AARoads Forum

Amen, brother!

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/09/18/new_jersey_self_service_gasoline_the_madness_must_stop.html

That said, the article is really light on explanations as to why mandatory full-serve persists in New Jersey in spite of wide dislike from out-of-state drivers as well as technical problems, such as the tendency of pumps to shut off prematurely for some tank designs.  If there have been efforts in the past to repeal mandatory full-serve--and I would be very surprised if there haven't been--their stories remain obscure.

As the Slate article notes, Oregon has the same policy.

One additional problem Oregon has that New Jersey might not -- self-service is available only on a members-only "cardlock" system.  In some isolated rural areas, that means you can't buy gas at all without the member card, since there isn't enough population to support an attended gas pump.  That can leave out-of-town motorists SOL should they need gas in the sometimes long gaps between towns with attended gas pumps, unless a member happens to be there at the pump and can use their card to fill your tank. 

In Pelly's Crossing YT, I did find a member at the cardlock pump, and paid him cash to pump C$50 of gas into my truck.  (Yukon Territory doesn't prohibit non-cardlock self-serve pumps, it just doesn't have them everywhere you need them.)  In Mitchell OR, I wasn't so lucky, and almost ran out of gas for that reason, though I was able to drive a mostly downhill stretch of US 26 down to Prineville and limp into a gas station on fumes.

I make only modest efforts to avoid New Jersey gas pumps, since the low NJ gas tax offsets the hassle of waiting for an attendant.

I've pumped gas plenty of times myself in both Oregon and New Jersey.  find a busy enough station and you can take care of business before anyone notices you.

I got news for you, most people here in Florida would love to have full serve again! 

The whole problem is that the Unions are strong in New Jersey, which is why there are not too many Wal Mart Supercenters in the Garden State.   49 other states have full service WalMarts with supermarkets, but NJ does not.   They are so strong they even scare WalMart the one store that many have been fighting for years to not let build in their neighborhood, but have lost dramatically! 

True, agent that most will not care if you "do their job" and would a cop actually arrest you if you did anyway?

None of the several gas stations in my home city is self-serve. We might have the same rule at the municipal level or something.

So... *shrug* I guess I'm used to it; it certainly doesn't bother me in NJ.

Quote from: roadman65 on September 18, 2013, 04:00:30 PM
I got news for you, most people here in Florida would love to have full serve again! 

I feel like that would be a need that certain businesses would be happy to supply, for 20c/gal or thereabouts.

even in "other 48" states, I occasionally bump into a full-serve station - or, at least, a station which offers the possibility of full-serve, along with self-serve.

that said - if the reason Florida residents want full serve is because they're elderly and mobility-impaired: is there a Florida law which says that station attendants must provide full service, at self-serve price, to anyone with a disabled plate/placard?  CA has a law like that.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 18, 2013, 04:11:14 PM
that said - if the reason Florida residents want full serve is because they're elderly and mobility-impaired: is there a Florida law which says that station attendants must provide full service, at self-serve price, to anyone with a disabled plate/placard?  CA has a law like that.

Most states have laws like that, IIRC.  Illinois does.

Actually its the younger generation that want someone to pump gas.   Many girls who are in their 20s wish full serve would be the norm here.    I agree NJ should have self serve, but then again you are talking to one of the states that never went 65 mph either until years later.  In fact they and CT were the two last states that allowed a higher limit than 55 in this great nation of ours.

Quote from: roadman65 on September 18, 2013, 04:38:24 PM
I agree NJ should have self serve, but then again you are talking to one of the states that never went 65 mph either until years later.  In fact they and CT were the two last states that allowed a higher limit than 55 in this great nation of ours.

Don't forget HI, the very last state (in 2002) to abandon the 55mph maximum limit, and unlike NJ and CT, still doesn't have anything posted for more than 60.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 18, 2013, 04:11:14 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on September 18, 2013, 04:00:30 PM
I got news for you, most people here in Florida would love to have full serve again! 

I feel like that would be a need that certain businesses would be happy to supply, for 20c/gal or thereabouts.

even in "other 48" states, I occasionally bump into a full-serve station - or, at least, a station which offers the possibility of full-serve, along with self-serve.

that said - if the reason Florida residents want full serve is because they're elderly and mobility-impaired: is there a Florida law which says that station attendants must provide full service, at self-serve price, to anyone with a disabled plate/placard?  CA has a law like that.

Virginia has that law but allows the gas station an exception if only one employee is on duty–in that situation, the employee may refuse to assist the handicapped motorist because it would mean leaving the place where the cash register is. Of course, the gas station I use most often only ever has one employee on duty (in a small booth).

I only know one person who uses full-serve gas, the mother of a college friend of mine from McKenney, Virginia. She'll actually drive 20 miles out of her way if necessary because she flat-out refuses to pump her own gas. I have to say I don't understand that. I try to avoid stopping for gas in New Jersey or at the few stations I've seen in Pennsylvania that don't allow self-serve, primarily because I don't like the way the attendants drop the gas cap against the side of the car and the like, but I won't drive out of my way to try to avoid it because that's just a waste of gas and money. To me that's like the guy I know who routinely drives 20 miles from Falls Church, Virginia, out to Manassas to buy gas because he contends it's cheaper there. Big deal. He'll burn over a gallon roundtrip. If it's 10¢ a gallon cheaper, when gas is over $3 a gallon he'd have to buy over 30 gallons of gas to make up for the gallon he wastes driving out there and back (not to mention the wasted time sitting in traffic).

The flip side of that is that my parents talk about when they lived in Charlottesville back before I was born (my father was a UVA law student at the time and my mother taught public school), their friends all ridiculed them for buying self-serve gas, to which my father retorted that they were saving a substantial amount per fillup by doing so. Funny how times change.

If I were to visit Oregon or New Jersey I would find a large gas station and park away from the store and pump the gas myself.  I don't want some pump jockey scratching up my car, spilling gas all over it, and having access to my credit card.

Quote from: roadman65 on September 18, 2013, 04:00:30 PM
The whole problem is that the Unions are strong in New Jersey, which is why there are not too many Wal Mart Supercenters in the Garden State.   49 other states have full service WalMarts with supermarkets, but NJ does not.   They are so strong they even scare WalMart the one store that many have been fighting for years to not let build in their neighborhood, but have lost dramatically! 

I'm not sure where you get your info, but the managers, employees, and customers of the 2 Super Walmarts in Deptford, NJ, the Super Walmart in Turnersville, NJ, the Super Walmart in Vineland, NJ, the Super Walmart in Neptune, NJ, among others, will disagree with you.

And the union issue surely doesn't apply to gas stations; very few of which have employees in a union.

I definitely wouldn't allow someone else to pump my gas. First, you can't "lock" modern gas pumps in my old car's gas tank, you have to be holding the nozzle at an angle while continuously holding a handle. Second, it will not cut off when full, so you have to listen very carefully for the sound to change. A station attendant would probably not do either of these. So I'd have to waste time it explaining it and gas would probably be dribbled all over my car.

Third, I do NOT like having my credit card in someone else's hands or out of view, I pay restaurant checks in cash as much as possible for this reason (unless it's pay at the register). And thinking about it now, my card is probably a lot safer in the hands of a waiter/waitress than it is in the hands of some teenage/junkie professional gas pumper.

Pretty much since I've been driving, I've always frequented the same station whenever I've needed gas (that particular station has changed over the years as I've moved, but I always pick one I like and stick with it). Thus, the employees get to know me and don't bother me if I decide to pump it myself (if nothing else, I have PA plates now so I figure if anyone ever gives me shit -- which I have gotten before from some attendants -- I play dumb and say "Oh, I'm from a state that allows self-service. Sorry."). I don't actively discourage the attendant if he or she comes over to pump, but if they're busy, I just do it myself. The QuickChek I usually fill up at often has Trenton and Lawrence cops pulling in, and I've never gotten even a glance while standing at the pump. I'd imagine if I managed to somehow burn the station down that maybe there'd be a problem, but I think you'd need to be pretty damn stupid (talented?) to manage that with the number of safety systems these days.

Quote from: DSS5 on September 19, 2013, 06:46:21 AM
I definitely wouldn't allow someone else to pump my gas.

Good luck trying that in either NJ or OR.  Despite what's been stated on this thread; you're attempting to do such could either involve your getting fined (if not arrested) and/or refusal of service.  If your car's on fumes (left of E) and the latter happens; limping to a station in neighboring state may not be an option.

While I do agree that the law in NJ (& OR) is stupid and a time-consuming process; one may wind up wasting even more time attempting to beat or flout the system, as it were.

Quote from: DSS5 on September 19, 2013, 06:46:21 AMFirst, you can't "lock" modern gas pumps in my old car's gas tank, you have to be holding the nozzle at an angle while continuously holding a handle.

In MA, one has to hold the nozzle while fueling anyway.  Which means that if you want to squeegie (sp?) your windshield; you can't do it yourself while refueling.

Quote from: DSS5 on September 19, 2013, 06:46:21 AMSecond, it will not cut off when full, so you have to listen very carefully for the sound to change. A station attendant would probably not do either of these. So I'd have to waste time it explaining it and gas would probably be dribbled all over my car.

In my experiences (23 years) in NJ; many of the hoses cut off before the tank is full; so spillage due to overflows aren't an issue and my experiences w/such includes fueling a 1976 Ford LTD during much of the 1990s and early 2000s so the old car argument doesn't hold water here.

