AARoads Forum

Non-Road Boards => Off-Topic => Topic started by: DaBigE on September 10, 2013, 01:17:03 AM

Poll
Question: Should School Busses have Seat Belts?
Option 1: Yes
Option 2: No
Title: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: DaBigE on September 10, 2013, 01:17:03 AM
So one of our legislators in Wisconsin is proposing that all new school busses should be required to have seat belts. Article here (http://www.wkow.com/story/23386511/2013/09/10/bill-proposed-to-require-seat-belts-on-new-school-buses) What says the roadgeek community? Given that school busses are already designed to higher standards, is it a waste of money? If you have this kind of requirement in your area, how well is it working? How do you enforce this amongst 72 occasionally rowdy passengers?

Side discussion related to school busses and the state of Wisconsin--I wish they would join the other 49 states and have red and yellow lights in the upper corners. Maybe another Wisconsin roadgeek knows the rationale, but I've never understood why Wisconsin only allows red lights in the corners (oddly, WI MVC does allow the extra lights to be installed, however, they must have red lenses/LEDs until the time in which the code is changed).
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: mgk920 on September 10, 2013, 01:39:30 AM
One word here - 'Bullies'.

I was the kind who had I been a daily school bus user, there would have been plenty of ne'er-do-well classmates who would have been more than ready and willing to use them as weapons against me.

Mike
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: Brandon on September 10, 2013, 06:53:31 AM
No, IMHO, it is not a waste of money.  All school buses should have seat belts and the passengers should be required to use them.  I always felt unsafe on school buses during my school days due to the lack of them.  If seat belts were good enough for my parents' car (in which we always buckled up), they were good enough for the school bus.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: hotdogPi on September 10, 2013, 03:22:23 PM
Where I live, buses that have 8 seats have seatbelts, but the longer ones that have 24 seats don't have them*. They should have them though, otherwise people will be walking around.

*The very front row of a 24-seat bus has seatbelts, but only the very front row.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: US81 on September 10, 2013, 03:52:19 PM
Seat belts are not an effective addition to most school buses. Improperly fitted / aligned seat belts can cause significant injury, including abdominal organ rupture and spinal cord injury. The flat seats that most buses have would allow most children to "submarine" under the seat belt and not effectively restrain them.

There are lots of engineering/mechanical reasons that pediatric traumatologists are not advocating for school buses to have seat belts.

Edited to add:
The above is simply a brief presentation of the "conventional wisdom."  There is definitely some controversy out there, and I'm certain there are ways to build in and add safety to school buses. The cynical part of me is equally certain that some cite "safety" concerns when what they really have are "money" concerns. I would love for some engineers or some traumatologists to "weigh in."
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: hm insulators on September 10, 2013, 05:14:34 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on September 10, 2013, 01:39:30 AM
One word here - 'Bullies'.

I was the kind who had I been a daily school bus user, there would have been plenty of ne'er-do-well classmates who would have been more than ready and willing to use them as weapons against me.

Mike

That's one of the main reasons. Those heavy metal buckles on straps would be great weapons.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: JREwing78 on September 10, 2013, 08:03:18 PM
There's a reason they're not already required; they're not necessary. So says NHTSA. http://www.nhtsa.gov/Vehicle+Safety/Seat+Belts/Seat+Belts+on+School+Buses+--+May+2006
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: Brandon on September 10, 2013, 10:35:23 PM
Quote from: hm insulators on September 10, 2013, 05:14:34 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on September 10, 2013, 01:39:30 AM
One word here - 'Bullies'.

I was the kind who had I been a daily school bus user, there would have been plenty of ne'er-do-well classmates who would have been more than ready and willing to use them as weapons against me.

Mike

That's one of the main reasons. Those heavy metal buckles on straps would be great weapons.

Yes, great for smacking bullies back in the head with.  I never took any shit from them as a kid.  The best way to deal with a bully was to beat the shit out of him and tell them to fuck off.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: US81 on September 10, 2013, 11:44:55 PM
Another consideration would be the anchor points of the seat belt. When the anchor points are wide enough for adults - say high-school students and some junior-high kids - an elementary-school-aged child is not sufficiently restrained and is at risk of "submarining" under the seat belt rather than being restrained by the seat belt. This is the reason that booster seats are required/recommended for children under 8-12 years old, under 36-40 kg in weight and/or less than 48-50 inches tall. So, it might not be easy to find configurations that would have the capacity, versatility and safety for the varying ages (sizes) of students.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: Molandfreak on September 10, 2013, 11:58:49 PM
The bus companies always try to cram three kids in a seat, too. Seatbelts would make that problem worse.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: mgk920 on September 11, 2013, 12:45:48 AM
Quote from: Brandon on September 10, 2013, 10:35:23 PM
Quote from: hm insulators on September 10, 2013, 05:14:34 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on September 10, 2013, 01:39:30 AM
One word here - 'Bullies'.

