The other post concerning the side mounted traffic signals reminded me:
I think that the MUTCD should require an overhead flashing light (a single beacon would suffice since LED panels don't typically completely fail like old incandescent bulbs did, there is no need for four lights like many overdone intersections) or an overhead stop sign panel for situations where one STOP sign controls more than one traffic lane.
There are a ton of intersections like this, and under the right traffic conditions, can be very unsafe. I know 98% of the time everybody can see the STOP sign, but the need to be visible to everyone 100% of the time.
Case and point: I was traveling in the left lane of a four lane undivided street. There were three school bussed in a row in the right lane. I could not see the STOP sign at all. The only way I knew to STOP was that I saw the back of the stop sign which is for oncoming traffic. Most drivers aren't as observant as I am and would have missed this.
Here is the intersection where this occurred:
https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=33.228197,-97.583485&spn=0.000018,0.012521&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=33.228201,-97.583592&panoid=gi459eEZgZPVbUi1LgwLqg&cbp=12,73.71,,0,0 (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=33.228197,-97.583485&spn=0.000018,0.012521&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=33.228201,-97.583592&panoid=gi459eEZgZPVbUi1LgwLqg&cbp=12,73.71,,0,0)
Also, for this reason, school zone speed signs should have to be overhead under these circumstances. Florida and Tennessee are good about this, Texas ain't.
I did notice that the MUTCD now requires 36x36 STOP signs if it controls more than one lane. This is helpful, but not if large vehicles are present.
Unfortunately, some cities, like Corinth, don't have a clue, and will post one 30x30 stop sign on the right for a divided four-lane street with left turn lanes. This area is not streetviewed.
What are y'all's opinions concerning this situation?
I don't think overhead signs or signals should be required. If a four-lane (or more?) road is coming to a "stop," it can't have too high a traffic volume, and the speed limit can't be too high. (Or else someone really screwed up in the engineering phase.)
Quote from: Steve on July 29, 2013, 07:59:38 PM
I don't think overhead signs or signals should be required. If a four-lane (or more?) road is coming to a "stop," it can't have too high a traffic volume, and the speed limit can't be too high. (Or else someone really screwed up in the engineering phase.)
Except that there are many stop signs that are not warranted, but have been installed because politicians wanted them. Some of these are probably at intersections that are very far below meeting any signal warrant. St. Louis has some good examples of this.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=st.+louis&hl=en&ll=38.575267,-90.308588&spn=0.003569,0.008256&sll=41.86905,-91.671982&sspn=0.435136,1.056747&hnear=St+Louis,+Missouri&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=38.575152,-90.308568&panoid=mW11jqYSyXX61iuGhhjeSg&cbp=12,5.77,,0,11.81 (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=st.+louis&hl=en&ll=38.575267,-90.308588&spn=0.003569,0.008256&sll=41.86905,-91.671982&sspn=0.435136,1.056747&hnear=St+Louis,+Missouri&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=38.575152,-90.308568&panoid=mW11jqYSyXX61iuGhhjeSg&cbp=12,5.77,,0,11.81)
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=st.+louis&hl=en&ll=38.582702,-90.306196&spn=0.003569,0.008256&sll=41.86905,-91.671982&sspn=0.435136,1.056747&hnear=St+Louis,+Missouri&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=38.582702,-90.305807&panoid=WR6G_Zconvr0-il64cSzcw&cbp=12,268.18,,0,-0.18 (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=st.+louis&hl=en&ll=38.582702,-90.306196&spn=0.003569,0.008256&sll=41.86905,-91.671982&sspn=0.435136,1.056747&hnear=St+Louis,+Missouri&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=38.582702,-90.305807&panoid=WR6G_Zconvr0-il64cSzcw&cbp=12,268.18,,0,-0.18)
Regardless of speed limit (which may not be set right either if the stop sign is unwarranted), an accident is still an unpleasant use of time.
Quote from: Brian556Also, for this reason, school zone speed signs should have to be overhead under these circumstances.
I second this, especially for those states where the school zone speed limit is an arbitrary number that applies to all roads regardless of the number of lanes or normal speed limit.
QuoteExcept that there are many stop signs that are not warranted, but have been installed because politicians wanted them. Some of these are probably at intersections that are very far below meeting any signal warrant. St. Louis has some good examples of this.
