Let's see some closely spaced intersections!
I'll start with a pair of signals 400-500 feet from a roundabout, former traffic circle:
https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.842191,-74.159383&spn=0.002423,0.004281&t=k&z=18
How about a signalized intersection 0 feet from a rotary? :)
http://goo.gl/maps/clslM
Roundabout in Worcester, MA:
https://maps.google.com/?ll=42.261785,-71.79522&spn=0.00311,0.003449&t=h&z=18
Do HAWKs count at a roundabout?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GQlwg5zfSU
This mall roundabout is roughly 300 feet from a major 6-lane boulevard. Wonder if there's enough storage capacity during the Christmas shopping season:
https://maps.google.com/?ll=38.77212,-121.26649&z=18&t=h
Here's one in Macon: http://goo.gl/maps/NJMhX
However, since the Macon Mall is practically a dead mall at this point, I doubt storage capacity will ever be a problem.
Alexandria, Virginia. The roundabout at the southern end of Holland Lane/eastern end of Eisenhower Avenue is just east of a traffic light on Eisenhower. If you're coming from Holland Lane, the light is not visible until you exit the roundabout and there's no warning sign about the light. (Map link here: http://goo.gl/maps/PfGGU The light is at the intersection of Eisenhower and John Carlyle.)
I usually like roundabouts, but this one really serves no purpose. The other road that goes off the southeast corner of the roundabout goes nowhere and gets almost no traffic.
Video of me encountering a jaywalker there earlier this month (click to play):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FDashcam%2520videos%2Fth_JaywalkeroffEisenhowerroundabout_zps7c74d02e.jpg&hash=ba5e3bcda2d5f42036b45e902150f151bf0494b0) (http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/1995hoo/Dashcam%20videos/JaywalkeroffEisenhowerroundabout_zps7c74d02e.mp4)
How about the double-whammy I go through every day: http://goo.gl/rxM8Vq (http://goo.gl/rxM8Vq)
That's a roundabout, followed in a few hundred feet by a railroad crossing (NJ Transit Princeton Spur/Dinky), followed very shortly (is it even 100ft?) by a traffic light. Traffic easily gets backed up through the roundabout due to either the light, the railroad gates, or both -- depending on the time of day, Of course there's lots of stupid people who stop on the tracks... At least the traffic light is triggered by the train, so it clears the trap between the light and the gates when a train approaches.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on August 28, 2013, 09:34:36 PM
How about a signalized intersection 0 feet from a rotary? :)
http://goo.gl/maps/clslM
This looks a lot like the former intersection between NJ-70 and NJ-73. It was basically a circle where cut 73 through the middle with traffic lights added at the circumference intersecting points. There's other examples of that in NJ (just can't think of them off the top of my head).
Edit: Here we go... NJ-38 @ Church Rd... drove through this one on the way to the mall a few months ago: http://goo.gl/Dc0fk1
Railroad crossing through a roundabout at the University of Utah. This roundabout is roughly 400 feet from a traffic signal at University Blvd and you can see a line of vehicles nearly backing up into the roundabout:
https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.759251,-111.844943&spn=0.001592,0.001725&t=h&z=19
Well, Conway, AR has gotten roundabout happy, so I'll look there.
Here's two roundabouts within a few hundred feet of each other:
http://goo.gl/maps/Zbgew
Here's two roundabouts AND a signal very close to each other:
http://goo.gl/maps/vcaet
Quote from: Compulov on August 29, 2013, 06:36:35 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on August 28, 2013, 09:34:36 PM
How about a signalized intersection 0 feet from a rotary? :)
http://goo.gl/maps/clslM
This looks a lot like the former intersection between NJ-70 and NJ-73. It was basically a circle where cut 73 through the middle with traffic lights added at the circumference intersecting points. There's other examples of that in NJ (just can't think of them off the top of my head).
Edit: Here we go... NJ-38 @ Church Rd... drove through this one on the way to the mall a few months ago: http://goo.gl/Dc0fk1
This circle near the Atlantic City Airport is the newest example of that...although the link will only show it's under construction, with the street label going thru the circle: http://goo.gl/maps/sFzbC
Per the newspaper reports, converting the circle to a semi-thru route was done in the same of safety (although, in most cases, an intersection is converted to a circle in the name of safety). Per later news reports, motorists were complaining that what used to take a few seconds to get thru was now taking 15 minutes during rush hour, because of the new traffic lights.
This became one of the classic cases where the politicians claimed they did the right thing, even though congestion went from nearly non-existent to severely congested!
Quote from: ChoralScholar on August 29, 2013, 11:07:52 PM
Well, Conway, AR has gotten roundabout happy, so I'll look there.
