Quote from: roadman65 on September 04, 2013, 07:51:14 AM
I was wondering are there any other such US designations that do not make any turns like US 192 in its entire run?
This other thread got me thinking–what Interstate designations maintain the through movement for their entire length? In other words, the grading and markings are such that, if you went "straight" at every possibly interchange, you would stay on the same Interstate. And better yet, what are the longest of these?
Many long-distance designations–like I-90 exiting the Berkshire Connector near Albany and I-70 exiting the PA Turnpike at New Stanton–obviously wouldn't qualify. There's definitely some gray area involving 50/50 splits and left exits. I'd argue that I-81 near Lebanon, PA is graded as if I-78 was the through movement and therefore wouldn't qualify. And at Alexandria, I'd say I-395 looks and feels more like the through movement–although I-95 is out of the running for other obvious reasons.
does the western I-84 manage it? I forget what it looks like offhand in Portland, but I believe it survives both ends of the 15/84 multiplex.
I-27, probably.
I-29, maybe.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 04, 2013, 02:02:24 PM
does the western I-84 manage it? I forget what it looks like offhand in Portland, but I believe it survives both ends of the 15/84 multiplex.
Nope. (http://goo.gl/maps/i1L7N) Going straight puts you on the oft-maligned I-86.
it's not a 50/50 split? or does that not count?
Both lanes eastbound go "through" to I-86. To stay on I-84, it's a single-lane exit.
ETA: Also, the northern I-15 split, yes, but not the southern one. It's not a 50/50 split, and you definitely have to exit right as opposed to going straight to stay on I-84.
I-99?
damn ... I-15 makes it all the way to I-90 from San Diego with only a few 50/50 splits (215 north end in SoCal, 84/15 north split in Utah) before 90 mercilessly eats it and spits it out again.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 04, 2013, 02:19:19 PM
it's not a 50/50 split? or does that not count?
Like I said, it's a gray area. 50/50 splits are probably OK because either motion (or neither of them) could be argued to be the through movement. But it does make for less of a "clean" answer.
What about I-25? I think that one does.
Quote from: corco on September 04, 2013, 07:14:28 PM
What about I-25? I think that one does.
Correct!
I-81 only has two 50/50 splits northbound. Four southbound. Pretty amazing for a route that long.
I-878 :rofl:
I-195 in NJ, I-276 in PA, I476 as well
Quote from: SteveG1988 on September 04, 2013, 08:21:55 PM
possibly i-76 (east)
Hell no. It turns off at Youngstown and Valley Forge.
I-76 west does though, as does I-82, I-86, I-17, I-8, and I-19
I-16, I think.
I-495 in Massachusetts (one of the long 3dis)
I-91 going south (going north, I-391 in MA goes straight)
___
Text below this sentence is 10 minutes after text above this sentence.
___
Quote from: Thing 342 on September 04, 2013, 09:12:56 PM
I-16, I think.
Yes, I-16.
I-88 in New York, but that's just because it doesn't have any interstates in the middle.
I-89.
I-2. :colorful:
The junction with MA 3 on I-93 messes it up. :pan:
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 04, 2013, 02:02:24 PM
I-29, maybe.
I'm going to lean towards no for southbound, given the left exit for IA 192 on the north side of Council Bluffs:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=council+bluffs,+ia&hl=en&ll=41.287854,-95.867414&spn=0.004828,0.008256&sll=41.287461,-95.866243&sspn=0.003414,0.008256&hnear=Council+Bluffs,+Pottawattamie,+Iowa&t=k&z=18&layer=c&cbll=41.287854,-95.867414&panoid=SUpKbVuxMTY6WbiIpbogVg&cbp=12,186.67,,0,-1.75 (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=council+bluffs,+ia&hl=en&ll=41.287854,-95.867414&spn=0.004828,0.008256&sll=41.287461,-95.866243&sspn=0.003414,0.008256&hnear=Council+Bluffs,+Pottawattamie,+Iowa&t=k&z=18&layer=c&cbll=41.287854,-95.867414&panoid=SUpKbVuxMTY6WbiIpbogVg&cbp=12,186.67,,0,-1.75)
Northbound appears to meet the criteria, but this may change with the rebuild of joint section with I-80.
Going down the list (http://cmap.m-plex.com/stat/system.php?u=blank&sys=usai&du=mi&sort=td#th), everything longer than I-25 is a no. So, that's the winner.
So, counter question: what's the shortest interstate that doesn't maintain the through movement?
Depending on how we interpret traffic circles the answer might be I-587. If we don't count that, then it's I-790.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 04, 2013, 03:00:55 PM
I-99?
No, US 322 is the through movement at State College.
Quote from: Steve on September 05, 2013, 12:30:14 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 04, 2013, 03:00:55 PM
I-99?
No, US 322 is the through movement at State College.