I'm of course referring to warranted STOP signs.
We have an arterial street here with three all-way stops in a row after a signalized intersection. The first one is needed because it is at a busy high school driveway. However, due to the volume of traffic on the arterial roadway, and the nearby signal, it too should be signalized because traffic stacks up at the all way stop.
The next two are totally unwarranted. They were installed when the divided street was incomplete, and there were jogs in the arterial street where the divided street began and ended near the intersections. The divided street is now complete, so these stop signs should have been removed.
Beloit, Wisconsin: http://goo.gl/maps/GW8Tx
Gateway Boulevard / WIS-67 just north of the Illinois border has a 4-way stop with Beloit Road. Gateway/WIS-67 has 2 lanes and a left turn lane in each direction; Beloit Road has 1 lane and a left turn lane in each direction.
Speaking of overhead stop signs, how about this one at 36th Street and I-135 at Newton, KS?
http://goo.gl/maps/HkKBH
I never understood the need.
ICTRds
The only place in Bend I can think of that has a multiple lane stop sign, Revere and 4th: https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=44.067638,-121.301229&spn=0.008804,0.020406&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=44.067646,-121.301075&panoid=-FZwjYO2kSfSowa_lLrXQA&cbp=12,71.36,,0,-2.56
Looks like they did it right :)
There are lots of these intersections in Nampa though, and I don't think any of them have any stop signs except on the right. It hasn't been a problem from what I've seen, but I could see how it could cause problems, although at most of the intersections it's pretty obvous that it's a 4 way stop, even if you don't see the sign: https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=43.559675,-116.564276&spn=0.004439,0.010203&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=43.559768,-116.564219&panoid=srgco4Iy1gmvwp8pkMq5vA&cbp=12,189.66,,0,8.61
There are at least two cases on US 45 in eastern Mississippi (at MS 16/Scooba and MS 14/Macon) where there is all-way stop sign control. IIRC, MDOT posts large stop signs on both sides of each US 45 carriageway.
Madison, Wisconsin (https://www.google.com/maps?ll=43.164665,-89.285057&spn=0.000004,0.004128&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=43.164592,-89.285054&panoid=fYBFnIU3csxwdk7FXl0Vew&cbp=12,359.1,,0,16.67) - Designed for traffic signals, wired for traffic signals, meets PM warrants for traffic signals NOW, but stop signs were placed instead. :no:
Stop signs controlling multiple lanes? There's a shit-ton of locations around Chicagoland that have exactly that. Here's a few examples I know of off the top of my head:
Ingalls Av & Gael Dr/Cedarwood Dr in Joliet (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.543919,-88.146915&spn=0.034368,0.084543&t=m&z=14&layer=c&cbll=41.54389,-88.146746&panoid=UqDPYx6Ym8nUEg5eaJSfTw&cbp=12,90.55,,0,9.59).
248th Av & 103rd St in Naperville (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.694706,-88.224635&spn=0.017272,0.042272&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=41.69461,-88.224615&panoid=HRuCpktPE4_mUoHuEqbycw&cbp=12,339.96,,0,7.4).
York Rd & Madison St in Elmhurst (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.876187,-87.936931&spn=0.004306,0.010568&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=41.876187,-87.936931&panoid=RQ6z5xqYAck-f9TAFrcg7Q&cbp=12,344.53,,0,16.81).
Congress Pkwy & Ogden Av in Chicago (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.875073,-87.673903&spn=0.008612,0.021136&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=41.875065,-87.674057&panoid=6YckNIe4hpLe2eQR0dzpzg&cbp=12,108.27,,0,7.13) - a bit dangerous as Ogden Av does not have a stop sign.
I could name more, but this is just a small sample.
If I'm not mistaken, overhead STOP signs are no longer allowed, regardless of whether it is the rectangular or octagonal versions. I know that there are overhead STOP signs in Blackville, S.C. The ones in nearby Elko were removed in the 2000s.
Quote from: mjb2002 on August 01, 2013, 02:35:55 AM
If I'm not mistaken, overhead STOP signs are no longer allowed, regardless of whether it is the rectangular or octagonal versions. I know that there are overhead STOP signs in Blackville, S.C. The ones in nearby Elko were removed in the 2000s.