I was the kind who had I been a daily school bus user, there would have been plenty of ne'er-do-well classmates who would have been more than ready and willing to use them as weapons against me.

Mike

That's one of the main reasons. Those heavy metal buckles on straps would be great weapons.

Yes, great for smacking bullies back in the head with.  I never took any shit from them as a kid.  The best way to deal with a bully was to beat the shit out of him and tell them to fuck off.

And whenever I tried doing that, I would get the never-ending detentions and the bullies *always* got off scot-free.  It got so bad that my parents ended up having to pull me out of the local government schools after the 8th grade and enroll me in a local Catholic H.S.  Had they not done that, I would have likely have had to drop out for my own safety by about sometime in my sophomore year.

:rolleyes:

Mike
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: Brandon on September 11, 2013, 06:49:36 AM
^^ They tried that to me.  My parents stepped in and threatened them with a lawsuit as I was defending myself.  The school dropped their bullshit.  On the second one, I got punched in the face on the way back from the bus stop in high school.  We called the police, much to the chagrin of the school district who wanted to handle it internally.  This one got frog-marched out of the school cafeteria to the applause of the other students.  he got years of community service afterward.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 11, 2013, 08:30:37 AM
All new New Jersey school buses have had seatbelts for many years now.  For the most part, the seat belts are rarely used, and that's clearly seen by anyone traveling behind a school bus.

I'm sure there's many parents that send their children on these buses, thinking their angel is using them all the time. And I'm sure a few do, but largely they do not.  School students are supposed to wear them, but a bus driver isn't about to delay their route for infinity to verify everyone has a seatbelt on.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 11, 2013, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on September 11, 2013, 12:45:48 AM
And whenever I tried doing that, I would get the never-ending detentions and the bullies *always* got off scot-free. 

the one time I absolutely whaled on a bully, we both got in-school suspension.  we sat at the same table for three days.  he complained about how much his stitches hurt (I basically knocked his lips into his braces), and I silently glared at him for three days.

sometimes a "too weird to fuck with" reputation is quite helpful, especially in the 7th grade.  (in other news, fuck 7th grade.)
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: kkt on September 11, 2013, 06:59:53 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 11, 2013, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on September 11, 2013, 12:45:48 AM
And whenever I tried doing that, I would get the never-ending detentions and the bullies *always* got off scot-free. 

the one time I absolutely whaled on a bully, we both got in-school suspension.  we sat at the same table for three days.  he complained about how much his stitches hurt (I basically knocked his lips into his braces), and I silently glared at him for three days.

sometimes a "too weird to fuck with" reputation is quite helpful, especially in the 7th grade.  (in other news, fuck 7th grade.)

My daughter is on Week Two of 7th grade.  I hope she has better luck.  I gather the fairer sex has other, less physical but just as painful ways of fucking with each other.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: Molandfreak on September 11, 2013, 07:01:36 PM
Jeez, does every roadgeek have a bully story? In sixth grade, I gave an eighth grader a bloody nose for repeatedly hacking my email (the school didn't do shit to help me with this problem).
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 11, 2013, 07:05:53 PM
Quote from: kkt on September 11, 2013, 06:59:53 PM

My daughter is on Week Two of 7th grade.  I hope she has better luck.  I gather the fairer sex has other, less physical but just as painful ways of fucking with each other.

honestly, I'm the last person to ask.  I noticed girls as early as the 4th or so grade when the standard biological stirrings decided to point me to "guess what, you're heterosexual!" - but I didn't talk to them much 'til about 10th.  so I couldn't tell you how they operate in 7th.

it can probably be shown that I haven't escaped loser status even to this day (age 32) but I think I was better than median popularity by about 11th.