Here's two roundabouts within a few hundred feet of each other:
http://goo.gl/maps/Zbgew
As far as closely spaced roundabouts go, how bout these two on Lee Road near Brighton, Michigan:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fleaguecityroundabout.webs.com%2Fphotos%2Froundabout_double.jpg&hash=cb8f2686b40ff5087551aa5babdd3aa35d533037)
Quote from: tradephoric on August 30, 2013, 10:02:01 AM
As far as closely spaced roundabouts go, how bout these two on Lee Road near Brighton, Michigan:
(image snipped for brevity)
That picture made me wonder just how long it will be before we see the first Magic Roundabout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Swindon)) here in the US... :bigass:
Quote from: Compulov on August 30, 2013, 10:12:53 AM
Quote from: tradephoric on August 30, 2013, 10:02:01 AM
As far as closely spaced roundabouts go, how bout these two on Lee Road near Brighton, Michigan:
(image snipped for brevity)
That picture made me wonder just how long it will be before we see the first Magic Roundabout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Swindon)) here in the US... :bigass:
Any bets on which state does it first? Given WisDOT's love of roundabouts, they are on my short list, but given MDOT's love of channelization, they do get on it as well.
I drove through the Magic Roundabout a few times and had no problems with it, though I recognize the same would not be true of the average American driver. Sometimes when I want to amuse myself I try picturing the Magic Roundabout replacing one of the traffic circles in the District of Columbia and the carnage that would ensue.
The ones I hate are the "chained mini-roundabouts" where they are directly adjacent to each other, far more so than in the picture above. Even the Magic Roundabout isn't truly a set of chained mini-roundabouts because there's a short gap between each one. Compare to this annoying thing I encountered near Bristol (http://goo.gl/maps/za3TY). What I hate when you encounter these things is when you have to stop and give way as you go from one mini-roundabout to the other. It feels like there's no room and the back of your car is in danger of being torn off if the guy behind you is staying on the first mini-roundabout. Even all my British friends say these things are a nuisance (whereas they don't much mind the Magic Roundabout either because there's space between them if you have to give way).
I guess a single oval-shaped roundabout at the particular spot I linked above would be too difficult for lorries or buses.
This roundabout (https://maps.google.se/maps?q=lindhagensplan+stockholm&hl=sv&ll=59.33169,18.019574&spn=0.003081,0.009645&hnear=Lindhagensgatan,+Stockholm&t=m&z=17) on Highway 275 in Stockholm, Sweden has a signal in the circle itself (https://maps.google.se/maps?q=lindhagensplan+stockholm&hl=sv&ll=59.332024,18.01966&spn=0.003081,0.009645&hnear=Lindhagensgatan,+Stockholm&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=59.332018,18.019548&panoid=O9hshuGO-pJ1cWcQm9A7cA&cbp=12,273.91,,0,2.7), normally the wrong thing to do.
There are also signals at some of the entrances and exits to the roundabout.
But given the (heavy) nature of traffic (motorized and non-motorized) here, it makes sense. The street that leads off to the northwest, Lindhagensgatan (English: Linden Grove Street), leads to an interchange (https://maps.google.se/maps?q=lindhagensplan+stockholm&hl=sv&ll=59.334897,18.009918&spn=0.006161,0.01929&hnear=Lindhagensgatan,+Stockholm&t=m&z=16) with Esslingeleden motorway (E4/E20), which provides access in all directions. The interchange (https://maps.google.se/maps?q=lindhagensplan+stockholm&hl=sv&ll=59.331307,18.0101&spn=0.003081,0.009645&hnear=Lindhagensgatan,+Stockholm&t=m&z=17) between Highway 275 and E4/E20 has many missing movements, so much of the traffic between 275 and E4/E20 has to use Lindhagensgatan (and this roundabout) for access between them.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 30, 2013, 10:46:33 AM
I drove through the Magic Roundabout a few times and had no problems with it, though I recognize the same would not be true of the average American driver.
I don't think I'd have much trouble with it if it were right-hand-drive, but the fact that it's left-hand means I wouldn't want to encounter it straight out of the rental car lot after landing.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 30, 2013, 11:27:36 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 30, 2013, 10:46:33 AM
I drove through the Magic Roundabout a few times and had no problems with it, though I recognize the same would not be true of the average American driver.
I don't think I'd have much trouble with it if it were right-hand-drive, but the fact that it's left-hand means I wouldn't want to encounter it straight out of the rental car lot after landing.
I think you have your hands confused. The UK is indeed right-hand-drive (steering wheel on the right). I know, you mean "right side driving."
