The federal government's considering designating the Pullman historical district in Chicago an urban national park.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-pullman-neighborhood-clears-national-park-status-hurdle-20130909,0,4461045.story
According to google, I-94 passes through Pullman, IL near Chicago's south side, though I'm not sure the entire community of Pullman encompasses the historical district that's being considered as a national park?
And US-12/20 (95th street) also borders Pullman's north side too.
So if the federal government starts designating national parks in urban ares, will this affect the designation of US highways or even interstates since when a US highway enters a rural national park like Yellowstone, it's technically no longer a US highway.
I know that this has been discussed to death (yawn), but is your last statement -- "it's technically no longer a US highway" -- actually true? Yellowstone I know has no signage, and I've never been, but I've heard similar things about Great Smoky Mountains. But I know there are cases where highways are signed within national parks -- although perhaps not beyond the entrance gate? US 101 never loses signage around the Olympics despite sneaking within the park boundary twice. And these aren't US highways, but SR 410 and SR 123 intersect within Mt. Rainier National Park at a well-signed junction. (SR 706, however, does end at the boundary -- but the road that would be signed as an extension of 706 is between two fee gates.)
Yellowstone is the only actual gap. Other national parks have signed routes.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usends.com%2F30-39%2F036%2Fbegin036w_eb_2011.jpg&hash=a9ee3a278e3ccd3e871bf929f3c6da38ade5ab4c)
from http://www.usends.com/30-39/036/036.html
I've been to the Smokies several times and I'm pretty sure US 441 isn't signed on Newfound Gap Road.
But I would expect US routes to remain signed, probably with standard signage, inside any urban national parks.
Cuyahoga Valley National Park is relatively urban. What's the route signage situation there?
US 17 and various state routes (even SRs) are thoroughly signed in VA's Colonial National Historical Park.
I'm pretty sure there are ME state routes signed in Acadia National Park.
Most urban national parks with which I'm familiar (Boston, Lowell, New Bedford, Paterson, etc.) are a collection of sites of mixed ownership within a given district. I don't think signing highways is usually within their purview.
All state roads in Cuyahoga Valley NP are signed by ODOT.
Mammoth Caves NP in Kentucky is mostly unsigned. There are some I-65 shields to direct people out, but KY 70 and 255 have no signs within the park.
It is signed at the eastern KY 70 and 255 junction, which is outside of the park.
The only time KY 255 is signed southward at Park City is at US 31W, not at I-65 or elsewhere - which is even more odd, since it's listed on the guide signs for I-65.
KY 70 has few signs at or near I-65, and none on the ramps that I could make out.
KY 70 is signed at the western entrance to the park.
Great Smokey Mountains has signage right outside of the park in Gatlinburg (http://goo.gl/maps/8VfET)
Quote from: Lyon Wonder on September 10, 2013, 06:05:08 PM
The federal government's considering designating the Pullman historical district in Chicago an urban national park.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-pullman-neighborhood-clears-national-park-status-hurdle-20130909,0,4461045.story
According to google, I-94 passes through Pullman, IL near Chicago's south side, though I'm not sure the entire community of Pullman encompasses the historical district that's being considered as a national park?
And US-12/20 (95th street) also borders Pullman's north side too.
So if the federal government starts designating national parks in urban ares, will this affect the designation of US highways or even interstates since when a US highway enters a rural national park like Yellowstone, it's technically no longer a US highway.
No. 95th Street and the Calumet Expressway (Bishop Ford - feh) will retain their numerical designations.
Quote from: Sherman Cahal on September 10, 2013, 09:26:17 PM
All state roads in Cuyahoga Valley NP are signed by ODOT.
Mammoth Caves NP in Kentucky is mostly unsigned. There are some I-65 shields to direct people out, but KY 70 and 255 have no signs within the park.
It is signed at the eastern KY 70 and 255 junction, which is outside of the park.
The only time KY 255 is signed southward at Park City is at US 31W, not at I-65 or elsewhere - which is even more odd, since it's listed on the guide signs for I-65.
KY 70 has few signs at or near I-65, and none on the ramps that I could make out.
KY 70 is signed at the western entrance to the park.
The old-style county maps of that area distinctly show that state maintenance ends at the park boundaries. KY 70 and KY 255 officially do not exist in Mammoth Cave NP. The park boundaries have been extended along the putative KY 255 all th way to the I-65 interchange.
US 33 and US 211 are definitely signed within Shenandoah Nat'l Park. Per the traffic logs, these roads are under VDOT jurisdiction which is why they are likely posted.