(so, fuck everything before ~10th-11th grade?  seems like that's when a critical mass of people have their shit together and one can choose to learn from them.)
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: Big John on September 11, 2013, 09:38:39 PM
7th grade.  Was getting bullied everywhere, and it was in vogue to always blame the victim, as they "did something to deserve it".   :rolleyes:

For the bus situation, there was public transit that stopped in front of the school, but the bus schedule had it a couple of minutes before the school day ended.  But the vice principal saw what was going on and ordered the teacher in my last class to let me out early so I could catch that bus so I wouldn't get tortured on the school bus. (This was after I decided to walk home from school one day to avoid the bullies and it was deemed too far for me to walk.)
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: vdeane on September 11, 2013, 10:40:05 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on September 11, 2013, 07:01:36 PM
Jeez, does every roadgeek have a bully story? In sixth grade, I gave an eighth grader a bloody nose for repeatedly hacking my email (the school didn't do shit to help me with this problem).
No idea, but I was bullied all the way through middle school as well.  It's probably the reason why I have a hard time dealing with people to this day.  I have trust issues and am NOT comfortable around people I don't know.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: Thing 342 on September 11, 2013, 10:53:07 PM
My school district did a pretty good job of cracking down on bullying, but I still hated 6th and 7th grade.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: mgk920 on September 12, 2013, 12:48:15 PM
Quote from: kkt on September 11, 2013, 06:59:53 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 11, 2013, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on September 11, 2013, 12:45:48 AM
And whenever I tried doing that, I would get the never-ending detentions and the bullies *always* got off scot-free. 

the one time I absolutely whaled on a bully, we both got in-school suspension.  we sat at the same table for three days.  he complained about how much his stitches hurt (I basically knocked his lips into his braces), and I silently glared at him for three days.

sometimes a "too weird to fuck with" reputation is quite helpful, especially in the 7th grade.  (in other news, fuck 7th grade.)

My daughter is on Week Two of 7th grade.  I hope she has better luck.  I gather the fairer sex has other, less physical but just as painful ways of fucking with each other.

In many ways, females are far worse than the guys, as while males generally resort to physical violence and little else beyond that, females typically go straight for the psychological jugulars - and are merciless while so doing.

I wish her luck.

Mike
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: Zeffy on September 12, 2013, 06:25:18 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on September 11, 2013, 07:01:36 PM
Jeez, does every roadgeek have a bully story? In sixth grade, I gave an eighth grader a bloody nose for repeatedly hacking my email (the school didn't do shit to help me with this problem).

I don't - I was never picked on (at least to the point I would call it bullying) nor did I pick on anyone. (unless they were unaware - I don't say things to people directly to their face, if they don't know about it I consider it not to be bullying.)
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 12, 2013, 06:28:47 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on September 12, 2013, 06:25:18 PM(unless they were unaware - I don't say things to people directly to their face, if they don't know about it I consider it not to be bullying.)

I think that might still count.

Zeffy: "hey Bob, I hear Tony is a devil worshipper"
Bob: "interesting point, I will not speak of it to anyone"

Bob, later: "hey, Tony, you're a devil worshipper!  I mean hi."
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: ET21 on September 12, 2013, 11:14:02 PM
I can thank dodgeball for getting bullies off my back. I could never get back at them, would always get in trouble.

Then came the awesome day of dodgeball in gym. I was one of the better dodgers, but was never known for an arm. Being one of the last 3 against 1 during the game, I took a ball, whipped it, and hit him square in the face hard. Nose bleeding, he just stared back at me, and I just shrugged.

Little off-topic, but that's my bully story
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: Alps on September 14, 2013, 12:06:42 AM
I wasn't a bus rider, but for field trips or team buses, etc., they all had seatbelts. Very few kids wore them.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: Crazy Volvo Guy on September 25, 2013, 03:41:49 AM
Quote from: Brandon on September 10, 2013, 10:35:23 PMYes, great for smacking bullies back in the head with.  I never took any shit from them as a kid.  The best way to deal with a bully was to beat the shit out of him and tell them to fuck off.

Sad part?  Today, that would get you in deep, deep shit with the school...while the bully would get a slap on the wrist...if even that.

Schools, advocating and actively encouraging bullying since the 1990s.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: 1995hoo on September 25, 2013, 09:05:51 AM
Going back to the seat belts, I seem to recall a period in the late 1980s where some of the newer school buses here in Fairfax County had them. None of us ever wore them and, as others have suggested, some people used to swing the buckles at each other (the buckles were airplane-style). I assume they stopped installing them because every once in a while the local "junk papers" (the free papers they throw in your driveway once a week or give away at the Metrorail) might have someone asking why school buses don't have them.

The talk of bullying makes me think how I'm glad not to be a kid today what with mobile phone videos and the ability for people to share them with the whole world on the Internet.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: SteveG1988 on September 25, 2013, 07:09:13 PM
Quote from: Crazy Volvo Guy on September 25, 2013, 03:41:49 AM
Quote from: Brandon on September 10, 2013, 10:35:23 PMYes, great for smacking bullies back in the head with.  I never took any shit from them as a kid.  The best way to deal with a bully was to beat the shit out of him and tell them to fuck off.