Quote from: DSS5 on September 19, 2013, 06:46:21 AMThird, I do NOT like having my credit card in someone else's hands or out of view

Most if not all of the NJ stations I've gone to now have the credit card reader is located right at the pump.  My card's usually been handed right back to me within one minute. 

My biggest beef with full-service in NJ is that many (though not all) of the attendants barely speak a word of English.  I know that it's not politically correct to say this but, but if one is to be employed in a job that involves some interaction with the public (customer); you better learn to speak the language.  I realize that this alone is another subject for another thread.

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 19, 2013, 08:54:40 AM
My biggest beef with full-service in NJ is that many (though not all) of the attendants barely speak a word of English.  I know that it's not politically correct to say this but, but if one is to be employed in a job that involves some interaction with the public (customer); you better learn to speak the language.  I realize that this alone is another subject for another thread.

If you have the opportunity, seek out stations attached to Wawa, QuickChek, grocery stores or warehouse clubs. I've found they tend to hire native-speakers. To be honest, I don't care if you speak English or not. So long as you understand "Fill 'er up, regular", but I know this is a problem for some people.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 18, 2013, 11:23:15 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on September 18, 2013, 04:00:30 PM
The whole problem is that the Unions are strong in New Jersey, which is why there are not too many Wal Mart Supercenters in the Garden State.   49 other states have full service WalMarts with supermarkets, but NJ does not.   They are so strong they even scare WalMart the one store that many have been fighting for years to not let build in their neighborhood, but have lost dramatically! 

I'm not sure where you get your info, but the managers, employees, and customers of the 2 Super Walmarts in Deptford, NJ, the Super Walmart in Turnersville, NJ, the Super Walmart in Vineland, NJ, the Super Walmart in Neptune, NJ, among others, will disagree with you.

And the union issue surely doesn't apply to gas stations; very few of which have employees in a union.

Well that may be now, but not when those of European descent (not Indians or Muslims with the turbins) pumped your gas.  Just so you know, back in the 90's when the pump card readers were first installed at pumps, I suggested to an attendant that his station should get one, boy did it erupt a FLAME with him!  He thought I was suggesting that NJ should go self serve, and was real hasty to me saying "We do not want self serve gas and our Unions are keeping that alive " and will keep fighting it to the end. 

My dad told me it when he was alive as this all went down (the changeover to self serve that is) back in the 70s where I was too young to remember.  My dad was smart and he was well knowledged in all things, and rest his soul, if all were like him the world would be a better place.  I trust his credibility and plus I lived in NJ back in the late 60s, 70s, and 80s before moving to Florida in 90, so I was able to witness most stuff as well. 

Also, with Wal Mart I did not say that there were NO supercenters, but not many.  If you look at the Wal Mart Rand McNally, you will see that the other 49 have almost all the stores as supercenters, but NJ has mostly the regular department stores in the store locater section.   With that being said, and the fact that WalMart always usually gets its way, and they are to be an everything outlet.  Add that to the fact in NJ they are everything, but groceries, it does tell you something.   Plus, New Jersey is traditionally known as to be a Union State, by the old timers.   I have had more dealings with pre baby boomers being of in my late 40s, so I hear the real deal that our society's media and news wants all of us today not to know about.

NOTE: I changed one line to read European Americans because some people think that I was making a certain kind of remark.  So now I hope I am politically correct.

Whoa, roadman65 is going all PC by pointing out that Native Americans are not Indians.

Quote from: NE2 on September 19, 2013, 09:42:11 AM
Whoa, roadman65 is going all PC by pointing out that Native Americans are not Indians.

What are you talking about?  Obviously you do not get out much at all or else you would know who owns most convenience stores these days.   

Again, as I've told others, living in Jersey, I'd rather take the lower gas prices as a trade off for someone pumping my gas. I see nothing wrong with it. Sure when I go to other states, its fun to pump gasoline, but there's nothing wrong with full-serve.

Quote from: roadman65 on September 19, 2013, 09:30:17 AMWell that may be now, but not when true Americans (not Indians or Muslims with the turbins) pumped your gas.

You mean Turbans. And only two sorts of Muslims wear Turbans - male descendants of Mohammed and Imams - it is highly unlikely that either would pump gas. You almost certainly mean Sikhs, which is a totally different thing. It's a fairly easy mistake to make, given that there aren't that many Sikhs.

Quote from: NE2 on September 19, 2013, 09:42:11 AMWhoa, roadman65 is going all PC by pointing out that Native Americans are not Indians.

LOL - I hope that's what he meant. But sadly, as I was typing this post, looks like we do have someone who thinks those of South Asian descent (and Muslims) can't be true Americans  :banghead:

Quote from: roadman65 on September 19, 2013, 09:54:38 AM

Quote from: NE2 on September 19, 2013, 09:42:11 AMWhoa, roadman65 is going all PC by pointing out that Native Americans are not Indians.

What are you talking about?  Obviously you do not get out much at all or else you would know who owns most convenience stores these days.

NE2 made a deliberate and creative charitable misreading of your post to explain away the massive and blatant racism.

Way to dig yourself deeper :rolleyes:

Quote from: Roadgeek Adam on September 19, 2013, 10:00:23 AM
Again, as I've told others, living in Jersey, I'd rather take the lower gas prices as a trade off for someone pumping my gas. I see nothing wrong with it. Sure when I go to other states, its fun to pump gasoline, but there's nothing wrong with full-serve.

I am for self serve all around, as it would make New Jersey the most cheapest in the nation if it were.  At times, New Jersey's full serve is the same price as Florida's self serve.  Then one time I seen the Garden State Parkway's service area prices lower than Florida's cheapest price, and of course we know that toll roads are higher than the local area prices in the area of the service plazas.

Quote from: Compulov on September 19, 2013, 09:18:39 AM

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 19, 2013, 08:54:40 AM
My biggest beef with full-service in NJ is that many (though not all) of the attendants barely speak a word of English.  I know that it's not politically correct to say this but, but if one is to be employed in a job that involves some interaction with the public (customer); you better learn to speak the language.  I realize that this alone is another subject for another thread.

If you have the opportunity, seek out stations attached to Wawa, QuickChek, grocery stores or warehouse clubs. I've found they tend to hire native-speakers. To be honest, I don't care if you speak English or not. So long as you understand "Fill 'er up, regular", but I know this is a problem for some people.

Most of my drives in/through NJ involve stopping at stations along either the GSP or NJTP (now mostly Sunocos); although, I have checked out a QuickCheck along US 130 north of NJ 32 in Cranbury/Dayton(?) for fueling but I only pass or encounter that station when I'm bypassing the NJTP due to construction-related traffic jam-ups.

BTW, my gripe regarding those not being able to speak the language, regardless of ethnic origin, while working in a service-customer-interaction-related position isn't just limited to gas/service stations.  Many years ago; I was practically pulling out what little hair I had left on my head because somebody at either a Burger King or KFC could not comprehend my order because their English was very limited; and no, it was not a long nor complicated order.

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 19, 2013, 08:54:40 AMMy biggest beef with full-service in NJ is that many (though not all) of the attendants barely speak a word of English.  I know that it's not politically correct to say this but, but if one is to be employed in a job that involves some interaction with the public (customer); you better learn to speak the language.  I realize that this alone is another subject for another thread.

I've had this experience too, especially near the Shore. Trying to understand someone who speaks your own second language incomprehensibly quickly becomes a nightmare. He had trouble with my accent too.

I don't see why suggesting that people who interact with the public speak the local language would be politically incorrect. It's the law where I live.

Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on September 19, 2013, 10:12:56 AMI don't see why suggesting that people who interact with the public speak the local language would be politically incorrect. It's the law where I live.

If someone even proposes such a law in the U.S. (and a few have attempted such, mostly conservatives); they're automatically branded as being insensitive, intolerant racists.

Quote from: english si on September 19, 2013, 10:06:40 AM

Quote from: roadman65 on September 19, 2013, 09:30:17 AMWell that may be now, but not when true Americans (not Indians or Muslims with the turbins) pumped your gas.

You mean Turbans. And only two sorts of Muslims wear Turbans - male descendants of Mohammed and Imams - it is highly unlikely that either would pump gas. You almost certainly mean Sikhs, which is a totally different thing. It's a fairly easy mistake to make, given that there aren't that many Sikhs.

Quote from: NE2 on September 19, 2013, 09:42:11 AMWhoa, roadman65 is going all PC by pointing out that Native Americans are not Indians.

LOL - I hope that's what he meant. But sadly, as I was typing this post, looks like we do have someone who thinks those of South Asian descent (and Muslims) can't be true Americans  :banghead:

Quote from: roadman65 on September 19, 2013, 09:54:38 AM

Quote from: NE2 on September 19, 2013, 09:42:11 AMWhoa, roadman65 is going all PC by pointing out that Native Americans are not Indians.

What are you talking about?  Obviously you do not get out much at all or else you would know who owns most convenience stores these days.

NE2 made a deliberate and creative charitable misreading of your post to explain away the massive and blatant racism.

Way to dig yourself deeper :rolleyes:

I was not being racist!  I only mentioned the fact that there was a change in status in gas stations.  I am not saying that Muslims and any other parties should not own gas stations, as I do believe in this nation.   True maybe I should have said something different as supposed to true Americans and regret it deeply.   I did not know what words to use as their was none other that I could use. 

Anyway, then you should say something to motel owners when they post something on their sign saying "American owned an operated" because I think it is obvious to that and one owner of a business in Avon Park, FL has that along US 27.   