I'd have to disagree... having driving thru it a couple of times, the interchange was set up to make I-99 clearly the thru movement. (even though, historically, US-322
was the through movement.)
Quote from: briantroutman on September 04, 2013, 02:00:28 PM
I'd argue that I-81 near Lebanon, PA is graded as if I-78 was the through movement and therefore wouldn't qualify.
I suppose it could be an arguable point... though I'd firmly side with I-81 being the through movement. Mostly cause of the striping & signage.
Quote from: Kacie Jane on September 04, 2013, 02:18:03 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 04, 2013, 02:02:24 PM
does the western I-84 manage it? I forget what it looks like offhand in Portland, but I believe it survives both ends of the 15/84 multiplex.
Nope. (http://goo.gl/maps/i1L7N) Going straight puts you on the oft-maligned I-86.
Also, technically when heading West, if you don't exit at I-205, you end up on 205.
I-90 actually looses it at Billings, MT, as I-94 is the mainline.
I believe that I-96 in Michigan qualifies, as the mainline around Lansing, in both directions is I-96, and at I-275, the primary/majority of the lanes exiting are I-96, whereas I-275 veers off, and is the smaller of the two exits.
It might be easier to think of non-3di routes within a particular state.
I-97*. :bigass:
*though at the beltway interchange, it's not clear which way is the mainline.
QuoteI-91 going south (going north, I-391 in MA goes straight)
I-91 is the through movement here...just because I-391 in this case "goes straight" doesn't mean it's the through movement, as the I-91 mainline itself is in the middle of a curve. Plus, 391 is signed as an exit.
So I-91 counts. And since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I believe I-79 does as well, depending on how one defines the 79/279 split in Franklin Park (I'd call it a 50/50).
I-4
I-238 :spin:
However, CA I-580 apparently doesn't qualify, as going westbound and missing the "exit" in Castro Valley puts you on 238.
Quote from: Duke87 on September 04, 2013, 09:55:28 PM
So, counter question: what's the shortest interstate that doesn't maintain the through movement?
Depending on how we interpret traffic circles the answer might be I-587. If we don't count that, then it's I-790.
I am not convinced I-587 even goes through the traffic circle. NYSDOT says it doesn't exist anywhere NY 28 isn't overlapping.
Quote from: froggie on September 05, 2013, 04:53:28 AM
And since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I believe I-79 does as well, depending on how one defines the 79/279 split in Franklin Park (I'd call it a 50/50).
Wouldn't the two I-70 intersections disqualify it?
But I-68 would certainly count.
Interstate 37
The southern I-49 (for now)
Quote from: Mr_Northside on September 05, 2013, 12:50:07 AM
Quote from: Steve on September 05, 2013, 12:30:14 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 04, 2013, 03:00:55 PM
I-99?
No, US 322 is the through movement at State College.
I'd have to disagree... having driving thru it a couple of times, the interchange was set up to make I-99 clearly the thru movement. (even though, historically, US-322 was the through movement.)
And ya know something? I've been through there several times, and it just FEELS like it's not the through movement, the way it rises up so high and comes back down, whereas US 322 stays at ground level.
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on September 05, 2013, 07:27:05 AM
I-238 :spin:
How do you figure? I-238 looks straight through between its endpoints at I-580 and I-880.
Quote from: Steve on September 05, 2013, 06:16:48 PM
Quote from: Mr_Northside on September 05, 2013, 12:50:07 AM
Quote from: Steve on September 05, 2013, 12:30:14 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 04, 2013, 03:00:55 PM
I-99?
No, US 322 is the through movement at State College.
I'd have to disagree... having driving thru it a couple of times, the interchange was set up to make I-99 clearly the thru movement. (even though, historically, US-322 was the through movement.)
And ya know something? I've been through there several times, and it just FEELS like it's not the through movement, the way it rises up so high and comes back down, whereas US 322 stays at ground level.
While that's a valid point, both of the 2 lanes approaching the interchange go to 99, while the two 322 lanes are added, both north- and southbound 99 is on the left, and, while the signs all just use straight down arrows (not even any exit only), 322 is signed as an exit. I think 99 is definitively the through movement.
Decide for yourself:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.formulanone.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F01%2FInt99nExit73-US322e-RedBlueDetour.jpg&hash=cb9eb086c2ec9365ea72d867e3a313c4d4d71592)
Yeah, I-99 is the through movement. I usually qualify through movements on whether the road merges on the right or not. I-99 doesn't merge with anything, and both carriageways are side by side through the interchange. If that isn't a through movement, I don't know what is.
This photo here is not interstate, but being that people here are talking about the I-99 and US 322 split in State College brings up an interesting point.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.staticflickr.com%2F5322%2F9672465292_785ea29e49_c.jpg&hash=d1844db20ebc550cf6f6a7b4c8354380cb0cba8d)
It can easily be considered a 50/50 with such a diverge. If this here split near Shreveport were two interstates splitting it could be arguable here of which is the straight through route here.
