. Consistent use of a 3-digit shield and an em dash in between would lead me to think this would not be as much of an issue. U.S. 19 is also no where close to this area.
Most drivers don't know the difference between a US route and a state route. If someone is following a map with US 1 on it, they could think that they're looking at Route 19, not Routes 1 and 9.
I know that as I get older I'm increasingly in the minority, but I barely think of NJ 19 as existing at all. Deep in my gut somewhere that's still NJ 20 (and yes, in my gut there are also Datsuns driving on it).
Quote from: dgolub on July 31, 2013, 08:07:30 PM
Quote from: akotchi on July 31, 2013, 08:59:51 AM
Interesting point, as there is a state route 19, though not overly close (in Passaic County). I'm not quite so sure, but I am probably too close to the matter to be objective about it. Consistent use of a 3-digit shield and an em dash in between would lead me to think this would not be as much of an issue. U.S. 19 is also no where close to this area.
Most drivers don't know the difference between a US route and a state route. If someone is following a map with US 1 on it, they could think that they're looking at Route 19, not Routes 1 and 9.
I knew somebody in High School who when I told him to use Route 1 & 9 he actually thought that I meant Route 19. I tried explaining to him what I meant and he found it impossible to believe that two routes can actually concur. I am sure there are some people that still do not know what you would mean when you mention two different routes as one single route number.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on July 31, 2013, 12:07:46 PM
Quote from: Henry on July 31, 2013, 10:32:26 AM
Probably because the people running things were too lazy to put up individual signs, and decided instead to combine the two routes together. (After all, this is the same state that refused to build the Somerset Freeway, and is paying a huge price because of it.)
I don't think you can single NJ out for laziness for falling prey to the same pressures as any other state with a highway revolt on its hands.
I personally don't think of or say the "and" in this combination. It's always been "one nine" to me (and thus "truck one nine" as well).
Locals say "1-n-9."
Quote from: Steve on August 01, 2013, 12:14:48 AMLocals say "1-n-9."
I learned it as a local, and it could be that I learned to (verbally and mentally) slur the "n" out of existence. This should not be taken as another example of laziness in NJ, but rather efficiency.
Quote from: _Simon on July 31, 2013, 10:32:06 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on July 31, 2013, 12:22:55 PM
It wasn't necessarily the state that prevented it from being built, more-so the vast opposition from the people whose homes and properties would be in the way of construction. (That and the New Jersey Turnpike Authority, since building the Somerset Freeway would probably make less people use the Turnpike.)
1. The state has the right to condemn property for public use by paying a reasonable amount of compensation. Look at what I-78 and I-280 did to Newark. You don't build the entire turnpike in 24 months by waiting for people to move or agree with the plans.
While they do have the right, it's a last resort. And the environment in the 1940's and 50's was way different than in today's environment.
When they were looking at reconstructing I-295 thru the 42/76 interchange, they first looked at all the possibilities, including straight-lining 295 right thru the area with a 70 mph design speed. That would have taken out 170 or so homes and businesses. The idea wasn't even pursued. The selected alternative is removing 12 homes and businesses, and some of those homes will be rebuilt in the same area on available land.
If the straight-lining alignment had been pursued in 1950, it probably would have been done. But it was a different time, and the overall design indicates that the assumption would be the majority of traffic using 295 would head towards I-76 and Philadelphia/Camden. In today's world, a large portion of travel involves 295 and 42. I-76 headed towards Philly is rarely congested during normal rush hours (although EZ Pass on the bridges is probably the main reason for that).
Quote from: Brandon on July 31, 2013, 08:11:51 PM
They don't know the difference? I guess it depends on the state then. Not every state's residents use "route" or "highway" before every route number (a la Wisconsin where every damn thing is "highway" including the interstates). Some actually use a separate designator for each class of route (Michigan is one - M, US, or I).
Most people are not road geeks. If you give the average person a US or state route shield and ask which it is, they probably wouldn't know. At least here in the Northeast.
Or an interstate shield for that matter. Everything up here is just "route".
Route 95, route 1, route 1A, etc.