I am proud to be a true Christian and love all my brothers and sisters no matter what race, color, sex, or creed is and always have. 

Regarding Indians, I believe there's a gas station halfway across Florida on I-75 owned by an Indian tribe, but I never stop there because it's reputed to be extraordinarily expensive due to the lack of competition.

I don't much care who owns the gas station as long as (a) the pumps work properly including the auto shut-off feature, (b) the price is not out of line with everywhere else in the area (relevant near my house–the Shell station I usually patronize is usually 10¢ to 20¢ a gallon cheaper than the other two Shell stations about a mile and a half to the west), (c) the station looks reasonably well maintained (if it doesn't, I tend to assume the pumps are not maintained correctly either), and (d) I can get assistance if the pump fails to print a receipt.

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 19, 2013, 10:11:35 AM
BTW, my gripe regarding those not being able to speak the language, regardless of ethnic origin, while working in a service-customer-interaction-related position isn't just limited to gas/service stations.  Many years ago; I was practically pulling out what little hair I had left on my head because somebody at either a Burger King or KFC could not comprehend my order because their English was very limited; and no, it was not a long nor complicated order.

Hell, for that matter, I've run into enough people who were born in the US (white and black) and have a complete lack of knowledge of basic standard English, or at least have no clue how to understand the Inland Northern Cities accent.

PHLBOS cites most of the reasons it is not a good idea to attempt self-serve in NJ and Oregon.  I haven't checked the relevant legislation in either state, but I am reasonably certain it includes sanctions for the stations that allow customers to pump their own gas, not just the customers themselves.  I have travelled in both states and have never encountered a gas station with an unattended pump.

I did some Web research and have discovered the following facts:

*  New Jersey and Oregon introduced mandatory full-serve in 1949 and 1951 respectively, the original justification in both cases being to promote public safety by ensuring that only trained gas jockeys would operate the rather primitive gas pumps then in use.  At the time full serve was the norm nationally, self-serve not being introduced until the late 1960's or early 1970's.

*  There have been multiple repeal efforts in both states.  In NJ they have failed (so far) because mandatory full-serve is popular with NJ residents.  In Oregon repeal efforts have had the backing of major oil companies, who hate mandatory full-serve too, but have failed because (1) mandatory full-serve has become entrenched as a birthright policy, like the lack of a sales tax, and (2) one of the cited justifications is minimizing groundwater contamination due to spilled gasoline.

There also seems to be a widespread perception that customers have a right to object to mandatory full-serve only if it means they pay more for gas than they would otherwise pay in other states.  In New Jersey this is clearly not the case because of the state's low gas tax.  Other objections to mandatory full-serve--credit card out of the customer's sight, gas jockey doesn't know pump won't shut off when tank is full, gas jockey doesn't know tank will trigger premature shutoff when it is not full, possibility of fuel spilled onto the car finish, customer doesn't want a gas jockey hovering over him, etc.--are written off as edge cases unworthy of regulatory consideration.

http://askville.amazon.com/Jersey-full-service-gas-stations-states/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=2527644

http://freakonomics.com/2011/07/07/the-wastefulness-of-new-jerseys-gas-pumping-restrictions/

http://defenderofthemiddleclass.com/why-new-jersey-has-full-service-gas-stations

In regard to the suggestion upthread that union strength is responsible for the persistence of mandatory full-serve in NJ, I doubt that is the case, except indirectly.  Mandatory full-serve does keep the unemployment rate somewhat lower than would otherwise be the case, and unions in general have a reason to support full-employment policies because that keeps the labor market tight in general, and thus makes their wage demands easier to support.  However, as has been pointed out, unions organize by industry or profession, and gas jockeying is precisely the kind of casual occupation that is almost impossible to unionize.  Rather, I think defense of incumbency advantage is going on, and that is something that applies just as readily to employers' associations as it does to unions.  One example of this elsewhere in the transportation field is trucking firms supporting quantity licensing for trucks, even though that restricts the volume of goods that can be sent by road, because the licensing system creates a barrier for new entrants and thus protects the profits of the operators that already have licenses.

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 19, 2013, 10:25:19 AM
Regarding Indians, I believe there's a gas station halfway across Florida on I-75 owned by an Indian tribe, but I never stop there because it's reputed to be extraordinarily expensive due to the lack of competition.

Quite the contrast from the western UP.  There, the station on the rez (Baraga, MI) owned by the Amerinds (Ojibwa in this case) tends to be the cheapest for miles around.  It can be as much as 30 cents cheaper than the stations in Houghton.  As such, a lot of MTU students drive down there for fuel and visit the casino at the same time.  ;-)

Quote from: J N Winkler on September 19, 2013, 10:30:16 AM
*  There have been multiple repeal efforts in both states.  In NJ they have failed (so far) because mandatory full-serve is popular with NJ residents.  In Oregon repeal efforts have had the backing of major oil companies, who hate mandatory full-serve too, but have failed because (1) mandatory full-serve has become entrenched as a birthright policy, like the lack of a sales tax, and (2) one of the cited justifications is minimizing groundwater contamination due to spilled gasoline.

Which is complete horseshit.  The amount of gasoline or diesel fuel spilled from a retail operation while fueling vehicles or jerrycans is very minimal and will very rarely reach the groundwater table.  It mostly volatilizes on the concrete around the dispenser islands.  The leading cause of groundwater contamination from fueling stations is leaking underground storage tanks and fuel lines leading to the dispensers, not the occasional spill from someone who over filled a fuel tank in a vehicle.  If overspills are a problem, it is from overfilling the USTs at the filling station from the fuel truck and the fuel truck operator, not the customers.

Quote from: Brandon on September 19, 2013, 10:38:37 AM

Quote from: J N Winkler on September 19, 2013, 10:30:16 AM*  There have been multiple repeal efforts in both states.  In NJ they have failed (so far) because mandatory full-serve is popular with NJ residents.  In Oregon repeal efforts have had the backing of major oil companies, who hate mandatory full-serve too, but have failed because (1) mandatory full-serve has become entrenched as a birthright policy, like the lack of a sales tax, and (2) one of the cited justifications is minimizing groundwater contamination due to spilled gasoline.

Which is complete horseshit.  The amount of gasoline or diesel fuel spilled from a retail operation while fueling vehicles or jerrycans is very minimal and will very rarely reach the groundwater table.  It mostly volatilizes on the concrete around the dispenser islands.  The leading cause of groundwater contamination from fueling stations is leaking underground storage tanks and fuel lines leading to the dispensers, not the occasional spill from someone who over filled a fuel tank in a vehicle.  If overspills are a problem, it is from overfilling the USTs at the filling station from the fuel truck and the fuel truck operator, not the customers.

You won't hear any disagreement from me on that point--the USTs are definitely the real problem.  It is really a question of optics.  As devoid of factual support as that justification is, it plays really, really well in environmentally-conscious Oregon.

Quote from: roadman65 on September 19, 2013, 09:30:17 AM

Quote from: roadman65 on September 18, 2013, 04:00:30 PM
The whole problem is that the Unions are strong in New Jersey, which is why there are not too many Wal Mart Supercenters in the Garden State.   49 other states have full service WalMarts with supermarkets, but NJ does not.   

Also, with Wal Mart I did not say that there were NO supercenters, but not many.

Actually, you made both statements.

The first Super Walmart in NJ opened in 2005, and was actually a converted regular Walmart - in Turnersville.  And unlike a small, cram-it-in-there-and-we'll-make-it-work remodel job, they did a complete addition and remodel job, increasing the store size to 202,000 sq ft. (http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/309865/walmart_opens_first_supercenter_in_new_jersey/) For me, it was also the closest Walmart to my home, which has since been bested by the 2 Deptford locations.  Some other older Walmarts have added mini-grocery areas, but lack fresh deli & produce.  Any new Walmarts that have been built in this state over the past 5+ years are of the Super Walmart variety with full grocery store offerings.

I'm not sure if Delaware has any true Super Walmarts - if they do, they are down below the C&D Canal.  Some of their stores may be labeled a Super Walmart because they have groceries, but they don't have a deli or produce section, similiar to the older NJ locations.

QuoteAdd that to the fact in NJ they are everything, but groceries, it does tell you something.   Plus, New Jersey is traditionally known as to be a Union State, by the old timers.   I have had more dealings with pre baby boomers being of in my late 40s, so I hear the real deal that our society's media and news wants all of us today not to know about.

I live in NJ, so I don't have to go on hearsay. I see it, live it, and breath it everyday. And the fact is, Walmarts with full grocery stores are alive and well in NJ.

QuoteGood luck trying that in either NJ or OR.  Despite what's been stated on this thread; you're attempting to do such could either involve your getting fined (if not arrested) and/or refusal of service.

No you won't get fined or arrested (at least in NJ...I don't know about Oregon's laws).  In fact, there's no penalty whatsoever towards the consumer if he/she pumps their own gas - it's the gas station that would be penaltized for allowing someone to pump their own gas.  The NJ laws that relate to this are 34:3A-4 - 34:3A-10.  And the fine for a first offense: $50. 

BTW, unless you can prove to me otherwise, NO ONE has ever received a fine for allowing someone to pump their own gas in NJ. 

And like what most people have stated, many times, the attendants don't really care if you pump your own gas. I had 3 people in my years of pumping my own gas in NJ say something, mostly along the lines of 'you know you shouldn't be doing that' (OK, there was one guy that was a real asshole about it at a Wawa, and his manager bought me a coffee for the inconvenience he caused!). 