Either way, good thing it's where it is, then–you wouldn't have to! From the car hire at Heathrow to the Magic Roundabout via the M4 is around 67 miles, so I'd had plenty of time to re-adjust to the car being the other way round. (The Magic Roundabout was my first stop on that particular trip, followed by Stonehenge, en route from Heathrow to Bristol. I ultimately found Stonehenge underwhelming and the Magic Roundabout more interesting, although I'm glad I went to Stonehenge just to have seen it.)
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 30, 2013, 11:46:11 AM
I think you have your hands confused. The UK is indeed right-hand-drive (steering wheel on the right). I know, you mean "right side driving."
yep, that's what I meant. raise your right hand if you haven't had your morning coffee.
your other right.
QuoteEither way, good thing it's where it is, then–you wouldn't have to! From the car hire at Heathrow to the Magic Roundabout via the M4 is around 67 miles, so I'd had plenty of time to re-adjust to the car being the other way round. (The Magic Roundabout was my first stop on that particular trip, followed by Stonehenge, en route from Heathrow to Bristol. I ultimately found Stonehenge underwhelming and the Magic Roundabout more interesting, although I'm glad I went to Stonehenge just to have seen it.)
is the Magic Roundabout something that people would have to pass through to get to somewhere interesting in the UK? or is it just of local importance? i.e. is it like US-89 in Flagstaff, which dang near everyone goes through to get to the Grand Canyon ... or is it like Breezewood, PA, which you really only need to go through if you're wanting to see something stupid, and/or clinch I-70.
Quote from: Brandon on August 30, 2013, 10:16:53 AM
Quote from: Compulov on August 30, 2013, 10:12:53 AM
Quote from: tradephoric on August 30, 2013, 10:02:01 AM
As far as closely spaced roundabouts go, how bout these two on Lee Road near Brighton, Michigan:
(image snipped for brevity)
That picture made me wonder just how long it will be before we see the first Magic Roundabout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Swindon)) here in the US... :bigass:
Any bets on which state does it first? Given WisDOT's love of roundabouts, they are on my short list, but given MDOT's love of channelization, they do get on it as well.
My vote would be Wisconsin. They have no qualms about constructing closely spaced roundabouts.
https://maps.google.com/?ll=44.010792,-88.582345&spn=0.003468,0.005826&t=h°=90&z=18
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 30, 2013, 10:46:33 AM
The ones I hate are the "chained mini-roundabouts" where they are directly adjacent to each other, far more so than in the picture above. Even the Magic Roundabout isn't truly a set of chained mini-roundabouts because there's a short gap between each one. Compare to this annoying thing I encountered near Bristol (http://goo.gl/maps/za3TY). What I hate when you encounter these things is when you have to stop and give way as you go from one mini-roundabout to the other. It feels like there's no room and the back of your car is in danger of being torn off if the guy behind you is staying on the first mini-roundabout. Even all my British friends say these things are a nuisance (whereas they don't much mind the Magic Roundabout either because there's space between them if you have to give way).
I guess a single oval-shaped roundabout at the particular spot I linked above would be too difficult for lorries or buses.
Dear lord, that looks extremely obnoxious. Guess there was no way to squeeze one large roundabout into that space? I think if it were designed with either a large truck apron or just as one large "mini" roundabout with no physical center median, trucks and busses could plow through it. It almost seems like someone at the road department *wanted* people to have to stop multiple times (traffic calming?).
Quote from: Compulov on August 30, 2013, 02:43:00 PM
Dear lord, that looks extremely obnoxious. Guess there was no way to squeeze one large roundabout into that space? I think if it were designed with either a large truck apron or just as one large "mini" roundabout with no physical center median, trucks and busses could plow through it. It almost seems like someone at the road department *wanted* people to have to stop multiple times (traffic calming?).
there already appears to be a short barrier between the two centers. maybe extend that as to cover the entire distance, closing off a pair of "shortcuts" but allowing drivers to have to yield only once. indeed, it would turn it into a larger, more oval roundabout.
Music Circle in Nashville, Tennessee is very close to a signalized intersection. On Google Earth I measure 229 feet from the edge of the roundabout to the closest stop line.
Technically, I suppose, this is a traffic circle and not a proper roundabout. But the first location I thought of was Belleville, IL.
https://maps.google.com/?ll=38.513377,-89.984019&spn=0.004761,0.004801&t=k&z=18
Quote from: Compulov on August 29, 2013, 06:36:35 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on August 28, 2013, 09:34:36 PM
How about a signalized intersection 0 feet from a rotary? :)
http://goo.gl/maps/clslM
This looks a lot like the former intersection between NJ-70 and NJ-73. It was basically a circle where cut 73 through the middle with traffic lights added at the circumference intersecting points. There's other examples of that in NJ (just can't think of them off the top of my head).