Sad part?  Today, that would get you in deep, deep shit with the school...while the bully would get a slap on the wrist...if even that.

Schools, advocating and actively encouraging bullying since the 1990s.

In 2006 i was in history class, guy kept throwing stuff ay my head, i snapped when we had a substitute, hit him then attempted to run off once i realized what i had done, he tackled me infront of the assistant principal office (right around the corner) and we both got hit with 3 days suspension
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: hbelkins on September 25, 2013, 08:45:37 PM
Veering off-topic here, but there are laws against bullying, in practice if not specifically by name. Last time I checked, such things as assault, theft by unlawful taking, harassing communications and terroristic threatening are illegal.

I honestly don't see why more parents of bullied children don't seek criminal charges against the little urchins doing the bullying. When the parents have to hire lawyers and miss work to have their spawn's behaviors addressed in the court system, maybe they'd finally get the point and do something to rein in their little miscreants. It might be juvenile court and the little beasts might not be stuck with records, but it would certainly inconvenience the parents enough to make them make their brats behave.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: triplemultiplex on September 26, 2013, 12:40:41 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 25, 2013, 08:45:37 PM
I honestly don't see why more parents of bullied children don't seek criminal charges against the little urchins doing the bullying. When the parents have to hire lawyers and miss work to have their spawn's behaviors addressed in the court system, maybe they'd finally get the point and do something to rein in their little miscreants. It might be juvenile court and the little beasts might not be stuck with records, but it would certainly inconvenience the parents enough to make them make their brats behave.

Lawyers cost money and court dates cost time for plaintiffs, too.
The shittiest thing about being bullied the shame of admitting that some assface is bullying you to someone of authority; even one's own parents.  It's a really difficult obstacle to overcome.  I never admitted to anyone the shit I got from certain dicktards in my youth.  It was embarrassing.



I have yet to see one good argument against children wearing seat belts on the damn bus.  Travel by motor vehicle is the single most dangerous thing kids do on a typical day, statistically speaking.  Just because you or I didn't have belts doesn't mean that was the right way to go.  It is literally the equivalent of saying, "I've never been in an accident; why should I wear a seat belt?"

Here everyone, just watch some little children being maimed and killed and see if you still think they shouldn't wear belts.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=school+bus+accident&oq=school+bus+accident (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=school+bus+accident&oq=school+bus+accident)
Look at any of that at come back and tell me school buses shouldn't have fucking seat belts.  You will be wrong.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: Molandfreak on September 26, 2013, 01:43:52 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 26, 2013, 12:40:41 AM
The shittiest thing about being bullied the shame of admitting that some assface is bullying you to someone of authority; even one's own parents.  It's a really difficult obstacle to overcome.  I never admitted to anyone the shit I got from certain dicktards in my youth.  It was embarrassing.
Maybe I got off lucky, but I never had to worry about losing friends over being a tattletale. I even blackmailed the guy that hacked my email that I would tell authority if he kept it up (of course, authority wouldn't help so I took matters into my own hands). Never had a problem with that. If you lose some friends, they were shitty friends.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: triplemultiplex on September 26, 2013, 02:21:23 AM
Quote from: Molandfreak on September 26, 2013, 01:43:52 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 26, 2013, 12:40:41 AM
The shittiest thing about being bullied the shame of admitting that some assface is bullying you to someone of authority; even one's own parents.  It's a really difficult obstacle to overcome.  I never admitted to anyone the shit I got from certain dicktards in my youth.  It was embarrassing.
Maybe I got off lucky, but I never had to worry about losing friends over being a tattletale. I even blackmailed the guy that hacked my email that I would tell authority if he kept it up (of course, authority wouldn't help so I took matters into my own hands). Never had a problem with that. If you lose some friends, they were shitty friends.
Yeah, I'm not talking about losing face among peers.  I'm talking about telling mommy or daddy or a teacher or whatever that somebody's picking on you.  Asking for help in a situation where society strongly suggests you take care of it yourself; in contrast to the bold tales of young men who are able to stand up to their aggressors; here and elsewhere.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: US81 on September 26, 2013, 08:31:06 AM
I'm glad there has been a return to the topic of seat belt use. I'm going to cautiously proceed in the hope that discussion can be civil.