Mapmikey
U.S. 1 and U.S. 50 cross the National Mall in the District of Columbia, and are clearly signed. U.S. 1 North as 14th Street and south as 15th Street, U.S. 50 as Constitution Avenue, N.W.
Additionally, a short section of U.S. 50 is the NPS maintained Baltimore-Washington Parkway (just east of the Anacostia River in Maryland) and it is also clearly signed.
Back in D.C., I-395/U.S. 1 cross Potomac Park, and are also signed.
This sign was posted near the Sugarlands Visitor Center in GSMNP about 15 years ago. Don't know whether it is still there or not.
It indicates that the numbered routes are NOT signed within the park.
Also notice the old-style Tennessee route marker.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millenniumhwy.net%2Finterestingsigns%2Ftn%2F441-73parksign.jpg&hash=a4c2f1aac12c2924f84749011de0fb9df2e7f204)
Quote from: Lyon Wonder on September 10, 2013, 06:05:08 PM
The federal government's considering designating the Pullman historical district in Chicago an urban national park.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-pullman-neighborhood-clears-national-park-status-hurdle-20130909,0,4461045.story
According to google, I-94 passes through Pullman, IL near Chicago's south side, though I'm not sure the entire community of Pullman encompasses the historical district that's being considered as a national park?
And US-12/20 (95th street) also borders Pullman's north side too.
So if the federal government starts designating national parks in urban ares, will this affect the designation of US highways or even interstates since when a US highway enters a rural national park like Yellowstone, it's technically no longer a US highway.
Having been a national landmark since 1970, as the article says, I wouldn't be surprised if they did convert Pullman into a national park, although certainly not in the traditional sense that Yellowstone and others are.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 11, 2013, 11:49:25 AM
This sign was posted near the Sugarlands Visitor Center in GSMNP about 15 years ago. Don't know whether it is still there or not.
I was in the Gatlinburg area in January, 2010 and I found no classic TENN triangle shields. (or, in this case, TN)
as of November, 2010, the two triangles I know of are the TN-68/US-411 and the TN-99 somewhere on US-412. both are well-known so I'm too lazy to look up their exact locations.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 11, 2013, 11:49:25 AM
This sign was posted near the Sugarlands Visitor Center in GSMNP about 15 years ago. Don't know whether it is still there or not.
It indicates that the numbered routes are NOT signed within the park.
Also notice the old-style Tennessee route marker.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millenniumhwy.net%2Finterestingsigns%2Ftn%2F441-73parksign.jpg&hash=a4c2f1aac12c2924f84749011de0fb9df2e7f204)
Part of the reason Yellowstone and Great Smokey Mountains can get away with this is there are so few junctions inside the park. For example, I think this junction and the Clingman's Dome spur are the only ones on Newfound Gap Road.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 11, 2013, 11:46:40 AM
U.S. 1 and U.S. 50 cross the National Mall in the District of Columbia, and are clearly signed. U.S. 1 North as 14th Street and south as 15th Street, U.S. 50 as Constitution Avenue, N.W.
Clearly my ass. I don't think any signs remain for US 1 on 15th. (This isn't because it's in a park, however, but because of attrition.)
Quote from: NE2 on September 11, 2013, 06:05:17 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 11, 2013, 11:46:40 AM
U.S. 1 and U.S. 50 cross the National Mall in the District of Columbia, and are clearly signed. U.S. 1 North as 14th Street and south as 15th Street, U.S. 50 as Constitution Avenue, N.W.
Clearly my ass. I don't think any signs remain for US 1 on 15th. (This isn't because it's in a park, however, but because of attrition.)
US 1 and US 50 are very poorly signed in DC, I'd be surprised if anyone can follow their routes without a map!
Quote from: Kacie Jane on September 10, 2013, 06:16:17 PM
I know that this has been discussed to death (yawn), but is your last statement -- "it's technically no longer a US highway" -- actually true? Yellowstone I know has no signage, and I've never been, but I've heard similar things about Great Smoky Mountains. But I know there are cases where highways are signed within national parks -- although perhaps not beyond the entrance gate? US 101 never loses signage around the Olympics despite sneaking within the park boundary twice. And these aren't US highways, but SR 410 and SR 123 intersect within Mt. Rainier National Park at a well-signed junction. (SR 706, however, does end at the boundary -- but the road that would be signed as an extension of 706 is between two fee gates.)
I've always considered the US highways leading in and out of Yellowstone to be implied. There isn't a gap. Just that the routes are not signed inside the park. But seeing as the main route within the park is essentially a loop, taking any direction through will lead the driver to the continuation of the route they came in on. This is similar to the quibbling about I-90 and the Chicago Skyway.