No longer allowed by whom? I don't see anything in the MUTCD forbidding it. In most cases, (all that I have seen so far), an overhead-mounted STOP sign is in addition to a right-side post mounted sign. Wisconsin still regularly installs them at rural intersections (usually with a flashing beacon) when there appear to be compliance issues. In some cases, they've also been installed as part of new (https://www.google.com/maps?ll=43.421321,-88.375756&spn=0.000008,0.008256&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=43.421301,-88.37588&panoid=ZxrXgo4oSzEBoy2Hkifwxg&cbp=12,72.71,,0,14.8) construction.
BTW, where have you seen a
rectangular stop sign? :confused:
Quote from: DaBigE on August 01, 2013, 02:00:14 PM
Quote from: mjb2002 on August 01, 2013, 02:35:55 AM
If I'm not mistaken, overhead STOP signs are no longer allowed, regardless of whether it is the rectangular or octagonal versions. I know that there are overhead STOP signs in Blackville, S.C. The ones in nearby Elko were removed in the 2000s.
No longer allowed by whom? I don't see anything in the MUTCD forbidding it. In most cases, (all that I have seen so far), an overhead-mounted STOP sign is in addition to a right-side post mounted sign. Wisconsin still regularly installs them at rural intersections (usually with a flashing beacon) when there appear to be compliance issues. In some cases, they've also been installed as part of new (https://www.google.com/maps?ll=43.421321,-88.375756&spn=0.000008,0.008256&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=43.421301,-88.37588&panoid=ZxrXgo4oSzEBoy2Hkifwxg&cbp=12,72.71,,0,14.8) construction.
BTW, where have you seen a rectangular stop sign? :confused:
This is one in Blackville, S.C.
(Note: yes, this pic is over five years old, but the sign was still there as of late May.)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-w4ltA8dr-Fk/Ufqk07JB0pI/AAAAAAAADsg/g53XRkaxbq0/s800/rectangular%2520STOP%2520sign.PNG)
^^ I have seen them all over South Carolina, but that is the only state I have seen them in.
The typical standard in California is to paint the word "STOP" ahead of the limit line in each lane controlled by the stop sign. I'm rather surprised that this isn't the standard everywhere. I accidentally ran a couple of stop signs when I was in Illinois recently because there was no limit line OR "STOP" painted on the pavement, and the signs were obscured by parked vehicles. I admit that I should have been paying closer attention to the signs, but old habits die hard when you are accustomed to it always being indicated on the pavement.
Quote from: jdbx on August 02, 2013, 03:20:41 PM
The typical standard in California is to paint the word "STOP" ahead of the limit line in each lane controlled by the stop sign. I'm rather surprised that this isn't the standard everywhere. I accidentally ran a couple of stop signs when I was in Illinois recently because there was no limit line OR "STOP" painted on the pavement, and the signs were obscured by parked vehicles. I admit that I should have been paying closer attention to the signs, but old habits die hard when you are accustomed to it always being indicated on the pavement.
The legend "STOP" would be scraped up within a few years by the plow trucks and covered by snow in the winter.
One could conversely mention that California should be using the NO PASSING ZONE pennant as it is the standard in most states. The only way I could tell that the passing zone ended was the change in the lines. However, in Michigan, they tell you when the passing zone ends and starts with signage on the right side of the road as well - DO NOT PASS and PASS WITH CARE.
Basically, it boils down to a difference in states that get snow and states that don't for paint versus signage. We tend to prefer signage over paint in this area due to the snow season.
QuoteBasically, it boils down to a difference in states that get snow and states that don't for paint versus signage. We tend to prefer signage over paint in this area due to the snow season.
Regional preference. In the Midwest, yes. In the Northeast, no. *NONE* of the Northeastern states use No Passing Zone signs in the fashion described...to delineate the no passing zone. They go with paint alone.
Lots of places eschew the use of the pennant–Oklahoma also does not use it at all.
I see plenty of pennants in New England. Often they are just used in conjunction with a DO NOT PASS sign on a random road with no striped passing zone, but they do also sometimes accompany the ends of striped passing zones.