US 71 goes straight, but LA 1 goes left and diverges, but US 71 drops to one lane while LA 1 takes the two lanes leading into this. US 71 traffic MUST use the right lane to continue while LA 1 has to make no adjustment.
QuoteWouldn't the two I-70 intersections disqualify it?
You're right...totally forgot about the I-70 junctions. The western 70/79 junction is arguable, but the eastern junction clearly favors I-70.
Quote from: roadman65 on September 06, 2013, 08:54:56 AM
This photo here is not interstate, but being that people here are talking about the I-99 and US 322 split in State College brings up an interesting point.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.staticflickr.com%2F5322%2F9672465292_785ea29e49_c.jpg&hash=d1844db20ebc550cf6f6a7b4c8354380cb0cba8d)
Right–as I mentioned above, there are lots of gray areas. If we wanted to
be objective get really obsessive about this, we would probably have some kind of point system to assess which route is more "through"–and by how much.
It would look something like this. Each route starts with 50 points.
- Line-of-sight grading (assumably the original alignment) appears to heavily favor US 71
(
+ 20, US 71)
(
- 10, LA 1)
- Multiple lanes to LA 1
(
+ 50, LA 1)
- Single lane to US 71
(
-25, US 71)
- Pull through arrow for US 71
(
+20, US 71)
- Diagonal exit arrows for LA 1
(
-10, LA 1)
US 71: 65 points
LA 1: 80 pointsSo I'm not saying that these are the absolute right criteria or the appropriate point values, but you get the idea.
A lot of 3dis seem to maintain the through route, but not all of them. Looking locally,
* I-190 maintains the through route between I-90 and O'Hare.
* I-290 does not maintain the through route at I-355 and at I-88. In both cases, the new interstate is on the left. In the case of I-88, it's close to a 50/50 split. In the case of I-355, it's most definitely I-355 as the through route with I-290 exiting itself.
* I-294 maintains the through route for its entire length. I-80 exits off I-294.
* I-355 maintains the through route for its entire length.
* I-88 (W) maintains the through route from I-80 to I-290.
Now, a good question is, what is the shortest interstate (2di or 3di) not to maintain the through route for its entire length?
Quote from: Brandon on September 06, 2013, 12:00:39 PM
Now, a good question is, what is the shortest interstate (2di or 3di) not to maintain the through route for its entire length?
I-676 turns sharp south in Camden with US-30 continuing east. what it does just to the west, before I-95, is ... odd at best.
Another short one, though it no longer exists as of this year: In Washington, I-295 originally exited off of the Anacostia Freeway at what is now the 695/295 junction, then continued north along the 11th Street Bridge - a vestige of when 295 was supposed to continue northeast via the Pennsylvania Avenue/Barney Circle offramps from 695, as noted in this map from Scott Kozel's website:
http://www.roadstothefuture.com/DC_Area_Map_XL.jpg
Columbus's I-270 maintains through-route geometry for its entire 55 miles, beating I-97.
How about Atlanta's circumferential?
As for short routes that don't maintain through-route geometry...
I-670 exits itself westbound (in favor of Third St) and used to eastbound (in favor of I-71).
I-74 is certainly not the shortest, but it seems to have the a lot of non-through moments per mile built. (Yet another new way to answer the thread topic...)
I want to say there's a half-innerbelt in northeast Ohio (I-277?) that has to exit itself in the middle. And maybe another in Youngstown...
Quote from: vtk on September 06, 2013, 12:39:45 PM
Columbus's I-270 maintains through-route geometry for its entire 55 miles, beating I-97.
How about Atlanta's circumferential?
The western I-88 (IL) beats both at a bit over 140 miles with a maintenance of through route geometry.
Quote
As for short routes that don't maintain through-route geometry...
I-74 is certainly not the shortest, but it seems to have the a lot of non-through moments per mile built. (Yet another new way to answer the thread topic...)
Geeze, I-74 has a lot of them. Three complete changes in Illinois (with two of them in the Quad Cities) and two 50/50 splits in Illinois as well (one with I-55 eb and one with I-474 wb). Then another two complete changes in Indiana.
Interestingly, I-390 does not maintain the through route at its junction with I-590, as it forms the south and west legs of a semi-directional T with I-590 as the east leg.
However, I-390 at its other end causes I-86 to not take the through route; instead, I-86 forms the west and south legs of the interchange with I-390 as the north leg.
I-787 secretly does not take the through route where it turns across the Hudson River to Troy, and again at its south end where it secretly ends at the Thruway via ramps but publicly follows the through route to US 9W.