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 19, 2013, 08:54:40 AMmany of the hoses cut off before the tank is full; so spillage due to overflows aren't an issue and my experiences w/such includes fueling a 1976 Ford LTD during much of the 1990s and early 2000s so the old car argument doesn't hold water here.

Like I said, you have to hold the nozzle up and at an angle to get it to pump. If you just put it in normally it will keep cutting off as if it was full. It won't cut off before it is full or ever when being held like that.

Too much to try to quote and insert in this thread, so...

RE: Walmart Supercenters. I don't think Vermont has any true Supercenters. In fact, last time I checked, there are only four Walmarts in the entire state. I've been in the one in Rutland and have seen the one in Bennington.

RE: hold-open nozzles in Massachusetts. Anytime I encounter a pump that doesn't have a latch to hold the nozzle open, I stick my gas cap in there to hold it open so I can wash my windshield without having to stand there and hold the nozzle and wait until the pump cuts off.

RE: American-owned convenience stores. I would like to be the first to welcome former Delaware Senator and current Vice President Biden to the forum.  :bigass:

RE: New Jersey's law in general. I hate it, and despite the lower prices often available vs. surrounding states, I make it a point not to buy gas in Jersey when I'm traveling through the area in protest. I don't mind someone else pumping my gas, but I don't pay extra for the privilege and I certainly don't like the practice being mandated. Jersey gas prices would probably be even cheaper if the stations didn't have to pay for pump jockey labor.

RE: Availability of full-serve in other states. I think "full-serve" is a misnomer because when I was growing up, full-serve meant you got your windshield washed, your oil checked and if you wanted, your tire pressures checked. In Kentucky we have a chain called Swifty that pumps your gas for you. It used to be the same price as self-serve; now it's usually a few cents higher.

RE: People who don't like pumping their own gas. My mother refused to pump her own gas. I don't know why. She was perfectly capable of it. She either used full-service pumps or had one of us boys pump her gas when we were with her. I obviously don't mind pumping my own gas because on long trips I try to stop as infrequently as possible, and getting gas gives me a chance to stretch my legs.

I hate that law in New Jersey, to be honest! :(

Just for the heck of it, who was the last state to phase out full-serve gasoline with attendants? :)

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 19, 2013, 11:15:54 AM

QuoteGood luck trying that in either NJ or OR.  Despite what's been stated on this thread; you're attempting to do such could either involve your getting fined (if not arrested) and/or refusal of service.

No you won't get fined or arrested (at least in NJ...I don't know about Oregon's laws).  In fact, there's no penalty whatsoever towards the consumer if he/she pumps their own gas - it's the gas station that would be penaltized for allowing someone to pump their own gas.  The NJ laws that relate to this are 34:3A-4 - 34:3A-10.  And the fine for a first offense: $50. 

BTW, unless you can prove to me otherwise, NO ONE has ever received a fine for allowing someone to pump their own gas in NJ.

Fair enough, but you might've overlooked the last portion of my earlier post...(possible) refusal of service.

I'm not saying that has happened nor know of an actual incident; but if an attendant saw a motorist filling their tank on their own (and the station may have been fined for allowing such previously, one doesn't always know), the attendant could legally stop the motorist from continuing and deny him/her of service... much like stopping or evicting an attempted shop-lifter. 

Quote from: hbelkins on September 19, 2013, 12:11:24 PMRE: hold-open nozzles in Massachusetts. Anytime I encounter a pump that doesn't have a latch to hold the nozzle open, I stick my gas cap in there to hold it open so I can wash my windshield without having to stand there and hold the nozzle and wait until the pump cuts off.

Since many gas caps are now plastic (vs. metal) such maneuver done frequently could (not saying would) damage the gas cap long term.  Additionally, many newer vehicles now have a cap-less filling system as standard equipment.

As a New Jerseyan, I like the law. Ask yourself: why would the major oil companies lobby for self-serve? It ain't because it'd make them *less* money...

Quote from: hbelkins on September 19, 2013, 12:11:24 PM
RE: hold-open nozzles in Massachusetts. Anytime I encounter a pump that doesn't have a latch to hold the nozzle open, I stick my gas cap in there to hold it open so I can wash my windshield without having to stand there and hold the nozzle and wait until the pump cuts off.

I once saw someone use a lighter to prop the nozzle open so they didn't have to hold it.

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 19, 2013, 01:08:37 PM
...I'm not saying that has happened nor know of an actual incident; but if an attendant saw a motorist filling their tank on their own (and the station may have been fined for allowing such previously, one doesn't always know), the attendant could legally stop the motorist from continuing and deny him/her of service... much like stopping or evicting an attempted shop-lifter.

Maybe...although that argument won't fly if I've already swiped my credit card to turn the pump on!  There are a few stations where the station attendant has to swipe an employee card first before the credit card (or accepting cash).

And if an attendant did cut someone off from pumping their own gas, a smart consumer would know the law, call the police (or whoever could issue a fine in this case), and now the station would STILL be on the hook, because they allowed the consumer to pump their own gas...even if they didn't intend on it happening!

There is one station I'm aware of in NJ - the Loves Truck Stop off Exit 7 of the NJ Turnpike (Exit 56 of I-295) - where the machines can accept cash as well, although I don't know if they actually use that feature with the attendants there.

Quote from: hubcity on September 19, 2013, 01:11:43 PM
As a New Jerseyan, I like the law. Ask yourself: why would the major oil companies lobby for self-serve? It ain't because it'd make them *less* money...

I'd say it may even cost the station more money to operate a full-serve station, as most of them have small booths outside for the attendant along with full-service signage and warnings.  Not very costly items, but still items nonetheless that aren't needed in other states.

I don't see the problem with manditory full-service. If I were to drive through either Oregon or New Jersey, it wouldn't bother me to have someone else pump my gas.

If full service stations were reinstated in other states, self-service would still be an option to those who deline full-service. It would create a few more jobs at least.

Quote from: NE2 on September 19, 2013, 09:42:11 AM
Whoa, roadman65 is going all PC by pointing out that Native Americans are not Indians.

Don't tell that to Oklahoma Indians.  They call themselves "Indians".  The hospital in Claremore is known as the "Indian Hospital" by everybody.  I rarely hear "Native American".

I'm also from NJ.  I usually put the  card in the pump myself and then have the attendant pump the gas.  I beleve NJ and Oregon have the cheapest gas station insurance rates in the country because they are full serve.   I know the full serve only place by my sister in NY is  the cheapest. 

To me, there are bigger concerns out there than whether or not Oregon and New Jersey offer self-serve gas service.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 20, 2013, 08:00:39 AM
To me, there are bigger concerns out there than whether or not Oregon and New Jersey offer self-serve gas service.

There are bigger concerns out there than what font road signs use. If we get stuck on that line of thinking pretty soon we won't have a forum.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2013, 01:13:40 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 20, 2013, 08:00:39 AM
To me, there are bigger concerns out there than whether or not Oregon and New Jersey offer self-serve gas service.

There are bigger concerns out there than what font road signs use. If we get stuck on that line of thinking pretty soon we won't have a forum.

NO THERE ARE NOT

Quote from: Steve on September 23, 2013, 11:24:28 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2013, 01:13:40 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 20, 2013, 08:00:39 AM
To me, there are bigger concerns out there than whether or not Oregon and New Jersey offer self-serve gas service.

There are bigger concerns out there than what font road signs use. If we get stuck on that line of thinking pretty soon we won't have a forum.

NO THERE ARE NOT

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FfY2oLyx.png&hash=3fd09b56425deae698ecfbd5047f7306a1720a78)

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 24, 2013, 01:22:01 AM

Quote from: Steve on September 23, 2013, 11:24:28 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 20, 2013, 01:13:40 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 20, 2013, 08:00:39 AM
To me, there are bigger concerns out there than whether or not Oregon and New Jersey offer self-serve gas service.

There are bigger concerns out there than what font road signs use. If we get stuck on that line of thinking pretty soon we won't have a forum.

NO THERE ARE NOT

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FfY2oLyx.png&hash=3fd09b56425deae698ecfbd5047f7306a1720a78)

The Clearview, MY EYES, HOW THEY BURN!  :ded:

:biggrin:

Quote from: roadman65 on September 18, 2013, 04:00:30 PM
I got news for you, most people here in Florida would love to have full serve again! 

[citation needed]

In all my years living in Florida, I've never, not once, heard anyone say they wanted full serve gas.

Quote from: roadman65 on September 19, 2013, 10:21:49 AM
I am proud to be a true Christian and love all my brothers and sisters no matter what race, color, sex, or creed is and always have.

Jesus says please stop yelling. your posts make you sound like you're foaming at the mouth as you type.

Let the voters of the state decide if they want self serv or not, that's how it should be.

If 51% want it, then most voters in the state want it.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 24, 2013, 12:48:47 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on September 19, 2013, 10:21:49 AM
I am proud to be a true Christian and love all my brothers and sisters no matter what race, color, sex, or creed is and always have.

...please stop yelling. your posts make you sound like you're foaming at the mouth as you type.

Unless roadman65 was intentionally typing in all CAPS; how do you know that he's yelling?

Quote from: SteveG1988 on September 24, 2013, 03:50:33 PM
Let the voters of the state decide if they want self serv or not, that's how it should be.