Edit: Here we go... NJ-38 @ Church Rd... drove through this one on the way to the mall a few months ago: http://goo.gl/Dc0fk1
thats actually a hamburger intersection not a roundabout
Hamburger intersection? Hmmm...never heard that one before.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 30, 2013, 11:46:11 AMEither way, good thing it's where it is, then–you wouldn't have to! From the car hire at Heathrow to the Magic Roundabout via the M4 is around 67 miles, so I'd had plenty of time to re-adjust to the car being the other way round. (The Magic Roundabout was my first stop on that particular trip, followed by Stonehenge, en route from Heathrow to Bristol. I ultimately found Stonehenge underwhelming and the Magic Roundabout more interesting, although I'm glad I went to Stonehenge just to have seen it.)
You do know there are other magic roundabouts in England? Swindon is one of the furthest away from Heathrow (Cannock has a triangle one, but that's it). Hemel Hempstead's (https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=51.745519,-0.470631&spn=0.005839,0.016512&t=m&z=17) is much closer (about 20 miles), but like Swindon, is off the tourist's beaten path.
Wycombe's (https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=51.627075,-0.748272&spn=0.005854,0.016512&t=m&z=17) is about 13 miles from Heathrow and Denham's (https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=51.561118,-0.493591&spn=0.011726,0.033023&t=m&z=16) (which has signals where the M/A40 slip roads meet the roundabout) is about 5 miles away - however there's a closer one...
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 30, 2013, 11:27:36 AMI don't think I'd have much trouble with it if it were right-hand-drive, but the fact that it's left-hand means I wouldn't want to encounter it straight out of the rental car lot after landing.
good job there aren't rental car places on this side of the A30 (https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=51.467029,-0.422544&spn=0.0235,0.066047&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=51.467342,-0.422755&panoid=dW5c3WYyPpFMnMOEvgPnkw&cbp=12,330.44,,0,-2.66).
Yes, that is a magic roundabout
in Heathrow.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 30, 2013, 10:46:33 AMWhat I hate when you encounter these things is when you have to stop and give way as you go from one mini-roundabout to the other.
You don't have to stop - just yield at each junction if there's right turning traffic.
QuoteEven all my British friends say these things are a nuisance (whereas they don't much mind the Magic Roundabout either because there's space between them if you have to give way).
I guess I don't count - I quite like them. Though I understand the point - only about a car length between the two junctions, pedestrians crossing between the two - if there's reduced visibility or too much traffic, then they are awful.
I find the two paired mini roundabouts in my town work rather well.
Quote from: english si on September 03, 2013, 07:04:51 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 30, 2013, 11:46:11 AMWhat I hate when you encounter these things is when you have to stop and give way as you go from one mini-roundabout to the other.
You don't have to stop - just yield at each junction if there's right turning traffic.
That's what I said–I hate it when you have to stop and give way. I didn't say you always have to stop.
Here's a traffic signal 190 feet away from a major roundabout.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRoundabouts%2FOrchRB_zpsgkylg3ca.png&hash=6be3ad490ad353e925b626f371e4cbd45eeba585)
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5288999,-83.3596994,323m/data=!3m1!1e3
Looks like the south and west entrances to the roundabout are signalized too, presumably to stop traffic from entering if it backs up into the roundabout (in addition to providing a signalized pedestrian crossing).
Quote from: lordsutch on July 18, 2016, 01:54:39 PM
Looks like the south and west entrances to the roundabout are signalized too, presumably to stop traffic from entering if it backs up into the roundabout (in addition to providing a signalized pedestrian crossing).
The signals at the south and west entrances are HAWK signals. They are only on when a pedestrian activates the pushbutton.
It appears the roadway could have been redesigned to give an additional 50-75 feet of storage space. Every bit of storage helps when a traffic signal is so close to the roundabout:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRoundabouts%2FOrchredesign_zpsir1e1sl9.png&hash=723cc910a887511f3d836c0f2320ef0c200b439d)
MDOT, always experimenting with M-10 and other people's money.
Is it just me, or are the more suburban and often wealthier municipalities more prone to the roundabout fad?
The new US 31 features this:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fus31hamiltoncounty.in.gov%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F01%2Fb_106RAB-300x158.jpg&hash=0860d9d0b9ccc1ff92c6322350b12134a776f8c2)
http://us31hamiltoncounty.in.gov/individual-interchanges/106th-street/
That's four within a half mile. East of it, 106th becomes a 2-lane road with no shoulders.
Or how about Main Street, two exits up?