Just having a seat belt across a child does not prevent injury - it must fit the child correctly. Plenty of kids get injured by ill-fitting or misplaced seat belts in cars and trucks. If a seat belt does not sit across the bony part of a child's hips but has moved up across the abdomen, compression can injure organs and the lumbar spinal cord causing paraplegia. Misplaced shoulder belts cause neck and chest trauma that can be lethal. As I pointed out above, belts with adult-sized anchor points will allow a child to submarine under the belt; this may only cause lower extremity trauma but at high speeds does not prevent the child from becoming a projectile. This is why child seats and booster seats are recommended or mandated.

So, does the risk of seat belt (mis-)use outweigh the risk of being completely unrestrained? Can we mitigate these risks? How do we design systems that are adaptable to child-sized and adult-sized children?
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: hbelkins on September 26, 2013, 10:31:04 AM
My understanding is that modern school bus seats are designed to eliminate the need for seat belts as a safety item.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: US81 on September 26, 2013, 10:47:47 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 26, 2013, 10:31:04 AM
My understanding is that modern school bus seats are designed to eliminate the need for seat belts as a safety item.

The concept is called compartmentalization. Each row of high-back seats form a compartment that encloses each group of children to prevent them from being thrown very far. Those few tests that have been done show this works - sort of - for front-impact and rear-impact but very poorly for side-impact.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: SteveG1988 on September 26, 2013, 02:41:02 PM
I remember a few buses in my town still having no seatbelts, they were made in the 80s. SOme had belts retrofitted and others just were retired after 12 years, which is the law for conventional style buses, not the transit style.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: triplemultiplex on September 26, 2013, 11:09:06 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 26, 2013, 10:31:04 AM
My understanding is that modern school bus seats are designed to eliminate the need for seat belts as a safety item.

I would characterize it as "reducing harm to unrestrained passengers" more so than "eliminating the need for seat belts."

It's the best they can do since 'we' can't be bothered to mandate one of the most effective safety devices in all of transportation on the damn school bus.  Seat belts have literally saved millions of lives.  Yet somehow there's always an excuse not to use them on school buses?   "Oh it's to hard to make kids wear em; they might hit each other with them; they might not wear them right; they might turn them into a noose and hang themselves..." I may have made one of those up, but I still call bullshit.

Considering the stupid crap society does to ostensibly protect children, this one seems like really small potatoes.  Motor vehicle collisions are the single greatest physical threat in the US to everyone's little rug rat, nose-miner and wunderkind.  I have yet to hear a good argument against sticking seat belts in buses and making the little bastards wear 'em.  If it was already required, it wouldn't even be a debate.  We'd all be like, "Of course you wear your seat belt on the school bus.  What are you, stupid?"  This is not as hard as some want it to be.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: DaBigE on September 26, 2013, 11:38:49 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 26, 2013, 10:31:04 AM
My understanding is that modern school bus seats are designed to eliminate the need for seat belts as a safety item.

How about coach busses or city busses?
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: Jardine on November 03, 2013, 01:27:58 PM
IIRC, this topic merited some national discussion back in the late 70s.  The prevailing argument was that it would cost (at that time) $100 million dollars to retrofit all the nations school buses, and they would save (if used properly and consistently) a literal handful of children every year.

On the other hand, $100 million dollars spent on sanitation in 3rd world countries, for instance, could save tens of thousands of children.  So too vaccinations, and several other programs, both here and abroad.

So it came down to priorities and how badly folks wanted to spend money to save a (relatively) small number of children.


I guess today, if our nation had a large surplus of cash, gold, jewels, and silver we would be discussing whether or not to be installing airbags on every seat . . .

Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: PColumbus73 on November 04, 2013, 10:03:10 PM
Generally speaking, most crashes involving school buses are relatively minor, so there won't be a need for seatbelts on buses.
Title: Re: Seat Belts on School Busses
Post by: 1995hoo on November 05, 2013, 08:36:16 AM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on November 04, 2013, 10:03:10 PM
Generally speaking, most crashes involving school buses are relatively minor, so there won't be a need for seatbelts on buses.

I remember being on the school bus when the driver rear-ended someone at the old one-lane bridge on Woodburn Road here in Fairfax County in the late 1970s. We were all fine. The car, not so much–it was a VW Beetle and the school bus's slightly elevated bumper appeared to have done some damage to the car's engine (obviously it was a rear-engined air-cooled Beetle).

I've heard some of the school bus manufacturers have contended that the seats' design (not a lot of space between them and high backs) makes seat belts of lesser value because kids can't easily be thrown any distance. I gather seats have higher backs now than they did when I was a kid (we moved in the early 1980s and after moving we walked to school). I have no idea whether there's any validity to that.