If 51% want it, then most voters in the state want it.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 24, 2013, 03:56:25 PMhow do you know that he's yelling?

ending an unusual amount of his sentences with an exclamation point!

Quote

Quote
Let the voters of the state decide if they want self serv or not, that's how it should be.

If 51% want it, then most voters in the state want it.

Sounds reasonable to me.

I think each business should be allowed to make that decision on their own, without a state mandate forcing one or the other.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 24, 2013, 04:00:43 PM

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 24, 2013, 03:56:25 PMhow do you know that he's yelling?

ending an unusual amount of his sentences with an exclamation point!

Quote

Quote
Let the voters of the state decide if they want self serv or not, that's how it should be.

If 51% want it, then most voters in the state want it.

Sounds reasonable to me.

I think each business should be allowed to make that decision on their own, without a state mandate forcing one or the other.

It is currently a law, the repeal or not should come down to the people of New Jersey deciding as a whole

Quote from: SteveG1988 on September 24, 2013, 05:12:52 PM
It is currently a law, the repeal or not should come down to the people of New Jersey deciding as a whole

I disagree - it should be wholesale repealed, and the people of New Jersey can vote with their wheels which gas stations to patronize.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 24, 2013, 05:23:47 PM

Quote from: SteveG1988 on September 24, 2013, 05:12:52 PM
It is currently a law, the repeal or not should come down to the people of New Jersey deciding as a whole

I disagree - it should be wholesale repealed, and the people of New Jersey can vote with their wheels which gas stations to patronize.

If it's a State Law in the books (NJ's & OR's ban on self-service is), then repealing such would have to be done either through the legislative process or a referendum ballot process.  Stations can't just randomly break a law, even a stupid one, long-term without getting caught.

Your vote with their wheels theory only works along the state's borders provided that the gas station which offers self-service in that neighboring state has a competitive price and is not separated by a toll facility.

Post-referendum (if placed on the ballot and wins a vote); stations will then still have the option of only being full-serve (though most won't likely remain that way) and motorists will then have the full freedom to vote with their wheels without actually leaving the state to do so.

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 24, 2013, 05:45:59 PMdone either through the legislative process

exactly.

public referenda should not be used to force a selection between two valid non-opposing options.  if 51% of New Jersey wants A, and 49% wants B, and A and B can coexist, then B should not be made illegal.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 24, 2013, 05:53:13 PMpublic referenda should not be used to force a selection between two valid non-opposing options.  if 51% of New Jersey wants A, and 49% wants B, and A and B can coexist, then B should not be made illegal.

In many instances, it tends to be quicker and less time-consuming to repeal an unpopular law via public referendum (when allowed) rather than going through the legislative process.

IMHO, politicians have more pressing issues to debate/vote on other than repealing a ban on self-service. 

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 24, 2013, 06:03:22 PM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 24, 2013, 05:53:13 PMpublic referenda should not be used to force a selection between two valid non-opposing options.  if 51% of New Jersey wants A, and 49% wants B, and A and B can coexist, then B should not be made illegal.

In many instances, it tends to be quicker and less time-consuming to repeal an unpopular law via public referendum (when allowed) rather than going through the legislative process.

IMHO, politicians have more pressing issues to debate/vote on other than repealing a ban on self-service.

as long as the referendum is in favor of more freedom.

I've had a very, very negative view of referenda ever since California's awful Proposition 8.

Quote from: Brandon on September 24, 2013, 06:23:16 AM
The Clearview, MY EYES, HOW THEY BURN!  :ded:

:biggrin:

I find it quite the opposite. Clearview is a nice font for typesetting flyers and such, it just looks bad on most highway signs.

I don't mind full serve. With NJ stations mostly having "cash discount" split pricing, I'd rather pay the guy at the pump the exact amount if I fill the tank. Going inside the store to pay cash in self serve states is the pits. Luckily the "cash discount" thing isn't all that common outside of NJ. Never having to leave the car on a cold and/or rainy day is another plus. I never had a problem with someone scratching my car either.

As for exceptions to the rule, you are allowed to pump your own diesel if you have one since the law only covers dispensing of gasoline. Also I have pumped gas at my job's fleet pumps so I'm guessing they are excluded as well. I know some guy isn't going to pop out of the shadows and pump gas for me at the maintenance yard!

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 24, 2013, 06:07:27 PM
I've had a very, very negative view of referenda ever since California's awful Proposition 8.

I can see your point look at all the super expensive bond issues for clean whales and saving the air, er i mean clean air nad saving the whal, or whatever. billions of dollars in bonds that have to be paid back with interest all voted by majority rule. The referendum process isn't without it's flaws. However i did vote for prop 8 but also realize if that same vote were held today it would have gone down in flames. by a landslide. The times they have a-changed.

When it comes to roads however it seems hard to get people to vote for a referendum to improve roads. On the other hand repealing full-service laws may also be difficult especially due to union interests.

FWIW I have always hated the political ad campaigns in California where they trot out the children and the elderly like pawns to jerk at the heartstrings of the people. It's maddening. Besides the ads are so blatantly misleading and bloated with double talk on both sides that no one  can make sense of it. I am sure NY and NJ are equally bad when it comes to the political seasons. 

Quote from: Indyroads on September 24, 2013, 08:08:41 PMclean whales and saving the air

a clever way of making fun of California's perceived moonbatism.

Quoteer i mean clean air nad saving the whal

a ... not so clever of doing the same thing? 

postmodern comedy is weird.

QuoteFWIW I have always hated the political ad campaigns in California where they trot out the children and the elderly like pawns to jerk at the heartstrings of the people. It's maddening. Besides the ads are so blatantly misleading and bloated with double talk on both sides that no one  can make sense of it. I am sure NY and NJ are equally bad when it comes to the political seasons.

it's every state in which advertising executives operate.  I hate them too, as they exhort people to vote with their base instincts as opposed to their brains.  the aforementioned prop 8's co-opting of those stupid family stickers that people put on the back of their SUVs... somehow, even more ludicrous than the stickers to begin with.

I'll make this point again.

Independent retailers are competitive.

Major retailers want costs slashed.

Major retailers get the edge if full-serve goes away. And after they get the edge, independent retailers go away, and major retailers get to set the prices however they'd like.

I have no problem preserving full-serve.

Quote from: hubcity on September 24, 2013, 09:12:07 PM

Major retailers get the edge if full-serve goes away.

why is that?

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 24, 2013, 06:03:22 PM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 24, 2013, 05:53:13 PMpublic referenda should not be used to force a selection between two valid non-opposing options.  if 51% of New Jersey wants A, and 49% wants B, and A and B can coexist, then B should not be made illegal.

In many instances, it tends to be quicker and less time-consuming to repeal an unpopular law via public referendum (when allowed) rather than going through the legislative process.

IMHO, politicians have more pressing issues to debate/vote on other than repealing a ban on self-service. 

Basically, Yes.  When Christie first became governor, he mentioned considering self-serve.  Many people in the state yelled loudly against that idea, because, I guess, once you have something that many consider one of the few nicities in a state with high taxes, high rates, etc, people feel like they are getting something for their money.  And people will bring up any and every excuse why we need full-serve, although the way I see it, any and all of those excuses can be contridicted by the fact that 48 other states have self-serve, and those people get along just fine.

I'm quite sure as well that many of those people that yell and scream that we absolutely must have self-serve eventually move out of the state, and unless they are moving to Oregon, they manage quite well pumping their own gas wherever they wind up.

Since there's no mass group of people protesting on the state house steps demanding self-serve gas, it's an issue that most politicians just aren't going to waste their time dealing with.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 24, 2013, 09:17:07 PM

Quote from: hubcity on September 24, 2013, 09:12:07 PM

Major retailers get the edge if full-serve goes away.

why is that?

If gas was permitted to be a loss-leader, then I can absolutely see this being true.  In NJ, gas must be sold at a profit. (Not sure how many other states have this law.  In NJ, I know gas and alcohol can't be sold for less than cost, but most other products can be sold as loss-leaders).

Technically, there's very few independents anymore - the gas stations are almost all branded.  But I think hubcity is mostly referring to those that have convenience stores for a customer to shop at during/before/after pumping their gas.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 25, 2013, 08:52:22 AM
Technically, there's very few independents anymore - the gas stations are almost all branded.  But I think hubcity is mostly referring to those that have convenience stores for a customer to shop at during/before/after pumping their gas.

Actually, there are three types of filling stations:

1. Corporate owned.  These tend to be owned by the actual brand on the sign.  Common ones include Speedway and most new BP locations.

2. Jobbers.  Jobbers are middlemen in the petroleum business.  They own the fuel and the location but lease the actual station to someone else.

3. Independents.  Independents tend to own their own filling station(s) and purchase fuel from the refiner.  Independents can be a small mom-and-pop operation, or a large corporation like Circle K.  Some "brands" that tend to be almost all independents or jobbers include Marathon and most other so-called big brands (Shell, Mobil, etc).

Now for the dirty secret of fuel.  The fuel you purchase in an area comes from a refiner in that area, be it Citgo, BP, or ExxonMobil around Chicagoland.  If you buy fuel at any filling station in the Chicago area, it comes from one of these three refineries, even if it is branded "Shell", "Phillips 66", or "Thorntons".  Any additives to the fuel are added later, at the actual filling station to make it "different".  That BP fuel may not have come from the BP refinery in Whiting, Indiana.  It may have come from the Citgo refinery in Romeoville, Illinois, and just have BP's additives added at the filling station.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 25, 2013, 08:52:22 AM
When Christie first became governor, he mentioned considering self-serve.  Many people in the state yelled loudly against that idea...