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9785858,-86.1552893,16z
Carmel, IN is posed to possibly be the nation's roundabout king/queen. I wonder how this will go over in 20 years.
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/hamilton-county/2016/05/30/carmel-releases-timeline-229m-roadwork/84968662/
Well, it's the suburbs and wealthier municipalities that are building new intersections, or upgrading old ones to handle more traffic, in general. If your traffic is declining, you're ripping out traffic signals to save on electricity and maintenance, not replacing them with new traffic controls at 500k a pop.
that and the fact that suburbs usually have more money to spend on infrastructure. Having all of these roundabouts in Carmel makes traffic so much better, there are only a handful of signals left, and the ultimate goal is to have only 1 signal left in the entire city. The only reason why the one signal won't be removed is because it is the first signal in the state of Indiana, and one of the first modern ones in the US. this is the location of the signal: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9783909,-86.127055,3a,75y,15h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sd7J_FDFsaI1Fw4JiQFn7-g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dd7J_FDFsaI1Fw4JiQFn7-g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D392%26h%3D106%26yaw%3D15.4735%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656
Silverback, are there any roundabouts in Carmel that you believe shouldn't have been built? One of the commenters in the article coatimundi cited stated that the roundabout at 96th and Ditch sees mile long backups during rush hour. I happened to stumble upon a short video of the roundabout. It appears one leg of the roundabout is dominate making it difficult for traffic in the other leg from entering.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehyg4X40ehM
Quote from: tradephoric on July 18, 2016, 07:53:34 PM
Silverback, are there any roundabouts in Carmel that you believe shouldn't have been built? One of the commenters in the article coatimundi cited stated that the roundabout at 96th and Ditch sees mile long backups during rush hour. I happened to stumble upon a short video of the roundabout. It appears one leg of the roundabout is dominate making it difficult for traffic in the other leg from entering.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehyg4X40ehM
Most certainly, the only reason why there are so many is because the mayor is obsessed with them, and that particular roundabout is TERRIBLE, it's no better than the 4 way stop it replaced. It suffers from what I call "bullying" where one (or more) approach gets more cars through, causing the less busy legs to back up, or be bullied into congestion. All 4 approaches should be 2 lanes. Honestly, there are a lot of roundabouts that either should never have been built, could have waited, or were built and are inadequate. I think a lot of these intersections prove that roundabouts aren't the end all be all. If you take a look at some of the future roundabouts to be built in the next 5 yrs, a lot of them make no sense, but some do. There are a few roundabouts that are replacing shopping center signals, something I think is something that either can wait for a while or not be changed at all.
a few quick examples of ones that shouldn't have been built, look at oak ridge road, the 2 located between 136th and 146th don't need to be there. Look just to the east, there are way too many roundabouts at us 31 and 136th (these were built by the state when they redid 31). I don't think there should have been an exit there either, but that's a different matter. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9906764,-86.1406584,15.94z
another one i can think of really quick is spring mill and dorset: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9745058,-86.1617953,16.96z
Again I can think of many other infrastructure needs that could have been met before building any of these (the city has areas that suffer from terrible drainage problems). US 31 was never supposed to have roundabout interchanges but the city won and they changed it to what it is now, I like the idea, I just don't like the clusterfuck at 136th, terribly confusing to new drivers driving in that area for the 1st time.
Quote from: tradephoric on July 18, 2016, 02:05:08 PM
Quote from: lordsutch on July 18, 2016, 01:54:39 PM
Looks like the south and west entrances to the roundabout are signalized too, presumably to stop traffic from entering if it backs up into the roundabout (in addition to providing a signalized pedestrian crossing).
The signals at the south and west entrances are HAWK signals. They are only on when a pedestrian activates the pushbutton.
It appears the roadway could have been redesigned to give an additional 50-75 feet of storage space. Every bit of storage helps when a traffic signal is so close to the roundabout:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRoundabouts%2FOrchredesign_zpsir1e1sl9.png&hash=723cc910a887511f3d836c0f2320ef0c200b439d)
Except you haven't demonstrated that the extra room is needed. You're just redrawing roads for the sake of it, regardless if there's a reason for it.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2016, 09:44:26 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on July 18, 2016, 02:05:08 PM
Quote from: lordsutch on July 18, 2016, 01:54:39 PM
Looks like the south and west entrances to the roundabout are signalized too, presumably to stop traffic from entering if it backs up into the roundabout (in addition to providing a signalized pedestrian crossing).
The signals at the south and west entrances are HAWK signals. They are only on when a pedestrian activates the pushbutton.