Quote from: dgolub on August 01, 2013, 08:31:45 AM
Quote from: Brandon on July 31, 2013, 08:11:51 PM
They don't know the difference? I guess it depends on the state then. Not every state's residents use "route" or "highway" before every route number (a la Wisconsin where every damn thing is "highway" including the interstates). Some actually use a separate designator for each class of route (Michigan is one - M, US, or I).
Most people are not road geeks. If you give the average person a US or state route shield and ask which it is, they probably wouldn't know. At least here in the Northeast.
I find, at least in my area of NJ, many people think the state routes (NJ 45 for example) are maintained by the county.
What was really frustrating: A few years back, I submitted a few comments to the DVRPC as part of the NJ TIP review. Two of my comments, regarding US 322 in Glassboro and the intersection of NJ 42 and Cross Keys Rd (CR 689), were submitted to the COUNTY for review, even though both sections of roadway are maintained by the State. So whoever was in charge of the comments section of the DVRPC isn't even aware of the proper agency overseeing the roads in NJ. Being the TIP is a state publication, it wouldn't have even dawned on me that the comments would be submitted to a county government for review.
Alas, the responses for those two comments were basically this: "We don't have jurisdiction for that particular area". What a waste of time.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 01, 2013, 08:53:57 AM
Quote from: dgolub on August 01, 2013, 08:31:45 AM
Quote from: Brandon on July 31, 2013, 08:11:51 PM
They don't know the difference? I guess it depends on the state then. Not every state's residents use "route" or "highway" before every route number (a la Wisconsin where every damn thing is "highway" including the interstates). Some actually use a separate designator for each class of route (Michigan is one - M, US, or I).
Most people are not road geeks. If you give the average person a US or state route shield and ask which it is, they probably wouldn't know. At least here in the Northeast.
I find, at least in my area of NJ, many people think the state routes (NJ 45 for example) are maintained by the county.
What was really frustrating: A few years back, I submitted a few comments to the DVRPC as part of the NJ TIP review. Two of my comments, regarding US 322 in Glassboro and the intersection of NJ 42 and Cross Keys Rd (CR 689), were submitted to the COUNTY for review, even though both sections of roadway are maintained by the State. So whoever was in charge of the comments section of the DVRPC isn't even aware of the proper agency overseeing the roads in NJ. Being the TIP is a state publication, it wouldn't have even dawned on me that the comments would be submitted to a county government for review.
Alas, the responses for those two comments were basically this: "We don't have jurisdiction for that particular area". What a waste of time.
I think the same thing happened with the Garden State Parkway at US 22. Back in the day when NJDOT maintained the Parkway from US 22 to the NJ Turnpike, the southbound signage for Exits 140 and 140A were substandard with the Gore Directional guide signs and no overhead assemblies were present. It was not until the early or mid 90s when the NJ Highway Authority installed the typical rust looking gantries, as for years both agencies the NJDOT and NJHA thought each other had jurisdiction over the exit guides at US 22 and NJ 82, so the substandard signage remained for long after both the GSP and NJDOT modernized their guides on both sides of the changeover.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 01, 2013, 03:20:52 AM
Quote from: Steve on August 01, 2013, 12:14:48 AMLocals say "1-n-9."
I learned it as a local, and it could be that I learned to (verbally and mentally) slur the "n" out of existence. This should not be taken as another example of laziness in NJ, but rather efficiency.
I'm saying it out loud. "One 'n'" comes out as one syllable. It's a little quicker than saying "Runnin'", as if the vowel disappeared but the syllable didn't.
To summerize.
The proper way to show this multiplexed route is to use two separate shields as shown here in Newark.
"By the book"
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fraymondcmartinjr.com%2Fnjfreeways%2Fnjroadtrips%2Fus-1%26amp%3B9_truck_split.jpg&hash=88970261ea6a93b88fa9bf0fe82caaaa6c369034)
Back in the day, it was sometimes signed this way using a 3dus shield. Signs of this style appeared on Truck 1&9 around the old Charlotte Circle back in 2003 as well.
"The ampersand"
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fraymondcmartinjr.com%2Fnjfreeways%2Fnjroadtrips%2F5-01%2F1%26amp%3B9_shield.jpg&hash=1c1be130f58a7bd3c3d69458a869a4086ddfe129)
In the late 90s, someone decided that the ampersand and separate shields might be hard to read, so they decided to change things up with a hyphen. This is the way things are done presently.