Several times, I've seen bumper stickers and T-shirts: "Jersey Girls don't pump their own gas". In a public speaking class during my undergrad at Penn State, a classmate (from NJ) did a presentation on how great his home state was–and statewide full-serve was one of his bragging points. After 50 years, is full-serve perhaps a vital part of NJ state identity, and Jerseyans will cling to it–even perhaps misguidedly–just because they place full-serve right up there with pork roll and "which exit" as part of what makes them who they are?

I don't know if anyone's mentioned it yet, but if the fuel retailers are against full-serve, I would think it's not as much because of the cost associated with keeping pump jockeys on staff but rather because a motorist who stays seated behind the wheel while refueling is less likely to go into the convenience store and buy overpriced stuff–which is where all the profit is now made, I understand.

As to the whole issue of full-serve gasoline in general–I'm against. I've had enough icy interchanges with mouth breathers behind checkouts who can't even be bothered to say "hello" that I gladly welcome self checkouts at stores, kiosk ordering at fast food restaurants, pay-at-pump gas, etc. Human interaction has been priced out of the bottom tier of customer service to the point that the flunkies that are being hired have absolutely no interpersonal skills. If I want a human interaction, I'll save it for a nice evening where I'm paying real money at a legitimate restaurant, checking into a nice hotel–or better yet, spending quality time with friends and family that I actually care about.

And for an example of lousy full-serve (from Duel)... http://bit.ly/1fD5I2K (http://bit.ly/1fD5I2K)
Just the first 30 seconds or so. Yeah...protecting the groundwater and all of that...

Quote from: briantroutman on September 25, 2013, 11:57:56 AMmouth breathers

I wonder how they manage to hold jobs.  the economy ain't all that good.  if you're gonna be in a customer-facing position, at least pretend to be enthusiastic.  because hey, you're not unemployed.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 25, 2013, 08:52:22 AM
If gas was permitted to be a loss-leader, then I can absolutely see this being true.  In NJ, gas must be sold at a profit. (Not sure how many other states have this law.  In NJ, I know gas and alcohol can't be sold for less than cost, but most other products can be sold as loss-leaders).

I'm not sure if I agree.  if gas is a loss-leader, or a zero-profit-leader, as the case may be, then you want people going into your store to buy profitable items.  having them sit in the car because they don't need to pump gas is not the way to encourage them to take the extra 25 steps to the store front.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 25, 2013, 12:40:04 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 25, 2013, 08:52:22 AM
If gas was permitted to be a loss-leader, then I can absolutely see this being true.  In NJ, gas must be sold at a profit. (Not sure how many other states have this law.  In NJ, I know gas and alcohol can't be sold for less than cost, but most other products can be sold as loss-leaders).

I'm not sure if I agree.  if gas is a loss-leader, or a zero-profit-leader, as the case may be, then you want people going into your store to buy profitable items.  having them sit in the car because they don't need to pump gas is not the way to encourage them to take the extra 25 steps to the store front.

Remember, I was responding to the comment "Major retailers get the edge if full-serve goes away". So they would be exiting their cars and pumping gas.

you're right, I've lost track of the argument.  and I'm alas too lazy to find it  :sombrero:

Paying at the pump with a credit or debit card also discourages people from going in and buying overpriced candy bars and bags of salty snacks, even if you have to get out of your car to pump your own gas.

Since I usually keep cold drinks with me when I travel, and I tend not to snack, the only reason I go in a gas station if I stop to fuel up is if I need to relieve myself -- unless it's Sheetz, when I usually get a MTO meal.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 25, 2013, 04:04:38 PM
Paying at the pump with a credit or debit card also discourages people from going in and buying overpriced candy bars and bags of salty snacks, even if you have to get out of your car to pump your own gas.

Since I usually keep cold drinks with me when I travel, and I tend not to snack, the only reason I go in a gas station if I stop to fuel up is if I need to relieve myself -- unless it's Sheetz, when I usually get a MTO meal.

Actually convenience stores do extremely well in non gasoline sales in every place I have been with self service. I have to wait in line nearly every time I go in.

Self serve may actually be good for business. besides most galsoline stations make their real money onthe concessions anyway not on the gasoline.

Whats interesting is that some of the lowest priced gas stations are the ones without convenience stores. Quite a few have mechanics garages in their place. NJ tends to have more "non-branded" stations than most states too. The big chains (Exxon, Shell, etc) are, on average, usually more expensive in a given area.

The only economies of c-stores that full serve changes are the crappy/run down ones. If a station has a well run c-store (ex: Wawa), its busy. With cash payment at the pump becoming more common in self serve states, even that excuse will become moot.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 25, 2013, 12:38:43 PM

Quote from: briantroutman on September 25, 2013, 11:57:56 AMmouth breathers

I wonder how they manage to hold jobs.  the economy ain't all that good.  if you're gonna be in a customer-facing position, at least pretend to be enthusiastic.  because hey, you're not unemployed.

Partially because retailers used to hire 16-year-olds who were enthusiastic to make minimum wage; replacing them with 40-year-olds at the same rate doesn't usually raise their enthusiasm bar.

The employer gets someone who might be able to make decisions, and it's economically fair, but the consumer potentially gets someone who doesn't give a rat's behind either way.

I think the most loathsome "bring customers near the merchandise" maneuver is forcing someone to walk up to the register, pass all the impulse items, and ask for the bathroom key.

I have walked out before even pumping gas if that shit is pulled on me.  congratulations, you just lost a paying customer.

Quote from: formulanone on September 25, 2013, 04:51:01 PM
Partially because retailers used to hire 16-year-olds who were enthusiastic to make minimum wage; replacing them with 40-year-olds at the same rate doesn't usually raise their enthusiasm bar.

you're saying that there is no one enthusiastic available?

are 16 year olds not looking for work these days?

Well, there are few exciting jobs for teenagers to start their careers...although, they're probably more likely to steal from their employers (http://books.google.com/books?id=0MHX31L-H94C&pg=PA1982&lpg=PA1982&dq=employee+shrinkage+by+age+group&source=bl&ots=TdcNoQdAQ8&sig=ogp_viJml7BS774616vawAKjmyM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=i2dDUqbtG4nGiwKvnoGoCA&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAg#v=snippet&q=age%20group&f=false). Still, 1.50% a year annually is barely a minor economic shift, at most.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 25, 2013, 12:38:43 PM

Quote from: briantroutman on September 25, 2013, 11:57:56 AMmouth breathers

I wonder how they manage to hold jobs.  the economy ain't all that good.  if you're gonna be in a customer-facing position, at least pretend to be enthusiastic.  because hey, you're not unemployed.

Capitalism works both ways. If you have excellent interpersonal skills, you are a more valuable asset to an potential employer, and can probably find a job for more than minimum wage doing something more intellectually stimulating than running a register. (Not to mention having excellent interpersonal skills helps immensely when landing a job.) Those hiring for minimum-wage jobs are scraping the bottom of the barrel because the cream of the crop is rising above their level.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 25, 2013, 05:01:00 PM
you're saying that there is no one enthusiastic available?

are 16 year olds not looking for work these days?

Most convenience stores will not hire anyone under the age of 18 or 21 because they now sell alcohol, cigarettes, etc. and it is a pretty bad idea to put someone in charge of selling goods they are not legally allowed to purchase themselves.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 25, 2013, 07:19:38 PM
Most convenience stores will not hire anyone under the age of 18 or 21 because they now sell alcohol, cigarettes, etc. and it is a pretty bad idea to put someone in charge of selling goods they are not legally allowed to purchase themselves.

Kentucky requires those selling alcohol to be 21. If someone under 21's running a register at Walmart and a customer comes through with beer, they have to get someone over 21 to come ring up the order.

another perfectly valid reason to lower the drinking age to 16.

you may as well get the revenue, instead of having people steal it.

There's another little known law related to gas stations I discovered while in NJ this past weekend.  I happened to run into a BJ's warehouse club with a gas station (there are few warehouse clubs in NJ with gas and I surmised it was because of the full service requirement).

Short story is I waved my credit card and BJ's membership card to the attendant and he told me he only needed the credit card. He proceeded to scan a card on a lanyard instead of the member's card.  That is when I noticed the price signs did not say "Member Price".

After doing some digging online, it turns out restricting gas purchases to members is against NJ law, so even non-members can get the much lower warehouse club prices.  That is probably another reason why BJ's only has 2-3 gas stations in NJ (I think the same is true with Costco).

The last time I bought gas there, self-service was illegal in the Town of Huntington too. But guess what; I pumped my own gas there once anyhow. Nobody raised a stink over it, nobody called the cops on me or the owner of the station or anything like that. The guy was kind of surprised that I did it and came in to pay for it, but it wasn't such a big deal to either of us.

I kind of see it more or less like Roadgeek Adam; It won't kill me if I don't pump my own gas, and it won't kill me if I do. I tend to look at it like some of the items on cars that were mere luxuries 40+ years ago.

:-/

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 25, 2013, 05:00:03 PM
I think the most loathsome "bring customers near the merchandise" maneuver is forcing someone to walk up to the register, pass all the impulse items, and ask for the bathroom key.

I think the logic behind such a policy is mostly to keep shady characters from using the bathroom to have sex, do drugs, and/or something else that's bad PR to have happening there. Note how in big cities needing a key is expected, while in rural areas it's rare unless the station is right off the interstate.