It appears the roadway could have been redesigned to give an additional 50-75 feet of storage space. Every bit of storage helps when a traffic signal is so close to the roundabout:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRoundabouts%2FOrchredesign_zpsir1e1sl9.png&hash=723cc910a887511f3d836c0f2320ef0c200b439d)
Except you haven't demonstrated that the extra room is needed. You're just redrawing roads for the sake of it, regardless if there's a reason for it.
The need is there. I drive through this roundabout often and have seen northbound traffic back up into the roundabout, which also blocks westbound traffic. When this was under construction, I thought for sure they were going to turn Northwestern Highway to be the eastern leg of the roundabout and eliminate the intersection with Orchard Lake Road altogether. I can't believe MDOT and Oakland County built it as they did instead.
Quote from: tradephoric on July 18, 2016, 02:05:08 PMIt appears the roadway could have been redesigned to give an additional 50-75 feet of storage space. Every bit of storage helps when a traffic signal is so close to the roundabout:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRoundabouts%2FOrchredesign_zpsir1e1sl9.png&hash=723cc910a887511f3d836c0f2320ef0c200b439d)
It would surely be far cheaper to just redraw the path to cross right by the junction so that stop line can move forward a car length or two to be as close to the road as possible? Gives you about half of the stacking space benefit of realigning, but for a much smaller fraction of the cost.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 18, 2016, 10:21:27 PMWhen this was under construction, I thought for sure they were going to turn Northwestern Highway to be the eastern leg of the roundabout and eliminate the intersection with Orchard Lake Road altogether. I can't believe MDOT and Oakland County built it as they did instead.
Yes, it is a silly design and should have been more radical in the building.
Quote from: english si on July 19, 2016, 07:05:30 AM
It would surely be far cheaper to just redraw the path to cross right by the junction so that stop line can move forward a car length or two to be as close to the road as possible? Gives you about half of the stacking space benefit of realigning, but for a much smaller fraction of the cost.
The funny thing is the redline design matches the geometry of Northwestern before the roundabout was constructed. When they rebuilt this last year, they realigned Northwestern to the south (there may have been a logical reason for doing this; but the downside is it reduced the amount of storage space between the roundabout and traffic signal).
the diagonal should have been removed
Quote from: tradephoric on July 19, 2016, 10:15:04 AMThe funny thing is the redline design matches the geometry of Northwestern before the roundabout was constructed.
Ah, got you now.
QuoteWhen they rebuilt this last year, they realigned Northwestern to the south (there may have been a logical reason for doing this; but the downside is it reduced the amount of storage space between the roundabout and traffic signal).
Presumably to create more space out the driveways? They could have made the median smaller and the u-turns tighter, so the southbound could remain in situ.
I would have to say the roundabout on Moorland Rd in New Berlin at the I-43 ramps on the northside is pretty close to the signalized intersection at Beloit Rd. Can be a problem during peak times as SB traffic trying to enter the roundabout often backs up to Beloit Rd.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 18, 2016, 10:21:27 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2016, 09:44:26 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on July 18, 2016, 02:05:08 PM
The signals at the south and west entrances are HAWK signals. They are only on when a pedestrian activates the pushbutton.
It appears the roadway could have been redesigned to give an additional 50-75 feet of storage space. Every bit of storage helps when a traffic signal is so close to the roundabout:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRoundabouts%2FOrchredesign_zpsir1e1sl9.png&hash=723cc910a887511f3d836c0f2320ef0c200b439d)
Except you haven't demonstrated that the extra room is needed. You're just redrawing roads for the sake of it, regardless if there's a reason for it.
The need is there. I drive through this roundabout often and have seen northbound traffic back up into the roundabout, which also blocks westbound traffic. When this was under construction, I thought for sure they were going to turn Northwestern Highway to be the eastern leg of the roundabout and eliminate the intersection with Orchard Lake Road altogether. I can't believe MDOT and Oakland County built it as they did instead.
I would think the project was built this way to avoid funneling all the traffic going between Northwestern Hwy and Orchard Lake Road north through the roundabout. That would probably have increased strain on the roundabout.
What are the cycle lengths on those signalized intersections on the north and east legs? It would stand to reason that you could run phases that are pretty short (i.e. minimum pedestrian clearances, or shorter when no peds are present) to help prevent backups into the roundabout.
Quote from: roadfro on July 31, 2016, 08:23:04 PM
What are the cycle lengths on those signalized intersections on the north and east legs? It would stand to reason that you could run phases that are pretty short (i.e. minimum pedestrian clearances, or shorter when no peds are present) to help prevent backups into the roundabout.