"1 minus 9"
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fraymondcmartinjr.com%2Fnjfreeways%2Fnjroadtrips%2Fus-1-9_46_sld.jpg&hash=26b9612ef7a666a7288ab3c5170f1c32499afc47)
The truck route is simple enough to sign, but the proper signing like this one is rare and hard to come by. Most of the banners on this route say "TRUCKS", which there are plenty of on that road.
"Truck.... by the book"
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fraymondcmartinjr.com%2Fnjfreeways%2Fnjroadtrips%2F5-01%2Fus-1-9t_south.jpg&hash=004c8d5f2c7fe2a5129fa8f93bc807428ce3f0b9)
Of course all those separate signs are hard to keep track of and tend to go missing, so lets just consolidate everything into one shield.
"one 'n' nine-tea"
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alpsroads.net%2Froads%2Fnj%2Fus_1-9t%2Fs7.jpg&hash=be2dda52c19b544ffacd02bc2f9fbd69e2f2c406)
Then of course we have..... The Mutants
The theory of how NJ-139 got its number is the ampersand in "1&9" kinda looked like the number "3". So lets just reverse it because it seems to work that way too.
"Do The Funky Ampersand"
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fraymondcmartinjr.com%2Fnjfreeways%2Fnjroadtrips%2Fus-1%26amp%3B9_odd.jpg&hash=e2276b953bdb76ea6e28fbdbf2f42407cd9d02af)
Someone here said that one can confuse the road as being "Route 19". Perhaps they saw this ingeniously efficient design constructed with a minimum of materials formerly found in front of the Newark DMV inspection station.
"The 2dus"
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fraymondcmartinjr.com%2Fnjfreeways%2Fnjroadtrips%2Fus-1%26amp%3B9.jpg&hash=0d4e8b178c0e2a0e1945aaa8224c46f77f0fb73a)
Sign makers, never running out of new ideas, decided to go in a new direction.... vertical.
"2dus... stacked"
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alpsroads.net%2Froads%2Fnj%2Fus_1-9%2Fvertical.jpg&hash=01362ed1350f57c3aed501bf39d8691a37ed7a95)
Thats all I got.
</end thread>
Quote from: Steve on August 01, 2013, 07:42:13 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 01, 2013, 03:20:52 AM
Quote from: Steve on August 01, 2013, 12:14:48 AMLocals say "1-n-9."
I learned it as a local, and it could be that I learned to (verbally and mentally) slur the "n" out of existence. This should not be taken as another example of laziness in NJ, but rather efficiency.
I'm saying it out loud. "One 'n'" comes out as one syllable. It's a little quicker than saying "Runnin'", as if the vowel disappeared but the syllable didn't.
One n nine. One n-nine. Oneannine. Wunnannine. It's definitely locally pronounced "WUN-ən-nïne"
Those shields look like US 169 shields at first glance, a road that I am very familiar with.
What about US 56/412 signed in the same shield?
Quote from: bugo on August 02, 2013, 07:56:52 AM
Those shields look like US 169 shields at first glance, a road that I am very familiar with.
What about US 56/412 signed in the same shield?
Hell, we've got US-45/52 in the same shield in multiple locations in Kankakee, IL.
I have yet to see a US-12/20, US-12/45, or US-12/20/45 on La Grange Road or 95th Street in the same shield.
12/20 did exist, a while back anyway.
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/IL/IL19480541i1.jpg)
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/IL/IL19480122i1.jpg)
^^ Cool. I've yet to see a current one a la the US-45/52s in Kankakee. I believe Peoria/East Peoria have a few IL-8-116s around.
Quote from: _Simon on August 02, 2013, 12:49:30 AM
Quote from: Steve on August 01, 2013, 07:42:13 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 01, 2013, 03:20:52 AM
Quote from: Steve on August 01, 2013, 12:14:48 AMLocals say "1-n-9."
I learned it as a local, and it could be that I learned to (verbally and mentally) slur the "n" out of existence. This should not be taken as another example of laziness in NJ, but rather efficiency.
I'm saying it out loud. "One 'n'" comes out as one syllable. It's a little quicker than saying "Runnin'", as if the vowel disappeared but the syllable didn't.