I've often wondered how the US routes would be routed inside the park if the routes were signed, and used to try to find ways to give US 14 and US 16 separate endings. (Talk about your useless concurrencies...)
Quote from: FightingIrish on September 11, 2013, 09:09:11 PM
I've always considered the US highways leading in and out of Yellowstone to be implied. There isn't a gap. Just that the routes are not signed inside the park. But seeing as the main route within the park is essentially a loop, taking any direction through will lead the driver to the continuation of the route they came in on. This is similar to the quibbling about I-90 and the Chicago Skyway.
Except that AASHTO officially defines two separate sections of those routes. IIRC, the only other routes where they do this are US 2, US 10, and US 422. They certainly don't do it at any other national parks.
why does US-10 get two segments, but US-9 does not?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 11, 2013, 09:55:48 PM
why does US-10 get two segments, but US-9 does not?
I have no idea. US 10 had only one segment in the 1927 log, so it's not for historical reasons. Perhaps it's because the US 10 ferry is seasonal.
Quote from: NE2 on September 11, 2013, 09:58:50 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 11, 2013, 09:55:48 PM
why does US-10 get two segments, but US-9 does not?
I have no idea. US 10 had only one segment in the 1927 log, so it's not for historical reasons. Perhaps it's because the US 10 ferry is seasonal.
when did they change it? relative to 1979; when the US 9 ferry was formed.
I think it's just "practices of the time"
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 11, 2013, 10:06:54 PM
when did they change it? relative to 1979; when the US 9 ferry was formed.
No idea - all I have are 1927 and 1989 logs.
Quote from: silverback1065 on September 11, 2013, 08:34:54 PM
Quote from: NE2 on September 11, 2013, 06:05:17 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 11, 2013, 11:46:40 AM
U.S. 1 and U.S. 50 cross the National Mall in the District of Columbia, and are clearly signed. U.S. 1 North as 14th Street and south as 15th Street, U.S. 50 as Constitution Avenue, N.W.
Clearly my ass. I don't think any signs remain for US 1 on 15th. (This isn't because it's in a park, however, but because of attrition.)
US 1 and US 50 are very poorly signed in DC, I'd be surprised if anyone can follow their routes without a map!
Agreed. U.S. 1 Alternate is not signed at all in D.C. U.S. 29 is also poorly signed.
But crossing the NPS lands in D.C., the signing is probably O.K.
Quote from: NE2 on September 11, 2013, 09:58:50 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 11, 2013, 09:55:48 PM
why does US-10 get two segments, but US-9 does not?
I have no idea. US 10 had only one segment in the 1927 log, so it's not for historical reasons. Perhaps it's because the US 10 ferry is seasonal.
That's right. The SS Badger across Lake Michigan from Manitowoc to Ludington is considered part of US 10.
Otherwise, I do know that US 2 is a segmented route, but it was intended to be that way.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 11, 2013, 10:39:07 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on September 11, 2013, 08:34:54 PM
Quote from: NE2 on September 11, 2013, 06:05:17 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 11, 2013, 11:46:40 AM
U.S. 1 and U.S. 50 cross the National Mall in the District of Columbia, and are clearly signed. U.S. 1 North as 14th Street and south as 15th Street, U.S. 50 as Constitution Avenue, N.W.
Clearly my ass. I don't think any signs remain for US 1 on 15th. (This isn't because it's in a park, however, but because of attrition.)
US 1 and US 50 are very poorly signed in DC, I'd be surprised if anyone can follow their routes without a map!
Agreed. U.S. 1 Alternate is not signed at all in D.C. U.S. 29 is also poorly signed.
But crossing the NPS lands in D.C., the signing is probably O.K.
In the grand scheme, urban or otherwise, I'm pretty sure it comes down to who maintains the road regardless of who owns the land.
Mapmikey
Quote from: hbelkins on September 11, 2013, 09:25:07 PM
I've often wondered how the US routes would be routed inside the park if the routes were signed, and used to try to find ways to give US 14 and US 16 separate endings. (Talk about your useless concurrencies...)
There are too many U.S. routes entering Yellowstone from the east. Either 14 or 16, or both, are superfluous unless you can find a unique route for either of them to exit from the west side of the park. Probably somewhere in the archives of this board are proposed numberings of these through Yellowstone that I'm too lazy to research.
Google Maps signs them through the park, and CHM includes the mileage as well.
Quote from: vdeane on September 14, 2013, 12:15:58 AM
Google Maps signs them through the park, and CHM includes the mileage as well.