The cycle lengths range from 60 to 80 seconds. The signals could run shorter than 60 seconds but the north leg signal has some lengthy vehicle clearance times (leading to a lot of loss time at short cycles). Ultimately, the signal is too close to the roundabout and traffic will periodically queue up through the roundabout. It's most evident during the PM rush but it can occur during off-peak times as well.
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This is how i would fix it
Quote from: JMAN12343610 on August 03, 2016, 12:12:38 AM
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This is how i would fix it
I like it a lot. The intersection should have been squared off to begin with.
Only thing I'd change is to allow left turns from business access road (in the bottom right of the image) onto the main road, and eliminate the left turn from the main road. A right turn slip lane in the top left of the image would supplant the missing left turn.
Alternatively, you could just make the business access road RIRO-only. The roundabout fills in the missing movements.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 03, 2016, 12:43:51 AM
Quote from: JMAN12343610 on August 03, 2016, 12:12:38 AM
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This is how i would fix it
I like it a lot. The intersection should have been squared off to begin with.
Only thing I'd change is to allow left turns from business access road (in the bottom right of the image) onto the main road, and eliminate the left turn from the main road. A right turn slip lane in the top left of the image would supplant the missing left turn.
Alternatively, you could just make the business access road RIRO-only. The roundabout fills in the missing movements.
I originally thought about culdesaccing one end off and putting a regular t intersection at the lower right but decided to keep it this way and just disallow left turns from the business access road since you can easily make a u turn at the roundabout.
How is this? (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhostthenpost.org%2Fuploads%2Fdc292d3ca7114478fbadbe11d2a06e9d.png&hash=ec65558564eb6418f3807128f2ab037c1d4fa6e9)
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 18, 2016, 07:09:58 PM
that and the fact that suburbs usually have more money to spend on infrastructure. Having all of these roundabouts in Carmel makes traffic so much better, there are only a handful of signals left, and the ultimate goal is to have only 1 signal left in the entire city. The only reason why the one signal won't be removed is because it is the first signal in the state of Indiana, and one of the first modern ones in the US. this is the location of the signal: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9783909,-86.127055,3a,75y,15h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sd7J_FDFsaI1Fw4JiQFn7-g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dd7J_FDFsaI1Fw4JiQFn7-g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D392%26h%3D106%26yaw%3D15.4735%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656
Carmel is planning to install a traffic light at the 136th Street and Keystone Parkway roundabout to ease congestion at the roundabout. It will be hard to achieve the Mayor's goal of eliminating all traffic signals in the city (except one) if they are actively installing traffic signals at roundabouts.
http://currentincarmel.com/traffic-light-planned-to-ease-congestion-at-136th-street-and-keystone-parkway-roundabout
One other thing. If Mayor Jim Brainard believes so strongly that roundabouts are safer than traffic signals, why keep the first Indiana traffic signal running in his city? Doesn't it belong in some museum on Main Street where it's no longer a danger to the fine motorists of Carmel? I guess Jim Brainard's ideology only runs so deep.
Quote from: tradephoric on August 17, 2016, 05:04:00 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 18, 2016, 07:09:58 PM
that and the fact that suburbs usually have more money to spend on infrastructure. Having all of these roundabouts in Carmel makes traffic so much better, there are only a handful of signals left, and the ultimate goal is to have only 1 signal left in the entire city. The only reason why the one signal won't be removed is because it is the first signal in the state of Indiana, and one of the first modern ones in the US. this is the location of the signal: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9783909,-86.127055,3a,75y,15h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sd7J_FDFsaI1Fw4JiQFn7-g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dd7J_FDFsaI1Fw4JiQFn7-g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D392%26h%3D106%26yaw%3D15.4735%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656
Carmel is planning to install a traffic light at the 136th Street and Keystone Parkway roundabout to ease congestion at the roundabout. It will be hard to achieve the Mayor's goal of eliminating all traffic signals in the city (except one) if they are actively installing traffic signals at roundabouts.
http://currentincarmel.com/traffic-light-planned-to-ease-congestion-at-136th-street-and-keystone-parkway-roundabout
One other thing. If Mayor Jim Brainard believes so strongly that roundabouts are safer than traffic signals, why keep the first Indiana traffic signal running in his city? Doesn't it belong in some museum on Main Street where it's no longer a danger to the fine motorists of Carmel? I guess Jim Brainard's ideology only runs so deep.
The original signal is in a museum, and it isn't possible to put a roundabout there it's in the center of downtown, no r/w. He doesn't understand that roundabouts aren't the solution to all problems, there are several ones that didn't make things better, it made them worse.
Quote from: tradephoric on August 17, 2016, 05:04:00 PM
Carmel is planning to install a traffic light at the 136th Street and Keystone Parkway roundabout to ease congestion at the roundabout. It will be hard to achieve the Mayor's goal of eliminating all traffic signals in the city (except one) if they are actively installing traffic signals at roundabouts.