No single lane of I-95 continues the entire length of Delaware, most of the lanes getting thrown onto other roads at the "Megachange" southwest of Wilmington.
Quote from: Brandon on September 06, 2013, 04:59:44 PM
Geeze, I-74 has a lot of them. Three complete changes in Illinois (with two of them in the Quad Cities) and two 50/50 splits in Illinois as well (one with I-55 eb and one with I-474 wb). Then another two complete changes in Indiana.
Plus a few in North Carolina, I think...
Quote from: Brandon on September 06, 2013, 12:00:39 PM
A lot of 3dis seem to maintain the through route, but not all of them. Looking locally,
* I-190 maintains the through route between I-90 and O'Hare.
* I-290 does not maintain the through route at I-355 and at I-88. In both cases, the new interstate is on the left. In the case of I-88, it's close to a 50/50 split. In the case of I-355, it's most definitely I-355 as the through route with I-290 exiting itself.
* I-294 maintains the through route for its entire length. I-80 exits off I-294.
* I-355 maintains the through route for its entire length.
* I-88 (W) maintains the through route from I-80 to I-290.
Now, a good question is, what is the shortest interstate (2di or 3di) not to maintain the through route for its entire length?
for I-294 / tri state tollway that used to BE toll US 41 it was all one route. The area where US-41 and I-94 split seems like US-41 was the old main flow.
maybe one day I-355 or what ever will have one number when the IL-53 ext is build. Maybe some day I-290 can get put on to parts of the EOE? or maybe I-355 can go over parts of it?
Now talking about this didn't the quad city's area have some renumbering done?
As far as Akron, it is I-76 that exits from itself (SW corner of the "beltway"). I-277/US 224 maintain the through route.
I78 itself, all the roads that split from it are done on curves where the through route curves around as they exit, I.E. us22 in PA
I278
Quote from: SteveG1988 on September 09, 2013, 08:00:28 PM
I78 itself, all the roads that split from it are done on curves where the through route curves around as they exit, I.E. us22 in PA
Except westbound at NJ 139. That's more of an equal split, and I-78 is signed as an exit (as of January 2013 (https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.731974,-74.046049&spn=0.012504,0.028346&gl=us&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=40.73195,-74.046272&panoid=GqB3SQEt7Ybdfz6-4sM8cA&cbp=12,274.28,,1,-4.69)).
Quote from: SteveG1988 on September 09, 2013, 08:00:28 PM
I278
:bigass:
Quote from: NE2 on September 09, 2013, 08:59:39 PM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on September 09, 2013, 08:00:28 PM
I78 itself, all the roads that split from it are done on curves where the through route curves around as they exit, I.E. us22 in PA
Except westbound at NJ 139. That's more of an equal split, and I-78 is signed as an exit (as of January 2013 (https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.731974,-74.046049&spn=0.012504,0.028346&gl=us&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=40.73195,-74.046272&panoid=GqB3SQEt7Ybdfz6-4sM8cA&cbp=12,274.28,,1,-4.69)).
Quote from: SteveG1988 on September 09, 2013, 08:00:28 PM
I278
:bigass:
We need a trollface smiley, don't we. I-478, I-678, I-878, sure.
I-45?
It seems to do so.
Quote from: Steve on September 09, 2013, 09:50:07 PM
We need a trollface smiley, don't we. I-478, I-678, I-878, sure.
I give out one: (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skyscrapercity.com%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Ftroll.gif&hash=9db891b0ab7310f1953b0474d5855692351a3ca5).
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on September 10, 2013, 04:39:19 AM
It seems to do so.
Quote from: Steve on September 09, 2013, 09:50:07 PM
We need a trollface smiley, don't we. I-478, I-678, I-878, sure.
I give out one: (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skyscrapercity.com%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Ftroll.gif&hash=9db891b0ab7310f1953b0474d5855692351a3ca5).
You Mad?
Quote from: Mr_Northside on September 05, 2013, 12:50:07 AM
Quote from: briantroutman on September 04, 2013, 02:00:28 PM
I'd argue that I-81 near Lebanon, PA is graded as if I-78 was the through movement and therefore wouldn't qualify.
I suppose it could be an arguable point... though I'd firmly side with I-81 being the through movement. Mostly cause of the striping & signage.
If you go by striping, both lanes leading up to the split continue as I-78 east, while the two lanes for I-81 north both begin to the left leading up to the interchange. This makes 78 much more "through"... which makes sense since that's the way most traffic goes.
This, I suppose, gives us a standard objective test as to whether a road continues "through". The key question is: is it possible in theory (neglecting work zones, accident sites, etc.) to drive the entire length of the route without ever changing lanes? If the answer is no, then the route is not purely through.
Although I will grant you, the answer could be no without there being a split that doesn't favor the route... and it could also be yes with. So it is a somewhat different question.
I-41 will when it is designated next year.
Mike