This correlates directly with other varying policies, like whether a fast food joint will have the soda machine and condiments behind the counter or out in the dining room for self service. More homeless people looking to eat ketchup and barbecue sauce = they keep it behind the counter and won't give you any unless you buy food. Fast food joints in such areas often also require a key to the bathroom (or for the attendant behind the counter to buzz you in) in order to prevent shady activities and also to enforce "bathroom is for paying customers only", although the practice is less common than with gas stations.

---

Anyways, on the original subject... I refuse to buy gas at any full serve station on principle, which by default means I do not buy gas in New Jersey. And I simply plan to avoid doing so. If I do not have enough gas to make it through New Jersey, I will stop and get gas before entering it. If I'm going down near Cape May, which is pushing it for a round trip from NYC on one tank, I will make a detour to stop in Pennsylvania on the way down or the way back, and use that as an excuse to do some roadgeeking.

Oregon's bigger size makes such avoidance trickier. I have never been there, but I could totally see myself driving through Idaho to get from California to Washington just to avoid having to buy gas in Oregon.

How far can you get on a tank?  I-5 in Oregon is only 310 miles.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 25, 2013, 08:16:25 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 25, 2013, 07:19:38 PM
Most convenience stores will not hire anyone under the age of 18 or 21 because they now sell alcohol, cigarettes, etc. and it is a pretty bad idea to put someone in charge of selling goods they are not legally allowed to purchase themselves.

Kentucky requires those selling alcohol to be 21. If someone under 21's running a register at Walmart and a customer comes through with beer, they have to get someone over 21 to come ring up the order.

However, not all states are that way.  Illinois is like Kentucky in that way, but Michigan is not.  In Michigan, a person under the age can sell alcohol, but cannot buy or consume alcohol.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 25, 2013, 07:19:38 PM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 25, 2013, 12:38:43 PM

Quote from: briantroutman on September 25, 2013, 11:57:56 AMmouth breathers

I wonder how they manage to hold jobs....

Capitalism works both ways. If you have excellent interpersonal skills, you are a more valuable asset to an potential employer, and can probably find a job for more than minimum wage doing something more intellectually stimulating than running a register.

Which gets back to my original point–if labor is expensive enough that the only people who staff the convenience stores, fast food restaurants, etc., are the cheapest, otherwise unemployable flunkies, I'd much rather use a self-service kiosk, self-checkout, etc.

For the most part, kiosks aren't going to give have body odor problems, have poor language skills, or press the Double Meat button when you very clearly said "veggie burger".

The world has changed a great deal–for better and for worse–as labor has gotten progressively more expensive (even adjusted for inflation). 50+ years ago, it was economic for mainstream middle-class families to mend clothes, cook their own meals...and even work as a lowly clerk in a store or behind the counter at a diner. But as wages have increased, it's not worth the average, decently clean and educated person's time to do such things.

In before Costco and decent wages.

Quote from: MASTERNC on September 25, 2013, 08:51:22 PM
After doing some digging online, it turns out restricting gas purchases to members is against NJ law, so even non-members can get the much lower warehouse club prices.

This is probably one of the better laws in NJ pertaining to gas, and it had been relatively unknown.  At Sams Club, they don't even need to swipe a card.  Both the Sams Club & BJ's in Deptford have gas, and they generally are about 5c or so cheaper than other stations.  This particular Sams Club is newer and has 5 dual sided pumps; but most of the time they only use 3 of them (a situation that never arises in other states unless the pump is not working).  The BJ's added the fueling pumps well after their store opened (probably a good 10-15 years later), after Sams added theirs.  It's quite common to find lines at both stations, indicating that word is getting around that anyone can purchase gas at the stations.

Both stations are credit only, no cash. 

Quote from: Brandon on September 25, 2013, 10:16:36 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on September 25, 2013, 08:16:25 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 25, 2013, 07:19:38 PM
Most convenience stores will not hire anyone under the age of 18 or 21 because they now sell alcohol, cigarettes, etc. and it is a pretty bad idea to put someone in charge of selling goods they are not legally allowed to purchase themselves.

Kentucky requires those selling alcohol to be 21...

However, not all states are that way.  Illinois is like Kentucky in that way, but Michigan is not.  In Michigan, a person under the age can sell alcohol, but cannot buy or consume alcohol.

NJ allows anyone to sell cigs.  You must be 19 to buy them, although there is no age limit to smoke them (which is true in most states). With alcohol, while it's obviously 21 to purchase and consume at a retail store/restaurant/bar, an 18 year old can own a liquor license and purchase alcohol to resell! Also, 18 year olds can work, bartend & serve at a restaurant/bar.  16 to be a busboy.  And Lottery...18 to purchase, any age can win (in other words, a 6 year old could technically be given a ticket as a gift and collect the winnings outright, rather it being put into a trust).

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 25, 2013, 05:00:03 PM
I think the most loathsome "bring customers near the merchandise" maneuver is forcing someone to walk up to the register, pass all the impulse items, and ask for the bathroom key.

I have walked out before even pumping gas if that shit is pulled on me.  congratulations, you just lost a paying customer.

What I hate is the (rare in my experience, but still intensely annoying) situation where a gas station has a convenience store but has no restrooms open to the public. I distinctly remember at least one Boy Scout ski trip to Seven Springs in the late 1980s where a gas station operator in Somerset, PA, was adamant that the restroom was for employees only. A couple of us whose bladders were about to explode just might have gone around and whizzed on the side of the building out of view of the street.....

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 26, 2013, 09:06:54 AM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 25, 2013, 05:00:03 PM
I think the most loathsome "bring customers near the merchandise" maneuver is forcing someone to walk up to the register, pass all the impulse items, and ask for the bathroom key.

I have walked out before even pumping gas if that shit is pulled on me.  congratulations, you just lost a paying customer.

What I hate is the (rare in my experience, but still intensely annoying) situation where a gas station has a convenience store but has no restrooms open to the public. I distinctly remember at least one Boy Scout ski trip to Seven Springs in the late 1980s where a gas station operator in Somerset, PA, was adamant that the restroom was for employees only. A couple of us whose bladders were about to explode just might have gone around and whizzed on the side of the building out of view of the street.....

The Customer is always right is no longer a valid phrase anymore.   Apparently to most business owners think that customers need us more than we need them, especially with gas, because we need gas to go to do almost anything!   However, I have found that phrase to only to be used exclusively by management to employees to follow in any business even though they themselves do not practice it. 

Its about upkeep as a bathroom takes a lot to maintain.  Ask yourself, what room in the house is the hardest to keep clean?  There is no law stating that all businesses have to have them and even at one time the Borough of Seaside Park, NJ once charged 75 cents to use the restroom on the Boardwalk.  I do not know if that is legal anymore or not, but was the norm for beachgoers in swimsuits that had no wallets or purses on them.

Quote from: roadman65 on September 26, 2013, 10:32:01 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 26, 2013, 09:06:54 AM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 25, 2013, 05:00:03 PM
I think the most loathsome "bring customers near the merchandise" maneuver is forcing someone to walk up to the register, pass all the impulse items, and ask for the bathroom key.

I have walked out before even pumping gas if that shit is pulled on me.  congratulations, you just lost a paying customer.

What I hate is the (rare in my experience, but still intensely annoying) situation where a gas station has a convenience store but has no restrooms open to the public. I distinctly remember at least one Boy Scout ski trip to Seven Springs in the late 1980s where a gas station operator in Somerset, PA, was adamant that the restroom was for employees only. A couple of us whose bladders were about to explode just might have gone around and whizzed on the side of the building out of view of the street.....

The Customer is always right is no longer a valid phrase anymore.   Apparently to most business owners think that customers need us more than we need them, especially with gas, because we need gas to go to do almost anything!   However, I have found that phrase to only to be used exclusively by management to employees to follow in any business even though they themselves do not practice it. 

Its about upkeep as a bathroom takes a lot to maintain.  Ask yourself, what room in the house is the hardest to keep clean?  There is no law stating that all businesses have to have them and even at one time the Borough of Seaside Park, NJ once charged 75 cents to use the restroom on the Boardwalk.  I do not know if that is legal anymore or not, but was the norm for beachgoers in swimsuits that had no wallets or purses on them.

It depends on the state.  Some states actually require all businesses to have a restroom, even if it is just for employees only.  Illinois Plumbing Code (http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700890sections.html) Section 890.170 (http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/077008900A01700R.html):

QuoteEach building which is intended for human habitation or occupancy shall have a connection to a public water system, a semi-private water system, or a private water supply constructed in accordance with the requirements of the Illinois Water Well Construction Code (77 Ill. Adm. Code 920) or the Surface Source Water Treatment Code ( 77 Ill. Adm. Code 930), and a connection to a public sewer system or private sewage disposal system constructed to the requirements of the Illinois Private Sewage Disposal Code (77 Ill. Adm. Code 905).  All installations shall also be in accordance with any additional applicable State and local laws, ordinances, rules and regulations and local codes.

This is interpreted as all permanent buildings occupied by humans, not just residences as below:

Section 890.810 (http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/077008900F08100R.html):

Quoteb)         Required Restroom Facilities and Drinking Fountains
1)         Employee Restrooms and Drinking Fountains
A)        Restroom facilities and drinking fountains shall be provided for all employees within each place of employment.