One n nine. One n-nine. Oneannine. Wunnannine. It's definitely locally pronounced "WUN-ən-nïne"
What can I say, I lived 15 miles away from it, but it was folks right along it who got me saying simply "one nine."
Never did hear anyone say "One nine forty-six," though, because as everyone knows, that's simply "Route forty-six."
Almost makes me glad that NYSDOT won't re-extend NY 100 and 22 back into Manhattan. People might incorrectly pronounce it as "Route 122."
Reviving NY 22 in Manhattan would be okay, though.
Quote from: D-Dey65 on August 03, 2013, 08:45:54 AM
Almost makes me glad that NYSDOT won't re-extend NY 100 and 22 back into Manhattan. People might incorrectly pronounce it as "Route 122."
Reviving NY 22 in Manhattan would be okay, though.
Yeah, that would be really messed up if people called NY 100/NY 22 "Route 122."
For us road geeks, extending NY 22 back down into Manhattan would be really cool, but in practice it doesn't make sense to route long-distance traffic through the heart of a major city unless the alternate route is so roundabout that a lot of people wouldn't want to use it anyway. I recently did a post about adding NY 495 across Midtown to connect the Lincoln Tunnel and the Long Island Expressway. I would also support reinstating NY 27 across Canal Street and the Manhattan Bridge, since it's the most direct route between Brooklyn and New Jersey. However, using any of the north/south avenues in Manhattan doesn't really make sense unless you have a destination in Manhattan. The truck route network follows this idea. Trucks can use 34 Street to cross Manhattan in Midtown, and they can use Canal Street and some of the other streets in the area to get from the Holland Tunnel (I-78) to the Williamsburg Bridge and the Manhattan Bridge. However, they can't use any north/south roadway in Manhattan other than NY 9A unless they have a destination in the borough.
Having an actual street designation of NY 495 would be an excellent idea. It does have merit, but like you said 34th Street would have to be designated as TRUCK NY 495. NYSDOT does not have to maintain it as there are plenty of examples in NYS where a state route is either county or municipally maintained.
The Bronx River Parkway could be NY 22 if needed to be extended back into the city. NY Routes can be on Parkways as the case for NY 9A. NY 100 could become the lower part of the Saw Mill while NY 9A gets truncated. Since Business US 1 & 9 in New Jersey became NJ 139, NY 9A no longer serves as an alternate to US 9 so having NY 100 end at the Battery Tunnel would be a better routing than present NY 9A south of US 9 uptown.
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on July 29, 2013, 12:36:04 PM
At least it's not as ugly as this interstate shield combo I saw near Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis, back on August 22, 2010:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FaFKsoNp.jpg&hash=91962f809cdf256e763e001780a16eca5e65c2d3)
P.S. Wish those gas prices were still around now. Better than $3.919 up the street from me!
I kind of like this shield, actually...it's the first of its kind that I've ever seen. It certainly saves on assembly space!
Quote from: roadman65 on August 03, 2013, 10:42:34 AM
The Bronx River Parkway could be NY 22 if needed to be extended back into the city. NY Routes can be on Parkways as the case for NY 9A. NY 100 could become the lower part of the Saw Mill while NY 9A gets truncated. Since Business US 1 & 9 in New Jersey became NJ 139, NY 9A no longer serves as an alternate to US 9 so having NY 100 end at the Battery Tunnel would be a better routing than present NY 9A south of US 9 uptown.
Why not just resurrect the old route across East 233 Street and then down Jerome Avenue to the Macombs Dam Bridge?
As far as NY 9A goes, if anything, I'd advocate for keeping it as is and adding Truck NY 9A along Broadway up into the Bronx.
Was not NY 22 originally along the Grand Concourse? Then it went down Park Avenue in Manhattan to Grand Central to terminate there. Unfortunatlely I do not have my old maps, as it was years ago I read it as I am now 50. My dad never thought road maps would be worth anything to keep back in the 70's, so it was never saved.
What about resurrecting NY 1A again? It I remember used the Bronx River Parkway south of Fordham Road and onto Bruckner Blvd/ Expwy, then across on the Willis Avenue and Macombs Dam Bridge combo, to First and Second Avenues to Houston Street, and 6th Avenue/ Varick Street pair to the Holland Tunnel. It would keep US 1 in the city more even if it is a state route spur.