It's only a matter of time...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wesleyjohnston.com%2Froads%2Fimages%2F20111109a515culmore.jpg&hash=05c60f556385a54b0b1a077dce41cc92050ba1c4)
The problem with signalized roundabouts in the UK isn't that they're signalized roundabouts per se. The problem is that Highways England (and their predecessors) use them to cheap out on building any sort of interchange (or build an underpowered interchange, usually some sort of roundabout-with-flyover) at traffic levels that would make a North American or German traffic engineer faint.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 17, 2016, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on August 17, 2016, 05:04:00 PM
Carmel is planning to install a traffic light at the 136th Street and Keystone Parkway roundabout to ease congestion at the roundabout. It will be hard to achieve the Mayor's goal of eliminating all traffic signals in the city (except one) if they are actively installing traffic signals at roundabouts.
It's only a matter of time...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wesleyjohnston.com%2Froads%2Fimages%2F20111109a515culmore.jpg&hash=05c60f556385a54b0b1a077dce41cc92050ba1c4)
That almost looks like a Turbine Square
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 17, 2016, 09:54:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 17, 2016, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on August 17, 2016, 05:04:00 PM
Carmel is planning to install a traffic light at the 136th Street and Keystone Parkway roundabout to ease congestion at the roundabout. It will be hard to achieve the Mayor's goal of eliminating all traffic signals in the city (except one) if they are actively installing traffic signals at roundabouts.
It's only a matter of time...
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/images/20111109a515culmore.jpg
That almost looks like a Turbine Square
I'm not sure what that is, but the roundabout pictured is not perfectly circular. It's sort of oval-y.
It's the A515/Culmore Rd Roundabout in County Derry, North Ireland. Here's another angle:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fg2MRgmE.png&hash=8916b1d61fc3b6bc92ea9c0371dd8876139a5849)
Quote from: jakeroot on August 17, 2016, 09:57:24 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 17, 2016, 09:54:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 17, 2016, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on August 17, 2016, 05:04:00 PM
Carmel is planning to install a traffic light at the 136th Street and Keystone Parkway roundabout to ease congestion at the roundabout. It will be hard to achieve the Mayor's goal of eliminating all traffic signals in the city (except one) if they are actively installing traffic signals at roundabouts.
It's only a matter of time...
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/images/20111109a515culmore.jpg
That almost looks like a Turbine Square
I'm not sure what that is, but the roundabout pictured is not perfectly circular. It's sort of oval-y.
It's the A515/Culmore Rd Roundabout in County Derry, North Ireland. Here's another angle:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fg2MRgmE.png&hash=8916b1d61fc3b6bc92ea9c0371dd8876139a5849)
A turbine square was the precusor to the roundabout, it's the last picture in the link http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2057093/Google-Earth-view-London--circa-1909.html
Quote from: tradephoric on August 17, 2016, 05:04:00 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 18, 2016, 07:09:58 PM
that and the fact that suburbs usually have more money to spend on infrastructure. Having all of these roundabouts in Carmel makes traffic so much better, there are only a handful of signals left, and the ultimate goal is to have only 1 signal left in the entire city. The only reason why the one signal won't be removed is because it is the first signal in the state of Indiana, and one of the first modern ones in the US. this is the location of the signal: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9783909,-86.127055,3a,75y,15h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sd7J_FDFsaI1Fw4JiQFn7-g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dd7J_FDFsaI1Fw4JiQFn7-g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D392%26h%3D106%26yaw%3D15.4735%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656
Carmel is planning to install a traffic light at the 136th Street and Keystone Parkway roundabout to ease congestion at the roundabout. It will be hard to achieve the Mayor's goal of eliminating all traffic signals in the city (except one) if they are actively installing traffic signals at roundabouts.
http://currentincarmel.com/traffic-light-planned-to-ease-congestion-at-136th-street-and-keystone-parkway-roundabout
One other thing. If Mayor Jim Brainard believes so strongly that roundabouts are safer than traffic signals, why keep the first Indiana traffic signal running in his city? Doesn't it belong in some museum on Main Street where it's no longer a danger to the fine motorists of Carmel? I guess Jim Brainard's ideology only runs so deep.
These will act more like a ramp meter than a traditional traffic signal and will be to address the very specific issue of the high school traffic exiting or entering all at once and monopolizing one leg of the roundabout. They won't be operating all the time, just when needed to provide a break so that traffic won't back up onto Keystone Parkway. Let's wait to see how this actually works in practice before condemning it.