Upon further reflection, New Hampshire uses them on some roads as they're intended. Vermont certainly does not. I do not recall seeing any in either Maine, western Mass, or western Connecticut.
Quote from: froggie on August 04, 2013, 04:33:21 AM
Upon further reflection, New Hampshire uses them on some roads as they're intended. Vermont certainly does not. I do not recall seeing any in either Maine, western Mass, or western Connecticut.
You're lucky if you see signs in western Mass.
I actually drove up to NH and Maine today, and IIRC every road I drove on in NH had pennants properly placed, and in Maine some did.
MA has them, but more often than not just stuck up somewhere.
Closest I can find is this:
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=32.18193,-94.338676&spn=0.438766,0.617294&cbp=12,174.18,,0,10.71&layer=c&panoid=WlG4ZHrjGjaSP3aa6LxHtw&cbll=32.18193,-94.338676&dg=opt&t=m&z=11
In some areas I have seen STOP signs on both sides of the street. In cases of divided streets they usually have one in the median in addition to the normal one. So really an overhead flashing beacon is all not needed if a left side additional STOP is placed.
In my driving experience, I have seen them hidden behind parked cars, and even with tree branches hanging over them so I know what he is talking about.
We passed through this STOP sign controlling multiple lanes on Saturday on our way to (and later on our way home from) General's Ridge Golf Course in Manassas Park, Virginia. The sign is at the corner of Manassas Drive and Carondelet Drive in the City of Manassas Park (map link centered there: http://goo.gl/maps/phEBa ). The speed limit is 35 mph and I strongly believe the sign is there for speed control rather than to aid people coming from the other street. As I mention in the video below, the flashing red lights atop the stop sign are new since the last time we played that course two or three years ago. There's been a stop sign there at least since the first time I played there (at least ten years ago, I believe, when it had a different name), and I assume the flashing red lights are intended to help draw attention to the signs because you can probably tell from the video that it's quite easy to exceed the speed limit on that road. A full traffic light would be overkill, though. The road doesn't go anywhere other than the residential area and the golf course, and it's not a very busy golf course because of where it is and because it's easily the most difficult public course in Northern Virginia.
(Click thumbnail to play video)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2Fth_StopsignnearGeneralsRidge_zpsc04ac7b7.jpg&hash=16f27a1a5da3977ba440679937e12b236aa486fb) (http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/1995hoo/Road%20sign%20pictures/StopsignnearGeneralsRidge_zpsc04ac7b7.mp4)
Williams, AZ along old Rt 66:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.staticflickr.com%2F2825%2F9501999179_83b7abc3be_z.jpg&hash=f1cbb0122366d01da44d8adaef4bbb47b120e4f2) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/94611454@N02/9501999179/)
IMG_4445 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/94611454@N02/9501999179/) by Signals Unlimited (http://www.flickr.com/people/94611454@N02/)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.staticflickr.com%2F3746%2F9504798740_c0d27d3829_z.jpg&hash=160e31344d0193de4bfd39f6b91f1fc4016137a6) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/94611454@N02/9504798740/)
IMG_4448 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/94611454@N02/9504798740/) by Signals Unlimited (http://www.flickr.com/people/94611454@N02/)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.staticflickr.com%2F3804%2F9501997783_459fa919ca_z.jpg&hash=3d1823f39aec6e0004605ca60bb68099fba330ec) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/94611454@N02/9501997783/)
IMG_4447 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/94611454@N02/9501997783/) by Signals Unlimited (http://www.flickr.com/people/94611454@N02/)
http://goo.gl/maps/zmq9F
Here's one in Vancouver. Appropriately, there's a spanwire of red flashing lights. Speed limits I believe are 35.
http://goo.gl/maps/2FO7k
http://goo.gl/maps/1Ev4X
U.S. 165 and U.S. 84 in LaSalle Parish, Louisiana.
Oklahoma often uses flags, which wear out after a few months
http://goo.gl/maps/hP7a1
Quote from: US71 on August 30, 2013, 08:57:37 AM
Oklahoma often uses flags, which wear out after a few months
http://goo.gl/maps/hP7a1
The flags are to tell people who drive there frequently that something has changed.
I have seen permanent orange metal "flags" on signs in Minnesota, meaning it was to draw your attention.