Quote2)         Public Restrooms and Drinking Fountains
A)        General Requirements.
i)          Buildings with 5,000 square feet of gross public area or with occupancies of 100 or more persons shall provide public restrooms and drinking fountains as shown in Appendix A: Table B.  Buildings other than those exceptions in subsection (b)(2)(B) of this Section, with less than 5,000 square feet of gross public area, or with occupancies of fewer than 100 persons, need not provide public restrooms and drinking fountains.

Quoteii)         All businesses selling motor vehicle fuel to the public (regardless of their gross area) shall provide at least one public restroom for male use and one public restroom for female use.

So when Mr. Nogottabathroom tells you he does not have one for public use at a gas station, he's lying and breaking the law in Illinois.

I would think that the ADA would have changed things and require a public restroom in all businesses.  Then again we are supposed to be having healthcare made easy for everyone to get real soon, yet the law states that we the consumer are the ones that have to go out of our way to find it.  So it is obvious that laws always have loop holes in them, or there is something else hidden in them that is the real intent for the law instead of what we would believe the law is.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 25, 2013, 07:19:38 PM
Most convenience stores will not hire anyone under the age of 18 or 21 because they now sell alcohol, cigarettes, etc. and it is a pretty bad idea to put someone in charge of selling goods they are not legally allowed to purchase themselves.

The store I work at won't hire anybody under 21 because of beer sales.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 25, 2013, 08:42:30 PM
another perfectly valid reason to lower the drinking age to 16.

you may as well get the revenue, instead of having people steal it.

We've had a few beer runs late at night, and the perpetrators were most likely under 21.

The station where I work loses money on gas.  It is sick that oil companies make such insane profits while the stores lose money.  It's not right.

Well the demand is on us.  We cannot work, go to school, or to the grocery store without use of a car.  The Oil Companies do have us over a barrel literally!

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 26, 2013, 08:56:33 AM
NJ allows anyone to sell cigs.  You must be 19 to buy them,

This a new law? One of the things I did on my 18th birthday was buy a pack of cigarettes. Not because I wanted to smoke them (and in fact, I gave them to someone who smoked because I didn't actually smoke), but just because "Hey, I'm 18 and I can!" Man, I can't believe how stupid I was...

Quote from: bugo on September 26, 2013, 11:31:15 AM
beer runs

I find it funny that you use this term for shoplifting beer.  when I say "beer run", I mean "hey, someone who's sober, here's 20 bucks, go run down to the store and buy us some beer?  we're running out."

I'd never heard them described as "beer runs" until I started working at this store, so it might be a local thing.

Quote from: Compulov on September 26, 2013, 12:39:02 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 26, 2013, 08:56:33 AM
NJ allows anyone to sell cigs.  You must be 19 to buy them,

This a new law? One of the things I did on my 18th birthday was buy a pack of cigarettes. Not because I wanted to smoke them (and in fact, I gave them to someone who smoked because I didn't actually smoke), but just because "Hey, I'm 18 and I can!" Man, I can't believe how stupid I was...

The law came into effect in the mid 2000s, while i was in high school in fact (class of 2007, held back so i wasn't class of 2006)

We used to use the term "beer run" in college (Charlottesville, VA) in the same sense agentsteel53 cites. I have a fond memory my third year of a beer run to the old IGA store downtown with two of my roommates; none of us had ever been into that store before, none of us ever shopped regularly at any other IGA store, and you couldn't see the beer from the store entrance, yet somehow my roommate Chris managed to make a beeline directly to the beer located back in the far corner somewhere.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 26, 2013, 08:56:33 AM

Quote from: MASTERNC on September 25, 2013, 08:51:22 PM
After doing some digging online, it turns out restricting gas purchases to members is against NJ law, so even non-members can get the much lower warehouse club prices.

This is probably one of the better laws in NJ pertaining to gas, and it had been relatively unknown.  At Sams Club, they don't even need to swipe a card.  Both the Sams Club & BJ's in Deptford have gas, and they generally are about 5c or so cheaper than other stations.  This particular Sams Club is newer and has 5 dual sided pumps; but most of the time they only use 3 of them (a situation that never arises in other states unless the pump is not working).  The BJ's added the fueling pumps well after their store opened (probably a good 10-15 years later), after Sams added theirs.  It's quite common to find lines at both stations, indicating that word is getting around that anyone can purchase gas at the stations.

Good to know about the Deptford location.  It's right off of NJ 42 on the way between AC and Philly.

I was in Vineland coming up from the shore when I ran into BJ's there.

Hess around here does the scan the card before pumping thing, even if you're paying cash, seems it is to prevent people from pumping their own fuel.

Maybe it's jsut me but.  I don't find wholesale cclubs in to be cheaper for gas. 

Quote from: SteveG1988 on September 27, 2013, 05:17:09 PM
Hess around here does the scan the card before pumping thing, even if you're paying cash, seems it is to prevent people from pumping their own fuel.

The card the attendant is swiping is his cash card.  That way the attendant's cash sales are recorded in the computer and managment knows how much should be dropped in the safe from said attendant. 

Quote from: signalman on September 27, 2013, 06:12:59 PM

Quote from: SteveG1988 on September 27, 2013, 05:17:09 PM
Hess around here does the scan the card before pumping thing, even if you're paying cash, seems it is to prevent people from pumping their own fuel.

The card the attendant is swiping is his cash card.  That way the attendant's cash sales are recorded in the computer and managment knows how much should be dropped in the safe from said attendant. 

It says "insert attendant card" or similar on the pump

Are you sure it says "insert attendant card"?  I'm guessing it just says "insert card," which could be a credit card or the attendant's cash card.  Swiping a card initializes a sale and takes the pump off standby.  Self serve pumps that have a card reader on the pump (pay at the pump) work the same way.

Hess requiers an atendent card in NJ

Quote from: signalman on September 28, 2013, 03:12:25 AM
Are you sure it says "insert attendant card"?  I'm guessing it just says "insert card," which could be a credit card or the attendant's cash card.  Swiping a card initializes a sale and takes the pump off standby.  Self serve pumps that have a card reader on the pump (pay at the pump) work the same way.

The machine clearly requires the attendant to insert a card first before the pump can be operated.  The Hess near me requires the same thing for both cash & credit card sales.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 28, 2013, 08:29:54 AM

Quote from: signalman on September 28, 2013, 03:12:25 AM
Are you sure it says "insert attendant card"?  I'm guessing it just says "insert card," which could be a credit card or the attendant's cash card.  Swiping a card initializes a sale and takes the pump off standby.  Self serve pumps that have a card reader on the pump (pay at the pump) work the same way.

The machine clearly requires the attendant to insert a card first before the pump can be operated.  The Hess near me requires the same thing for both cash & credit card sales.

I'd say about 60% of stations in NJ require an attendant card. If you find one of the 40% off hours, there's a chance you can actually fill up on your own credit card, self serve. Just try to duck the security cameras.

Quote from: Steve on September 28, 2013, 12:14:33 PM
I'd say about 60% of stations in NJ require an attendant card. If you find one of the 40% off hours, there's a chance you can actually fill up on your own credit card, self serve. Just try to duck the security cameras.

I haven't seen any other station besides Hess using attendant cards for each fill up. Just about every station locks their pumps when closed though.

Quote from: roadman65 on September 26, 2013, 10:32:01 AM
The Customer is always right is no longer a valid phrase anymore.   Apparently to most business owners think that customers need us more than we need them, especially with gas, because we need gas to go to do almost anything!   However, I have found that phrase to only to be used exclusively by management to employees to follow in any business even though they themselves do not practice it. 

That's because it never was a valid phrase. It does not refer to any individual customer. Instead, it is meant as a warning to sell what customers want to buy, not what you want them to buy. That is, if you sell rafts, and lots of people are asking for blue rafts, you should sell blue rafts, not green ones because you think green looks better. The phrase was never supposed to mean "I want a 50% discount because I think I deserve it and the customer is always right!"

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 28, 2013, 02:52:18 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on September 26, 2013, 10:32:01 AM
The Customer is always right is no longer a valid phrase anymore.   Apparently to most business owners think that customers need us more than we need them, especially with gas, because we need gas to go to do almost anything!   However, I have found that phrase to only to be used exclusively by management to employees to follow in any business even though they themselves do not practice it. 

That's because it never was a valid phrase. It does not refer to any individual customer. Instead, it is meant as a warning to sell what customers want to buy, not what you want them to buy. That is, if you sell rafts, and lots of people are asking for blue rafts, you should sell blue rafts, not green ones because you think green looks better. The phrase was never supposed to mean "I want a 50% discount because I think I deserve it and the customer is always right!"

"Give the lady what she wants."

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 28, 2013, 02:52:18 PM

Quote from: roadman65 on September 26, 2013, 10:32:01 AM
The Customer is always right is no longer a valid phrase anymore.   Apparently to most business owners think that customers need us more than we need them, especially with gas, because we need gas to go to do almost anything!   However, I have found that phrase to only to be used exclusively by management to employees to follow in any business even though they themselves do not practice it. 

That's because it never was a valid phrase. It does not refer to any individual customer. Instead, it is meant as a warning to sell what customers want to buy, not what you want them to buy. That is, if you sell rafts, and lots of people are asking for blue rafts, you should sell blue rafts, not green ones because you think green looks better. The phrase was never supposed to mean "I want a 50% discount because I think I deserve it and the customer is always right!"

Back when I worked a customer service focused job, I always taught my staff "the customer isn't always right, but make them feel like they are".