If you're talking about Yellowstone, they're wrong.
Quote from: NE2 on September 14, 2013, 12:19:27 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 14, 2013, 12:15:58 AM
Google Maps signs them through the park, and CHM includes the mileage as well.
If you're talking about Yellowstone, they're wrong.
Unless Google is also wrong about the location of Yellowstone, that's exactly what I'm talking about. You can always take it up with CHM.
Yep, CHM is wrong. If I cared, I'd care.
Quote from: NE2 on September 14, 2013, 08:47:36 PMYep, CHM is wrong. If I cared, I'd care.
The routes that they have the US routes take is from FHWA shapefiles*.
US191 from the west entrance north is signed and officially recognised by AASHTO inside the park, but none of the others are.
The 'unofficial' FHWA shapefile routings are:
US 14: West Thumb (western terminus) - Lake Village - East Entrance
US 16: West Thumb (western terminus) - Lake Village - East Entrance
US 20: West Entrance - Madison - Norris - Canyon Village - Lake Village - East Entrance
US 89: South Entrance - West Thumb - Old Faithful - Madison - Norris - Mammoth - North Entrance
US 191: South Entrance - West Thumb - Old Faithful - Madison - West Entrance
US 212: Tower Jct (western terminus) - Northeast Entrance
US 287: South Entrance - West Thumb - Old Faithful - Madison - West Entrance
*That there isn't a Yellowstone-sized gap on CHM is a consensus position dating from July 2008 and those shape files. It is a bit of an inconsistency as routes have to be signed or official (official-only with many caveats - Interstates and E roads only) and these routings are neither. This status quo may change.
I'd go with the shapefiles. Having a gap is silly. Plus if CHM deleted everything that wasn't signed, they'd have to drop all non-freeways in DC!
When I drove the entire Wyoming state highway system, I omitted the routes within the park except for the part of 191 in Montana. There's no signage within the park and the AASHTO doesn't acknowledge them, so I don't know how you consider them to be routes.
Quote from: vdeane on September 15, 2013, 01:27:55 PM
I'd go with the shapefiles. Having a gap is silly. Plus if CHM deleted everything that wasn't signed, they'd have to drop all non-freeways in DC!
Who or what is CHM?
Quote from: corco on September 15, 2013, 01:53:11 PM
When I drove the entire Wyoming state highway system, I omitted the routes within the park except for the part of 191 in Montana. There's no signage within the park and the AASHTO doesn't acknowledge them, so I don't know how you consider them to be routes.
I think this has been asked somewhere but I don't recall the outcome or where it came up - assuming route continuity, is there anywhere else where the US Highway system requires a park entry fee? I don't believe there is, in which case it makes sense why these are not officially routes.
To my knowledge no- heck, even just south of Yellowstone through Teton there is no entry fee and the routes are signed (which also lends to me thinking that the routes are not routes through Yellowstone, since the other national park in the same state immediately adjacent to the park in question has totally different practices).
16A in South Dakota goes through a national park, and you are directed towards an entry fee, but there is a sign to this effect (pardon blurriness)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corcohighways.org%2Fhighways%2Fsd%2F16a%2F89to87%2F2.jpg&hash=6c422c47722a7dff97e7c055ebad71d6d35b18b9)
that reads "Non Stop Through Traffic on 16A Exempt"
Quote from: silverback1065 on September 15, 2013, 05:36:07 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 15, 2013, 01:27:55 PM
I'd go with the shapefiles. Having a gap is silly. Plus if CHM deleted everything that wasn't signed, they'd have to drop all non-freeways in DC!
Who or what is CHM?
The Clinched Highway Mapping site
Quote from: Steve on September 15, 2013, 06:33:47 PM
I think this has been asked somewhere but I don't recall the outcome or where it came up - assuming route continuity, is there anywhere else where the US Highway system requires a park entry fee? I don't believe there is, in which case it makes sense why these are not officially routes.
Trail Ridge Road (US 34) through Rocky Mountain NP?
Quote from: NE2 on September 15, 2013, 08:52:29 PM
Quote from: Steve on September 15, 2013, 06:33:47 PM
I think this has been asked somewhere but I don't recall the outcome or where it came up - assuming route continuity, is there anywhere else where the US Highway system requires a park entry fee? I don't believe there is, in which case it makes sense why these are not officially routes.
Trail Ridge Road (US 34) through Rocky Mountain NP?
Yes, according to Rocky Mountain NP (http://www.nps.gov/romo/index.htm). The roads are marked as US-34 and US-36 on the map as well.