Quote from: Sanctimoniously on August 30, 2013, 03:49:44 AM
http://goo.gl/maps/2FO7k
http://goo.gl/maps/1Ev4X
U.S. 165 and U.S. 84 in LaSalle Parish, Louisiana.
The second one seemed to be non-qualified from the view you provided. I had to move around to see that the intersecting road has multiple lanes controlled by stop signs, divided to boot!
Quote from: Big John on August 30, 2013, 03:35:27 PM
I have seen permanent orange metal "flags" on signs in Minnesota, meaning it was to draw your attention.
I've seen that fairly often as well. In some states I've seen two orange squares turned onto one "point" (sometimes called a diamond); in others, notably Maryland, I've seen a rectangular orange blank sign above the sign to which they want to call attention–most often an advisory that the speed limit drops ahead.
From AARoads.com–note the white sign in the distance beyond the Camry in the second lane from the left:
(https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/maryland095/i-095_sb_exit_027_04.jpg)
Quote from: theline on August 30, 2013, 03:37:54 PM
Quote from: Sanctimoniously on August 30, 2013, 03:49:44 AM
http://goo.gl/maps/2FO7k
http://goo.gl/maps/1Ev4X
U.S. 165 and U.S. 84 in LaSalle Parish, Louisiana.
The second one seemed to be non-qualified from the view you provided. I had to move around to see that the intersecting road has multiple lanes controlled by stop signs, divided to boot!
Sorry, I should have clarified. The first link is the view from U.S. 165, the four-lane divided road, and the second view is from U.S. 84, which is only two lanes.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 30, 2013, 03:42:16 PM
Quote from: Big John on August 30, 2013, 03:35:27 PM
I have seen permanent orange metal "flags" on signs in Minnesota, meaning it was to draw your attention.
I've seen that fairly often as well. In some states I've seen two orange squares turned onto one "point" (sometimes called a diamond); in others, notably Maryland, I've seen a rectangular orange blank sign above the sign to which they want to call attention–most often an advisory that the speed limit drops ahead.
IIRC Virginia uses both of those. I remember when 295 went up to 70, the 65 ahead and speed limit 65 signs at the south end of the 70 zone both got the orange square treatment, and I recall seeing the orange rectangle too but can't remember where offhand.
Really, it should be yellow or red–orange just makes me think it's a construction-related condition, and I'd be apt to ignore it as a remnant of such if there were no construction around.
Missouri has some speed limit signs on I-44 with a yellow-and-black striped border, like caution tape.
Quote from: NE2 on August 30, 2013, 02:50:37 PM
Quote from: US71 on August 30, 2013, 08:57:37 AM
Oklahoma often uses flags, which wear out after a few months
http://goo.gl/maps/hP7a1
The flags are to tell people who drive there frequently that something has changed.
Yes, they've changed out the flags ;)
Encountered this one today:
https://maps.google.com/?ll=32.928247,-96.830473&spn=0.000005,0.003114&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=32.928327,-96.830493&panoid=SaJBPZKzWkHzqCWMrx9WGg&cbp=12,338.88,,0,0
I was in the left lane, a box truck was in the right lane. The only reason I was able to stop is that I planned on turning left at the soonest available spot to turn around. This is in a warehouse district with lots of truck traffic. And, the stop sign is around a curve. Very unsafe.
In just about every multilane stop shown so far, my first thought is that the intersection would be better served by a roundabout.
Quote from: Sanctimoniously on August 30, 2013, 03:56:48 PM
Quote from: theline on August 30, 2013, 03:37:54 PM
Quote from: Sanctimoniously on August 30, 2013, 03:49:44 AM
http://goo.gl/maps/2FO7k
http://goo.gl/maps/1Ev4X
U.S. 165 and U.S. 84 in LaSalle Parish, Louisiana.
The second one seemed to be non-qualified from the view you provided. I had to move around to see that the intersecting road has multiple lanes controlled by stop signs, divided to boot!
Sorry, I should have clarified. The first link is the view from U.S. 165, the four-lane divided road, and the second view is from U.S. 84, which is only two lanes.
The stop sign is present on US 84, but not on 165 anymore. Since the completion of 4 laning it doesn't stop anymore in Tullos at 84